Sigma chip-set Information - High Def

[SeeMoreDigital]

The idea behind this thread is to compile a list of all the stand-alone players known to use high-def/res Sigma chip-sets.

As you can see there's hardly any information here at all. But with your help... hopefully things will improve...

Please note:
The information listed below identifies the known "maximum" capabilities of the chip-set and has been compiled from various sources. It therefore does not necessarily mean that your player will be able to support all of them.

Here is what is known so far: -


SIGMA EM862xL CHIP-SET RANGE

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Products/EM8620L/images/EM8620L_series_A.jpg

Web site link: http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/em8620Lseries.htm


EM8620L Networked DVD Player Development Kit

Web site link: http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/DVD8620LNET.htm


Basic (Non MPEG-2/DVD) Player Functionality
Supports: -
Video Decs: MPEG-4 with B-VOP (with/without packed bit-stream), 1 warp-point GMC, Qpel
Video Decs: WMV9 (Windows Media® Video 9)
Audio Decs: MP3 (MPEG-1/2 Layers 1, 2 and 3), AC3 (Dolby® Digital)
MPEG-2 (BC multi-channel Layers 1, 2 and 3), AAC-LC (MPEG-2/4), WAV
Audio Decs: WMA9 (Windows Media® Audio 9), WMA9 Pro.
Containers: AVI and MP4 (Audio: MP3, M4A, WAV, AC3 and WMA)
Various: PAR/DAR signalling MPEG-4 within .AVI and .MP4 container.

Does not support: -
Video Decs: 3 warp-point GMC

* Based on using the DivX codec. Confirmation with other codecs is required.


Players/Model Numbers using this Chip-Set
Look here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=646040#post646040)
Players/Devices using Sigma's EM8620L Chip-set
Look here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=646040#post646040)


Cheers

[AllTimeSToneD]

Here's another one.

http://www.iodata.com/usa/products/products.php?cat=HNP&sc=AVEL&pId=AVLP2%2FDVDLA

and guess what

http://www.iodata.com/images/avlp2_rear_port.jpg

[SeeMoreDigital]

From the information provided by IO DATA. At least we now know that an HD Mpeg4 encoded stream tops out with an pixel frame size of 1280x720.

However, there does not seem to be any information regarding maximum Mpeg1/2 or WMV9 pixel frame sizes.

There also appears to be some conflicting info. The IO DATA spec sheet it gives the following information: -

http://img50.exs.cx/img50/4201/02_AVI_Specification.gif

Note that Mpeg4 (DivX and XviD) bitrate speeds are limited to just 1.5Mbps (1536Kbps). This is far too low for high-def (1280x720) content, which requires a min of 3000-3500Kbps.

Also, the 2GB AVI file limitation is still there!

And if my eyes deceive me... there's no mention of MP4 container support. Plus the DVI output and 6Ch analogue audio outputs have been removed :confused:


Cheers

[Soulhunter]

What, 1280x720 @ 1.5Mbps and 2GB limitation ???

If this is true, its imo a unusable piece of crap... :sly:


Bye

[castellanos]

Agree! I don't see any good improvement on that chipset. :angry:

[LordRPI]

Hey, just so you guys know... I've seen DivX HD certified players play at bitrates much higher than that. I'm going to check up on this because it doesn't seem completely kosher.

[LordRPI]

Sorry for the double post.

We tested at least 8Mbps DivX HD and have had no problems at all; We require that SD players are able to play back files at 4Mbps.

We're working with IO-Data to clarify this.

[Soulhunter]

Sounds better, nevertheless it should support UDF/4GB+ content !!!

-> And does 8Mbps mean "short peaks" or "static bitrate" ???

[LordRPI]

Average bitrate.

We've had no problems playing back DivX HD trailers have around 4Mbps average bitrate, and has a peak of 30Mbps over three seconds.

Don't worry, I've seen these in action. They're pretty sweet :)

[Soulhunter]

Hmm, 8Mbps static bitrate sounds damn good... :)


Remains:

- No UDF support

- The 2GB limitation

- Whats with mp4 support...

- Does it support HE-AAC ???

- Only 192kbps for audio streams... :scared:


EDIT: Hey, you have changed 8Mbps into 4Mbps !?!

Some of my 1024x576 encodes are "slightly" over 4000kbps... :(


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

I agree with you Soulhunter,

It's pretty piss poor... lets hope it's just a big typo!


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

There also appears to be a "wireless" version of the IO DATA player - the: I-O DATA AVLP2/DVDG.

And this one contains an DVI output connector: -

http://img30.exs.cx/img30/808/IO_DATA_wireless_player_rear.jpg


Cheers

[manono]

Here's some more information on the I/O Data player(s). I asked them some questions a while back and got an e-mail reply today:

We are planning to release the English one (AVLP2/DVDLA) in Nov 2004
(USA/Canada) by below USD249.00 as MSPR. For EU market, we are
planning to release it after USA/Canada/Korea.

> Where will I be able to buy it? Only directly through you,
You can buy it from our web site.

> perhaps also in stores, such as Best Buy or Circuit City?
Also you can do at these retail shops.

> Related to that, will it be region-free, or can it be made region-free?
Sorry... Our USA version is "1" fixed.
> And will it be able to play both NTSC and PAL DVDs?
Our EU version can support it, but not USA one.

> Will it have external subtitle support for MPEG-4? And if so, for what formats? SRT only?
Sure. We checked SRT and DivX Subtitle. If you want more information,
please let me know what file you are interesting.

> And the information isn't clear on this.
> I think it will support XviD and DivX, but will it also support DivX 3.11?

XViD is supported.
DivX3.11, 4, 5, and HD are supported.

> If you are interested in promoting the Linkplayer2,

Yes, I'm interesting. If you need more infromation, please don't
hesitate to ask me. Well, now too early, but after I update any, let you
know absolutely. We'll appreciate you will keep in touch with I-O DATA.
Thank you so much.
1. I wonder why the US version won't be region free with the ability to play PAL DVDs, since this ability is built into the chipset.

2. Anyone know what a DivX subtitle is? idx/sub?

3. Where he quoted the first part of a longer paragraph from me, "> If you are interested in promoting the Linkplayer2,", I was inviting him to come to this forum to provide information and to field questions. I couldn't make much sense of his reply, though. But he seemed a friendly enough chap. Maybe I'll try again. Or maybe some others interested in the player can drop them an e-mail.

[Wilbert]

> Will it have external subtitle support for MPEG-4? And if so, for what formats? SRT only?
Sure. We checked SRT and DivX Subtitle. If you want more information,
please let me know what file you are interesting.
I see something very interesting. Subtitle support :cool: I guess this will be the first one with subtitle support!

Perhaps you can ask those guys the following:

0) What's DivX Subtitle?

1) Does it support OpenDML avi (avi>2gig / as questioned here)? (I guess not)

2) Does it support AVI + AC3? (I guess not)

3) Does it support AVI + AAC? (I guess not)

4) Does it support MPEG2 + AAC? (I guess so)

5) Does it support OGM (DivX/XviD with 5.1 ogg)? (I guess so)

6) Does it support OGM (DivX/XviD with 5.1 AAC)? (I guess so)

7) Does it support OGM (DivX/XviD with 5.1 ogg/AAC and srt)? (I guess so)


I have to admit that the spec sheet SMD posted is very clear :confused:

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Wilbert
...I have to admit that the spec sheet SMD posted is very clear :confused: Yes, the information is very disappointing!

You would think by now the manufacturers could present their player specifications in a more detailed and user friendly way!

This thing about "so called" DivX subtitles, has also appeared in some Philips DVP6xx player documentation: -

http://img95.exs.cx/img95/8605/Philips_Subs_Instructions.png

Maybe those kindly people over at DivX have "offered" to put their name to all .sub, .srt and .smi subtitle formats... You know, to avoid confusion ;)


Cheers

[Karyudo]

I have contacts in Japan (family and friends) that could almost certainly secure some Japanese-spec AVLP1 and AVLP2 players. Reading the Japanese page, it seems to suggest the Japanese version can be made region-free (?). The AVLP2 also features wireless LAN capabilities.

Anyone (besides me) interested?

No, I wouldn't be price gouging, but yes, it would cost somewhat more than waiting around for IOData US or EU to get stock in (shipping ain't cheap).

Just an idea...

[Wilbert]

@SMD and others,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=459759&pagenumber=4

scroll down to my post. Could anyone of you provide TUFU (who has the player) a bunch of samples? I don't have much time to do it myself ...

[SeeMoreDigital]

I'll see what I can do!


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Just to let you guys know, I've just made some high-def "Test Cards" files available.

Here's a copy of what I posted on the AVS forum: - Hello everyone,

As promised I have managed to generate some high-def "Test Cards" for you to try.

This first batch of 3No files are as follows: -

1280x720 PAL Mpeg4 + 6Ch AC3 in AVI
1280x720 PAL Mpeg4 + 6Ch AAC in AVI
1280x720 PAL Mpeg4 + 6Ch AAC in MP4

All of which can be downloaded here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/1280x720_Mpeg4_ Encodes.zip).
Cheers

[Wilbert]

Great work! (Only the first one '1280x720 PAL Mpeg4 + 6Ch AC3 in AVI' is working ...)

AAC is LC? Please, don't forget the OGM/srt and OGM/ogg5.1 :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Wilbert
AAC is LC? Please, don't forget the OGM/srt and OGM/ogg5.1 :) Yes... the 6 channel AAC stream is LC :)

I find it strange it does not work. Because even with my old Sigma chip-set (which is 2Ch only), 6Ch AAC-LC streams play, but are obviously, not correctly mapped....

Anyway, I'll provide files with 2Ch AAC-LC audio. Hopefully they'll work... But if it turns out that player doesn't spin MP4... there's no way I'll buy one!

With regard to muxing stuff into OGM, I'm afraid it's over to somebody else for this implementation!


Cheers

[Wilbert]

@SMD,

About XviD+AAC+Subs.mp4 ...

What do I need to install to see the subs (playing with WMP6.4) (of course I have DVobSub installed)?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sorry for the delay Wilbert, I don't know how I managed to miss your post.

As far as I'm aware, only Nero's Showtime player can display the subtitles.... But maybe bond knows of a way around this


Cheers

[Wilbert]

@SMD,

Thanks!

Btw, it doesn't seem to play my clip with subs 'SMD(avi_ac3 with sub)'.

Do you have other suggestions about a clip with subs (or any idea how subs are supported)? I will send him a few ogm files tonight, but I don't have any hope that it can play ogm+srt.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Wilbert,

I really don't do much with subtitles... but I know bond has been experimenting with different implementations.


Cheers

[Wilbert]

Regarding subs:

http://forums.divx.com/viewtopic.php?topic=61648&forum=21


I just contacted IO Data today, and they still doesn't have solution for file mode subtitles, neither for AVLP1 nor AVLP2.
Therefore, in the AVLP2 manual and in the new firmware 05-65-040409-01-IOD-108-000 for AVLP1 description on IOData website, says that sound and subtitle switching for DIVX is now supported.
They told me that it is supported but not ready and possible, as long as the DIVX specification doesn't support it.
So we have to wait until the subtitle standard is included on the DIVX specification.
Pretty vague :)

I take it they are talking about internal subs here (subtitle support is the job of the container, not the codec ..., so I don't understand what this has to do with the DIVX specification). I will mux some with avimux and report back ...

[Doom9]

btw, there's an online shop link on io-data's site but I don't even get to the price info. How much is the player actually and is it orderable on the US online shop (http://shop.iodata.com/shopping/products.php?cat=HNP&sc=AVEL&pId=AVLP2%2FDVDLA)?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Doom9
btw, there's an online shop link on io-data's site but I don't even get to the price info. How much is the player actually and is it orderable on the US online shop (http://shop.iodata.com/shopping/products.php?cat=HNP&sc=AVEL&pId=AVLP2%2FDVDLA)? A few AVS forum members living in the US have managed to get hold of the AVLP2/FDVDLA player.

Personally though, I would wait for AVLP2/DVDG, or which ever referenced player is released with an DVI output.


Cheers

[Doom9]

well.. what's a DVI output good for unless you have a TV screen with a corresponding input, or a projector. I have neither, and I don't particularly feel the need to connect a standalone player to my PC screen.. my PC is much more capable at feeding the display with movie content. What's the price for the unit? I'm considering getting one.. I could use a 2nd DivX capable standalone in this household.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've just sent a PM to a guy over on the AVS forum called Tom Roper (from Denver), who's just received one of these players.

Hopefully, he'll get back to me with the information you need.

In the meantime here's the post he made regarding his purchase: -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4597521#post4597521


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Tom has reported back... The price is: $249 U.S. dollars


Cheers

[Doom9]

thanks. that's the price written in the FAQ which I found earlier today.

I came up with a reason for the DVI: in order to get a quality impression, my PC flatscreen with a native resolution of 1920x1200 would be quite ideal.. but until we get HDTV sets here in Europe I'm pretty sure players will be able to handle H.264 as well..

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Doom9
I came up with a reason for the DVI: in order to get a quality impression, my PC flatscreen with a native resolution of 1920x1200 would be quite ideal.. but until we get HDTV sets here in Europe I'm pretty sure players will be able to handle H.264 as well.. 1920x1200.. that's high :)

As far as I'm aware there is only one 1920x1080 high-def TV display available over here in Euroland. It's made by Sharp and is in their Titanium Aquos range of LCD screens. Top of the range is the 45" LC-45G1E (http://www.lcd4u.nl/item1382.htm).

It's spec looks bloody good. But at around £6,500 it should.

A few months ago I wrote about the Hitachi Platara range of high-def plasma panels (1024x1024). And late last month I managed to get my hands on one for a couple of weeks...

It was very, very good screen indeed. Even when used for displaying every day computer graphics (not tested with games). And at around £2,300 it represents good value for money... Well for this month anyway ;)


Cheers

[LordRPI]

RE High Res Displays: http://www.apple.com/displays/
2560 x 1600 optimal resolution
I think you can get these in the EU
But you need 2 DVI connections to satisfy the beast...

/mac zealot mode


I'm really interested in testing out this player myself. The buy link for it is blocked out unless you have a US IP, and somehow it catches my local 192.168... IP and tells me that the site is available to the US only.

Edit: DDL

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've read/seen these displays... and although the quality of the displayed image is truly incredible.... the largest display (currently 30") just scrapes into "family" viewing adequacy ;)

When it comes to displaying video. I like to spend my money on equipment that is a little more justifiable and flexible!

They look very cool though, just like most Apple gear.


Cheers

[LordRPI]

Yeah, hehe, I was in San Francisco for the launch at Apple's World Wide Developer's conference... where they unveiled their H.264 codec too. I'd consider buying a 30" if I had the money, but having to buy a special graphics card to display it surely doesn't help the price. Last time I used one, I got lost looking at an excel spreadsheet :eek:

[Doom9]

if it weren't for the high pricetag and the limited selection of GFX cards that go with it, I'd have gotten that display a long time ago. Hopefully, dual link DVI will soon become the standard.

[Shinigami-Sama]

the cards are coming out :D:D
pci-x
dual pci-x mobo are out
and they;re getting cheper :D:D
hazaa!
the wonders of techonology

[trbarry]

Maybe a bit late to the discussion but my linkplayer did arrive last night.

I played a couple of my standard Xvid/ac3 encodings over the (wired only) lan, including one at 720p though I didn't check the bit rate. But they worked fine. I haven't tried any WMV9 or DVD's yet

I'm still having some trouble trying to download the firmware update.

More later.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

That's great new Tom...

I'm sure some of us on this forum will keep you busy with our "test requests" :)


Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

I'm sure some of us on this forum will keep you busy with our "test requests" :)

Would like to know if it plays my "1024x576 + Soulhunters v3 @ Q2 + 1/1/1 B-VOPs" encodes... :D


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Would like to know if it plays my "1024x576 + Soulhunters v3 @ Q2 + 1/1/1 B-VOPs" encodes... :D Well...

I know for a fact that 1024x576 Mpeg4 SP encodes with 2Ch MP3 and 6Ch AC3 audio in AVI, work. So do 1024x576 Mpeg4 SP encodes with 2Ch AAC-LC audio in MP4 :)

As far as I know, Mpeg4 ASP encodes have not been tested.... so bring it on I say...

...As long as Tom is up for it, of course ;)


Cheers

[trbarry]

Would like to know if it plays my "1024x576 + Soulhunters v3 @ Q2 + 1/1/1 B-VOPs" encodes...

Dunno, but I'd be willing to try it. Is that one of the test samples posted above somewhere?

But I can at least say that the player doesn't seem to need any standard resolutions or anything. It was fine on a 960x528 Noir ep with ac3 I tried. I use that 1/4 rez HD resolution a lot for 1080i material that doesn't have enough detail to justify more.

The q2 I can't guarantee. I've been encoding most HDTV clips in Xvid CBR for the last couple years just so I wouldn't have to deal with CPU problems on peak bit rate surges, playing on computer. But that means I (knock wood) expect most of my own encodings to hopefully work on this player.

I'm at work now anyway but the first thing I have to deal with before testing the player limitations is to get around the problem of the firmware download. There is probably some parm in my cable gateway that's allowing the linkplayer to talk to my PC's but not the Internet.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by trbarry
...But I can at least say that the player doesn't seem to need any standard resolutions or anything. It was fine on a 960x528 Noir ep with ac3 I tried. I use that 1/4 rez HD resolution a lot for 1080i material that doesn't have enough detail to justify more. Yes... in this regard the I-O DATA player, or should I say, the Sigma EM8620L chip-set, reacts in much the same way as my Xcard.... Nice ;)


Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by trbarry

Dunno, but I'd be willing to try it. Is that one of the test samples posted above somewhere?


Sorry, unfortunately I have no place to upload such a big file... :(

But the CQM is in my sign if you're willing to encode a trailer or so !?!


Tia n' Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Sorry, unfortunately I have no place to upload such a big file... :( You could offer to burn some examples to CD~R and post them to him!


Cheers

[jntaylor63]

This looks like a great player, but can someone confirm:

This player can play AVI files up to 4 gigs?

Can it play UDF Data DVD-R's?

Thanks guys. This looks like the best player untill the HD-DVD / BluRay war shakes out a winner

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

You could offer to burn some examples to CD~R and post them to him!


Nah, the MPAA could X-ray the box n' accuse me... :D

Seriously, how much does shipping to the USA cost ???


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
...Seriously, how much does shipping to the USA cost ??? From the UK, it costs £1.31 to "Air Mail" a 100g package to the USA and approx 18p for every additional 20g there-after...

... I think that's quite good, when all said and done :)


Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Well, thats cheaper than I thought... :)

Gonna drop trbarry a pm then !!!


Bye

[trbarry]

So far I haven't tried and CQM or any custom Xvid encodings at all for this player. But I have been playing with it all afternoon.

It plays most, but not all, of my previous Xvid DVD-R's I've made. These are mostly either 720p or 540(+/-)p 1 pass CBR, no b-frames, qpel, or CQM. Bit rates were mostly in the 3-5 mbps range, with the original ac3 audio track. I've pretty much stuck to that formula for compatibility and ease of playing on slower machines. And I use a av receiver for audio decoding.

I only had one disc that I couldn't play. That one lock up the player so I had to power it off. But it played in my HTPC.

The big negative about this player with Xvid so far is that it cannot FF, skip, or reverse. I can hit the >> button until the cows come home and it will cycle thru ff1-ff4, never really going anywhere. That would probably be a show stopper for using this with Xvid if I didn't know it was easily firmware upgradeable.

I also played a couple of transport streams over the network. But to do this I had to rename them to .mpg, and the sound was torqued thru my receiver. But the decoded analog audio sounded more or less okay. Anyway, I won't be likely using it for transport streams yet either. They are supposed to have 'official' support for transport streams sometime after the first of the year.

I also played a couple of the MSFT WM9 downloadable trailers from the web. The player could play and even FF through the Amazing Caves and Coral Reef Adventure just fine. But with no audio. :(

Apparently someone has run off with my Coral Reefs DVD or I've misplaced it so I couldn't test that one.

I'm tired of playing with this thing now but I'll test more later to see what sort of other Xvid limitations may exist. I particularly want to see at what bit rate it starts having problems since the web only documents Xvid up to 1.5 mbps, which would make it be worthless to me. But I've alread played much more than that except for the FF limitations.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Tom,

Did you manage to upgrade your players firmware?


Cheers

[trbarry]

CmoreD -

Yeah, I updated. It may have been something I did to the gateway but more likely the previous Japenese message was just saying "no update needed". When one became available yesterday it also (I think) changed the message to English.
(possibly that's all it did ;) )

But it works now.

- Tom

[LordRPI]

Originally posted by trbarry
I particularly want to see at what bit rate it starts having problems since the web only documents Xvid up to 1.5 mbps, which would make it be worthless to me. But I've alread played much more than that except for the FF limitations.


From the testing in the office, we know we can go well beyond 1.5 Mbps with DivX. I'm actually asking around the office to get a test unit of these, but they're in big demand here :)

I might as well just buy one though. It's going to be a hot topic unil there's a whole line of competing products.

[trbarry]

I have not done any more Xvid (or WM9) testing yet. But yesterday I did watch a couple of ripped DVD's over the network with no problems.

I still intend to take maybe a 10 minute sequence of some movie and compress it with progressively higher bit rates and difficult options to see where the stress points are.

My previous opinion was that adding either b-frames or 1/4 pel would add maybe 10-15% extra dificulty for the player at the same bit rates. But it's been a long time since I tested those and I'll redo it all for the Linkplayer2.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

There seems to some good news regarding the Sigma's EM8620L chip-set...

Over on the AVS forum, a guy going by the name of Kermee has confirmed that high-def Mpeg4 streams can be encoded and played back at well 1.5Mbps...

Kermee wrote: - I made a 9 minute 38 second XviD clip of the AVeL LinkPlayer2 in action from start-up and streaming from the AVeL Link Server with various media types and shows some of the screens for navigation of the player.

It demonstrates:

1. Playback of a sample 1280x720p DivX-HD (5.0.3) encode of HDNet 2002 Hawaiian Tropics I made. And how FF (Fast-Forward) works in it. Audio is AC3 interleaved into AVI container. Average video bitrate is 6 Mbps. (Two-pass VBR encode).

2. Playback of a sample 1440x1080p anamorphic PAR flagged XviD-HD (1.0.2) encode of Matrix Reloaded I made. (Source was 1080i/29.97 telecined to 1080p/23.976). Audio is AC3 interleaved into AVI container. Average video bitrate is 8 Mbps (Two-pass VBR encode).

3. Playback of the Magic of Flight 1440x1080p anamorphic flagged WMV9-HD sample from Microsoft. Notice there's no audio. That's because the audio is WMA Pro.

4. Playback of the Shark Tale 1280x720p DivX-HD trailer available from www.divx.com.

5. Playback of 1280x720p XviD-HD (1.0.2) encode of The Incredibes movie trailer played on INHD. Source was 1080i transport stream. Interleaved AC3 in AVI container. Average video bitrate is 6 Mbps (Two-pass VBR encode).What I find very interesting is that the chip-set seems to be able to support Mpeg4 streams containing far more than 1280x720 (921,600 total) pixels (Sigma's official stated limit). Indeed, it appears Kermee has been successful at encoding and playing back Mpeg4 streams containing 1440x1080 (1,555,200 total) pixels :D

If anybody here can confirm the same?


Cheers

[trbarry]

If anybody here can confirm the same?


I'll try to make one over the weekend along with finishing up my other testing if no one else has already done so.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Thanks Tom... I knew I could count on you!

Sadly, I reckon you must be the only forum member with one of these players!


Cheers

[trbarry]

Sadly, I reckon you must be the only forum member with one of these players!

Oops. I hadn't realized that. I've only been tinkering with mine as I happened to have some extra time, not often.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

It sounds like another stand-alone player is about to be launched based around Sigma's EM8620L chip-set.

An Australian company called Zensonic, has just announced it's intension to release the Z500 (which reminds me of an motorcycle I once had). Anyway, more information can be found here: -

http://www.zensonic.com/press_z500.php


Cheers

[trbarry]

Well, I played around a bit more today and maybe I'm just doing something stupid but I don't think I can recommend this player for Xvid. Not yet anyway.

I made a few 5 minute Spiderman CBR clips at varying bit rates with no 1/4 pel or b-frames to see if I could find out what the bit rate max really was. I used the MPEG quant, which was a bad idea. All the clips hung the player such that I needed to push the off button on the front to reset it.

Curiously a "1024x576 + Soulhunters v3 @ Q2 + 1/1/1 B-VOPs" seemed to play just fine, including FF, pause, rewind.

But after FF or rewind I could often lose the audio or have it become very choppy through my AV receiver. The sound was still fine on the stereo analog outputs.

I then made a 6 mbps CBR as above but with H263 quants. That one also worked except for the FF audio problems.

BTW, sometimes FF would cause FF1 to appear on the screen but not otherwise seem to go anywhere. Then the next time it would work.

There is probably some set of good Xvid options that would work but I'll probably wait for another firmware release before relying on any of them or regularly using this player for Xvid playback much with other clips. Though I'm still intending to keep the box.

Testing above was all done thru the network, defining a 2nd server. I haven't bothered to burn any test DVDR's with this material.

I've been using Koepi's 10-30-2004 Xvid 1.1 build for these tests.

Later on I think I'll try some WM9 VCM/ac3 on the same clip and see if that works any better.

- Tom

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by trbarry

Curiously a "1024x576 + Soulhunters v3 @ Q2 + 1/1/1 B-VOPs" seemed to play just fine...

Big thanks for ya investigation... :)

Good to know this player eats my encodes !!!


Bye

[trbarry]

Yep. Mine too, except for the FF ac3 audio issues. Hope they fix that soon.

But as I mentioned a few days ago I sampled maybe a dozen Xvid HD DVD-R's I'd made and it played all but one of them.

BTW, I was surprised it handled custom quants. I hope I didn't screw something up there.

Also, I'm still testing but have not yet run into anything resembling a max bit rate, at least for my simple CBR encodes. So I don't know what's up with that silly 1.5 mbps Xvid limit claimed on the web site.

It still scares me though. :scared:

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by trbarry
BTW, I was surprised it handled custom quants. I hope I didn't screw something up there. I must admit I'm not..... As my Sigma Xcard has been able to play just about every custom matrix I've ever thrown into it!

That said however, it hates any type of XviD encode that's been encoded with B-VOP. Which is a real bummer!


Cheers

[trbarry]

A couple of further data points here.

An Xvid CBR with 1 bframe & 1/4 at 8.5 mbps consistantly froze the system as above. However as I was typing this I remembered I had just turned on packed bitstream for another test. So I'll redo it.

A VM9 VCM 8.5 mbps test with ac3 played fine with no green squares others have reported. But like other tests sometimes FF and RW either did not work or led to choppy ac3 audio. Also it looked a bit softer then I'd expected. Maybe my eyes are just getting tired here.

Finally, the remote is very sluggish when getting things from the server. Sometimes keystrokes are stacked up, making me play unintended files and not the ones I'm trying to select. Since I've created so many 'Xvids of Doom' in that folder it means I keep resetting the box. Partially user error.

Also (maybe correctly) if I FF or RW past the begin or end of a file it goes to the next one. But again with deadly files in the folder that means the power switch.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Tom,

Jeez I really hope Sigma hasn't ignored the XviD B-VOP problem. This has been a big issue for Sigma Xcard owners for a couple of years now!

There was a time when only "DivX" files encoded with B-VOP worked with the Xcard. However, since the launch of DivX5.1.x (with its "adaptive B-VOP" implementation), Xcard users have found that such encodes don't play correctly either!

In fact, the only Mpeg4 codec that's able to generate B-VOP encodes that work with the Xcard is NeroDigital's Recode2!


Cheers

[trbarry]

There was a time when only "DivX" files encoded with B-VOP worked with the Xcard. However, since the launch of DivX5.1.x (with its "adaptive B-VOP" implementation), Xcard users have found that such encodes don't play correctly either!

SMD -

I don't have an xcard and have not followed the gossip on them. Are you telling me that Sigma/Xcard chips still can't play Xvid files with b-vops?

What b-vop parms should I use to test this? 1 bvop? Ratios? Packed? Closed Gov?

Is there any combo known to work (better)?

Luckily most of my own encodings don't have either bvop or qpel since I was avoiding the play overhead for a slower machine and usually have lots of space on a dvdr. But this is just too picky and I'd hoped to losen that up a bit as I go back to just using increasinly cheaper USB drives hung on my server.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by trbarry
I don't have an xcard and have not followed the gossip on them. Are you telling me that Sigma/Xcard chips still can't play Xvid files with b-vops?That's correct!

The encodes play but are unwatchable, due to dropped frames and severe video rolling at the bottom of the video frame!

Originally posted by trbarry
What b-vop parms should I use to test this? 1 bvop? Ratios? Packed? Closed Gov?

Is there any combo known to work (better)??I really don't know when it comes to the EM8620L this chip-set. All I really know about, are the problems associated with the Xcard's EM8475 chip-set!

I wonder whether Sigma EM8500/8550 chip-set player users (ie: Elta 8882, Hiteker 920, Kiss DP-450, DP-470, DP-500, DP-1000, DP-1500, LiteOn LVD2001, Scott 842, TransGear DVX-500e, Yamakawa 365, 375, etc), can comment on their XviD B-VOP experiences?

Originally posted by trbarry
Luckily most of my own encodings don't have either bvop or qpel since I was avoiding the play overhead for a slower machine and usually have lots of space on a dvdr. But this is just too picky and I'd hoped to losen that up a bit as I go back to just using increasinly cheaper USB drives hung on my server. Most of my encodes don't contain B-VOP or Qpel either... they're just straight forward "simple profile" affairs generated using XviD. In fact, I think it's fair to say my XviD SP encodes look better than my DivX encodes with B-VOP. I've also found, encodes generated using Recode2 are giving DivX a run for their money!


Cheers

[manono]

My only experience is with the first generation Sigma Designs chipset.

I've tested a number of Custom Quant Matrices, and almost all have worked OK, including several of Soulhunter's. In fact, the only one that gave me any problems at all was the Fox Networks one, and it put green blotches on the video from time to time. Sigma's are the best of all the chipsets about playing CQM, I think.

I've used 1 and 2 B-Frames with no problems at all.

Where I've had problems is with AC3 muxed with different settings. I've had the best luck with Nandub's 96/96. Using VDub's standard settings resulted in jerky play from time to time. And Packed Bitstream was also a no-no. It played very badly. I don't use QPel or GMC, but then, they didn't work with the first-gen Sigma chipsets anyway.

I find it hard to believe that Sigma has gone backwards in regards to what it can play well. But you never know how well I-O Data has implemented the chipset.

So, Tom, if I were you, I'd make sure that Packed Bitstream is off. And maybe generate your test encodes without any audio at all, in order to rule that out as a stumbling block. But as far as I know, any B-Frame settings within reason should work well. I usually use 1/1/1, but the default 2/1.5/1 should also work well. All had Closed GOV.

[trbarry]

I was about to give up on this thing for playing Xvid since there seems to be no consistancy it what I can play or not. For instance I can encode the 5 minute clip a 6 mbps and have it work but use the same parms to encode it at 3 mbps and have it fail.

But I notice that on my new Xp installation I have a new Vdubmod which has defaulted again to interlacing ac3 every frame. I'll fiddle with that a bit and see if it helps.

But for my HD caps I insist on using ac3 throuh my receiver. That's the only way I can get 5.1 audio.

It sure is funny though that I can play so many of my old encoding but so few of the new ones. I previously tested more on the DVDR's I had lying around and now I'm just testing network play so I wonder if that's the difference.

- Tom

[trbarry]

No luck. I followed Manono's suggestion and both played with the interleave factors and even trimmed audio completely out of the 3 mbps no-b no-q clip and it still fails.

It occurs to me that on my new Xp installion I don't even have a working DVDR writer soft. From the last time I tried this (b4 going back to Win/Me) I remember my PrassiDVD won't work here. But that means I can't easily burn these to a DVDR.

Is there a good free soft I can download that will easily burn data discs? If not I think I have a demo copy of Nero somewhere in a box that came with my burner but I have no idea where it is after my last move.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by trbarry
No luck. I followed Manono's suggestion and both played with the interleave factors and even trimmed audio completely out of the 3 mbps no-b no-q clip and it still fails. This doesn't sound like very good news. There's no apparent logical reason why "simple profile" XviD encodes should not to work!

I can't help you with DVD burning software... My Nero software came bundled with my current BTC burner!


Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by trbarry

Is there a good free soft I can download that will easily burn data discs?

Maybe try this... (http://www.cdburnerxp.se/) ;)


Bye

[trbarry]

Thanks. The burner software worked fine. I'd never heard of CDBurnerXP before.

On the good side the Linkplayer could read the DVD. On the bad side all the errors were identical to what I posted above.

Here's a stupid question for most anyone. I've never paid attention to or set profile levels in Xvid. Anyone know if there is some requirement for that here?

Otherwise I might try rolling back to a previous version just to see what shakes out.

- Tom

[Soulhunter]

Afaik XviD's profile settings only block the "not level conform" options...

But I guess this player dont follows the MPEG4 profile/level restrictions !?!


Bye

[trbarry]

Until future developments I'm not going to rely on the Linkplayer2 as a hardware HD Xvid player.

Possibly I'll play around a bit more after the next firmware update of if I get any great ideas for Xvid parm changes. But in the mean time I'm just going to continue archiving in my simple to play CBR format and software playback, though I might try a couple in WM9.

I'll post if the situation changes significantly but for now I don't recommend the darn thing.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

With regard to the I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2, here's another AVS forum link detailing some FAQ's: -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4871140


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

It looks like new firmware has been released for you I-O DATA AVEL LINKPLAYER2 owners living in the US:

Date: December 29, 2004
The latest Verion: 04-33-041227-01-IOD-234-000
[ Bug Fix ]
- WMA noise problem fixed
[ Codec Support ]
- AVI2.0 (Over 2GB)
- DivX® HD Movie (Full version)
- MPEG2-TS (Standard Spec: Packet Size 188 Bytes)
[ Additional Functions ]
- UDF Format Support for DVD/CD media
- CD-ROM Update Function
- Add the "Drive Speed" menu to change drive spin speed
- Add "Square Pixel" mode on video zoom menu for a adjustment of AVI aspect ratio
[ Notice ]
- For LinkServer users, it needs to be updated for MPEG2-TS playback
- For Advanced Server users, it has not had 100% compatibility for the latest firmware


http://www.iodata.com/news/culture.php?ts=21&tsc=24&newsID=56

Cheers

[trbarry]

Well, some more interesting things to play with. ;)

Maybe with the new firmware I can get Xvid 720p working now. Anyway, I should have some more time to play with it this weekend.

Anybody know what that advanced server does? It looks like it demuxes and/or decodes some things in software and then sends it to the player. But in what form? Raw? Recoded?

One of my servers is fairly slow and I've hesitated to put up the advanced server software on it since it wouldn't have the power to be processing HD resolutions in pure software anyway.

- Tom

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by trbarry
Anybody know what that advanced server does? It looks like it demuxes and/or decodes some things in software and then sends it to the player. But in what form? Raw? Recoded? To be honest I don't know.... and I can't think why such software needs to be so "advanced"!

A 100Mbps network connection seems to be the norm these days, which should be fast enough to cope with most content. I have an old PC which I connect to my network from time to time. It has loads of old media files on it... I've never had any problems getting my main PC/Xcard to see them and play them!

That said, I'm now favouring the idea of storing media files on large capacity hard-drives connected via USB2.0 and/or FireWire.... Shame, that this player does not offer both connections :(


Cheers

[trbarry]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
[B]To be honest I don't know.... and I can't think why such software needs to be so "advanced"!

A 100Mbps network connection seems to be the norm these days, which should be fast enough to cope with most content. I have an old PC which I connect to my network from time to time. It has loads of old media files on it... I've never had any problems getting my main PC/Xcard to see them and play them!

Well, a 100 mbps connection probably only gets half that on the average. And if the decoding was taking place on the server and sent as 8 bit RGB that would be a problem since even a 720x480x24 movie would take about 199 mbps if not compressed. And HD would be hard even at a gig in that format, though almost possible in 4:2:0 I guess.


That said, I'm now favouring the idea of storing media files on large capacity hard-drives connected via USB2.0 and/or FireWire.... Shame, that this player does not offer both connections :(

I've just been buying 120 GB USB drives at my local Sam's club recently and hanging them on my server as needed. But that's sort of an interim solution.

- Tom

[trbarry]

I loaned my player to a friend for awhile and it was only today when I found some time to hook it up again and play with it a bit more.

This may merit a second look now. I downloaded the new firmware and it now plays all the Spiderman Xvid test clips that I was previously complaining about above, including up to at least 8 mbps 720p. Maybe it's just having a good day.

I still seem to have some issues with playing transport streams directly though if I strip one with HDTV2MPEG2 it seems to work.

- Tom

[Custom_VCD]

Does this player play, the new Nero AVC mpeg-4 by chance?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Custom_VCD
Does this player play, the new Nero AVC mpeg-4 by chance? I'm afraid not.

Currently, there are no stand-alone players supporting Mpeg4/AVC.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sadly, as reported by Doom9 (over on the main page), it sounds like the proposed KISS range of players, supporting Sigma's high-def EM8620L chip-set, have been delayed again!

http://img148.exs.cx/img148/1503/unwelcomenewss7sv.gif

Sufficed to say, there has been some problems with the I-O DATA players. However, it's difficult to determine how much of this is down to I-O DATA or Sigma!

But seeing as though, the chip-set is Sigma's and placed in a development kit which is Sigma's design... I'll leave you guys to decide where the problems may lie....


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

As reported earlier, an Australian based company called Zensonic are manufacturing an high-def DVD player based around Sigma's EM8620 chip-set.

http://img176.exs.cx/img176/1576/player6jx.png

More information about the player can be found over on the AVS Forum: -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=482136

But, what's interesting is, they are asking advice from prospective customers, about what can be included in the player. So if you have something to say... please do so... fast ;)

Here's what a representative from Zensonic has provided so far: -

Some differences between the Zensonic Z500 over the IODATA unit.

1. The IODATA does not support DVI HDCP which by law now is required on all DVI devices (HDCP)

2. The Z500 uses totally written from the ground up firmware and will not use the reference design or reference board unlike IODATA

3. The Z500 will support ID3 Tag on the VFD display on the unit, the IODATA does not support it unless they change hadrware

4. The Z500 will support up to 16MB of Flash memory and 64MB of DDR Memory. Not sure how much the IODATA has.

5. The Z500 will support Jog dial on the remote similar to the Mouse scroll button where it makes it much easier to navigate through huge MP3 files

6. The Z500 will support 5:1 analog outputs. Not sure if the IODATA does or not.

7. The Z500 will support WPA wireless encryption. Not sure if IODATA supports that or not.


These are the major differences between the 2 units. The US$ RRP will be $299.

Should you have any questions please feel free to ask. I will try and answer as many questions as possible.

Cheers

Chuna
(Zensonic Corp)
And here's their spec: -

http://img181.exs.cx/img181/1237/spec1uv.png

Note, support for the Matroska container...


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Tom and other I-O DATA player owners.....

You may all like to know that I-O DATA has just released new firmware for the player!


Cheers

[Wilbert]

But, what's interesting is, they are asking advice from prospective customers, about what can be included in the player. So if you have something to say... please do so... fast
Ask them about DivX/XviD with muxed subs. You know, the samples I sent you a few months ago.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Wilbert
Ask them about DivX/XviD with muxed subs. You know, the samples I sent you a few months ago. Good point!

I will ask the question :)


Cheers

[Wilbert]

Perhaps you can also give the link to the samples :) Btw, will they be sold in Europe too?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Wilbert
... Btw, will they be sold in Europe too? I don't see any reason why not.

Australia is a PAL (region 4) country and Zensonic have had the presence of mind to fit a scart socket and "proper" component video outputs, instead of that awful D4 connector...

But I guess the question needs asking too!


Cheers

[chuna]

Hi Everyone,

I just got the right to post here finally.

As for availaibilty in Europe, we intend on distribution in Europe. We are currently seeking distribution.

The firmware currently is in its early stages so a lot of the questions I may not be able to answer just yet due to the engineers that havent got to that part of the code yet. More and more answers will come as and when they are developed.

One note is that this unit will be Nero Digital certified as a lot of people use Nero Digital.

So I will try my best to answer as many question but if I cant please be patient and if not answered it is notbecause I am ignoring that question, it is because I dont have the answer yet from the engineers and I dont want to bug them this early.

So if you feel you want to start a new thread on the Z500 please feel free to so as to keep it seperate from other threads.

Cheers

Chuna
Zensonic Corporation
www.z500series.com.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi chuna, and a warm welcome to the forum.

It looks like you've already found the dedicated Zensonic Z500 thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=602738#post602738), so it's probably best to ask/answer all the questions about your player their.


Cheers

[len0x]

Looks like IOData playes can be bought in the UK now:
http://www.ng03.co.uk/acatalog/ng03_Shop_I_O_Data_Linkplayer_2_19.html
(but look at the %^&%^& price!)
There is also another instersting product there - Roku Labs HD1000 Photobridge:
http://www.ng03.co.uk/acatalog/ng03_Shop_Roku_Labs_HD1000_20.html

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by len0x
Looks like IOData playes can be bought in the UK now:
http://www.ng03.co.uk/acatalog/ng03_Shop_I_O_Data_Linkplayer_2_19.html
(but look at the %^&%^& price!)
There is also another instersting product there - Roku Labs HD1000 Photobridge:
http://www.ng03.co.uk/acatalog/ng03_Shop_Roku_Labs_HD1000_20.html Thanks len0x,

Wow... that's "some kinda price" for the I-O DATA player!

There is supposed to be a specially built I-O DATA player coming to the European market. So with this in mind, I would strongly urge people on this forum to wait.

For those interested in the Roku_Labs_HD1000. Here's a direct link to the devices specification: -

http://www.rokulabs.com/products/photobridge/specsheet.php


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

There has been some confusing rumours circulating various web sites and forums, stating that Sigma's EM8620L chip-set is able to support Mpeg4/AVC playback!

So yesterday I contacted Keith Jack of Sigma, who has been kind enough to clarify the companies current chip-set situation: -

RE: Sigma's chip-sets and Mpeg4/AVC (H.264)

The EM8620L does not support VC-1 and H.264.

The EM8622L and EM8624L chips are new versions that do support it. EM8622L is pin compatible with EM8620L to enable manufacturers to quickly shift to the new chip.

Keith Jack
Sigma Designs
So there we go ;)


Cheers

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sorry...

I'm a bit late informing you guys about this, however Buffalo have indeed released their high-def LinkTheater (Ref: PC-P3LWG/DVD) player.

Currently the player only seems to be available in Japan and North America. That said, things might change so it's best keep looking in at ther web site, which can be found here (http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=96&categoryid=18).

More detailed information can be found over on the AVS forum, here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=495915).


Cheers

[masken]

Another player with the EM8620L chipset, Transtechnology DVX-700 series:
http://www.trans-technology.com/default.asp?PAGE=DVX_700_SERIES

PDF:
http://219.123.247.228/~dloeffler/TTEuropeWebSiteLinks/brochures/DVX-700E.pdf

Claims HD playback, WMV9 & 10, got different playback modes through an "ultimate server" (networked) etc...

[niknik]

Sadly, as reported by Doom9 (over on the main page), it sounds like the proposed KISS range of players, supporting Sigma's high-def EM8620L chip-set, have been delayed again!

That was over 1 year ago... LOL
I think they'll just skip it entirely... I really don't understand why this has happened. (Good for Zensonic, Snazzio, and all the other companies :)

As for the "DP-700" from what I hear it really seems to be a "HD-DVD/Blueray" player - except for the actual media drive itself. :)

Not that I'm counting or "waiting" for it, but maybe some of the other companies will come out with a similar offer and a real launch date?

[laserfan]

Ancient thread, I know. But I'm wondering if anyone here has "hit a wall" wrt MPEG2 bitrates and their EM8620L player. My Pinnacle SC200 plays HDTV files just fine (typically 15Mb/s upwards to 19Mbps) but I'm wondering if I re-encode some HD DVD material if there's a particular upper limit I have to worry about?

I want to stick w/MPEG2 so I can edit some scenes into a "best of" demo for my HT...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Using a "hard-wired" connection. Both my Ziova CS505 and Z500 players are able to handle MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 sources of up-to 19Mbps via SMB. And up-to 35Mbps via UPnP (TwonkyMedia).

That said, I don't think any other manufacturers of EM8620L chip-set based devices offer both SMB and UPnP connectivity. And often the MPEG-4 decoding speeds are much lower than for MPEG-2.


Cheers

[niknik]

By now I would expect to have a lot more options when it comes to hardware based h264. Guess the Industry prefers to keep it to their "oficial" HD players as much as possible...

(well, I guess it just helps more people switch to HTPCs...)

[laserfan]

...up-to 35Mbps via UPnP...Thanks--my first attempt at high bitrate MPEG2 didn't look good at all (pictures, nothing to do w/bitrate) so I guess I have a learning curve to overcome first.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sigma's EM862xL "series" of chip-sets and stock reference board designs are pretty dated now and in my opinion were never capable of offering their much "hyped" performance levels...

I'm of the opinion that the Ziova software engineers have managed to squeeze out as much performance the chip-set/reference board combination can deliver.... Which appears to be significantly more than any other player manufacturer has been willing or able to do!

Devices based around Sigma's SMP8630 series of chip-set "should" be far more flexible - as long as their manufacturers are willing to refine their players feature sets.


Cheers

[laserfan]

My previous post wasn't worded very well--I just haven't figured-out how to make a good HD MPEG2 encoding yet. Wasn't a comment on the 8620.

I actually have been very pleased with my 8620--to-date it has played everything I've thrown at it. So I have high hopes that it will continue to work for me until "the next Big Thing" comes along. Hasn't arrived yet I think!!! :p

[SeeMoreDigital]

I see....

What applications are you using to generate your MPEG-2 streams. And at what resolution and "high" bit-rate?


Cheers

[laserfan]

Actually given that my 1st try at vc1-to-mpeg2 using HCenc was NG, I instead tried Xvid using HDTV profile, and while it looks wonderful, there are places in the program where my SC200 freezes and jumps indicating prolly too-high bitrate (action scenes). Was just now looking here for an analysis tool which I seem to have misplaced & can't remember the name...

Anyway I in looking at the HDTV profile it suggests using 1280x720 vs. the 1920x1080 that I'd done. So I (already vs. my prior post) have found something that chokes my player! :scared: If you know the name of the utility that analyzes Xvid bitrates please let me know!

[foxyshadis]

avinaptic's drf graph isn't perfect for this, it doesn't show you actual filled buffer size (which is unknown for these chips anyway), but it will show you where large bitrate segments occur.

[laserfan]

I think my mistake was in not cropping the original to 1280x720. Having done that the video plays no problem.

I've got avinaptic now too, thanks foxyshadis.

EDIT: My problem with the HDTV profile of Xvid was indeed in keeping the frames at 1920x1080. Upon resizing to 1280x720, using Single Pass at 2.75 yields bitrate of about 4Mbps and Qf of .20 and looks terrific. :)