Mutli - channel lossless?

[daphy]

Hi folks,

I oftern wonder whether is it possible to make lossless multichannel files (no 6 channel PCM file, of course ;) )
So I start searching around the wide, wide world (www :D ) and found this:
WavPack is a completely open audio compression format providing lossless, high-quality lossy, and a unique hybrid compression mode. Although the technology is loosely based on previous versions of WavPack, the new version 4.0 format has been designed from the ground up to offer unparalleled performance and functionality.
In the default lossless mode WavPack acts just like a WinZip compressor for audio files. However, unlike MP3 or WMA encoding which can affect the sound quality, not a single bit of the original information is lost and so there's no chance of degradation. This makes lossless mode ideal for archiving audio material or any other situation where quality is paramount. The compression ratio depends on the source material, but generally is between 30% and 70%.

The hybrid mode provides all the advantages of lossless compression with an additional bonus. Instead of creating a single file, this mode creates both a relatively small, high-quality lossy file that can be used all by itself, and a "correction" file that (when combined with the lossy file) provides full lossless restoration. For some users this means never having to choose between lossless and lossy compression!


WavPack 4.0 Features:
Compatible with virtually all PCM audio formats including 8, 16, and 24-bit ints; 32-bit floats; mono, stereo, and multichannel; sampling rates from 6 to 192 kHz

Multiplatform support including Windows, Linux, and OS X

Instantly seekable and streaming capable

Error-tolerant block format conducive to hardware decoding

Optional "asymmetrical" mode for improved compression

MD5 audio checksums for verification and identification

Unique hybrid mode (provides high quality lossy + "correction" file)
Hybrid mode now operates as low as 2.25 bits/sample (or 196 kbps for CD audio)
Free and open source with easier to use library interface and unrestrictive license (BSD)
Intuitive command line interface (with wildcards and destination directory)
Small, efficient executable (no large programs or dlls to install)
Fully backward compatible to WavPack 1.0
Self-extracting archives (Windows only)
Complete piping support
complete source (http://www.wavpack.com/)

What do you think about this one?
Have you experiences with multichannel support on wavpack?
Is it possible to replay multichannelfiles directly with DS-filters?
Are there other solutions avaible?

Hope your in the mood to discuss this theme :p

[ursamtl]

This sounds great in theory! We'll have to check it out.

[Sycho]

doesn't FLAC support lossless multichannel?

[ursamtl]

My understanding is that FLAC supports multichannel in theory but no one has actually implemented it.

[Kurtnoise]

Originally posted by daphy

Is it possible to replay multichannelfiles directly with DS-filters?
No...Wavpack doesn't have DirectShow filters.

Originally posted by daphy

Are there other solutions avaible?
Yes...first, The True Audio Encoder (TTA) (http://www.true-audio.com/). This format has DShow filters support to encode and/or decode. It's made by Toff :cool: Second, WMA Lossless with the MediaEncoder 9 Series or dbPowerAMP.

[daphy]

sounds interesting
The multichannel incoming data can be subjected to intra-channel decorrelation. As an example, for two-channel data the two of original channels are transformed to mean and difference channels by the next formulas: mean = (first + second)/2, difference = first - second. For the sake an excluding of data loss these formulas should be converted to: difference = first - second, mean = first - difference/2. For multichannel data with good correlation between neighbor channels, this procedure usually gives considerable enlargement of compression rate.
True Audio Encoder

True Audio encoder (TTA) is a simple real-time lossless audio compressor based on adaptive prognostic filters which has shown the same or the better results comparing to majority of modern analogs. Our main requirements to compressor development was the reasonable compression level and high operation speed.


Down to 30% lossless audio data compression
Real-time encoder/decoder algorithm
Fast operation speed and minimal system requirements
Can be compiled and executed on several different platforms
Free and open source code and documentation
TTA performs lossless compression on multichannel 8,16,24 bit's integer and 32 bit's IEEE floating-point data of the Wav audio files. Being "lossless" means that no data/quality is lost in the compression - when uncompressed, the data will be identical to the original. The compression ratios of TTA depend on the type of music file being compressed, but the compression size will generally range between 30% - 70% of the original. TTA format supports both of ID3v1 and ID3v2 information tags.

Using True Audio encoder you can to store up to 20 audio CD from your collection on one single DVD-R for playback, keeping all of CD information in a popular ID3 information tags.

At now the main of our goals is not a reaching of a maximum compression rate. Our purpose now is the encoder algorithms optimization for easy hardware implementation.

did I understood this right: I could feed the encoder with a 6 channel WAV from f.e. a bidule project? :rolleyes:
sh**t, can´t check this out :sly: I am at work at least the next ten hours... :(

[Kurtnoise]

Originally posted by ursamtl
My understanding is that FLAC supports multichannel in theory but no one has actually implemented it.

I've tested the FLAC encoder with 4 differents multichannel samples...Everything is ok for playback. And no problem for encoding.

[daphy]

I've tested the FLAC encoder with 4 differents multichannel samples
some further questions:
file size - how much space do you save? :rolleyes:
source - do you use a simple 6 channel WAV? :rolleyes:

[daphy]

okay I checked it myself:

file size - how much space do you save?
source - do you use a simple 6 channel WAV?

my sample was 4.06min -> size 6WAV 277MB

TTA:
98MB :rolleyes:

using another project file while creating a new 6wav from the same song ended up again 277MB

TTA:
200MB :confused:

DirectShow filter Support:

the only way I found to replay is via foobar2000, all the other apps strike :(
I tried two diffrent DS-Filters, first TTA´s own (http://www.true-audio.com/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=12&MMN_position=31:31) and than the one from Radlight I found a while ago (both on needfulthings) :(

@ Kurtnoise13
Which one did you use

[Kurtnoise]

my samples are extracted from DVD Live Show. Most of them are in AC3 format. So, I use BeSweet to transcode in Wave_6ch.

Tonight, I'll try to post some multichannel comparisons between FLAC, TTA, WMA9LSL and Wavpack. I hope to have the time otherwise I'll post tomorrow ;)


the only way I found to replay is via foobar2000, all the other apps strike
I tried two diffrent DS-Filters, first TTA´s own and than the one from Radlight I found a while ago (both on needfulthings)
:( For me, all is ok. Samples play fine in foobar, WinAmp (with the plugins) or MPC and TCMP (with the filters). For TTA, I use these one (http://www.matroska.org/tta/).

[Kurtnoise]

Hi,

Here is my quick tests.;)

They have made with a Pentium 3 800mHz and 512 Mo RAM.

Explanations:
Encoding Speed = Sample Duration (30s) / Encoding Time
Decoding Speed = Sample Duration (30s) / Decoding Time
Ratio Compression = filsesize of compressed file / filesize of original file


How to understand the tables : the more Encoding Speed value is low, the more Encoding Time is long. The more Decoding Speed value is high, the more Decoding Time is short.The more Ratio Compression is low, the more the file is compressed.

General Comments : these tests are just for information and to observe mainly the ability of the codecs to compress/decompress and the speed about multichannel samples.The most interest to use lossless multichannel format is to play them with standalone players. Actually, only TTA is supported by a standalone (Neuston (http://www.true-audio.com/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=7&MMN_position=26:21). But for my part, I haven't tested this...For the playback on PC, all these formats are of course supported. If you like WinAmp or foobar2000, there are some plugins to play directly these lossless format.In addition, there are some DirectShow filters for TTA (http://www.matroska.org/tta/) and FLAC (http://corecodec.org/projects/coreflac/) too.

Tools & Links:
• Wavpack (http://www.wavpack.com/) + Speex Frontend (http://members.home.nl/w.speek/wavpack.htm)
• TTA (http://www.true-audio.com/) + TAU Producer (http://aucd.true-audio.com/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=10)
• FLAC (http://flac.sourceforge.net/) + Frontend (http://members.home.nl/w.speek/flac.htm)
• WMA9 lossless with dbPowerAmp (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm) + codecs (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central-wma.htm)


Sample 1 :
Original Source : EIFFEL – Tu vas loin (Live aux Eurockéennes de Belfort DVD) ~ AC3_6ch 448kbps 48kHz ~
Sample Source : AC3_6ch --> Wav_6ch with BeSweet v1.5b29

http://kurtnoise.free.fr/misc/eiffel_results.gif

Comments:
this sample song is a kind of Pop Rock.(Guitars, Drums, Bass & song). TTA and Wavpack (with Normal option) are the fastest for encoding. WMA9 Lossless is the slowest. For decoding, FLAC is the first. The best ratio compression is for Wavpack with "High" option.




Sample 2 :
Original Source : MICKEY3D – La peur (Live à St Etienne DVD) ~ AC3_6ch 448kbps 48kHz ~
Sample Source : AC3_6ch --> Wav_6ch with BeSweet v1.5b29

http://kurtnoise.free.fr/misc/mickey3d_results.gif

Comments:
this sample is extract from rock song.(guitars with distos & strong beating Drums). WavPack (with Normal option) and FLAC (with level 5) are the fastest for encoding. TTA is near. For decoding, FLAC is first. The best ratio compression is for Wavpack with "High" option.



Sample 3 :
Original Source : Pink Floyd – Mother (The Wall DVD) ~ AC3_6ch 448kbps 48kHz ~
Sample Source : AC3_6ch --> Wav_6ch with BeSweet v1.5b29

http://kurtnoise.free.fr/misc/pinkfloyd_results.gif

Comments:
this sample corresponds to the Gilmour solo guitar for "Mother" song. WavPack (with Normal option) and FLAC (with level 5) are the fastest for encoding. TTA is near. For decoding, FLAC is first. The best ratio compression is for Wavpack with "High" option.




Sample 4 :
Original Source : Portishead – Regardless (Live in Roseland DVD) ~ AC3_6ch 448kbps 48kHz ~
Sample Source : AC3_6ch --> Wav_6ch with BeSweet v1.5b29

http://kurtnoise.free.fr/misc/portishead_results.gif

Comments:
Beth Gibbons singing + Drums, keyboard, Guitar. WavPack (with Normal option) and FLAC (with level 5) are the fastest for encoding. TTA is near. For decoding, FLAC is first. The best ratio compression is for Wavpack with "High" option.

That's all...:p


PS:: I can upload the samples if somebody want make the tests by itself.

[jpl]

Thanks for doing the compare, one question though.

For sample 4 the values in the table are inconsistent with the comments. Were the results for WavPack Compression Ratio switched between the "Normal" and "High" options?

JPL

[Kurtnoise]

Originally posted by jpl
For sample 4 the values in the table are inconsistent with the comments. Were the results for WavPack Compression Ratio switched between the "Normal" and "High" options?

Yep...sorry. It's fixed now ;)



I've also added the Tools & Links paragraph.

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by Kurtnoise13
I've also added the Tools & Links paragraph.Kurt, interesting results. Thanks also for taking the time to go back and add the extra info to your post. This is something I wish everyone would do. It helps those of us who come along later on and read threads.

[Sycho]

wouldn't that be an inaccurate way of doing the compasion, as it was coming from a compressed source? the codeders behaive differently, looking for different things for perdiction and so on, it you had a ture uncompressed multichannel master, it would be different results

[Kurtnoise]

Originally posted by sycho
the codeders behaive differently, looking for different things for perdiction and so on, it you had a ture uncompressed multichannel master, it would be different results
yes for sure...but actually I haven't uncompressed multichannel master. So, if you have it, test for yourself and post your results ;)

[daphy]

creating an uncompressed master isn´t that difficult - use plogue with a normal PCM WAV and a project file out of the archiv :o

[planet1]

Originally posted by Kurtnoise13
No...Wavpack doesn't have DirectShow filters.

thx to Toff this has changed now:

http://corewavpack.corecodec.org/



regarding other multichannel-lossless solutions:

-Afaik MPEG-4 ALS (Audio Lossless Coding) will be finalised this year :p.

-Shouldnt we just all "dump" WMA LossLess for this purpose ? :devil:

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by ursamtl
My understanding is that FLAC supports multichannel in theory but no one has actually implemented it. Is there a way to check the properties of this 6Ch FLAC test file (http://82.2.167.237/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/6Ch_FLAC_Lossless_Test_01.7z), created using Foobar2000?


Cheers

[guada 2]

beautiful work .

" thx to Toff this has changed now:

http://corewavpack.corecodec.org/ "

[planet1]

updated to 1.0.1

http://corewavpack.corecodec.org/

Notes: Fix 2 regression bugs : - Decoding lossy and hybrid files. - Decoding files with 32 bits float

[Elias]

I'm not sure about this, but doesn't DTS have some kind of a lossless format called DTS++?

[planet1]

and yet again - a new release:

CoreWavPack 1.0.2 (http://corewavpack.corecodec.org) introducing a nifty info-box. :cool:

[planet1]

Originally posted by Elias
I'm not sure about this, but doesn't DTS have some kind of a lossless format called DTS++?

If that should be the case (?maybe hybrid?), which i doubt, it would hardly be "efficient" (like MLP or MPEG4 ALS).

[Elias]

Originally posted by planet1
If that should be the case (?maybe hybrid?), which i doubt, it would hardly be "efficient" (like MLP or MPEG4 ALS). What's MPEG4 ALS? If I'm not mistaken, DTS++ will be used in HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

[planet1]

MPEG-4 ALS (http://www.nue.tu-berlin.de/forschung/projekte/lossless/mp4als.html) is MPEG's lossless audio answer based on LPAC and will most likely be used in the mp4 container. The format is to be finalised in 2005.

The prospect of having AVC + ALS (music videos, multichannel concerts) on the next generation disc format is simply "great" :p .

[Kurtnoise]

We can make already good things (AVC + ALAC into mp4 container by example) but not multichannels...;)

[Elias]

Originally posted by planet1
MPEG-4 ALS (http://www.nue.tu-berlin.de/forschung/projekte/lossless/mp4als.html) is MPEG's lossless audio answer based on LPAC and will most likely be used in the mp4 container. The format is to be finalised in 2005.

The prospect of having AVC + ALS (music videos, multichannel concerts) on the next generation disc format is simply "great" :p . Now this was awesome. But I must say though, I don't see the point with it because LC AAC and ASP are already great :)

[planet1]

Isn't ALAC a proprietary format of Apple - which should have the same "specs-legitimacy" as vorbis in mp4 ?

[planet1]

Originally posted by Elias
... I don't see the point with it because LC AAC and ASP are already great :)

So you think LPCM-DVD's (or future discs with lossless sound) are unnecessary ?

[Elias]

Originally posted by planet1
So you think LPCM-DVD's (or future discs with lossless sound) are unnecessary ? No, they're great. Fact is, lossless rules. But it's nothing I will use for private encoding due to the fact that it takes a lot of space. However, on DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray etc, why not? MPEG should aim for creating a lossless video codec similar to ALS. You know, like huffyuv but much better.

[planet1]

If I had to choose between StandardDef lossless video and HighDef lossy - i'd pick the latter.

Maybe YUV 4:2:0 wont be the maximum on the NG-Disc but rather YUV 4:2:2 ... (afaik avc even has a 4:4:4 profile):D