800 MB AVIs to 1 CD ?

[juhiatti]

Write 800 MB AVIs to a single 80 min CD ????

Here is my idea:

On an 80 min CD we can record 80 minutes of audio content or 700 MB of data content.

Now do some math!
Audio is 2 streams of 16 bit data with the sampling rate of 44100. So, in one second we have:
2 * 16 bits * 44100 1/s = 1411200 bits / second = 176400 bytes / second.
In 80 minutes of audio there is
80 * 60 * 176400 bytes = 846 720 000 bytes = 826875 kB = 807,5 MB

Clearly, for the CDFS we loose about 100 MB of space compared to the audio.

On a movie disk we have: the autolauncher files, various player / codec install files,
optionally some extra features (menus, pictures etc.), subtitle files and finally
the avi file(s).

The avi file is a largest file - the file. All the other files are small. So what we have to do
is find a way to absolutely precisely write to the disk the program files and others except
the big avi file (written like CDFS). This would take up to 10 MB of disk space.

The greatest (and hardest) now : write the avi file to disk as PCM audio.

Is it possible? Yes it is! How?

Well, there is a CD format called Mixed-Mode CD. This CD contains one ISO CD-ROM track with
data on it and the rest of the tracs is audio PCM tracs.

The problem is how to convert an AVI file to PCM. This is how:
We should have an audio wave editor application with the capability of opening PCM RAW format.
But first let's see the AVIs filesize: it have to be the multiple of 75 (don't ask me why -
this is how audio data is written to the disk 31 * 75 byte blocks = 2325 bytes / sector on CD).
So, the lenght of our avi file has to be enlarged to the next multiple of 75 (so max by 74 bytes)

Make a textfile with the apropriat size and join the tho files. Now the filesize is multiple of
75 and is still a valid AVI.

Now, in our wave editing application open the AVI as PCM RAW. When asked for format settings,
it is : channels:STEREO resolution:16 BIT samle rate:44100
The audio format on a CD is the same.

When the AVI is opened save it as a WAV file. Yes! You heard me good! As a WAV file.

This resulting WAV file will be burnt on our CD's audio track.

So, on the CD there will be the prog and other files on a CDFS track,
and the avi as a PCM audio track.

Technicly, the avi could be 800 MB in size and a few megs for other data; all fitting on
one 80 min CD.

We have to find a way to force our avi player (through a filter!?) to read this PCM audio track
and treat it as a valid AVI. The problem is that I don't now how to do it.
It should work like some audio grabbing utility which sees the track as a single PCM file.
All the AVI headers are on the beginning of the PCM data. When you grab this file to a PCM file
IT IS A VALID AVI FILE AND IT'S WORKING !!!!!!!!!!

Data errors made during the recording and grabbing processes are so small, that it can't be
seen on the final playing AVI. - Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors,
or in other words - there wouldn't be any picture and sound corruption when there is just a few
bits of error. For fewer bits of error - use lower burning speeds!!!!!

There is a CDFS.VXD version allowing Windows to see the audio tracks on an audio CD as WAV files.

So it has to be modified to alow Windows to see the tracks as RAW PCM. Why?
You can't force Windows to treat a WAV file with WAV header as AVI video with a certain FOURCC.

The otherr thing is, it had to see the audio tracks as RAW PCM and the ISO DATA TRACK with
the launcher , player etc. files.

I don't know anything about coding Windows filters and virtual device drivers, but such a device
would allow us to play with MicroDVDPlayer an AVI file from a Mixed-Mode CD audio track (through
ASPI or WinNT/2k calls).

If someone can do something about this, or you have other ways to do this contact me please!!!

My e-mail adresse is : gamjuhas@ptt.yu; or juhiatti@freemail.hu .

Greetings from juhili (aka juhi).

[prr]

> Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors
LOL.
Guess what happens if AVI header has one wrong bit in image size for example. AVI files can not be compared to PCM streams.

[vitualis]

What juhiatti wrote may be possible, but probably not using the AVI file as audio.

Consider how a SVCD or VCD works on the PC...

The filesystem points to "DAT" files... However the "DAT" files are no more than the mpeg data written as separate tracks in mode2 form2 (i.e., 2324 bytes per sector as opposed to standard mode1 or mode2 form1's 2048 bytes per sector). However, these can already be read as normal files on most PCs.

Presumably, someone could create a tool to author a disc with a similar physical and logical layout as a VCD. That is, the first track has the ISO filesystem and from there it points to data written in mode2 form2 on subsequent tracks.

Regards.

[evilhomer]

this was suggested in a previous thread. you'd have to write your own ISO driver for windows or something like that if i recall. technically possible, but only with a lot of knowledge/work/knowledge

[guillep2k]

Have anyone experimented with UDF?

Guille

[ZenithalRavage]

hmm.. I think I'll just keep it to overburning, hell of alot easier :)

[guillep2k]

Well... you could get the best of both worlds... ;)

[michpan]

Or get an 800MB CD and get over with it quickly :D

[Bubba]

A couple solutions for this problem.

* 1400MB CD (i.e. double layer CD). I saw it, and it's too expensive. It was a 1400 MB CD-RW and it's something like $5 US (or more) for each. A 700MB bought in bulk (i.e. 50-CD spindle) can be low as 25 cents. Besides, I don't know current CD burner software (i.e. Nero, Easy CD Creator, etc.) can recognize and burn the full 1400MB or ???

* Use CD-ROM Data Mode 2 or CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2. "Data Mode 2" and "XA Mode Form 2" was actually designed for music, video, or graphical data. While a block in "Data Mode 1" is defined as 2048 bytes, a block in "Data Mode 2" is 2336 bytes, while a block in "XA Mode Form 2" is 2324 bytes. By convention there are 75 blocks in a second, and so:

74 minutes CD = 74 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 333000 blocks
80 minutes CD = 80 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 360000 blocks.

With the regular "Data Mode 1":
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 681984000 bytes = 650.4 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 737280000 bytes = 703.1 MB

Now with the "Data Mode 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 777888000 bytes = 741.9 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 840960000 bytes = 802.0 MB

With "CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 773892000 bytes = 738.0 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 836640000 bytes = 797.9 MB

I think when we burn VCD in Nero, it use CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2.

[vitualis]

I think you missed the point...


1.2/1.4 GB CD-R media are not standard CDs. They cannot be read on most if not ALL current CD-ROM drives.
You cannot burn data (normally) in Mode2 Form2 sectors. As anyone who has tried it will tell you, the normal limits of 650/700MB apply for user data when you burn in Mode2 (i.e., burning in Mode2 for CD-ROMs).


Thus the above speculation.

Regards.

[guillep2k]

Maybe someone could extract the method used in vcdimager, which is open source, as it's true that mode 2 data from VCDs and SVCDs can be read in standard PCs, and the data IS saved mode 2. SVCDs have 2 sessions: one mode 1, with the file directory, and one mode 2, with the data. The entries in the directory point to the data in the mode 2 track. The problem is I know no tool that does that for normal files (it could be done, that's for sure... what is uncertain is how good would it be).

[ppera2]

I suggested it before couple months. Main problem is not to writing AVI file to disk in Mode 2 Form 2 - it can be done easy with CDRWin.

By read such track you need to drop some amount of bytes, if I remember 16 at begin of sector. That requires writing of special driver for it. This driver could also handle AVI header & index area, (which is usual about 3 MB long) separated from video/audio stream. Placing them in Mode 1 area will ensure higher reability.
But my knowlidge is not enough for go further :( .

[Steady]

I agree. You need a program that splits an avi into to parts. The header and indexing is written as reliable 2048 bytes/sector data. The audio/video is written as 23?? bytes/sector audio. The program would need to recombine the index and data when reading the disk. It seems like a good idea to me. An alternative would be to use one of the more error resistant streaming formats (like asf).

The trouble is the program would have a short life. DVD recordables are not that far over the horizon. I still think there will be a need for compression, you can fit multiple shows on one disk. But I think that video's will no loanger be tied to the size of a CD. Instead it will be how many you can fit on a DVD.

[Helmut Hamburger]

thats will be excelent, u could put a whole season of tv shows, or a movie trilogy on 1 DVD-r

[theReal]

Could one maybe use the VCD burning-mode of Nero to burn that avi on a VCD-like disc?

I had a corrupt mpg recently - Nero complained that it couldn't find audio and the compression was non-standard. I chose to ignore, burned the VCD and the result was perfect, no problems at all.
Of course, it was an mpeg file, while avi is something different, but I mean, mpeg4 is mpeg as well, so maybe one could trick the progs somehow? I don't know, I'm not a programmer...

[ppera2]

theReal, as I said it's not enough to write AVI in Mode 2 Form 2 to CD.
Mpeg1/2 has blocks that fit to 1 CD sector, if it's shorter padding is used (fill rest of place with dummy data).
Therefore, if you even success to force Nero to write AVI as (S)VCD content, you will not be able to read it correct.

Other thing: I just rented Ben Hur DVD. It has 13 GB on single disk.
How do you think to copy it to DVD-R ? What will it cost ?

[vitualis]

Originally posted by ppera2
Other thing: I just rented Ben Hur DVD. It has 13 GB on single disk.
How do you think to copy it to DVD-R ? What will it cost ?

Not very likely. Even a dual-layered DVD only has a max capcity of ~9 Gb total.

Are you sure you read it correctly?

Regards.

[ppera2]

Ben Hur is on double-side, double-layer DVD. At least this, R2 edition. Movie itself has around 10 GB.

[Bubba]

I made some few research, and here what I found on the double-density CD that I mentioned before. Apparently, the double-density CD with capacity of 1.3 to 1.4 GB are Sony products, and for the moment only the Sony Double Density CRX200E/A1 can read or write to these specially formulated CD-R and CD-RW media.

Since the time I saw it at before, the price has come down somewhat. It's now $2 to $3 for CD-R and CD-RW respectively. BTW, the Sony CRX200E/A1 is a 12x/8x/32x drive and priced around $190 - $200. It's not bad a price, but I guess if your friend doesn't have this drive, then the double-density CD you put "Saving Private Ryan" in one nice CD, can only read by you. It remind me of Zip drive and superdisk LS-120 drive. One is very popular while the other has more capacity but less popular.

The newest and most promising technology for Optical Storage is coming from Calimetrics Inc. and it's called MultiLevel Recording. According to various articles I read, this technology will triple a standard CD's capacity to 2.1 GB using current available technology, and it also triple the writing speed too. Basically, MultiLevel Recording works by writing and reading marks made in 8 color gradations instead of one, thus allowing the laser to read and write information within the same space. According to Calimetrics, MultiLevel drives will be backward-compatible for both reading & writing with current CD media, and so our current CDs won't be obsolete.

If I understood correctly, with MultiLevel Recording the single-layer 4.7GB DVD will also be triple to 14.1GB ... Wow! As of now, Panasonic, Plextor, Sanyo and TDK are all on board the MultiLevel bandwagon, and Calimetrics said that these guys will have products by first quarter 2002. So I guess, it's not too long to wait. How much are these new products?... I have no idea. The new media will be around $2, and as mentioned earlier the new drive will be able to read and write the current CD-R/CD-RW.

Here's a detail article from DATA STORAGE MAGAZINE about this technology:

http://ds.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=100639&KEYWORD=Calimetrics

[vinetu]

Oh Bubba ,
We speaking-looking for hacked (rewriten) device driver like
software (like good-old hacked CDFS.sys for Windows 98 ) which will
give us more storage space on curent technologies ,and why not
on further ...
We all know that in further,CD-ROMs, RAMs, RIMMs, will go BIGGER and BIGGER...

On theme now :
I'm sure that we can burn an avi file with " juhiatti's method "
and if there is a software "driver" which will handle data from
this "audio track" (also must replace unreadable data with correct
values -"black frames" for example), all will be done .

[CavalloPazzo]

If we had an mp4 file instead of .avi should it be possible to write a CD with mode2 form 2?
on Mpeg4ip.sf.net there is a tool that convert a divx avi to mp4!

[dvdyke]

Just thought I would bring this back to the top of the discussion again as I think it's worth persuing :)

[int 21h]

Compiling this on Linux right now.. a windows version would be nice heh..

[dvdyke]

Excuse me? Do you mean you are making a CDR driver to write DiVX to 80min ISO mode 2? But only on Linux? :P If so maybe you could throw out the source code for someone to make a Win32 version.

[Taric25]

Actually, I made some more precise calculations myself

74 minutes CD = 74 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 333000 blocks
80 minutes CD = 80 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 360000 blocks
99 minutes CD = 99 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 445875 blocks

With the regular "Data Mode 1":
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 681984000 bytes = 650.390625 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 737280000 bytes = 703.125 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2048 bytes = 913152000 bytes = 870.84960938 MB

Now with the "Data Mode 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 777888000 bytes = 741.85180664 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 840960000 bytes = 802.00195312 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2336 bytes = 1041564000 bytes = 993.31283569 MB

With "CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 773892000 bytes = 738.04092407 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 836640000 bytes = 797.88208008 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2324 bytes = 1041564000 bytes = 988.21020126 MB

With "CD-DA (or whatever sector format Audio CDs use)", we have
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2352 bytes = 773892000 bytes = 746.9329834 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2352 bytes = 836640000 bytes = 807.49511719 MB
99 min CD = 445875 blocks * 2352 bytes = 1048698000 bytes = 1000.1163483 MB

Hmmm... I don't know how 800MB CDs work

Anyone up for the calculations?

[dvdyke]

Nope. All I know is that on 802MB VCD's in ISO Mode 2 it does not have the same amount of error checking as normal data thus the 100 megs more of room available. This is fine for audio and video but no good for data like .exe's or .zip's as they have to be 1000% accurate. A method has already been suggested for writing DiVX to 802MB ISO Mode 2 but no means thus far of reading them back as valid files without a driver being made that can do it.

I live in hope that someone will make one.

[CavalloPazzo]

Does someone of you know a way to write a file with mode 2 form 2. I've tried with CDR-WIN, but probably i missed something.
Ogg files have checksums, so it should be possible to write an ogg file to a CDR mode 2.
For info on .ogg file, visit www.powerdivx.com and visit Forum

[amni]

Actually, I posted this fact several times and it looked like nobody
cares, so I began to give up.

I might add few details later. The essential details are:

1)
Burning is MODE2 FORM2 single track on the CD
796MB on 1 CD 80 minutes (835000000 bytes), no overburn, no oversize,
speed tested X4,
zero errors (!!!) of binary DATA on each of burning on 6 CDRs
760MB--796MB data on each CD.
The 7 burn was a coaster but apparently because of overburning

2)
Possible to burn two tracks of MODE2, the first track FORM2, the second track FORM1. The I idea is to write in second FORM1 track
an EEC file (EEC=Error correcting code).
Unfortunaly, the second track steal about 40 MB (may be for
LEADIN an LEADOUT burning), but maybe this is a fault
of the burning software (I guess 20MB sould be enough for overhead
burning).

3) It is not simple to retrieve the burned tracks. Looks like
software fault (omit to burn a PVR header to declare the contents
and organization of the track).


By the way. Apparently --- except maybe CDDA --- RAW data means
*always* 2324 bytes per block(=2352 bytes). Some the remaining 18
bytes are used for controll (like ERROR CHECK but not ERROR CORRECTION).




Originally posted by juhiatti
Write 800 MB AVIs to a single 80 min CD ????

Here is my idea:

On an 80 min CD we can record 80 minutes of audio content or 700 MB of data content.

Now do some math!
Audio is 2 streams of 16 bit data with the sampling rate of 44100. So, in one second we have:
2 * 16 bits * 44100 1/s = 1411200 bits / second = 176400 bytes / second.
In 80 minutes of audio there is
80 * 60 * 176400 bytes = 846 720 000 bytes = 826875 kB = 807,5 MB

Clearly, for the CDFS we loose about 100 MB of space compared to the audio.

On a movie disk we have: the autolauncher files, various player / codec install files,
optionally some extra features (menus, pictures etc.), subtitle files and finally
the avi file(s).

The avi file is a largest file - the file. All the other files are small. So what we have to do
is find a way to absolutely precisely write to the disk the program files and others except
the big avi file (written like CDFS). This would take up to 10 MB of disk space.

The greatest (and hardest) now : write the avi file to disk as PCM audio.

Is it possible? Yes it is! How?

Well, there is a CD format called Mixed-Mode CD. This CD contains one ISO CD-ROM track with
data on it and the rest of the tracs is audio PCM tracs.

The problem is how to convert an AVI file to PCM. This is how:
We should have an audio wave editor application with the capability of opening PCM RAW format.
But first let's see the AVIs filesize: it have to be the multiple of 75 (don't ask me why -
this is how audio data is written to the disk 31 * 75 byte blocks = 2325 bytes / sector on CD).
So, the lenght of our avi file has to be enlarged to the next multiple of 75 (so max by 74 bytes)

Make a textfile with the apropriat size and join the tho files. Now the filesize is multiple of
75 and is still a valid AVI.

Now, in our wave editing application open the AVI as PCM RAW. When asked for format settings,
it is : channels:STEREO resolution:16 BIT samle rate:44100
The audio format on a CD is the same.

When the AVI is opened save it as a WAV file. Yes! You heard me good! As a WAV file.

This resulting WAV file will be burnt on our CD's audio track.

So, on the CD there will be the prog and other files on a CDFS track,
and the avi as a PCM audio track.

Technicly, the avi could be 800 MB in size and a few megs for other data; all fitting on
one 80 min CD.

We have to find a way to force our avi player (through a filter!?) to read this PCM audio track
and treat it as a valid AVI. The problem is that I don't now how to do it.
It should work like some audio grabbing utility which sees the track as a single PCM file.
All the AVI headers are on the beginning of the PCM data. When you grab this file to a PCM file
IT IS A VALID AVI FILE AND IT'S WORKING !!!!!!!!!!

Data errors made during the recording and grabbing processes are so small, that it can't be
seen on the final playing AVI. - Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors,
or in other words - there wouldn't be any picture and sound corruption when there is just a few
bits of error. For fewer bits of error - use lower burning speeds!!!!!

There is a CDFS.VXD version allowing Windows to see the audio tracks on an audio CD as WAV files.

So it has to be modified to alow Windows to see the tracks as RAW PCM. Why?
You can't force Windows to treat a WAV file with WAV header as AVI video with a certain FOURCC.

The otherr thing is, it had to see the audio tracks as RAW PCM and the ISO DATA TRACK with
the launcher , player etc. files.

I don't know anything about coding Windows filters and virtual device drivers, but such a device
would allow us to play with MicroDVDPlayer an AVI file from a Mixed-Mode CD audio track (through
ASPI or WinNT/2k calls).

If someone can do something about this, or you have other ways to do this contact me please!!!

My e-mail adresse is : gamjuhas@ptt.yu; or juhiatti@freemail.hu .

Greetings from juhili (aka juhi).

[CavalloPazzo]

I'd like to know which program You used(cdrwin?), and how you've burned the cd. Then I don't understand: you you can't see the burned cds, how can you say that there isn't any error?

[amni]

Hi,

I don't like to give partial details about the process of
burning, because it might
lead to confusion, therefore I might
write a guide; actually I begin writing the guide and it might
take several days.

In short: the overall format of the CD is ROM_XA
(although other formats, like MIX_MODE maybe also
usefull, but I didn't checked in depth other formats).

As I said Under ROM_XA one may use one or more tracks,
each track in format MODE2_FORM1 or MODE2_FORM2. Seems that
multissesions are acceptable by ROM_XA.
(I couldn' find a good documentation about the specifications of
ROM_XA).

I tried CDRWIN but it looks like that this program doesn't
help in mastering XA format. I don't see any way to force
CDRWIN to master in MODE2_FORM2:
when I tried, using CDRWIN, to master a binary data file
as a MODE2_FORM2 it mastered it as MODE2_FORM1 instead.

I used the program CDRDAO (WWW.SOURCEFORGE.ORG).
This program works under WIN32DOS, operates with
command lines and uses a mastering ASCII file with ".toc"
extention (something like ".cue" file for CDRWIN).

If you download CDRDAO from SOURCEFORGE, you'll get
sort of "manual" documentation for that program,
in PDF document.

I don't need any "driver" to read the burned tracks.
Essentially, the program ISOBUSTER extracts the tracks
from the burned CD. I tested the errors in burning as follows:
I created ZIP files with CRC numbers built in them
(using the program WINDOWS COMMANDER). After extracting
the burned tracks --- I run a CRC test on the extracted files.



Originally posted by CavalloPazzo
I'd like to know which program You used(cdrwin?), and how you've burned the cd. Then I don't understand: you you can't see the burned cds, how can you say that there isn't any error?

[CavalloPazzo]

Ok, thanks. I'll wait for your guide, but I think that the fact that only isobuster can read the track should be solved. Do you think it's possible?

[amni]

Hi

I'm not CDR programmer, therefore i can only make some
intelligent suggestions.

My guess is that the solution is fairly simple.
My guess is based upon examining a VCD which I bought
(printed VCD not burned).
This VCD is in ROM_XA format, first track MODE2_FORM1,
second and third tracks are MODE2_FORM2 (including the videos).
When I insert the VCD in my CD ROM, the videoes are listed
as plain files (with ".dat" extention).

So my guess is that a good ROM_XA mastering software
can create for any file (or even for any folders tree)
an ISO image file with "MODE2_FORM1" header or
"MODE2_FORM2" header;
when burrning that ISO (e.g. by CDRDAO) these headers
will tell the CDROM about the organization of the
binari data files which are included
in the ISO image file (the same was they tell the CDROM
about organization in VCD).

I know about a "candidate" which can do that job (I don't know him
personnally in any way !!!), his name is Herbert Valerio Riedel
and he is developing VCD mastering program under GNU
(GNU is the freeware organization which supports LINUX
freeware, GCC compiler PHP and other zilion freeware projects).
I think that a minimal mastering program for ROM_XA might
take him very short time, so maybe he might accept a short
pause in his VCD mastering project
his home page is WWW.GNU.ORG/SOFTWARE/VCDIMAGER.



Originally posted by CavalloPazzo
Ok, thanks. I'll wait for your guide, but I think that the fact that only isobuster can read the track should be solved. Do you think it's possible?

[amni]

I just test if my registration to this forum was not canceled
by mistake.

Also, more good news will be announced after
thorough testing.
Hint: reading the burned 800MB CD might be very easy.


Originally posted by amni
Hi

I'm not CDR programmer, therefore i can only make some
intelligent suggestions.

My guess is that the solution is fairly simple.
My guess is based upon examining a VCD which I bought
(printed VCD not burned).
This VCD is in ROM_XA format, first track MODE2_FORM1,
second and third tracks are MODE2_FORM2 (including the videos).
When I insert the VCD in my CD ROM, the videoes are listed
as plain files (with ".dat" extention).

So my guess is that a good ROM_XA mastering software
can create for any file (or even for any folders tree)
an ISO image file with "MODE2_FORM1" header or
"MODE2_FORM2" header;
when burrning that ISO (e.g. by CDRDAO) these headers
will tell the CDROM about the organization of the
binari data files which are included
in the ISO image file (the same was they tell the CDROM
about organization in VCD).

I know about a "candidate" which can do that job (I don't know him
personnally in any way !!!), his name is Herbert Valerio Riedel
and he is developing VCD mastering program under GNU
(GNU is the freeware organization which supports LINUX
freeware, GCC compiler PHP and other zilion freeware projects).
I think that a minimal mastering program for ROM_XA might
take him very short time, so maybe he might accept a short
pause in his VCD mastering project
his home page is WWW.GNU.ORG/SOFTWARE/VCDIMAGER.

[SonicFRAG]

This is by far the most interesting topic I've seen with the most potential!
Indeed it seems that there HAS to be a way to burn multimedia files (in this case DivX) in mode 2 form 2 (or to fit 800Mb on an 80min CD)
as most logic and reason seems to point to a way of doing so.

How many people are familar with the Dreamcast scene?
Dreamcast games come on 1GB GD-ROMS and so to copy a game to a normal CD things would need to be ripped out.
Enter Shenmue II.
I looked at my copy (80min CD-R) and looked at the contents of the CD. In my computer it came up as 647Mb CD.
Further inspecion with Neros session selector indicated 2 seesions, the first one being 100Mb and the second session being 700Mb. (total, just over 800Mb)

Interesting?
Furthermore, I could look and copy at the contents of the CD to my HD as if they were burnt in mode 1!

Also note, The original .CDI image file was over 800MB!
Looking at the Discjuggler setting (of the .CDI file) it was burnt as mode 2 AUDIO.

But how to master a CD in this way?? Certaintly I can't select mode2/XA form2 in the mastering/burning options in Discjuggler.....

All we need is a program that can burn mode2 form2, or at least make it think its an audio or video CD when instead it has a DivX video on it.....

comments?

[amni]

Of any binary data as XA mode2 form2.
Sorry I'm a bit busy, but I'll publish something usefull soon.

Maybe you don't realize that there are two problems:
"burning" and "retrieval": I guess the "standard CD drivers" of
can't retrieve XA mode2 form2 as simply as they retieve CDROM mode1, or CDROM CDDA, or XA mode 2 form1 (the last case is
read similarly to CDROM mode1 data).

I heard (not confirmed) that the two tracks method
(one track mode2 form1 second track mode2 form2)
is sort of trick to make the mode2 form2 track readable via
a "pointer" in the mode2 form1 track.
Any way, I don't see any special reason why such trick
can't be appllied for any binary data file in the second
mode2 form2 track; looks like burners software don't
think this is something usefull (I do, because sometimes
a man needs the extra 13 percent store in the CDR).

Currently I can retieve XA mode2 form2 only using the program
ISOBUSTER (no trick needed); I thought I can do better but I was
wrong (so far).



Originally posted by SonicFRAG
This is by far the most interesting topic I've seen with the most potential!
Indeed it seems that there HAS to be a way to burn multimedia files (in this case DivX) in mode 2 form 2 (or to fit 800Mb on an 80min CD)
as most logic and reason seems to point to a way of doing so.

How many people are familar with the Dreamcast scene?
Dreamcast games come on 1GB GD-ROMS and so to copy a game to a normal CD things would need to be ripped out.
Enter Shenmue II.
I looked at my copy (80min CD-R) and looked at the contents of the CD. In my computer it came up as 647Mb CD.
Further inspecion with Neros session selector indicated 2 seesions, the first one being 100Mb and the second session being 700Mb. (total, just over 800Mb)

Interesting?
Furthermore, I could look and copy at the contents of the CD to my HD as if they were burnt in mode 1!

Also note, The original .CDI image file was over 800MB!
Looking at the Discjuggler setting (of the .CDI file) it was burnt as mode 2 AUDIO.

But how to master a CD in this way?? Certaintly I can't select mode2/XA form2 in the mastering/burning options in Discjuggler.....

All we need is a program that can burn mode2 form2, or at least make it think its an audio or video CD when instead it has a DivX video on it.....

comments?

[SonicFRAG]

Just wondering if anyone has come up with a way of putting 800mb on an 80min cd?
All these great ideas in this thread, must have come to something???

amni, any progress??

[amni]

Originally posted by SonicFRAG
Just wondering if anyone has come up with a way of putting 800mb on an 80min cd?
All these great ideas in this thread, must have come to something???

amni, any progress??

I've done this, and tested 6 disks with zero errors.
I'll publish *soon* the methods (at least the essential part soon).

I should comment that the method is a bit clumsy (it proves
feasabilty but only CDR software programmer may
create a friendly software). "Fiendliness" means that one can
read the burned file systems directly (eg, reading right from
WINDOWS EXPLORERE). In my method, one can read only via
programs like ISOBUSTER.

[CavalloPazzo]

Have you tried asking some developer about this? Do you know if somene is working on a such program?

[movmasty]

since the dvd is 4.7gigs, and begin to be writable
would be more simple to realize a double CD, 1300mb
i think that will be more simple and cheap than a double layer of same size.

normal CDs cant really go under 25c,just for commercial reasons
a double CD of 1300mb, will soon reach that low price
and will be always very cheaper that dvd-r.

is some year that i hear about double-cd circulating in Asia,
anyone knows about this??

see also the CD size pool that i started here

[amni]

I mentioned in this thread a specific person
(the developer of VCDEASY, or the developer
of VCDIMAGER, I think).
Who can give a nice solution to the
problem of "reading directly" the burned stuff.

In principle, this might be a solution not different
from reading VCD CDs from computer
(you can read files with extention like ".dat"
consisting of movies as if they are plain data files,
although they are in MODE2 FORM2 format).

I didn't write to him since I didn't write as yet my guide
to my method of burning.
I don't believe that he will even start writing anything
before repeating my experiments (no body start
any "developing initiative" without having
serious evidence that the target which wants to achieve
is *feasible*, my method is such "feasibility evidence").

Sorry, I can't at this moment finish my guide.
There is not much to finish the basic guide but I'm so
much troubled with other thinks that I can't
even write this simple post.

I'll try to finish my basic guide this week, but can't
promise.

Originally posted by CavalloPazzo
Have you tried asking some developer about this? Do you know if somene is working on a such program?

[int 21h]

Originally posted by SonicFRAG
This is by far the most interesting topic I've seen with the most potential!
Indeed it seems that there HAS to be a way to burn multimedia files (in this case DivX) in mode 2 form 2 (or to fit 800Mb on an 80min CD)
as most logic and reason seems to point to a way of doing so.

How many people are familar with the Dreamcast scene?
Dreamcast games come on 1GB GD-ROMS and so to copy a game to a normal CD things would need to be ripped out.
Enter Shenmue II.
I looked at my copy (80min CD-R) and looked at the contents of the CD. In my computer it came up as 647Mb CD.
Further inspecion with Neros session selector indicated 2 seesions, the first one being 100Mb and the second session being 700Mb. (total, just over 800Mb)

Interesting?
Furthermore, I could look and copy at the contents of the CD to my HD as if they were burnt in mode 1!

Also note, The original .CDI image file was over 800MB!
Looking at the Discjuggler setting (of the .CDI file) it was burnt as mode 2 AUDIO.

But how to master a CD in this way?? Certaintly I can't select mode2/XA form2 in the mastering/burning options in Discjuggler.....

All we need is a program that can burn mode2 form2, or at least make it think its an audio or video CD when instead it has a DivX video on it.....

comments?

Shenmue II was 3 or 4 cds when it was copied from the original GD-ROM.

[MaTTeR]

Tronic and Ingo, coders of the upcoming MCF file format have been looking into this as well. It seems a problem comes up when trying to extract the MCF data from the CDROM XA. Windows and Linux are unable to see the CDROM in a filesystem sort of way.

Anyone aware of some sort of driver hack or driver project that would allow the CDROM to be seen as a filesystem? It seems were close but some nasty obstacles keep jumping in the way.

[movmasty]

you are missing somethin,
that is to know if a given file format can work w/o error correction.

mpg format works like a plain text file, if there is an error,you'll lose just one character or few characters, all the rest will be ok,
unless you loose a part of the header.

avis work like a program, if you loose one bit,you loose all.
and it isnt just about the header, but along all the file.

now,dunno exactly about SVCD,but VCD,that is 172kB/s(140video+28 audio)can last at max 64 minutes on a 650mb-74minutes CD,
then its written in mode 1.

The fact is that when there is audio mpeg files lose their magic,
due to audio/video sync issues mpeg files too are easy to get corrupted.
Es: virtual dub never fails to load a video only mpg,but very often fails to load mpgs with audio.

thus you could have pcm audio or mpg video only in mode 2,
dont think video+audio streams.....unless someone makes a better audiovideo syncronization.....and then some other writes a new burning option....

[MaTTeR]

@movmasty

The error correction is understood by everyone in this thread. We can get around that issue just using the MCF file format or by other means.

At issue is how to extract the data from a M2F2 CDROM type? According to Tronic, ISObuster is format specific.

[int 21h]

You would have to either formulate a new driver for Windows for the CDRom, or more likely, formulate an emulation program that can read the CD (similar to Daemon tools, etc)

[avih]

assumming we're willing to live without error correction, isn't there any way to use vcd/svcd format to store arbitrary files??? it's easily read by standard pc-cdrom.....

[movmasty]

>assumming we're willing to live without error correction, isn't there any way to use vcd/svcd format to store arbitrary files???

>The error correction is understood by everyone in this thread...
....oh :eek:

[avih]

i didn't miss that post movmasty :) and i used the word assumption..., anyway, i wanna try for myself what does it mean "without error correction" i.e. will it still be playable after 1 playback? 2 playbacks? 50/100/1000 whatever.

i wanna experiment, but i (as others afaik) haven't yet managed to put an arbitrary file on a svcd file format.

avi

[hyc]

You'll probably find that you will need to use the highest quality gold-colored CD-Rs if you try this, certainly your error rates will go up as the disc ages.

[ppera2]

I thinked about this way of recording AVI's about one year ago.

But now, looking to my CD collection I must say that it is not worth.
Many CD is hard to read, and without error correction it will be disaster after couple years...