GUIDE: Step-by-Step Instructions for Plogue Bidule-based Stereo-to-Surround methods

[ursamtl]

Step-by-Step Instructions for Plogue Bidule-based Stereo-to-Surround methods

Many of the methods posted in this forum for converting stereo to surround use a software package called Plogue Bidule, available as a free beta version from http://www.plogue.com.

This thread presents instructions, tips and tricks for getting the most out of these methods. Individual steps may vary from one approach to another, but through time, some basic common steps have become clear.

The basic step-by-step structure is presented in the following messages. As time goes on, I'll edit the messages to update links to related messages or documents as well as to add new information.

For an excellent visual accompanyment, I invite readers to check our Daphy's excellent Shockwave animation of the basic process (http://www.freewebtown.com/andiz/audio/guides/first-6WAV-guide.exe).

Most of the software and PDF versions of most guides with step-by-step instructions are available at Daphy and @ndy's server:

Server for Bidules
http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org/
If you have problems with this server, try ftp://daphy.mine.nu/.

If you have any suggestions for changes, additions, etc., please send them to UrsaMtl.

Updates
Because the system does not display an unread message icon when an existing message is updated, I'll post a message at the end of the thread whenever there are updates to the guide. If another update occurs, I'll delete the existing update message, and post a new one. I'll also list an overview of any changes.

This way, you'll always be aware when there are changes to the list.

Happy surrounding!
Steve.

[ursamtl]

STEP 1: Install and configure all related software
This includes Plogue Bidule (http://www.plogue.com/) as well as any VST plugins, Besweet (http://dspguru.notrace.dk/), and any encoding software.

Once you've finished the installation, open Plogue Bidule. Go to Edit > Preferences and in the DISK I/O tab, be sure to set use WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE to never.

http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/waveformatextensiblenever.gif

This will help BeSweet recognize your files, should you decide to save them as 32-bit files.

[ursamtl]

STEP 2: Plan your project
At this point, you have to determine your goal and your available software/hardware resources.
If you intend to produce a surround file for a DVD, you should plan to work with 48kHz files. For example, if you're converting a 2-channel movie soundtrack to 5.1, you'll want to do it this way. Also, if you want to create a DVD containing audio tracks and still images, convert your audio tracks to 48kHz.

If you plan to create a surround audio CD (an audio CD that will play in a DVD player), you should work with 44.1kHz files.

Set Plogue to the correct sample rate. If you're monitoring through certain ASIO soundcard setups, you also have to set the correct sample rate for the ASIO driver as well.

[ursamtl]

STEP 3: Prepare your source files
This section is vitally important!

First of all, make sure your source file is in .wav format. Bidule does not support other file types.

Garbage in…garbage out...
Whenever possible, start with the best audio source you can find. This usually means fully uncompressed PCM audio from a CD. Obviously this is not an option if you're working from a 2-channel DVD soundtrack that you want to convert. If you start with a low-quality source file, you'll end up with a low-quality 5.1 project.

Avoid MP3s and WMAs
Most popular compression algorithms use something called lossy compression. This means that some of the data is changed or "lost" in the compression process. The actual audio effect of this may be impossible to really hear, but in a lot of cases, compression affects subtle details such as the clarity and definition of cymbals, the tightness of the bass, the crispness of the drums, etc. It can also affect the dynamic range of the audio, which means the difference in level between the softest and the loudest parts of a song.

Lossless compression
Recently, lossless compression technology has become popular. Such formats as SHN, FLAC, APE and others restore the original data without any change or loss. This kind of source should not pose any problem when converting 2.0 to 5.1 as long as you convert them to .wav first!

Ripping CDs
The first step is to transfer CD to your computer is to do what's commonly called "ripping" a CD. This consists of copying the audio data from an audio CD and storing it in a WAV file on your computer. This may sound simple, but audio CDs store data differently than computer data CDs and hard drives. Consequently, the audio data can get corrupted in the copying process. One of the best CD ripping programs available is Exact Audio Copy (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/).

Removing DC offset
If you check web site discussions of EAC, you'll see a lot of references to "sample offset." There's another type of offset that you should deal with before going any further in the conversion process. DC offset is a problem frequently found in audio digital files. A simple explanation would be that the digital representation of the sound waves is skewed somewhat from center. This can cause problems such as added noise and reduced dynamic range. Even if it's a very small level of DC Offset, you should always remove it.

Although you can remove DC offset using other software packages such as Audacity (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/) or commercial programs (Wavelab, Sound Forge, Cubase, Nuendo, etc.), EAC features a built-in DC offset removal routine. Simply choose Tools > Process WAV and then open your target file. After the file opens, choose Process File > Correct DC Offset.
3. Click Autodetect and wait for the program to search the audio file for problems. If there are any offsets, they'll be displayed afterwards.
4. Simply click OK to correct any problems and exit the routine.
About 32-bit files
Some guides recommend converting your files to 32-bit floating point format because VSTs normally process at a depth of 32 bits. You don't need to do this in a separate step because Plogue Bidule automatically converts the source file to 32 bits.

Keep it clean!
The bottom line for this whole step is that you want to feed the conversion process with a file of the best possible quality. Many of these conversion methods will accentuate or amplify any flaws in the source material. I once tried running an mp3 of an old 60s song through a bidule. It sounded ok in 2 channels, but for some reason, the surrounds were full of audible digital noise. Yeechhhhh!

[ursamtl]

STEP 4: Load the .bidule layout file and make any adjustments
Open Plogue Bidule and load the .bidule layout file for the method you plan to use. Check the layout's documentation for any settings or adjustments that may be required.

[ursamtl]

STEP 5: Load your source file and use Bidule to create a 6-channel .wav file
Here's the procedure for automating the recording so the starting times are aligned: Make sure the button to the right of the Palette button at the top is set to Off (this button toggles Bidule's processing between On and Off).
Click on the Tools menu and choose Parameters.
In the Parameters dialog box, expand the Audio file Player in the left Source pane and select Play.
Expand the Audio file Recorder in the right Target pane and select Recording.
Click the Link button and see that the link is listed in the bottom pane
Click X at top right of screen to close Parameters dialog box.
Providing you're not planning to monitor your playback in bidule, go to the Edit menu and make sure the Offline Processing menu item has a check mark beside it. This uses as much of PC's processing power as possible to complete the conversion as fast as possible. Without this, the file is converted at playback speed; that is, a 5-minute song would take 5 minutes to write the file.
Double-click on the Audio file Recorder object to open its dialog box.
Set your bit depth (16, 24, or 32 bits).
If you want to create six mono files instead of one six-channel file, click the box next to Create multiple mono files in Audio file Recorder (depending on your screen layout, you may have to scroll down to see this box). This will depen on your encoding software. Some programs require six mono files.
Click the button on the right with three periods. This opens a dialog box for you to name and save your 6-channel file (although the dialog box title is "Select a file"). When you close this, do not click the Start button.
Double-click on the Audio file Player object to open its dialog box.
Click on the button at the lower right corner of the Audio file Player dialog box to Open your source audio file. Navigate to the folder containing your file, select the file, then click OK.
Click the Play button on the Audio file Player. Notice that the Start button in the Audio File Recorder changes to Stop, but the Elapsed time counter remains at 00:00:00.
Click the Off button at the top middle to toggle Bidule's processing on (the button changes to On). The Audio File Player starts playing the file at the same time as the File Recorder starts writing a file. Notice that in offline mode, the Elapsed time readout does not always increment smoothly. Instead, it jumps rapidly in chunks of several seconds, depending on your PC's power.

[ursamtl]

STEP 6: Encode using AC3 or DTS encoding software
Use your encoding software to produce the AC3 or DTS file. If you're creating a surround CD, you can write the file or files to a regular blank CDR or CDRW just as you would a regular audio CD. It's a good idea to label this CD as for playback in DVD players only. An attempt to play it in a regular CD player could result in damage to your equipment.

You may want to use a utility such as johnman's wavewizard (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=662555#post662555) to help with this.

[ursamtl]

Softencode uses a different channel order from the ITU standard for 5.1, on which I based the default channel order in the layout I created for V.I. You can either rearrange the channels in Softencode to, L, R, C, LFE, sL, SR using the icons on the left for each channel, or else you can change the connections in the layout to match SoftEncode's order. I usually just change the order in Softencode since it's a matter of a couple of mouse clicks.

[Jibreil]

Softencode uses a different channel order from the ITU standard for 5.1, on which I based the default channel order in the layout I created for V.I. You can either rearrange the channels in Softencode to, L, R, C, LFE, sL, SR using the icons on the left for each channel, or else you can change the connections in the layout to match SoftEncode's order. I usually just change the order in Softencode since it's a matter of a couple of mouse clicks.

Spliting 6CH WAV File to 6 mono wav's

BeSweet.exe -core( -input "C:\Audio\esotsm_audio.wav" -output "C:\Audio\esotsm_audio" -type wav -6chfloat ) -ota( -G max )


Is the above the correct command line to split the WAV to seperate 6 mono WAV's for SoftEncode?


6CH WAV file to AC3 with BeSweet

BeSweet.exe -core( -input "C:\Audio\esotsm_audio.wav" -output "C:\Audio\esotsm_audio.ac3" -logfile "C:\Audio\esotsm_audio.log" ) -ota( -G max ) -ac3enc( -b 448 -6chfloat )



I'm looking for the optimal settings [the correct command line parameters in reference to the above command line] to be able to Transcode a 6ch WAV file to 5.1 AC3 with BeSweet... anyone?

[tebasuna51]

Spliting 6CH WAV File to 6 mono wav's:
BeSweet -core( -input audio.wav" -output audio" -type wav -6chfloat ) -ota( -G max )
* -6ch -> 6 mono PCM 16 bit
* -6chfloat -> 6 mono Float 32 bit (I think not necessary for this conversion)

6CH WAV file to AC3 with BeSweet:
BeSweet -core( -input audio2.wav -output audio.ac3 ) -ota( -G max ) -ac3enc( -b 448 -6ch )
* -6ch unique switch, ac3enc accept PCM 16 bit or Float 32 bit like input
* -audio2.wav(L,C,R,SL,SR,LFE) <> audio.wav(L,R,C,LFE,SL,SR)

To obtain audio2.wav you need a ord_ac3.mux:
audioL.wav
audioC.wav
audioR.wav
audioSL.wav
audioSR.wav
audioLFE.wav

And 6 mono wav to 6CH WAV
BeSweet -core( -input ord_ac3.mux -output audio2.wav -6chwav)
* -6chwav only PCM 16 bit

Of course better solution is directly
6 mono WAV to AC3 with BeSweet
BeSweet -core( -input ord_ac3.mux -output audio.ac3 ) -ota( -G max ) -ac3enc( -b 448 -6ch )
* ord_ac3.mux same than before

EDIT: Sorry, I say you the same in other thread, seems your problem is low volume of ac3. Is a know ac3enc problem, you must use the last version:
ac3enc.dll 2004-04-02
But for my test the max volume is -6 dB (50%). If you want 100% you need a commercial encoder or the old Sonic Foundry Soft Encode. If you want know the Soft Encode use I recommend you this guide http://spanish.doom9.org/Soft4/Docs/2to5channel.zip

[Jibreil]

Thank you tebasuna51

I have switched over to Sonic Audio Transcoder v3.0.1 which comes with Sonic Scenarist. I have read many articles which state that Sonic has the BEST Dolby Digital Transcoder compared to the rest.

Now I have used ursamtl Stereo-to-Surround Guide with Poluge Bidule + V.I + SIR VST Plugins. The output is a 6ch WAV file [L, R, C, LFE, sL, SR]

Should I be using BeSweet or BeSplit to into 6 mono WAV's ?

BTW, my 6ch WAV file is 8GB.

Sonic Audio Transcoder Input format is [L, R, sL, sR, C, LFE] Will BeSweet or BeSplit split the audio in the right format so that I can load them into Sonic Audio Transcoder?

[tebasuna51]

If Sonic Audio Transcoder accept 6 mono wav like input you must use WaveWizard to split this 8 GB 6chan wav.
BeSweet only can split wav float 32 bit, if is PCM 16 bit only accept < 2 GB
BeSplit can do the job also, but with a error in wav header (BlockAlign)

If Sonic Audio Transcoder need a 6chan wav like input you can try WaveWizard to do the remapping, but a wav > 4 GB have always two header fields erroneous and can be a problem. Microsoft recommend use avi container for wav > 4 GB.

[Radiomans]

Hi

My copy of this has expired to day :mad:
and i had it working great!

Is there any other prog that can use VST plugins ?
or maybe a keygen or whatever for Plogue Bidule V0.8501 :(

Thanks
radiomans

[ursamtl]

Mentioning keygens is usually not tolerated on here. Besides, Plogue Bidule is an amazingly versatile program. How you considered buying a key to it legally? The guys at Plogue have to make a living too and they are providing tremendous software for a small price.

[Radiomans]

Hi

Sorry about that......should have known :D
I only got it the other day, just used it about
4 or 5 times then it expired to-day.

But i do need a good prog that can also use
your vst plugin.

Thanks
Radiomans

[johnman]

A program that can host vst's is called "vst host". I dont know if it can be used for your specifick task, but you might give it a try. To find it go to daphy's site or use google.

[Radiomans]

Hi

Just tryed that prog...........don't think it will work with
V1 5.1 vst as its asking for files with .vsthost ext :confused:

What iam trying to do is the 2 chan wav to 6 mono wav to make
a 5.1 ac3 file, and i would like to use Ursamtl's vst to do it with.

Thanks for the help
Radiomans

[ursamtl]

Radiomans, I don't know of any free vst hosts that support multichannel output to file. There is a free program called Kristal Audio Engine that you could use to generate V.I-type surrounds with the my companion plugin called II. It handles 2-channel VSTs (such as II) and works with 32-bit files as well as 16-bit ones. With a bit of work you could come up with basically the same thing as V.I. Use II for the surrounds. Leave the front left and right as the original stereo channels then create a center channel by mixing the left and right together and halving the volume. As for an LFE, you don't really need one. Kristal Audio Engine supports two VST plugins per "channel" and then two more at its output.

I'm still hoping some talented programmer such as johnman will come up with a free multichannel VST host.

[johnman]

I'm still hoping some talented programmer such as johnman will come up with a free multichannel VST host.

Im working on it :). The next version of ww should have some basic vst-hosting (and some other stuff)

But currently im trying to finish an assignement of which the deadline expired yesterday :(.

[Radiomans]

Hi

Johnman
So will this prog you are working on, work with Ursamtl's
v1 5.1 vst ?
If so when do you think it will be ready ? ;)

Also do you know of a way i can get Plogue Bidule v0.8501
which has just expired(24-09-05) re installed back on my
pc for another trial ? ;)

Radiomans

[johnman]

Hi
Johnman
So will this prog you are working on, work with Ursamtl's
v1 5.1 vst ?
If so when do you think it will be ready ? ;)


It wil probabely (more or less) work with Ursamtls vst, since thats the one im using to test with. But this doesnt mean all vst's will work, since i wont support all functions in the first release. But im also adding decoding dts/ac3 (and maybe mp3) and recording from soundcard, so it will take a while untill next release.


Also do you know of a way i can get Plogue Bidule v0.8501
which has just expired(24-09-05) re installed back on my
pc for another trial ? ;)
Radiomans
There is a reason why the author disabled the program. So enabling it wouldn't be in accordance with the wishes of the author, and might be even illegal so i wouldnt discuss this subject on this forum. And since im a developer myself i think it would a BIG no-no if i were to help you with this.

[johnman]

I finally can show the gui from the vi vst, but its a bit small. So im wondering if the size is hardcoded in, or do i have to somehow resize it?

pic (http://www.rarewares.org/wavewiz/vst.png)

[ursamtl]

No, that's the right size. Many VSTs have a GUI hardcoded in this way and cannot be changed.

[f@chance]

Also do you know of a way i can get Plogue Bidule v0.8501
which has just expired(24-09-05) re installed back on my
pc for another trial ? ;)
Create a new partition install OS install PB or run VMC create virtual machines, install PB.

Still consider how much your time is worth and then make the decision on plunking down the $75 for registration. If you like the software buy it.

By the way I am in the same boat love the V.I. and my version of PB expired also on the 24 and my Visa bill just got a charge :(

[Radiomans]

Hi

Thanks for that advice f@chance.

i just paid for the key off Plogue, and got the prog working again
cost me £52 :cool:

Radiomans

[f@chance]

i just paid for the key off Plogue, and got the prog working again
cost me £52 :cool:
Guess what at about 10 PM UK time yesterday I got my key for $75. Hate to see that the same product same delivery is more expensive in Canada, UK and Europe then in the US. Ordered it with US credentials.

My next step is to fiddle with the settings in the V.I. module to get the surround ambience and level to my liking. Anyone have any suggestions for settings? The default settings for my likiong produce a too high surround sound level even with 2 notches less then the default settings.

[Radiomans]

Hi

yes i got the same probs, that the surround level and ambience are
to high for me to, as i am into movie sound to!

so i will also have a play to see if i can get it sorted.

Any help or hints of any settings for movie 5.1 sound, would be most greatful

Thanks
Radiomans

[davidv@plogue]

Hello

Guess what at about 10 PM UK time yesterday I got my key for $75. Hate to see that the same product same delivery is more expensive in Canada, UK and Europe then in the US. Ordered it with US credentials.


First let me thank you about your purchace!
We are a small company thats tries to get even, in a small competitive market.

Secondly as a small company we dont have money to waste with legal fees if we get caught doing something wrong, so we go by the law. The Canadian/Quebec law forces us to declare canadian taxes on all canadians buying the software (since the company is canadian).

Secondly: "As of July 1, 2003, new VAT regulations apply within the European Union (EU). VAT is due if a private customer in the EU purchases an electronically-delivered product from a publisher located outside the EU. The VAT rate is dependent on the location of the customer.
Corporate customers who specify a valid VAT ID number in the ordering process do not pay any VAT."

The US residents dont have to pay any tax as far as we are concerned,
We dont condone using any false addresses.

So please understand that we are not trying to rip off anyone.
Cheers

[ursamtl]

Hi

yes i got the same probs, that the surround level and ambience are
to high for me to, as i am into movie sound to!

so i will also have a play to see if i can get it sorted.

Any help or hints of any settings for movie 5.1 sound, would be most greatful

Thanks
Radiomans

You can always turn the ambience settings down (to the left). Experiment a bit to see what works best for you.

As for movie sound, the one big difference between movies and music is the dialog. Usually people prefer it to come from the center channel. With the current V.I, you could use the Bidule layout I created and move the "Center Limiting Threshold" slider to the left. This will raise the level of the center channel and also compress it (meaning there'll be less difference between low volume and high volume). Compression is often considered "bad" for music but for dialog, it can help make speech more intelligible and separate it more from the background. Again, experiment until you come up with something that works for you.

Be sure to let us know how it turns out and share your settings with us!

Regards,
Steve.

[f@chance]

Secondly as a small company we dont have money to waste with legal fees if we get caught doing something wrong, so we go by the law. The Canadian/Quebec law forces us to declare canadian taxes on all canadians buying the software (since the company is canadian).

Secondly: "As of July 1, 2003, new VAT regulations apply within the European Union (EU). VAT is due if a private customer in the EU purchases an electronically-delivered product from a publisher located outside the EU. The VAT rate is dependent on the location of the customer.
Corporate customers who specify a valid VAT ID number in the ordering process do not pay any VAT."

The US residents dont have to pay any tax as far as we are concerned,
We dont condone using any false addresses.

So please understand that we are not trying to rip off anyone.
Cheers
I fully understand you and I am sorry if it sounded that the company Plogue, did the rip off. NO I do understand that you are in a predicament. I had been an ISV for about 8 years with my own company and know where you are coming from.

However in my case I am on a contract in the UK for indefinite length, I have been a US resident for 30 years and have a home there. All credentials are totally legitimate, no false addresses everything above the board.

Sorry if I left the wrong impression. My heart, feelings and financial support is with ISVs and small companies. There some programs and utilities that I gladly support so that this small community will benefit.

Hope this corrects any misunderstanding.

[davidv@plogue]

Hi again.

Hope this corrects any misunderstanding.

Thanks it does. Didnt want to be rude, just wanted to explain to all why the prices looked fishy.

[j_olson]

For an excellent visual accompanyment, I invite readers to check our Daphy's excellent Shockwave animation of the basic process (http://www.freewebtown.com/andiz/audio/guides/first-6WAV-guide.exe).
Gone. :(

Does anyone know how long Bidule 0.9 will work before it expires, can't find anything about expiry date at their web site? Not fun if one configure and setup for a day or two and then it expires before any test result can be heard...

Trying this guide with 0.9 and can't find "the sixth icon", "audio player" or anything else described in the beginning of the guide... Is Bidule GUI changed?

Open Plogue Bidule and load the .bidule layout file for the method you plan to use.
I didn't understand that part, have to do more reading... :D A pity that visual help using Shockwave isn't available...

[f@chance]

Does anyone know how long Bidule 0.9 will work before it expires, can't find anything about expiry date at their web site?
Check this Post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=91471)

[j_olson]

Thanks, any suggestions for a .bidule that would be good for making DD5.1 out of a stereo track (a concert recorded from Sat-TV, thought I should try making a DVD out of it). I ought to be able to do that test before 2006/01...

I looked at Steve's V.I before, would that be a good choice? (and where's the bidule)...

Look like's it Bidule FAQ time...

[ursamtl]

Thanks, any suggestions for a .bidule that would be good for making DD5.1 out of a stereo track (a concert recorded from Sat-TV, thought I should try making a DVD out of it). I ought to be able to do that test before 2006/01...

I looked at Steve's V.I before, would that be a good choice? (and where's the bidule)...

Look like's it Bidule FAQ time...

Sounds like your project could be a good candidate for the new V.I 0.9 with the Movie Mode switch. I've been getting some good feedback about it.

The latest updated bidule layouts are listed in Using V.I with Plogue Bidule (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=570433#post570433)

Give them a try and let us know how your soundtrack turns out.

Regards,
Steve.

[ursamtl]

The Plogue Bidule layouts I've created for use with the V.I and VI.I plugins are now updated for use with Bidule v 0.9 and the message "Some parameters could not be loaded" no longer appears when you open them. You can download the updated layouts here: V.I VST Bidule Layouts (http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/V.I-VST_Bidule_layouts.zip).

Don't forget that you'll need to download and install the freeware mda dither and Classic Limiter plugins to use all three layouts I created. You'll also need to download and install the freeware SIR and Classic Reverb plugins to use the layouts created for them (also don't forget to use some impulse response in SIR. You can find excellent free ones at at www.noisevault.com).

All the links for these can be found at the top of Using V.I with Plogue Bidule (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=570433#post570433).

May you be surrounded by great sounds!
Steve.

[j_olson]

Thanks :)

[j_olson]

It went OK, the LFE channel contained almost nothing though (and at a very low volume). The whole DVD got a tad low audio, but that's just to raise the volume...

[trenz]

Although you can remove DC offset using other software packages such as Audacity (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/) or commercial programs (Wavelab, Sound Forge, Cubase, Nuendo, etc.), EAC features a built-in DC offset removal routine.[list=1] Simply choose Tools > Process WAV and then open your target file. After the file opens, choose Process File > Correct DC Offset.
3. Click Autodetect and wait for the program to search the audio file for problems. If there are any offsets, they'll be displayed afterwards.
4. Simply click OK to correct any problems and exit the routine.

I am just beginning the process of learning 2ch to 6ch so my first question:

can you do the offset while ripping with EAC or do you have to do each wav separately after ripping

Also, at the risk of sounding like an idiot, after clicking ok in above steps you still have to click file, save right?

Thanks for all the great info. I am looking forward to the final results

[ursamtl]

Hi Trenz,

Welcome aboard! I think you'll have fun with these stereo to surround conversions. To answer your questions, no you can't (to my knowledge) do the DCOffset removal while ripping in EAC, and yes you would have to save the file afterwards.

An alternative would be to add a VST plugin called DCKiller to your bidule layout, just after the file player. You can find this as part of Tobybear's Utilbag (http://www.tobybear.de/p_utilbag.html) set of VST utilities.It also converts the file to 32-bit resolution at the same time, so it's a valuable plugin.

[trenz]

slowly but surely I am learning. new questions

1) I intend to make DVD-A discs with my conversions so I should use r8brain to change the sample rate from 44k to 48 k first,correct. Should I change the bit depth here also or just use Bidule

2) I get the can't load paramaters error. I tried different things I saw here like right click VI, replace, etc to no avail. I even had the red VI box disappear. I had to reinstall everything a few times.I don't mind just clicking ok if everything will still work. It does say starting point in the drop down box with the four sliders in a few different positions (5,4,5,10)

3) in the 5.1 output box all of my sliders are to the right. I thought I saw mention of presets. Am I missing something here

4) where can I find the movie mode switch. I would like to try this

5) THANKS FOR HELPING NEWBIES LIKE ME

I have been reading and reading a few different threads on this subject so forgive me if I am repeating something that has been covered. I am sure you will be hearing from me again soon:)

[ursamtl]

1) I intend to make DVD-A discs with my conversions so I should use r8brain to change the sample rate from 44k to 48 k first,correct. Should I change the bit depth here also or just use BiduleDVD-A discs do not require 48kHz as is the case with DVD video discs. However, if you plan to create hybrid discs with audio in both the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders, then you'll need 48kHz for the DVD video. In such a case, it makes sense to resample your source file once to 48kHz using a high-quality resampler such as r8brain or ssrc and then stick with 48kHz all the way through your project.

2) I get the can't load paramaters error. I tried different things I saw here like right click VI, replace, etc to no avail. I even had the red VI box disappear. I had to reinstall everything a few times.I don't mind just clicking ok if everything will still work. It does say starting point in the drop down box with the four sliders in a few different positions (5,4,5,10)Did you down load the latest version of everything? The parameter loading error occurred with files saved from one version of bidule and then loaded into another. I fixed this awhile back and haven't heard of it since. Make sure all your downloads are up to date. If so and you still get the error, let me know and I'll try to track it down. If you right click on the V.I object and choose ReInit, the program should reset the parameters. As you say, you do get the "Starting Point" preset, so that seems to suggest it's working.3) in the 5.1 output box all of my sliders are to the right. I thought I saw mention of presets. Am I missing something hereNo, I didn't create any presets for this. This is simply a bidule group with everything set to neutral settings of limiting to the top level without clipping or overloading (0dB) but with no compression. As you move the sliders to the left, you compress the signal coming through each channel. This raises the lowest levels to make them louder without the peaks exceeding 0dB. This can be useful to tighten up the bass in the LFE for example or to make the C channel stand out for movie dialog, but too much can "squash" the sound and make it unpleasant. Too much compression on a recording increase listening fatigue as well so that's why I left everything at 0 and let the user decide of he or she wants compression.4) where can I find the movie mode switch. I would like to try thisThe switch is clearly labelled on the middle of the right side of the red V.I user interface. If it's not visible, simply double click on the V.I object in bidule.5) THANKS FOR HELPING NEWBIES LIKE MENo problem. I was a complete newbie to this all only about 2 years ago. I really disliked it when one or two more experienced people treated us newcomers in a condescending way whenever we tried to contribute or question why things were done a certain way, so I always try to help newcomers. In my view, no one has cornered the market on good ideas, so if we all contribute and pool our knowledge, everyone benefits.I have been reading and reading a few different threads on this subject so forgive me if I am repeating something that has been covered. I am sure you will be hearing from me again soon:)Again, no problem. Some forum users have very little patience for repeated questions that could easily be answered with a little reading, searching and Googling, so always try these first. But if you don't find an obvious answer, by all means ask!

Enjoy!
Steve.

[trenz]

Sorry to keep bothering you but I can only get your layout labeled beta .05 to load. I have tried manually replacing the files and running the installer again, both downloaded from your website. I have Plogue Bidule v. 0.91, which seems to have a release date of Feb 9th, which I think may be after your files were released. Could this be the problem.

Thanks

[daphy]

Sorry to keep bothering you but I can only get your layout labeled beta .05 to load.

0.5 is old, very very old :scared:

start downloading from this link (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85446) (or needfulthings (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org))you will get state we´re (meanwhile) takling about :D

[ursamtl]

Indeed, 0.5 was released in Nov. 2004, so it's quite old. No wonder you couldn't find the Movie Mode button! (it wasn't added until 0.9). The latest version of V.I is 1.1, released just a couple of months ago. Follow daphy's link or go to http://stevethomson.ca/vi for the latest version. It should work fine with v0.91 of Plogue Bidule. I use it all the time without any problems.

Regards,
Steve.

[trenz]

Wanted to say thanks and I got it working. One last question I think. After playing around and reading the couple of different threads I finally figured out how to get sound by replacing the recorder bidule with an output one. You also mentioned adding an output one in addition to the recorder. I don't know the best way to set this up. I also don't understand the meaning of duplex, asio etc. I am using a Sound Blaster X-Fi and Logitech 5.1 speakers if that helps.

Also, could you let me know which of the threads is the one I should be posting in for my questions.

Thanks

[ursamtl]

Hi Trenz,

This thread is fine for posting questions since it's related to Plogue Bidule, which is what you are using. Your X-Fi plus Logitech setup should be great for this surround stuff. Just add the Duplex ASIO Audio device. You'll see two objects appear in your bidule layout (an input and output since "duplex" means both directions at the same time). One is a box with pins on the bottom. This is your inputs, which you can just ignore for surround purposes. There should also be a box with several pins (at least 8) on its top. This is the sound outputs. Now, Creative uses a different channel order for its outputs. If it's the same as with my Audigy 2, the order is L, R, L, R (yes, repeated), sL, sR, C, LFE. Note however, that V.I's outputs follow the ITU standard of L, R, C, LFE, sL, sR. Therefore, you have to hook them up correctly. One way is to do a text connection with some audio from the file player to each output, one at a time, until you identify them.

Now, as for recording and monitoring at the same time, you can hook up the file recorder and the ASIO output at the same time, however you won't be able to go into "offline" mode in Bidule and process faster than playback speed. What I usually do is to leave both hooked up while I'm experimenting or adjusting. Then when I'm ready to process the whole file, I delete the ASIO output then switch to offline mode. If you're not sure what these are, read your Plogue help file then go back and reread the guides here.

Regards,
Steve.

[trenz]

I understood most of what you said (connecting pins, online/offline), but as you can see my box with pins facing up only has 2 pins, not 8. I figured out how to get the file player to show 8 channels but can't figure out how to get the output box to have 8 pins. If you could be so kind as to post a screenshot (I do better with pictures :o ) of your layout with the recording and monitoring hooked up at the same time I think I might just be set.
I am getting a little frustrated but everytime I think I might just give up I realize how close I am and how great it is to have forums like this to get help.

Thanks

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/trenz1/bidule.jpg

[ursamtl]

I'm at work so I can't post a pic right now, but it looks to me as if something is wrong with your setup because the Creative ASIO device should have more than two pins on its output! What other ASIO devices are listed. Try each of them.

Also, open the Sounds and Audio Devices applet in your Windows Control Panel, then go to the Audio tab and click the Advanced button. the Speakers dropdown list should say "5.1 surround." If it doesn't, then set it to that and click ok. Restart Bidule and see if this resolves the problem. another possibility is to download the free ASIO4ALL driver from www.asio4all.com. It sits on top of your Creative driver and provides multichannel output. Instead of the adding one of the Creative ASIO devices, add the ASIO4ALL ASIO device. This should give you multiple outputs and they are in the same order as the V.I outputs. I find this helpful as then I test with the output hooked up in Bidule and then when I'm ready to record, I right-click on the output device and click Replace then choose the Audio File Recorder. I then switch to offline processing and do the complete processing.

Give these a try. Most importantly, don't give up!!! With a setup like yours, the results are going to be worth it! :)

Steve.

[trenz]

OK, I am getting closer. Turns out that I needed to change the mode of my sound card. There is entertainment, gaming and audio creation modes. I usually leave it on entertainment. When I switched to audio creation and added the duplex bidule I got it and then some. 18 connectors, yikes. I tested them all and found the order of the first 6 to be L,R,sL,sR,C,LFE. The rest were different combinations of channels or silent.

I replaced the recorder and linked the connectors according to what you mentioned and what I found. (See first photo). After playing around with the settings using a test wav (Pink Floyd- Money, sounded way cool) I replaced the output bidule with the recorder choosing a 6ch recorder, but the links look different (see second photo) than the default links you had set up. Do I have to relink them or am I missing a step? Thanks so much.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/trenz1/replacedrecorder.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/trenz1/putrecorderback.jpg

[trenz]

I think I finally got it. I realized what you said in the one post about hooking both up at the same time. I saved it as a bidule called mytest. Now I can open it like this and test, then just delete the asio output, go offline, and record. I do not have to worry about linking the recorder connecters like I mentioned in my previous post. Thank you so much. I can't wait to get some of my favorite cd's created in 5.1

PS: you have been such a big help. I wonder if you could check out a post I will be making about editing a 6ch wav and help me with that problem.

Thanks

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/trenz1/ithinkthisisright.jpg

[ursamtl]

Glad you finally got it working for you. You did the connections right for the Creative driver. They do put the the surrounds before the center and LFE channels. As for you other post, I'll wait and see what it's about. If I can help, I certainly will.

Enjoy!
Steve.

[trenz]

Hey Steve. I hope I don't get tossed off the boards for bugging you :scared:
As you can see from the photo, I got the DCKiller plugin you mentioned and connected it. I ran it on a test file first and it worked great (I created a layout with just 2ch player-dckiller-2ch recorder to test, checked in EAC and offsets were 0, kool)
My question is should I leave it on the DC blocker setting or use one of the other 3?

Also, in adding this it got me wondering if the 2 plugins used in your layout (classic master limiter and mda dither, see photo) need to be connected on the layout somewhere or are they used automatically.

Also #2 Do I need to link anything else or do my links look ok (see photo)

Thanks

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/trenz1/dckiller.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/trenz1/parameters.jpg

[ursamtl]

No need to worry about getting kicked off for asking honest questions. It takes a lot more than that!

As for your questions, as far as I know, the default DC blocker setting works fine in DCKiller. The Classic limiter and mda dither plugins are both inside the 5.1 output group. You can see the connections inside this by holding Ctrl while double-clicking the group. How did these new instances show up in your picture soutside of the group, did you add them? If so, there's no need since they're already inside the group and connected. As long as you've installed the plugins and Bidule sees them, it should work fine. Obviously, if you were able new instances, they are properly installed.

So, everything looks fine. You should be good to go now!

[trenz]

I just put them up there for visual purpose so you could see what I meant.

I honestly think these may be my last 3 questions (who am I kidding:o )

1) can you batch process, ie load all 10 songs from an album that was ripped and let Plogue do it's thing

2) is there a way to automatically name the file in the recording window to the same name as the original. I always keep my output files in a different folder than my originals so having the same name would be ideal and would prevent me from having to type the name for each song (I'm a one finger typist)

3) since I use separate folders, is there anyway to stop the player and recorder from both opening to the same folder last used ie. player defaults to last folder used there (source) and recorder defaults to last folder used there (output)

I can't believe how much patience you've had helping me. I think I bring new meaning to the word "newbie". Hopefully someone else is benefiting from these posts so I won't feel so bad.

Thanks again

[ursamtl]

1) can you batch process, ie load all 10 songs from an album that was ripped and let Plogue do it's thingNot really. If you were creating surround CDs, I'd recommend cue sheets. Instead of ripping the songs individually from CD, you could rip them as one long wave file and use a cue sheet generated by the ripping program. That's beyond the scope of this thread to explain but if you check out various sites or google, you'll find lots of information. A good starting point would be http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/.

Basically, you just process the entire file as if it were one song, then burn the CD using a cue sheet. However, since you're going to create DVD-A, I don't know if your authoring program supports cue sheets. DVD-Audio creation is something I intend to investigate when I have a bit of time.

As for your other two questions, I'm afraid it's no to both. These are more related to the way Plogue Bidule itself is designed, so you might find it useful to join the Plogue forum and ask these types of things over there. The answers might be the same, but these little details of functionality might help in the development of the program. I have nothing but really good things to say about the folks at Plogue. They truly are tremendous in their support. Perhaps if you mention these to them, the functionality might be added to the program at some point.

And don't worry about being a newbie, as I wrote before, we all were at some point, and yes, your questions will definitely benefit others starting out. Just be sure to help out other newbies once you're experienced. :)

Steve.

[trenz]

I want to start out by saying I just did Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and it sounds awesome. I did however run into a problem.

The first disc I made had just hissing. In looking at the recorder part of Bidule I had bit depth set to 32 bits float. I thought this was for output. I realized it was probably for input (which was 16 bit, 44.1khz) so I changed it to 16 bit. On the 5.1 output part I left 32 bit output file? checked. Everything worked great.

Checking the files afterwards they were all 16 bit (I checked by right clicking in windows and also with my dvd-a authoring program)
You had mentioned in a previous post about the program automatically converting to 32 bit but this didn't happen for me.
Like I said earlier I am very much satisfied with the results but I wonder if I am missing something even better.
Does 16 or 32 bit really matter?

I am going to use r8brain to try converting to different combinations of 32 bit and 48khz like we talked about earlier just to see if my ears can tell the difference.

Just wanted to see if you had any thoughts about this.

Thanks

[ursamtl]

I'm glad you got some nice results. Actually, the whole 16 versus 32 bit debate is arguable from several points of view. There are those who feel that since the source is at 16 bits, converting to higher bit depths is a complete waste of time, space, processing power, etc. Then there are those whole will tell you that switching to 32-bit resolution is essential for getting the most out of audio processing. Both are right!

Will you actually hear the difference? It depends on you. It's very easy to convince oneself that one can hear the difference. In other words, if you expect a 32-bit file to sound better, it will! The only way to measure a perceived difference would be to set up some kind of double blind listening tests, which isn't all that practical in this case. When I first created V.I and the layout in 2004, I believed this conversion was essential. Now, I'm starting to question this myself.

For my own personal use, I generally convert to 24-bit, just in case there'll be any difference and also to avoid having to add dithering. My soundcard, like yours, will output 24-bit audio, as will my home theatre system. From what I've read, the difference between 24 and 32-bit audio is virtually impossible to hear so dithering is not required for 24-bit audio, whereas it is for 16-bit audio.

[trenz]

hey Steve

just want to double check my settings before I start converting a bunch of stuff.

I decided to use foobar with the DSP ssrc resampler and convert my files to 24 bit, 48000 hz

on the 5.1 output group I will leave 32 bit output checked and on the recorder I will set the bit depth to 24.

sounds good, right?

Thanks

[ursamtl]

Yes, sounds perfect.