LabelingDVD's

[Scarpad]

I've been using a Sharpie to Label My disks and I know that's not recommended. I Know they have markers that will not cause problems. But are labels still a no-no ? I recently bought some disks that have no frosted labels or anything so I'm not sure on writing on these at all. Will Paper labels still Screw Up Players or ROM Drives?

[goober22]

I gave up on DVD labels after most would not play until I removed the label. I now use hub labels, small circle labels that just go around the disc hub area. I buy them (white ones) from labelgear.com and use surething to print them. I have no trouble with them.

Hub labels from labelgear-surething (http://www.labelgear.com/LG/Product.asp?ProdCode=20006-21116)

[windtrader]

I have markers called "CD Speed Marker" made by www.smartandfriendly.com. I don't know where I got them, maybe Office Depot or Office Max.

They seem to work fine but who really knows if any of these including Sharpies really are a root cause of failing media or not. I suspect there are many other problems like bad media and poor recording techniques/software that cause far greater read problems.

[MaximRecoil]

Why is using a Sharpie not recommended? On my package of Sanford® Sharpie® Fine Point Permanent Markers, it says:
Marks Most Anything! Including CDs! Recommended by Roxio™ Makers of Easy CD Creator®
On the label for my RICOHJPNR01 DVD+Rs it says:
Use an oil felt-tip pen to write on the title (printed) side of the disc. Do not use pens with hard tips such as ballpoints. Do not write in areas other than the title area nor paste labels on the disc.
I can't imagine how labeling a disc with a Sharpie could possibly affect anything. It is not as though the writing is actually making any contact with the surface that is being read from.

The reason that stick-on labels can cause problems is because they have enough weight to affect the balance of the discs when they are spinning. This of course wouldn't apply to the writing from a marker.

[windtrader]

There are lots of threads debating the concern about Sharpies. Search on Sharpie and you'll get a loadful. Basically, it has to do with the solvent in the ink penetrating down past the polycarbonate outside layer and damaging the recording label.

Personally, I have had my share of discs go bad but I've never suspected it was ink related; I've always felt it was bad media to blame.

[bdiver]

Transparent light weight labels:

http://www.dvdr4less.com/pd/313792.html

[bacid]

Originally posted by bdiver
Transparent light weight labels:

http://www.dvdr4less.com/pd/313792.html

ive used similar labels (clear and VERY thin) on all my dvd's and after over a year they all work properly

[MaximRecoil]

Originally posted by windtrader
There are lots of threads debating the concern about Sharpies. Search on Sharpie and you'll get a loadful. Basically, it has to do with the solvent in the ink penetrating down past the polycarbonate outside layer and damaging the recording label.

Personally, I have had my share of discs go bad but I've never suspected it was ink related; I've always felt it was bad media to blame.
I read the threads that came up from searching for "Sharpie". I'm seeing a lot of speculation with no facts. The thing is, the manufacturers of both Sharpies and my DVD+R media are both giving the thumbs up, in black and white no less. If anyone could prove that the ink from a Sharpie had indeed bled through to the data layer and caused a problem then these companies recommending the use of Sharpies (or oil-based markers in general) could be sued probably. Big companies like Sanford or Ridata aren't likely to set themselves up for future legal problems with recommending things on a whim. They have probably researched it or maybe they simply asked a chemist if the ink from an oil-based marker can seep through .6 mm of polycarbonate.
Polycarbonate is resistant to mineral acids, many organic acids, oxidizing and reducing agents, neutral and acid salt solutions,
many greases, waxes and oils, saturated, aliphatic and cycloaliphatic hydrocarbons and alcohols, with the exception of
methyl alcohol. The resistance of polycarbonate to water may be described as good up to approximately 60 °C. At higher
temperatures, degradation occurs, the extent of which depends on time and temperature. Polycarbonate should therefore
not be exposed for long periods of time to hot water. However, brief contact with hot water has no effect. For example,
polycarbonate tableware can be washed over 1000 times in a dishwashing machine with no adverse effects being observed.

http://www.palram.com/CachedImages/0000001/t009_r00016_v0.PDF
That link has some good charts; anyone know the ingredients in a Sharpie?

Edit: From the "Sharpie Fine Point Permanent Marker" MSDS sheet:
Section Two: Composition

Dyes, n-propanol (71-23-8), n-butanol (71-36-3), diacetone alcohol (123-42-2)

http://www.sharpie.com/sanford/pdfs/Sharpie%20Fine.pdf
For the first two ingredients, the sheet from my first link says this:
Propyl Alcohol (1-Propanol) R (resistant)
Butyl Alcohol (Butanol) R (resistant)
Diacetone alcohol isn't listed there but I did find this:
Diacetone Alcohol OK
That is from http://www.gewater.com/library/tp/945_Memtrex-PC_Polycarbonate.jsp where they are are rating the chemical compatibility of a certain polycarbonate film:
Chemical Compatibility

PCTE membranes were exposed to the following chemicals for 48 hours. If there was no significant change in the bubble point, strength or appearance of the membrane, it was judged compatible with the chemical. If the membrane dissolved, or otherwise lost its strength, or changed significantly in appearance, it was rated incompatible with the liquid. A TEST rating indicates the possibility that the membrane could be useful in some operating conditions.

OK = Recommended NO = Not Recommended TEST = Testing Advised

[windtrader]

I very much like your investigation and the links. Good work. The problem with the linked MSDS is the lack of percentages so it is hard to tell how much of each is in the ink. My guess is the number one ingredient would be the dyes which are listed first.

The GE chemical compatibility sheet lists aniline which is a dye and a "solvent". It says NO for the aniline. So, I'd argue the debate continues.

As to the statement that the markers are now safe for CDs, one possiblity is the marketing department just added "CD safe" to avoid more lost sales to other truely CD safe markers.

Also, I did not search the site for MSDS but it is common for several of them are in the database since they are resubmitted anytime things change. This one is listed 2001, it would be intersting to see if there is a newer and older one to compare.


Amines
Aniline NO Dimethylformamide NO


Aniline (CAS #62-53-3) is a colorless to brown oily liquid with an aromatic, pungent odor. It is used in the manufacturing of resins, varnishes, perfumes, printing inks, cloth marking inks, paint removers, photographic chemicals, explosives, herbicides, fungicides, rigid polyurethanes, optical whitening agents, and shoe blacks. It is used as a solvent, and as a chemical intermediate for rubber processing, accelerators, corrosion inhibitors, dyes and pigments, speciality resins, cyclohexylamine, hydroquinine, pesticides such as alachlor, pharmaceuticals such as sulfonamides, 4-anilinophenol, and methylenediisocyanate. It is a component of lacquers, wood stains, and skin stains. It is an analytical reagent in paper chemistry, and an azeotropic agent in the manufacturing of anhydrous hydrazine. It is used in the synthesis of intermediates for artificial sweeteners and isocyanate; it is also a catalyst and stabilizer in the synthesis of hydrogen peroxide and cellulose.

[MaximRecoil]

I didn't even think about the dyes, but you're right; that needs to be considered. The problem is, I doubt that "aniline" is used in the Sharpies because my Sharpie specifically states "Non-Toxic" on the body of the marker and aniline is toxic to humans according to the EPA (although I suppose it could still be considered "Non-Toxic" as a whole if the concentration was low enough):
Health Hazard Information
Acute Effects:
Acute inhalation exposure to high levels of aniline in humans has resulted in effects on the lung, such as upper respiratory tract irritation and congestion. (1,2)
Aniline has been classified as very toxic in humans, with a probable oral lethal dose in humans at 50 to 500 milligrams per kilogram body weight (mg/kg). (2)
Aniline is considered to have high acute toxicity, based on short-term animal tests in rats. (3)

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/aniline.html
So I guess the question now is, what is the composition of the "dyes" used in a basic Sharpie fine point permanent marker?

[echooff]

I have been using sharpies for over 2 years without any problems. I always write aroung the outside edges. Who knows what more time will bring.