Matroska Packs v1.0.3 released

[Liisachan]

Originally posted by cweb
Bugs are bugs anyway. True, maybe Gatest will fix it someday. But now I'm afraid Gatest seems to have little time to code, not only for filters, but even for MPC, and now MPC in def settings cannot play MKV from MKVToolnix 0.9.5. So, I'd say theres a long way to go fix the total situation.
On the other hand, Haali is making awesome and audacious alt-alt filters,
http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/
including sub renderes, and I heard he was even going to support USF someday. Thatd be great.

Obviously supporting win98 is preferable, but VSFilter is not the only way. Altho I do hope Gabest will be back working on his filters as he did last year, no one has rights to force him to.

Anyway, plz check haali's filters too, in case you didnt...:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80762

[Hiro2k]

Originally posted by cweb
Bugs are bugs anyway.
I still use win98 and will keep using it until I switch completely to Linux. Linux is more than 7 years old yet it is still supported by many!

Linux is not 7 years old. Please don't tell me your still using a 2.2 kernel! Linux is constantly being updated by the developers. Linux has been around for more than 15 years, but that doesn't mean we still use 15 year old software. Fundamentaly Linux is just the kernel and it is always being updated. I would agree with you if they had never updated the kernel, but that is not the case. IIRC the kernel is currently at version 2.6.8 and 7 years ago it was still on the 2.2 branch.

[Chainmax]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
robux4 cant answer personally, so i will. We recently considered removing any decoder from the lite pack completely, for sure we wont add CoreAAC, due to possible license problems in some countries.

CoreVorbis was added because Vorbis is the only modern, lossy and patent free audio compression format we know of ( Wavpack to come soon ), and we wanted the lite pack to not only be small, but also to be 'clean' from a legal point of view. CoreAAC, as mentioned above, is not .....
Ok then, what about one last release with the newest CoreVorbis then? The version included in the pack is from 20031215 and the latest version is from 20040823...

[cweb]

Originally posted by Hiro2k
Linux is not 7 years old. Please don't tell me your still using a 2.2 kernel! Linux is constantly being updated by the developers. Linux has been around for more than 15 years, but that doesn't mean we still use 15 year old software. Fundamentaly Linux is just the kernel and it is always being updated. I would agree with you if they had never updated the kernel, but that is not the case. IIRC the kernel is currently at version 2.6.8 and 7 years ago it was still on the 2.2 branch.

I'm using a 2.6 kernel! It's still Linux though. It hasn't been called something else or completely scrapped. Different kernels aren't different operating systems (while 98 and XP are different OSes with different philosophies, no doubt about that!). Also, there is an upgrade path between kernels which doesn't have to involve reformatting, or complete system reinstallation.

[Hiro2k]

Originally posted by cweb
Bugs are bugs anyway.
I still use win98 and will keep using it until I switch completely to Linux. Linux is more than 7 years old yet it is still supported by many!

I'm still refering to this post, the way you wrote it sounds like your comparing Linux and Windows98. Linux is still being updated and Windows98 is not. The reason Linux is still supported by many is because it's not a dead OS with no future.

[cweb]

Originally posted by Hiro2k
I'm still refering to this post, the way you wrote it sounds like your comparing Linux and Windows98. Linux is still being updated and Windows98 is not. The reason Linux is still supported by many is because it's not a dead OS with no future.

I wasn't comparing anything. I just replied to your post.
Many people and organisations / institutions still run win98SE perfectly well and have no intention to upgrade to XP because of the expenses involved in updating large numbers of workstations (including in labs). Of course this doesn't count those people who will run pirate copies of XP but that is not legal at all and should not be done IMHO. Hey I got to know of a company still running Windows 95 on its PC's!

Linux is an open upgrade path, it doesn't 'kill' you off like some other OSes and updating can be done bit by bit if you want. No need to start from scratch. Stil, I don't care if you think win98 is dead, so what if it works, it works and those of us who use it will keep using it. I myself will use it probably until I switch everything over to Linux.

I apologise for letting this thread go off course... this has nothing to do with the thread subject and bug reports on all os's ARE on-topic, I may add. And if Matroska is open source as I think it is, it does not matter too much if a developer doesn't have time to cater for win98, if some else will eventually submit a patch/bugfix etc (or someone will have an alternative implementation like the one mentioned earlier in the thread).
Matroska should not in my opinion neglect win98 users because it may make Matroska look less reliable to anyone trying it for the first time (though it isn't!). At least make a warning, "THIS DOES NOT WORK on WIN98" so they don't try to run it. Funny thing is, previous versions worked and still do work. Also, Media Player Classic's built in splitter works perfectly and it's what I use.
Just to make it clear, any site or resource promoting the use of Matroska for its media will have users with problems getting it to work, if they run win98, so it will have to explain to them that they are excluded.

[Mosu]

Originally posted by cweb
Linux is an open upgrade path, it doesn't 'kill' you off like some other OSes and updating can be done bit by bit if you want.

Not really the point. My mkvtoolnix would not run on the Linux software that was current seven years ago (!).

Let's see. I'm using SuSE Linux as an example here. 1997 (back when Windows 98 was released) SuSE's release was... well... I have no clue! Let's ask Distrowatch: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=suse

Interesting. The oldest release they've included is 5.2 from 1998/03/23 (they've mentioned earlier releases, but those don't include the program versions, so I'll just skip them). It uses gcc 2.7 (yuck), a Kernel 2.0.3x etc.pp. There were no media players, glibc was still libc5 (ancient), no FLAC, no Vorbis, no nothing. So you might get a glimpse why we don't think supporting OS that old is really worth our time if the time spent analyzing the bug includes setting up a sepperate Windows 98 installation, finding your way into someone else's code etc.

And if Matroska is open source as I think it is,

Correct.

it does not matter too much if a developer doesn't have time to cater for win98, if some else will eventually submit a patch/bugfix etc

Well, one thing that is harder than fixing bugs in your own source is fixing bugs in someone else's code. Gabest doesn't have the time to do that, so please don't expect us to fix stuff in OS we don't use anymore ("we" being the Matroska developpers).

We're ALWAYS happy about patches. If someone fixes this bug then you can be sure we'll either try to get Gabest to release a new version with that bug fix included (which he has done in the past with other stuff we've sent his way), or we might release a new build ourselves (which we've done as well).

[Vincent Vega]

matroska 1.02-1.03 mmswitch+WMP10+video with mono audio track= ;-(

seems like there is a lil problem with these. i have some avi and mpg movies with MONO (mp3 and mpg) audio tracks and they do not play properly in the above configuration. i've already mentioned this matter in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82209) of "software players" section thinking it was WMP10's fault but after some experimenting it appears that its caused by matroska mmswitch version. unregistering it solves the problem. btw simply disabling it in the player doesnt, only unregistering.

but i really need mmswitch. and other versions like mmswitch099 original or 097 dont work with WMP10 at all. so i was wondering if its possible for Matroska Pack authors to write a new WMP10 compatible mmswitch version to fix this issue.

PS also i've been always wondering what is this "damaged or incompatible plugin disabled" message appearing in WMP9 and 10 once in while regarding mmswitch099 even in the case of using the supposedly fixed matroska version. perhaps someone could shed some light on this for me too.

thanks a lot in advance

[Chainmax]

I take it that an updated version of the Lite pack with the latest CoreVorbis is out of the question then?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Chainmax
I take it that an updated version of the Lite pack with the latest CoreVorbis is out of the question then?

Be patient young padawan, be patient :D .....

If we are releasing a new pack, we are currently producing about 250 - 300 GB of traffic / month. Please understand we wont do that just because CoreVorbis was updated ;) ....

[Chainmax]

I wasn't asking for a release but rather a confirmation on wether the newest CoreVorbis would be included in the next release. I'm glad to hear it's being considered :).

[Cyberman]

Originally posted by Liisachan
and now MPC in def settings cannot play MKV from MKVToolnix 0.9.5.

MPC(Media Player Classic, right?) has it´s own MKV splitter, so it´s no wonder it doesn´t work. You have to deactivate it.
Were it the other way around(splitter deactivated by default), many MKV files wouldn´t work.
Matroska isn´t yet at a stage where the typical Windows-Dummy-User can play them without any knowledge of anything at all, IMO.

Originally posted by Mosu
So you might get a glimpse why we don't think supporting OS that old is really worth our time if the time spent analyzing the bug includes setting up a sepperate Windows 98 installation, finding your way into someone else's code etc.

What about Win2K? I understand that Win9X is too old, and, more problematic, a Dos-based system, but Win2K will be considered old sometime(soon?) as well - but I´m quite sure I won´t EVER switch to XP.

[Mosu]

Originally posted by Cyberman
MPC(Media Player Classic, right?) has it´s own MKV splitter, so it´s no wonder it doesn´t work. You have to deactivate it.

Due to guys wanting "sample precision" for audio files in Matroska I chose to make the segment duration a 64bit float instead of a 32bit float. This worked perfectly fine on all Linux implementations of Matroska, but the two Windows only implementations (Gabest's Matroska splitter and his MPC as well as Alex Noé's AVIMux GUI) didn't handle 64bit floats. I waited for both products to be updated with support for 64bit floats before releasing 0.9.5

But still this was a bad decision on my part. First, I didn't think Gabest would NOT find the time to at least update MPC, too, after we've sent him the necessary patches (and those were small!) for the standalone Matroska splitter. Second, it still broke playback for all existing installations forcing users to update.

0.9.6 reverts to 32bit floats and only uses a 64bit float segment duration if the file contains only audio tracks -- because that's where guys want sample precision. Any file containing video created with 0.9.5 should be easily remuxable with 0.9.6 (just add the file in mmg, chose a different output name, hit "start") and work with MPC again.

What about Win2K? I understand that Win9X is too old, and, more problematic, a Dos-based system, but Win2K will be considered old sometime(soon?) as well - but I´m quite sure I won´t EVER switch to XP.

One of the major differences between Win2k and newer and Win9x/ME is that the latter lacks Unicode support. So I guess that W2K support will continue for quite some time as the same splitter is used on XP and 2K. ("Guess" because I'm certainly not the one developping it.)

[Liisachan]

Originally posted by Cyberman
MPC(Media Player Classic, right?) has it´s own MKV splitter, so it´s no wonder it doesn´t work. You have to deactivate it. Yeah, our installer (mainly for lazy anime fans) v0.93 (http://park14.wakwak.com/~flower/mkvinst_093_test7.exe) will automatically deactivate it, so you don't have to tweak MPC's settings manually.

Matroska isn´t yet at a stage where the typical Windows-Dummy-User can play them without any knowledge of anything at all, IMO. True. So the above-mentioned installer is going to automatically associate .mkv and .mka to MPC (if found) or to WMP, so users can play mkv files just by clicing the icon... People are lazy, and I am lazy too (dont want to answer the same questions 1000 times)

[pixolex]

Originally posted by Liisachan
Yeah, our installer (mainly for lazy anime fans) v0.93 (http://park14.wakwak.com/~flower/mkvinst_093_test7.exe) will automatically deactivate it, so you don't have to tweak MPC's settings manually.

True. So the above-mentioned installer is going to automatically associate .mkv and .mka to MPC (if found) or to WMP, so users can play mkv files just by clicing the icon... People are lazy, and I am lazy too (dont want to answer the same questions 1000 times)

Even if the settings from MPC are in the ini file?!

[Liisachan]

Yes. If mplayer.ini is found at the location specified in
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Gabest\Media Player Classic
then the installer will tweak that .ini file too.

These are just ad hoc hacks while waiting for a newer MPC.

[Cyberman]

Originally posted by Mosu
One of the major differences between Win2k and newer and Win9x/ME is that the latter lacks Unicode support. So I guess that W2K support will continue for quite some time as the same splitter is used on XP and 2K. ("Guess" because I'm certainly not the one developping it.)

Ah yes, Unicode. Nowadays, that alone would be a reason to switch from Win9X...

It´s good to know that Win2K will be supported for some time, because I fear that future Windows versions will continue the Teletubby interface...
(Which, apparently, cannot be disabled completely, as the "new" icons are used everywhere...)

Originally posted by Liisachan
Yeah, our installer (mainly for lazy anime fans) v0.93 will automatically deactivate it, so you don't have to tweak MPC's settings manually.


I see.
Does it know which version of MPC the user´s using, btw? Because it might happen(in the future) that an old Matroska Pack might disable the newer MPC splitter.

[Liisachan]

Originally posted by Cyberman
Does it know which version of MPC the user´s using, btw? Sure. If the filetime of mpc is newer than the current one, it'll ask you if you want to tweak it anyway.

[goweropolis]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
If we are releasing a new pack, we are currently producing about 250 - 300 GB of traffic / month. Please understand we wont do that just because CoreVorbis was updated ;) ....
Have you guys considered using BitTorrent? It's pretty simple really. It would definitely save bandwidth and it would allow non-programmers like myself to help.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by goweropolis
Have you guys considered using BitTorrent? It's pretty simple really. It would definitely save bandwidth and it would allow non-programmers like myself to help. .. too complicated for at least 95% of our normal users i'd guess ....

[Hiro2k]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
.. too complicated for at least 95% of our normal users i'd guess ....

Not that I promote piracy, but 95% of your users get your packs to play videos they get from Supernova or some other P2P program :rolleyes: . I'm sure everyone has heard of BT by now.

I think it would be a good legit use of the technology. I suggest that you at least have the option for BT link available. I'm really sure that it would save your bandwith if you asked people to choose the BT link over the direct link. Aditionaly you could release updated packs and with more frequency.

[celtic_druid]

Could also have a 2d2k link, it is probably already on the network.

[Liisachan]

Just so you know. :)

Originally posted by Nibor
CoreFLAC Decoder v0.4.0.46 (2004-08-17)

This version info is correct. The Pack 1.0.3 has CoreFLAC 0.4, which is very important because CoreFLAC 0.3 has a crtical bug that you cannot rewind the MKV/MKA when reaching the end of the file.

However, the installer says it is going to install CoreFLAC 0.3 beta 4 in the "Choose Components" box. ReadMe (http://packs.matroska.org/Matroska_Pack_Full_v1.0.3_ReadMe.html) says "CoreFLAC Decoder v0.3-Beta4 2003-12-06" too, which is not a correct version info.

In reality, the Pack has v0.4--good working version--so there is no practical problems, but this is confusing especially for users who know that annoying bug in 0.3.

How about at least revising that ReadMe on the website?

[Kurtnoise]

Matroska Pack 1.1.0 is out ;)


The matroska team released version 1.1.0 of their 'famous' playback packs for M$ DirectShow, allowing playback of MKV/MKA files on Windows using such players. It can be found at the usual place at http://packs.matroska.org/

Here a list of supported formats :
* DivX 3/4/5
* XviD
* WMV7/8
* H.264

but the pack also adds playback support for

* Vorbis using FFDShow (for Ogg Vorbis audio files, install also the Ogg Splitter
from Tobias Waldvogel or illiminable, or use MPC's built in splitter )
* AAC and AAC+SBR (HE-AAC) audio, using FFDShow
* AC3 audio, using FFDShow
* FLAC lossless audio, using FFDShow
* Wavpack a great lossless audio codec supporting hybrid mode
(with + without loss) ; installed are wavpack decoder and parser, for .wv files
* TTA another lossless audio codec
* Subtitles, using vsfilter (DVobSub)

The previous version, 1.0.3, was downloaded about 850,000 times, all together we had 1.3 Million downloads since the packs were started with version 1.0.1.

Changes to previous version :

- Haali's matroska splitter is now used, instead of Gabest's splitter, including
* integrated audio stream switcher ( mmswitch.ax has been removed )
* splitter for MP4 and extended AVI container ( to be activated in setup menu )
- CoreVorbis, CoreFLAC and CoreAAC have been removed, ffdshow is decoding
these audio types now also

Have fun

Christian
matroska project admin
http://www.matroska.org

[jk888]

Excellent news! And I almost thought Matroska support had died out! I'm glad playback support has come back strong as ever.

I think this new update deserves it's own separate post!

[jk888]

I am disappointed that ffdshow was chosen as the default decoder for all AVC videos. ffdshow still doesn't fully support Nero AVC, the video quality it noticably shitty when compared to using Nero's own decoder. Things go berserk once you turn on the Postprocessing in ffdshow, the video looks worst than VCD.

Postprocessing is an esstential part of AVC, using it makes a huge difference in quality. That's what makes Nero's decoder really stand out.

Can we have AVC decoding default to Nero's decoder instead? Just until ffdshow can match the same level of quality.

[buzzqw]

afaik only nero showtime can decode avc using nero decode ax

no one player can access nero dshow filters

(if i am not wrong)

BHH

[stephanV]

Originally posted by jk888
I am disappointed that ffdshow was chosen as the default decoder for all AVC videos. ffdshow still doesn't fully support Nero AVC, the video quality it noticably shitty when compared to using Nero's own decoder. Things go berserk once you turn on the Postprocessing in ffdshow, the video looks worst than VCD.

Postprocessing is an esstential part of AVC, using it makes a huge difference in quality. That's what makes Nero's decoder really stand out.

Actually you are wrong: the last thing you should do is using post-processing with AVC. It has inloop deblocking for a reason. If you can post screenshots/sample files where there is a noticeable difference between Neros decoder and ffdshow (without pp FGS) I would like to see them. Decoders should in principle always show the same output, so if there is any its a bug that should be fixed. There is AFAIK no mentionable difference between Neros or ffdshows AVC decoding capabilities.

[niamh]

Pamel has now opened a new thread for the new pack :)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94628