German DVB-C Quality compared to DVB-T

[Inc]

Hi!

I just got since 2 Weks a Technisat Airstar2 DVB-T card and I was just shocked which bad quality is broadcasted!
720x576 at avg 2500 (where btw at 2500kbit its possible to enode in a much better quality compared to that broadcasted crap).
The quality of these DVB-T Streams was confirmed by the DVB-T Dvbviewer Forum to be the regular poor quality. I posted Screenshots there.
Not mention interlaced or fieldblended (Voyager) broadcastings!

Well, now I wanna know if DVB-C! also gots that poor quality.
I know that DVB-S Streams got more kbits in avg, so IF my Tv provider offers Digital broadcasting via Cable (in Germany called Kabel, maybe in the US "cable" is something different), can I expect a better quality via DVB-C compared to DVB-T.

A Satellite hardware/dish is no issue as the owner of the house wont permit that.

Thanks in advance
Inc.

[Kika]

If you are shocked by the Quality of DVB-T, you will be shocked by DVB-C too. It's slightly better, but not much. Even at DVB-S you will find some very crap broadcastings.

A Satellite hardware/dish is no issue as the owner of the house wont permit that.

Use a balcony SAT antenna if possible, the house owner can't forbid that (in germany). ;)

[Inc]

Even I got a big appartment I havent any balcon, only a nice view to a forest *lol

But anyway thanks a lot for your information and Ill see straight forward to the next year when they "could" feed the analogue broadcastig using a signal based on DVB origins. *shock
Till then I prefer my 7134 capt Card. :)

[Ishan]

Well I got Digital Cable here in france, haven't seen any DVB-T streams yet but I can say the quality is relatively good on DVB-c.
Most channel use a somewhat crappy and very smoothed 720x576@3.5mpbs encodes (like general channels I never watch :) ) and most cinema oriented ones are at something like 560x576@5mbps and looks very good (not a dvd thow) and sharp, no blocking, good sound (MP2@320kbps even 384 on some channels)
I even got some general channels (like 2 of the national chan) wich are 720x576@8mbps but capped from crappy composite sources :D or an HDTV chan (euro1080) wich is very badly encoded 1920x1088@10mbps :|
So it looks DVB-c is a bit better :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

If European digital cable is anything like UK cable. Most of the content sent down the pipe originates from DVB-S and DVB-T sources.

So after further re-processing by the DVB-C distributors, it's highly likely that the Mpeg2 stream suffers from further degradation.


Cheers

[Ishan]

My provider (Noos) use DVB-s feeds but they reencode them most of the time, but it looks most of the movie chan are feeds in directly. They seems to recompress general channels to a lower bitrate and i can understand that :) it means better quality for all those movie chan.

[Inc]

Hi SeeMoreDigital,

Still I got luck that my cable TV Provider "ISH" in Cologne does provide a non-DVB origin analogue source so my analogue caps do come out much better related to Artefacts (as there arent anyone;-) ).

Yesterday I got from that "ISH" Provider a DirectMailing containing the offer that I could enjoy DVB-C now via Cable.
I know that there are Cards like Cablestar from technisat which are supporte by DVDviewer which I do know and like from my DVB-T Airstar2 from Technisat.

If you wanna see some pics of that DVB-T Quality you can see it here:

http://forum.gleitz.info/attachment.php?attachmentid=68420

http://forum.gleitz.info/attachment.php?attachmentid=68422

http://forum.gleitz.info/attachment.php?attachmentid=68423

http://forum.gleitz.info/attachment.php?attachmentid=68441

I think thats a joke related to the advertising of the DVB-T Page in Germany "Do gain from the best digital Video and audioquality you never have seen before when using DVB-T"

All the streams did come in 720x576 non-anamorph at an avg of 2500kbit and max bitratepeaks at about 5500kbit.

Interlaced streams do come out somtimes even worsed due to more bitrate needed at interlaced encodings.

So I do assume that maybe that DVB-C Quality wont be better as also mentioned by Kika.

:(

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi incredible,

Yes, you guys are lucky in Germany that you still have a massive network of local and national analogue channels. Much of it distributed by satellite either, direct to home satellite users or to ground based stations for redistribution by the local cable company.

My wifes parents live near Cologne, in Kall to be exact and they receive all their TV via analogue cable, and if I remember correctly, it's fed directly into the back of their TV.

My parents, who live in a medieval hill top village in northern Spain also receive their TV via analogue cable, fed directly into the back of their TV. Although they now have a SkyDigital set up as well.

Over here in the UK, analogue cable TV has always been passed through a set top box, even the main five channels that are not encrypted. Needless to say all digital cable TV is encrypted in NagraVision (for NTL). So there's no market for DVB-C cards here (although I would not mind experimenting... if you know what I mean!)

When it comes to local TV, we don't have anything like the channel set-up you guys have in Europe. All our local TV is broadcast for a few minutes every day during the national news on BBC1 and ITV1 (and sometimes a 30 min slot afterwards)... it's an incredibly poor service really.

Anyway, that's enough about us for the moment....


Cheers

[Ishan]

All I can say is : DVB-c is far better than DVB-t if I refer to your screen cap :)
some channel looks blocky and very smoothed out like the 2nd and 3rd one but it's rarely worse.
i'll try to do some screen cap myself for you to look at :)

[mb1]

Bitrate test showed that DVB-C mostly has the highest bitrates. DVB-S is sometimes as high as DVB-C but often it is around 5% lower.
DVB-T is extremely poor at the moment with avg between 2500-2700 kbps and peaks between 5500-5800 kbps.


Here is for example the bitrate part of a ProjectX log for "The Big Store" (Die Marx Brothers im Kaufhaus), full frame b/w, 1941 sent with 720x576@25fps:

-> video length: 119602 frames @ 01:19:44.080
-> GOP summary: min. 20, max. 24 fields; contains interlaced frames
-> avg. nom. bitrate 5580984bps (min/max: 1941200/8502000)

That's from "Kabel Deutschland" company in Munich. With these bitrates there is not much need to buy DVDs :D

[Kika]

@mb1
Yeah, but Cable != Cable in Germany. I depents on the region where you are living in.
I have seen lot's of samples from DVB-C now, and some of them aren't that good as your sample.

But, OK..., since my last Posting here i got some new samples (from Kabel München too) and i must say: They are very good.

[Inc]

Thanks for your reply mb1!

Could you recommend a dvb-C card ?
(Yep, I could use the "search" function in here but my telecom germany provider doesnt provide a tolerable speed to use this forum :( )

I heard a lot good things about the technisat products, thats why I choosed my DVB-T airstar2 from technisat. Also they do got a "cablestar" one.

Cause I would like to switch to DVB-C then and sell my DVB-T card if I see that the quality of german DVB-C does come out like you mentioned above :)

Thanks in advance
Inc.

[mb1]

Depending on your cable company you likely won't have private tv stations in your digital signal. But that is no problem for me because I hate commercials or cut-off end credits ...

Recommendation for DVB-C card, hmm. Personally I have a Hauppauge DVB-C with hardware decoder chip (Price 18 months ago 225 Euro :rolleyes: ).
But for simple stream recordings you don't need a full featured card.

incredible, what is your cable company?
If you like we both could stream a special movie or news and compare our bitrates. Maybe a third person will stream the sat signal.
(maybe "Basic Instinct" today?)

Bitrates aren't always that high like in my example above but mostly I can live with the quality provided.
Since some structure changes some weeks ago (KDG Home and similar) especially bitrates in most third programs have risen to a good level (peaks around 8 mbps are absolutely normal).

[Inc]

incredible, what is your cable company?
If you like we both could stream a special movie or news and compare our bitrates. Maybe a third person will stream the sat signal.
(maybe "Basic Instinct" today?)

Yep, Id like to!

My Cable Provider is called "ISH" and its the one who provides in the area of cologne. I just received a Directmailing as mentioned above from ISH related to their Digital TV service via Cable. I figured out that there arent any of these Pro7, Sat1, RTL channels but as you said above they dont provide them?? Hmmmmm.... But on DVB-T they do ... strange.

What time and Channel "Basic Instinct" starts?? Remember I only can offer you a DVB-T Stream and there the Bitrates everytime (in my cases) de come in ca. AVG 2500kbit and about 5500kbit peaks.

Best regards
Inc.

EDIT:

I saw some offers at Geizhals ...
http://www.geizhals.at/deutschland/?fs=dvb-c&x=38&y=16&in=

- KNC One
- Cinergy 1200 DVB-C

and the Cablestar from Technisat ...
http://www.dvbteam.com/shop/index.php?main=details&id=53
(Nice page where also other DVB Devices are shown)

[mb1]

"Basic Instinct" today starts on ZDF, 22.15 (tomorrow 0.20 with full end credits and higher bitrate ;) ).

I'll stream it today for this test purpose.

I don't know in special about ish DVB-C bitrates but they can of course differ a lot from KDG Munich's. So better inform yourself on that particular topic.
Would be best if you can find someone with ish DVB-C which streams the movie also ...

Or maybe
Technotrend PCline Budget for 89,90 Euro
http://www.dvbshop.net/product_info.php?products_id=44&osCsid=a132c135263442b95cee1d8388e32806

Some Infos on DVB-T bitrates:
http://www.dvd-svcd-forum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18827

[Inc]

Ok mb1, ... Ill do try :), AS yesterday the first time I got massive problems getting a "non stuttering" signal value for ZDF (about constant 75%)!
All other channels got a 95-100% signal, last week ZDF also got no problems so I dont hope they've switched something or so.

Nice interesting threads you pointed to!
Ill have a look into the www.ish.de web site and I do hope they got a contact option where I can get some infos about Bitrates and the Channels if they do broadcast RTL, PRo7 etc. --- if not then, ... grrrrrrrrr

EDIT: I downloaded the PDF Channel list of Digital TV from ISH and no german private Channels like Pro7 etc. are offered :(

[mb1]

Data of my stream can be found here (page 2):
http://www.dvd-svcd-forum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19504
Others have streamed the movie, too.

[Ishan]

I personnaly recommend Technotrend products, I got a TT DVB-c premium (something like 240€ on usa-x.org 2 years ago :) ) but if I was to do it again, i'll got a budget card, cause i nearly never use the hardware decoder (i'm using MyTheatre mostly, this progy rocks).
I'm thinkin of doin a VDR box with my card and buying a budget card for my main computer :)