miniDV Backup - DVD

[brh124]

I capture my DV (FOURCC:dvsd) through firewire to my HD. This puts AVI files of varying lengths <20 mins on the drive. I can burn the AVI files to DVD+R single layer. One disc runs a bit over 20 minutes.

This type of archive to DVD works great too for final AVI movies that I've made with edits, transitions, effects and such. Remember to include nat clips, WAV and project files on the disc. Then I have the raw video backed up on one or more disc and the project on another DVD.
Here's my question:

1) Using DVD-ROM(UDF) mode, which UDF file system should I choose for max compatibility with set-top console DVD players?? The files on the DVD disc use the DV dvsd encoding.

[communist]

Originally posted by brh124

1) Using DVD-ROM(UDF) mode, which UDF file system should I choose for max compatibility with set-top console DVD players?? The files on the DVD disc use the DV dvsd encoding.
You can choose anything you want - I dont know of any standalone DVD players that can play DV streams. There are some that play MPEG4 streams but not DV.

[brh124]

I don't want to convert the stream to anything else. I'd like to leave the raw cuts in the native form for editing down the road or for changes in encoder/encoding, etc.

The player I tried was Philips DVP642. It showed me the disc menu of my DVD+RW that had 3 AVI files. When I pushed play it showed "No Codec" Philips tech support said that firware upgrade would fix the problem.

The reason I want to know more about this is for watching my backup and edited DV projects on a stand alone DVD player. DVDR in Canada is now about $ .40 a unit. One hour = $1.20. miniDV tape is $7 - $10 per hour or so. Tape is probably the better "long-term" storage but I seem to have no problems with storing/retrieving AVIs on DVD and it is quicker/better access than tape. Also mixing tape brands could cause problems with my little Samsung DV cam.

I was using ISO9660 until SP2 told me that ISO9660 doesn't support files > 2G. Although I have backups on DVD disc larger than 2G using ISO file system. So now UDF 1.02 1.50 2.01 2.50 wtf? Should I post in DVD Hardware Players ??

[Ark]

As far as I know there's NO standalone DVD-player that can play DV format, and probably never will be, but there are many DVD-Recorder with firewire dv in, but that's only for simple "DV to DVD" operations.

If you want to view your edited video on a DVD-player, you have to make a DVD (:)), or at least use a format that a standalone DVD-player can read like MPEG4, but you can put this only on a CD-ROM...

[communist]

Originally posted by brh124
I don't want to convert the stream to anything else. I'd like to leave the raw cuts in the native form for editing down the road or for changes in encoder/encoding, etc.

The player I tried was Philips DVP642. It showed me the disc menu of my DVD+RW that had 3 AVI files. When I pushed play it showed "No Codec" Philips tech support said that firware upgrade would fix the problem.
Leaving it DV is good for what you want. However I've never heard of firmare upgrade enabling a DVD player to play DV streams. If that really works with your model then you could do this...

[brh124]

If I were pro and used DV-25 or 50 what sort of backup systems would I be using. What do you "pros" use and what is the capture media. Like 3CCD, media formats, capacities, transfer rates. How do you back-up.

Firewire is supurb for transfer. HDD with 8 mg cache good transfers. Editing on p2.4c. I can take my AVI from DVD disc and take it back to the camera with no lost DATECODE,etc. So I go from tape to HDD to DVDR to HDD to tape,,,

My edited movies Ok whatever format the player can read. What is it about DV stream? Are there any quality "native capture" stream that can transfer quickly from disc <--> tape without loss and play on consumer video equipment. XBOX!! DVD-RAM camera is 20 times compression.

[bb]

Originally posted by Ark
[...]If you want to view your edited video on a DVD-player, you have to make a DVD (:)), or at least use a format that a standalone DVD-player can read like MPEG4, but you can put this only on a CD-ROM...
You can put your MPEG-4 film (or multiple films) on a DVD, too, and play it back on your MPEG-4 capable DVD player just as you would do with a CD.

bb

[theReal]

If I were pro and used DV-25 or 50 what sort of backup systems would I be using. What do you "pros" use and what is the capture media. Like 3CCD, media formats, capacities, transfer rates. How do you back-up. I think you mean DVCPRO 25 or 50? I guess you'd be using DVCPRO tapes for backup, or, if you needed quick access, a harddrive RAID array.
The pros don't record and watch the tapes on their camcorder, they use seperate standalone tape recorders (you can get a small one for DV/DVCAM starting at 1500$ but you can also spend 20-30 times of that on the more professional DVCAM/DVCPro/DigiBeta models...)

I don't think anyone privately uses another format than MiniDV, be it a cheap consumer camcorder or a more expensive prosumer model like the Panasonic DVX-100A or the Canon XL1. Of course if I had a lot of money to burn, I'd prefer a nice DigiBeta Cam (anyone want to give me 100,000$ for the eqpuipment, please? ;) )

Saving your DV avis on DVD-R is a good way to back up your video, some people even back up their raw material on DVD-R/+R because it's quick, inexpensive and doesn't (ab)use the camcorder's video heads - but you'll probably never be able to play back DV avi on a standalone DVD player (unless you have a very specialized one which I'd also like to buy immediately!)

[ultrabrutal]

An Xbox with XboxMediaCenter should be able to play back the DV avi's from the DVD media

[brh124]

Thanks for you replies. ultrabrutal - have you tried to play DV-avis on your Xbox? Have you moded it? I'm not very familiar with Xbox. I don't own one - can I go and purchase an Xbox with XboxMediaCenter?

Still wondering about the filesystem on the DVD itself. There are several versions of the UDF filesystem. And, several partiton types. I notice "Force DVD-Video compatiblity mode (required for Xbox TM)". Which fs does the xbox play?

Also, how can I be certain the disc will be readable on my computer when I go looking for it sometime down the road. Nero reports successful burn, the disc looks good, but if this is my ONLY archive, how do I know I have a copy that will be readable next month, next year, etc,,,

[pomo]

i don't own an x-box either but i'm pretty sure this needs modding.

but if I understand correctly you want to test-watch your edited movie on a television ?
in that case "simply" connect your TV to your computer, any recent graphics card should have a video-out connector that you can plug into your television.

hope i didn't miss the point :)

[brh124]

Posted in Hardware Player forum Link (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84632)

Looks like data rate too high for conventional set-top players (probably including XBox, even modded - yet to confirm though). Thanks for your replies.

DVD is still my choice for backing up my miniDV AVI clip files. I've found that I'm not alone and this works for others. Tape is still a good choice of course. What I found is DVD is better/quicker/easier/cheaper than dragging my camcorder out and sifting through my tapes to find what I want. I guess if I catalogue my tapes with timecode and use EDL with my editing software that would work too - but I'm lazy ;-)

[BifWarrior]

brh124,

I have the same thought as you regarding backing up my video to DVD+Rs as straight AVIs. However, I have a problem with this.

It sounds like something very simple to do, but its baffling me. Here's the breakdown:

1. Capture 1min of miniDV footage using Sony Vegas 5 via firewire (as a test file).

2. Do a simple copy to a CD-R (for now, DVD+R later) since the 1min file is only 200-300MB. Copy utility is Nero 6 Ultra using the Burning Rom app.

3. Play the AVI from the CD-R on the same computer that I captured the video from. WORKS GREAT!

4. Since I want to be able to retrieve the file and edit in the later years, I need to make sure its compatible with other systems. Should be an obvious "YES" since its an AVI, but its not.

5. Tried playing CD-R on my laptop (700MHz, 512MB RAM, WinXP Pro SP2, WMP 10, WMPClassic, BSPlayer) - Video/Audio stutters badly and video goes in and out. BSPlayer and WMPClassic are better but still stutters fairly badly.

6. Tried playing CD-R on my HTPC (1800MHz, 512MB RAM, WinXP Pro SP2, WMP 10) - Same as #5.

7. Tried playing CD-R on my work laptop (2000MHz, 1000MB RAM, WinXP Pro SP2, WMP 10) - Same as #5.

8. Gave CD-R to my colleague to try on his laptop. Same system as mine so I don't know why I would've thought it would've worked, but I tried.

9. For sanity's sake, I re-tried the CD-R back on the system that I captured the video from (1500MHz, 512MB RAM, WinXP Pro SP2, WMP 10) - Played perfect!

I just can't understand why this happens. I'm running out of HD space and I'd like to make sure the AVI on my DVD+R will be 100% playable on any system I have in the future (afterall, I'm doing this for future use).

Lastly, I've tried the exact same thing capturing as Type 2 AVI with WinDV. Exact same problem.

[communist]

Originally posted by BifWarrior
5. Tried playing CD-R on my laptop (700MHz, 512MB RAM, WinXP Pro SP2, WMP 10, WMPClassic, BSPlayer) - Video/Audio stutters badly and video goes in and out. BSPlayer and WMPClassic are better but still stutters fairly badly.

6. Tried playing CD-R on my HTPC (1800MHz, 512MB RAM, WinXP Pro SP2, WMP 10) - Same as #5.

7. Tried playing CD-R on my work laptop (2000MHz, 1000MB RAM, WinXP Pro SP2, WMP 10) - Same as #5.

8. Gave CD-R to my colleague to try on his laptop. Same system as mine so I don't know why I would've thought it would've worked, but I tried.
700 Mhz & Laptop CD-drive might be just not fast enough for DV playback (D1 res / 3,5 MB/s).

As for the other machines not playing them fluently. There shouldn be a problem if the CD-drives etc. are fast enough. But then again you dont want to edit straight from CD/DVD-R do you?
Just copy the file back to your hdd and it should work. I've never encountered such thing called 'AVI degradation' after burning them to CD/DVD-R.

In fact I just tested some ancient DV avi files I burned almost a year ago directly from DVD-RW and after some initial stutter (drive spinning up) they worked perfectly on my brothers computer (XP2400+ / 16x DVD / 512MB RAM).
And the other computer here plays them fine too (XP2000+ / 512MB RAM / directly from HDD).

I dont have any slower machine available to test DV playback but if anyone with a slower computer wants to report on the speed issue I can upload some small test files.

[theReal]

Sounds like the CDR doesn't play well on all the other computers. Plays fine in the burner that burnt it, but not in other drives...try better media or burn slower and you should be fine.

[BifWarrior]

Thanks for the ideas. Here's what I've tried recently:

I copied the test.avi file onto the laptop (700 MHz one) as suggested by 'communist' and played it. I got it to run fine using mplayer2.exe (Media Player v6.4). Still no luck with WMP10, BSPlayer, or MPClassic.

Here are the things I plan on trying in the next couple days:

* Burning slower onto the CD-R medium.
* Creating a test.avi file using my work laptop (2GHz one)
* Ask a colleague at work (who is also into Video Editing) to create a test.avi file and see if it works on multiple computers.

Go from there...

[bb]

I guess the problem is reading from the CD-R, not the DV AVI itself. You can easily test that: copy the AVI file to the HDDs of your test systems, and play it from the HDD. Should play fine on all systems. WMP is crap, by the way.

bb

[BifWarrior]

Update...

I took the same test.avi job from my desktop and burned it to a new CD (same brand, but at a slower speed - from 48X last time to 16X this time).

Playing the CD on my work laptop, I noticed a difference. The video no longer flashes, but just plays slowly.

I then copied the file from my CD to my HDD and played it (again on my work laptop). Played perfectly. The ONLY thing done differently was I burned the CD at a slower speed and I don't recall playing the file from the actual computer (always from the CD).

I tried the same thing with my laptop. Still didn't play right, but at this point, I'll chalk it up to being a 700MHz system. Besides, its not likely I'll have a slow system like this in the future.

I'm glad I have something to go with...Thanks for everyone's help (I'm normally impatient and it irks me when I can't get something working quickly).

[ronnylov]

If you are going to backup to DVD+R, why do you test it with CD-R then? DVD+R may (or may not) read faster than CD-R in the same drive. But as already mentioned you should copy it to the harddrive when you want to use the files for editing.

[bb]

BifWarrior,

there might be a hardware problem, too: Please verify whether the CD-ROM drives operate in DMA mode or not. PIO modes eat much more CPU and are thus slower.

bb

[BifWarrior]

ronnylov,

I have a ton of CD-R (back when I thought I'd burn mp3 discs) and therefore, I thought I'd start with smaller test files (200MB or so) before going to the larger 2GB files using DVD+Rs.

bb,

I'll have to check the DMA or PIO mode. One thing is for sure, I don't know what my laptop settings are because its a DELL LATITUDE D400 with an external (and howswappable) DVD-ROM/floppy. The connection to the laptop looks like it consumes 2 USB slots (although on this connection, one of the two USB slots is not a standard USB connection).

Hopefully I didn't confuse anyone.

And yes, I think going forward I'll always copy the AVI file to the HDD to later view and edit.