Additions and comments on "GUIDE LIST: Stereo-to-surround Conversion.." [Archive]

daphy

14th October 2004, 12:30

Hi folks,

as Freddy Mercury once said:

The Show must go on ( - even if one have to leave!)

After being forced to remove the old guide, here my first attemp of an easy click guide (version 1.0b) (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org)

feedback wanted!

Edit by KpeX: Please use this thread for comments and additions to the guide list at the top of the page! :)

ursamtl

14th October 2004, 13:28

Daphy,

This is an excellent addition! I've added it to the Recent Additions section of the list.

Steve.

daphy

14th October 2004, 19:27

Hi folks,

today I have been very productive:

I made a complete besweet installation package (www.needfulthings.webhop.org)

please take a look on it! This one must be upesttodate :D

Feedback wanted.

daphy

15th October 2004, 11:51

Hi folks,

next guide is ready:

How to split a 6WAV into single 6 mono WAVs (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org)

Shayne

30th October 2004, 03:28

So with a list like that a little grouping of whats worth trying for what type of material is def required (grouping according to material). And no way in my wilds dreams am i going to try each one of these. So i would suggest order to these groups 1 2 3 in order of best results (your liking). This is a good start for some debate.

N i would like to know what happen to Eye of Horus guide sticky?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=60137&perpage=20&pagenumber=37

Fairly lame if i do say so myself.

I think a public response to why doom9.org has taken this type of knowledge out of peoples reach is required.

Maybe it can be added to doom9.net guide list.

Peace

KpeX

30th October 2004, 15:05

EoH removed his own guide, it was his choice to do so. I was forced to remove it from sticky status as it is useless to have a sticky thread without a guide.

ursamtl

30th October 2004, 15:53

Hi Shayne,

I understand that no one has time to try all the methods listed but rating them could be problematic. Where will these ratings come from? No matter how it's done, someone is going to feel it's unfair. The moderators have asked me to categorize the methods, and that's what I've been doing. It's not complete yet by any means, but the grouping is coming along. You can check the guide list's List History section for a bit of an explanation.

As for the EoH guide sticky, as kpex stated, the Eye of Horus guide was removed by Eye of Horus himself on October 12.

Since then, I've been updating the guide list almost daily with new information as it becomes available, which you can see listed in the update notices. Daphy has put together a couple of excellent animated visual guides and I've written a generic guide thread that applies to all Plogue Bidule-based methods. Several forum members are putting a lot of work into their surround methods. SurroundBoy has contributed a nice guide for Motown-style music, and joshbm has been constantly working to perfect his DPLII guide. These developments will continue as forum members continue to contribute valuable information and build up our surround knowledgebase. I look forward to any contributions you may be able to make.

Regards,
Steve.

Shayne

30th October 2004, 16:18

Originally posted by ursamtl

...... I understand that no one has time to try all the methods listed but rating them could be problematic. ...........

Regards,
Steve.

I don't know Doom9 has been doing it with video codec for sometime. You need to start it somehow (your preference) and from there who knows scientific tests could develop. But to put this huge list here as a sticky is not of too much help.

With regard to EoH guide if daphy and EOH are around i have this pdf'ed and we could link to daphys' ftp if EOH doesn't mined?? And then we can put it high on the list.

ursamtl

30th October 2004, 17:51

Originally posted by Shayne
I don't know Doom9 has been doing it with video codec for sometime. You need to start it somehow (your preference) and from there who knows scientific tests could develop. But to put this huge list here as a sticky is not of too much help.

With regard to EoH guide if daphy and EOH are around i have this pdf'ed and we could link to daphys' ftp if EOH doesn't mined?? And then we can put it high on the list.

As I understand it, Daphy and @ndy removed the PDF version of the thread from Doom9, because EoH requested that the guide be removed as he considered it his "intellectual property."

As for the ratings system, I'd certainly be willing to consider some sort of ratings, but part of the difficulty is because different audio sources produce varying results, depending on the method. Perhaps a better system would be to simply find a way of listing projects that provided good results using a specific method. We could start a thread dedicated just to results and then I could link to specific posts from within the guide list. What do you think?

Steve.

Shayne

30th October 2004, 18:04

Originally posted by ursamtl
[i] ..... As for the ratings system, I'd certainly be willing to consider some sort of ratings, but part of the difficulty is because different audio sources produce varying results ....

Steve.

Please reread the first post?

Grouped in terms of audio source number in terms of best results is i think what i said?

And this rerouting a post in this fashion is borderline ridiculous.

ursamtl

30th October 2004, 20:34

Originally posted by Shayne
Please reread the first post?

Grouped in terms of audio source number in terms of best results is i think what i said?Ok, but again since rating the quality of a method is fairly subjective, it's hard to assign ratings that can be considered fair. Perhaps a better way would be for people to report on specifics of their experiences, such as I did with some test results (http://forum.doom9.org/report.php?s=&postid=536560#post536560).Originally posted by Shayne
And this rerouting a post in this fashion is borderline ridiculous.Sorry you feel that way. Forum moderators, not only here but everywhere, often transfer messages or whole threads for a variety of reasons. I've discussed this with the moderators and they agree that the list is meant to be a resource and that discussion of it is better if it's placed in this separate thread. That is why they split off Daphy's message at the beginning of this thread, thereby creating the discussion thread. As well, at both the beginning and end of the guide list, this thread is mentioned as the place to discuss the thread.

Regards,
Steve.

trooper11

6th December 2004, 05:59

I applaud you for going to all the trouble to organize the varied guides and processes for 5.1 conversions. For a while I was trying to work alot with the first big guide that EOH helped put together, and it was great.

i did have a question though, or maybe its a suggestion lol.

Would it be possible to organize guides by what type of music the results work best for? For instance, my source will be alot of cd soundtracks, from anime and gaming types. Of course they all dont have the same sound, so I guess thats too broad of a genre. I guess Im just trying to save myself some time trying them all since i have alot of cds to do. If guides could be organized in order toof type like rock, classical, etc, that would be a help.

Also, a rating of complexity might be nice too, such as guides that are easier to impliment then others.

ursamtl

6th December 2004, 14:20

This is definitely a good idea, it's just a matter of how we implement it. It would require a lot of feedback from the people using the different methods. They could report back on their findings for specific projects. I'm certainly willing to include some sort of info in the guide list or to organize it in such a way, but I'd need the info from those doing all the different conversions because firstly for the results to be seen as credible and even somewhat objective, they have to come from a variety of sources, and secondly, I simply don't have the time to try all the different methods on different types of music. I just purchased a new 5.1 soundcard and speaker system. I'm spending a lot of time right now playing with that and exploring all its potential. Once I get that all sorted out, I'll be doing a lot of new surround experimentation.

There is also the issue of message length. I tried editing the guide list a few days ago and when I went to add another entry, the system told me I'd reached the message length limit. So, I'm going to have to split it up a bit.

Saving presets and plugin settings is another idea I've had floating around on my to-do list for quite some time. This could hold a lot of potential, at least for Plogue and Cubase/Nuendo-based methods. If someone came up with a consistently good result for certain types of music, he or she could save the settings in a file that would be placed somewhere so that others could download the settings. This is definitely something I plan to implement with V.I by distributing am fxb settings file with it.

So thanks for your idea, I'll definitely think about it. You might help by sharing your experiences with the different conversions, and hopefully others will follow suit.

Steve.

trooper11

7th December 2004, 07:55

ok great, as i do more testing ill definitely report my findings and help organize things with you as much as i can, but of course im still rather new to the whole process lol, so it may take some time.

ursamtl

7th December 2004, 13:52

Great! Thanks for your offer. Don't worry about the time it takes. We're not working under any deadlines here.

oelewapper

5th May 2006, 23:17

An addition for general Reading and Information :

This forum contains more than 30 different guides about converting stereo to surround. A lot of the methods there give almost professional results and most of them use freeware only. It contains guides, not found here or anywhere else !

Elektra999

12th September 2006, 15:57

Hi, Steve

I am testing guides it of Wave Lab 5.1, but me do not I clarify on what one must do in the step 6.

He seems me stupendous this he guides, but me do not I clarify in the step 6.

Thanks..
Elektra999

ursamtl

12th September 2006, 23:03

Look on the left side of the track. You will see a silver box with the number "1" in it. When click on the box, it becomes a menu. From that menu, choose "Clone Track." This makes a copy of the track underneat it. Now do the same thing again to create a third track. This will give you three stereo tracks, to make up your six channels.

Regards,
Steve.

Elektra999

15th September 2006, 19:14

Hi, Steve
al to select, mode 6 channels, a message seems me of ASIO DRIVERS, I go al menu Options Preferences and does not appear ASIO Drivers

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1061/wavelabqy3.jpg

Thanks
Elektra999

ursamtl

15th September 2006, 19:45

You could try installing ASIO4ALL, a free ASIO driver that sits on top of your WDM driver.

Elektra999

15th September 2006, 20:10

Thanks by the rapidity of the contestacion.
This it solved.
Good guides Steve

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8100/wavelab2fk5.jpg

Regards
Elektra666

Elektra999

20th September 2006, 16:57

I have been still 5.1 the whole guide of WaveLab to the letter, with the Suite of the V.I - LF LR, CLFE, SL SR.
OBSERVATIONS AND QUESTIONS:

After ending the whole procedure with Wave Lab, I have listened to channel for channel.

1 - The channels SL SR., scarcely are voices heard, with Plogue Bidule if the voices are heard, for the channels SL and SR., because?
2 - have I noticed the a bit lower serious ones of the LFE and the a bit more heightened sharp ones, not if the culprits will be my ears that old men do to themselves???? Jajaja;-)
3 - The Classic Master Limiter, have I it fitted to 0dB, this one exactly well?
4 - serious possible, that you were making a plug-in of the channel CS (central back) of the VI.I?

I have enjoyed very much the guide of the WaveLab, you are Steve A GENIUS, I have liked the results very much, I am very amazed of well that works you the sound.

Thanks Steve
Elektra999

ursamtl

22nd September 2006, 02:09

Hi Elektra,

Once more thank you for your feedback. I'm glad you're enjoying your experiments with the V.I Suite.

I don't know why you get voices in the surrounds with Plogue but not in Wavelab. Perhaps it is the source material. Sometimes voices will appear in the surrounds depending on how the source is recorded.

Yes, 0dB is a good setting for the Classic Master Limiter. At this level, it is just preventing overload and not compressing anything more than necessary.

Steve.

raquete

22nd September 2006, 04:46

Elektra999

22nd September 2006, 10:53

Hi, Raquete and Steve.

Raquete
I do not understand very well his question Raquete it, had to, to my English evil, but, I have a Marantz SR5500 (they can connect even the 7.1) I have 6.1 Infinty Beta20 connected to the Marantz. Central The channel back, I it have connected to the Marantz in the peg "SBL", this way I listen to 6.1.

I expect to have said something to him of interest.

Regards.

Steve
I remain experienced by WaveLab.
Thank you for everything, a greeting Steve.

ursamtl

22nd September 2006, 13:04

hi Steve,Elektra and all.

Steve,
tomorrow i will get one new receiver/decoder Sony 6.1 Dolby (ex II)....(oops i forgot the model).
don't mind the model now,is not important for my question...

i only want to know about the central back channel.
i can left the decoder "create" it (have this option in the receiver)but can i use like "oops" to this channel?
can you give one hint? (i still need to find any AC-3 6.1 encoder)

thanks!

I haven't really experimented much with 6.1 other than to create a separate VI.I plugin when some users requested it. The V.I surrounds are based on a modified Ambisonic layout that contained a rear center channel, which I simply mixed 50-50 into the sL and sR of the 5.1 version. So I ran it out separately to create the 6.1 version.

You could try generating the channel with the decoder and see how it sounds. As for the "oops" method. I've seen that name lately but it's really nothing new. As far as I understand it, the method is s the same old Hafler method that's been around since the 70's. It consists of taking the difference signal between the two channels as the surround feed. This is at the very core of the original Dolby Surround, Pro Logic I & II, the Y signal in Ambisonics, crosstalk cancellation, etc. Electronically, you can get the channel by hooking a speaker to the two positive outputs of a stereo amplifier or on a pro mixer by switching to M-S mode and taking just the S signal, or mixing the left and right channel together with one channel inverted. In software, subtract one channel from the other, use an M-S plugin and take the S output, or invert one of the two stereo channels and mix them together.

Regards,
Steve.

raquete

22nd September 2006, 21:11

I haven't really experimented much with 6.1 other than to create a separate VI.I plugin when some users requested it. The V.I surrounds are based on a modified Ambisonic layout that contained a rear center channel, which I simply mixed 50-50 into the sL and sR of the 5.1 version. So I ran it out separately to create the 6.1 version.i remember that you did a separate VI.I plugin now,i will find the post.
oops is undercover old Hafler method in 70's! :-)
in 74 i did this "dangerous" experience in my amplifier (lol)....well,works and i still have this ampl. working.

thanks Steve,very clear. ...thankyou too Elektra.

ursamtl

22nd September 2006, 21:27

oops is undercover old Hafler method in 70's! :-)
in 74 i did this "dangerous" experience in my amplifier (lol)....well,works and i still have this ampl. working.

Yes I first discovered it in an article in one of those old "101 Electronic Projects" magazines. I had a couple of 12" "full-range" speakers I sort of inherited so I built enclosures for them then bought a Radio Shack volume control and wired both of them up for "surround." When I was at university, I always had people visiting my dorm room to hear the system. I also wired the front in-dash speaker in my old car to a volume control and used it as a Hafler speaker and then the two big 6x9 speakers in the rear as the main ones. It sounded great! The trick was always to adjust the speakers until they just become apparent and then back off the volume just a bit. You could always reach a point where individual speakers cease to be apparent and you're just surrounded with a field of sound.

Actually when I got my first Dolby Pro Logic receiver, I didn't like it as well as the old tried and true Halfer speakers so I hooked them up too and had a 7-speaker setup!

Steve.

raquete

22nd September 2006, 22:12

comments (off topic..but in topic) :
i have seen lots of technicians/university audio students searching for money.great part don't have taste for music/audio.persons that really can discover or create something,are people that really like of what are doing.
i was an technician because i like music and i can feel that you was in university for taste,not for money.
now tell me: how many technicians/enginners "money searchers" can do something like VI. and send as gift to the community?
they only "copy", do little modifications and "paste" but don't create.(if you know what i mean)
i did crazy things with eletronic like start my car using a single calculator as remote control in 79. was completely useless (lol) because i was outside the car. (lol)
the good taste and experimentations like you did a long time takes to creativity. ;)
is like compare wine with water and lossless with mp3(lol).
when i was young i did lots of tube amplifiers,speakers and trust me,they still are working fine(well..more or less,new tubes are too rare here).
end of off topic(or little off topic)

regards Steve

Elektra999

25th September 2006, 14:57

Hi, Steve, Raquete and to all.

Steve Already because (I create) with WaveLab, in the channels SL SR. scarcely they appreciate the voices:

1 - Correct me if I am wrong Steve, when the audio converse with V.I in Plogue, if the Mode Movie is activated, there is activated the Mode Movie of all the channels? Included the backs?

2 - In WaveLab the plug-in SL SR. of the V.I cannot activate the Mode Movie and the voices are not estimated for this motive, I am in the certain thing?

3 - Always I activate the Mode Movie in Plogue, and now I have realized, that with WaveLab I can activate the Mode Movie of the plug-in CLFE that is in the one that I am interested, since I like to listen the voice with mas to clarity.

Thank you very much
Elektra666

Elektra999

25th September 2006, 18:11

Allow me Steve, if it is possible, I him can send two audios exactly equal of, the channels SL SR., but one is worn out with WaveLab and other one with Plogue.

Regards
Elektra999

raquete

25th September 2006, 19:14

...WaveLab and other one with Ploguei'm around but receive my excuses Elektra.i don't use this programs,better wait for Steve a little more.

regards

ursamtl

25th September 2006, 23:40

1 - Correct me if I am wrong Steve, when the audio converse with V.I in Plogue, if the Mode Movie is activated, there is activated the Mode Movie of all the channels? Included the backs?

No Movie Mode does not affect the surround channels. It simply removes some of the frequencies in the range of the human voice from the front left and right channels and puts them in the Center channel. This is why the Movie Mode switch does appear in the fLfR and CLFE pluginsm but not the sLsR plugins. These three 2-channel plugins duplicate their equivalent channels in the full V.I 5.1 plugin.

Regards,
Steve.

Elektra999

26th September 2006, 16:11

Steve excuses, I have just reported an audio in Plogue and other one in WaveLab and they are heard equal...
Not because? But on having done one day the conversion in Plogue there remained for the channels SL SR. a few voices that were listened very much.

I sit it Steve, forgive me for being weighed jajaja, sometimes with so much sound I finish madman ;)

ursamtl

27th September 2006, 23:16

Hehe. No problem, Elektra. I'm glad it worked for you.

raquete

28th September 2006, 00:50

I haven't really experimented much with 6.1 other than to create a separate VI.I plugin when some users requested it.
i remember that you did a separate VI.I plugin now,i will find the post.
Steve,i can't find the post,can you help?

thanks

Elektra999

28th September 2006, 12:39

Do they refer to this post?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=113590&highlight=VST+Plogue

Elektra999

28th September 2006, 15:36

I have a doubt:

Can channel create CS (central back) with WaveLab 5?
Does some way exist to create it?

Thanks
Elektra999

raquete

28th September 2006, 21:25

Do they refer to this post?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=113590&highlight=VST+Plogue

Elektra,
Steve send the "Suite VI.I 6.1" for you by mail? ! ?

send me a private message with your email and I'd be happy to put one together for you http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=856353#post856353

thanks!

ursamtl

29th September 2006, 13:05

I don't think it would work in Wavelab. You would need to create a 3-channel file and I don't believe that Wavelab supports this.

Elektra999

1st October 2006, 16:50

AUDIO FOR MUSIC

FL FR, Mode Movie - OFF and Master Classic Limiter to 0dB

Believe that the dynamic range is listened better in OFF

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7870/flfrea1.jpg

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8067/classichu8.jpg

CLFE, Mode Movie - ON and and Master Classic Limiter to 0dB

Will Lift the voice and the instruments will not be heard so much by the Central Front channel

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/69/clfeqs1.jpg

SL SR, and Master Classic Limiter to 0dB

http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/7272/slsrux7.jpg

It is not necessary to do anything

The plug-in V.I in Plogue, if the Mode Movie is activated, activates the Mode Movie of the channels FL FR.
These methods of stereo to surround 5.1 with the Suite of the V.I are better that I have tried, the quality that V.I offers is, EXCELLENT!!!

Elektra999

1st October 2006, 17:42

What I work with WaveLab 5.1, also it is possible to do in Plogue Bidule.

Steve, I hope, that it comments that ii seems to him...

I am been charmed with of being in this forum:)

http://img351.imageshack.us/img351/5476/suitevinp7.jpg

Layout

raquete

1st October 2006, 22:59

Elektra,
using Master Classic Limiter to 0dB you don't hear(or feel) the sound like "tube warmth" that lose the whole dynamic of the music?

ursamtl

2nd October 2006, 13:34

At 0dB, The Classic Limiter functions as a brickwall limiter. This basically means that it doesn't affect any sound below 0dB but any peaks that would try to pass 0dB (and be cut off because digital audio can't go higher than 0dB) would be reduced in level to just reach 0dB.

This is a "last-resort" safety measure to prevent digital clipping. Some research I've been doing lately indicates that for complete preservation of the audio information, it's best to stay about -3dB below the 0 level because intersample estimating of levels can go above 0dB, and also because some electronic devices start distorting before the signal actually reaches the clipping point.

This would mean keeping the source levels from getting too loud. It requires a bit of experimentation and level monitoring or analysis before doing the actual upmix.

Elektra999

2nd October 2006, 16:07

Steve it to explained very well, I it had not explained better je je.

Steve,
who looks like to him the connections in Plogue and my commentary on the Mode Movie of the plug-in FL FR?

Regards
Elektra999

Certainly, I am working the channels SL SR, adding a small lack of coordination of milliseconds, to see, if I can do the channel CS Discrete, not Matrix.

raquete

2nd October 2006, 17:41

It requires a bit of experimentation and level monitoring or analysis before doing the actual upmix.you're right and i always do that for each track(i only encode musics,not movies)

Some research I've been doing lately indicates that for complete preservation of the audio information, it's best to stay about -3dB below the 0 level because intersample estimating of levels can go above 0dB, and also because some electronic devices start distorting before the signal actually reaches the clipping point. - 3dB is my "limit", i agree and you too.this is why i had asked about Master Classic Limiter to 0dB, for me,at odB sounds like warm tubes next to distortions.volume is for amplifiers,not for the source and with -3dB don't need to prevent digital clipping or i'm missing something in your explanations?