legal question

[tommazzo]

Hi guys!

I'm running a web site about the region of Austria I live in, on which I frequently post some self-created videos about that region. Until version 5.2 I've always encoded these videos with DivX Pro, since DivX Pro has now however gone completly commercial I started thinking about alternatives. The first one that came to my mind was XviD.
To make life easier for the visitors of my site I also intend to distribute my own XviD build directly on the site.
That brings up two questions for me:
1. Am I allowed to distribute my own XviD binaries?
2. Am I allowed to distribute videos encoded with XviD?

In case it could be of importance, even though I,live in Austria my site is hosted in the US.

I'd be really glad if anyone could help.
Thanks already in advance!

[sysKin]

First of all, despite using XviD you might set avi's fourcc code to DX50 and let your users decode it with divx. In fact divx will decode xvid by default, so you might even keep whatever fourcc you want.

Second, XviD is Free software so yes, you are free to distribute it. You should just make sourcecode freely available (and the easiest way of doing it is putting it on your site).

There is, however, the problem of mpeg-4 licenses. You should go to http://www.mpegla.com/mpeg4v/ to find out the details - but as far as I know, you are allowed to distribute a limited number of mpeg-4 decoders, and you are allowed to distribute (but not broadcast.. or something like that) mpeg-4 content.
But I don't know any details and I might be wrong.

However it's definitely easier just to recommend your users to install divx. Will work perfectly.

Radek

[tommazzo]

Thanks for your fast answer!
Since I do not only intend to include the XviD decoder, but the comlete XviD package (including the encoder) I'm not really sure if I'd be on the safe side. About the DivX decoder I must say that I would somehow prefer to place a direct download on my web site for easier use (and that can only be done with XviD), since I know of some of my site's visitors to be just the opposite of a computer genius and thus I want to keep things as simple as possible for them.

One more thing:
Let's suppose that I am allowed to distribute XviD binaries but not XviD encoded movies. If changed the fourcc to DX50, which can also be decoded by XviD would I then not have to worry about the fact that I initially encoded the video with XviD?

[MfA]

syskin, no you need a real contract for that ... in countries where the patents are valid you are screwed, neither use nor distribution of xvid is legal.

[tommazzo]

Originally posted by MfA
in countries where the patents are valid you are screwed, neither use nor distribution of xvid is legal.
Here the only question is, in which countries are the patents valid?

[bond]

there are two things you theoretically have to pay for:

1) for the technology used, which is mpeg-4, to the ones who developed the technology (the patent holders, represented by mpegla)
2) for the codec developers. in the case of xvid you dont have to pay anything to the devs

so only the patents are left:

Originally posted by tommazzo
Here the only question is, in which countries are the patents valid? in austria they definitely are

still you should follow syskins link to mpegla and checkout whether you have to pay mpeg-4 licenses or not (i assume there are some limits, under which you dont have to pay anything)

[tommazzo]

OK I read through that MPEG LA page and found out that any product using the MPEG 4 video technology has to be licensed in order for anyone to use it (something I could have guessed and in fact did guess before reading that page :D ). But since XviD isn't licensed no one is sort of allowed to distribute either binaries or encoded videos.
[This information is provided as without warranty, it is based on solely my interpretation of the information presented on the MPEG LA web site.]

But since I'm not really interested in buying DivX Pro (I've always liked DivX Pro, but since I do not intend to pay $20 for it, I'll whether I like it or not have to stop using it), would it also not be in accordance with MPEG-4 patents if I encoded a video with XviD, then changed the fourcc to DX50 and let my site's visitors decode it with the standard version of DivX?:confused:

[bjorn toulouse]

The problem with encoding in DivX pro or otherwise is not the cost of the codec, its the cost of the lisence to "distobute DivX encoded content" i.e. if you encode a film using DivX they will wan't $1,500 a year in order for you to show it. I haven't got all the way through the contract yet but there are other limitations I havent got my head round yet.

[tommazzo]

Originally posted by bjorn toulouse
its the cost of the lisence to "distobute DivX encoded content" i.e. if you encode a film using DivX they will wan't $1,500 a year in order for you to show it.
As far as I always understood the DivX license you do not have to pay any licensing fees as long as you do not distribute your video in a commercial way, meaning that you are not allowed gain any money whatsoever from the distribution of your video, no matter if it is direct payment or indirect.
But (correct me if I am wrong) since I do not ask the visitors of my site pay a single cent for the videos (I distribute them at absolutely no cost) I do not think that I fall into the category of the "required to buy a license" people.

[bjorn toulouse]

Well, I thought I would check by writing to them to find out, mabee my situation is different.
I made a few videos for internal training, I am making no money out of them. The idea was that people view them as needed over the internal network instead of getting a TV and Video recorder.
To do this the DivX people advised it would cost $1500 a year.

[tommazzo]

So, maybe XviD might also be the solution for you.
But since no one is allowed to neiter distribute XviD binaries nor XviD encoded videos, I thought about a little workaround for that:
The videos could be encoded with XviD, then before they are distributed the fourcc could be changed to something like MP43 (or probably even DX50). In that case you are not distributing DivX encoded content in the first place and it is also not really obvious that the video was encoded with XviD. The only problem with that solution is that I am not really sure if it goes well with the MPEG LA, so I'd still need someone to assure me that the solution is OK.

[CruNcher]

@tommazzo if you really only intend to use it for a private site and you get nothing commercialy from the videos or the content that is shown in the videos and i think thats the problem bjorn toulouse is faceing "the training is done to get profit from it". It should be no problem to use it for your private site, it wouldn't be legal ofcourse but i don't think MpegLa will care about it :) but as soon as money gets involved you are in another position for the MpegLA.
And no changeing the fourcc doesn't hide anything the important data is saved on the bitstream layer and it allways can be found out with which encoder this Bitstream has been encoded.

PS: Also advertising banners on the site could be interpreted as commercial intent.

[tommazzo]

Thank you very much for your help all of you!:)

It seems like I should still think a bit about the future of the videos on my site, but since the DivX Pro version can be used without any charge for six months, I should have enough time to make a final decision, and who knows, probably someone will have licensed XviD until then.

[bjorn toulouse]

CruNcher, you miss understand, the videos are for NON profit making internal training. This was made clear to the DivX people,

there are other sections in the licence agreement that restict your use of divx content. but the agreement prhibits the discussion of this.

If you are going to use DivX I would recomend asking them if they deem you use of there product leagal.

incadentaly XviD is good.

[tommazzo]

In that case I guess I should follow your suggestion bjorn toulouse and ask DivX Networks if they have any problem with me distributing my free videos. Anyway, since after some tests I really got to think that XviD really appears to be a way better than DivX in most cases I can only hope that someone will license XviD in the neat future.:)

[bjorn toulouse]

I think you will be ok because on their web site the bang on about helping the independant film maker, however personaly I have decided to adopt XviD for all my future projects on a matter of principle, and the fact I have now sussed the 2pass encoding :) I was looking at the MPEG LA site, with respect to MPEG4 content

"Internet broadcast (non-subscription, not title-by-title) – Since this market is still developing, no royalties will be payable for internet broadcast services (non-subscription, not title-by-title) during the initial term of the license (which runs through December 31, 2010) and then shall not exceed the over-the-air free broadcast TV encoding fee during the renewal term."

So it looks to me its ok to publish mpeg4 encoded content.

If a mod is around would it be ok to start an MPEG LA discussion in the general forum?

[tommazzo]

Originally posted by bjorn toulouse
"Internet broadcast (non-subscription, not title-by-title) – Since this market is still developing, no royalties will be payable for internet broadcast services (non-subscription, not title-by-title) during the initial term of the license (which runs through December 31, 2010) and then shall not exceed the over-the-air free broadcast TV encoding fee during the renewal term."

So, in short everyone, who has no commercial intentions is allowed distribute XviD encoded content over the internet? If we are allowed to distribute the videos, then what about the XviD binaries? :confused:

[CruNcher]

it looks like till 2011 its free it thought till 2008 hmm but this was mainly for content providers eg streaming tv stations or something if i correctly remember it hmm.

[Selur]

over at:
http://www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/german/bs/HiCon/downloads.htm
one can download a xvid binary and test samples :D

I guess this is okay since the guys over from hhi.fraunhofer probably own a mpeg4 license,.. though I was surprised to see a xvid installer at the bottom of the page,...

Cu Selur

[bond]

Originally posted by Selur
over at:
http://www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/german/bs/HiCon/downloads.htm
one can download a xvid binary and test samples :D

I guess this is okay since the guys over from hhi.fraunhofer probably own a mpeg4 license,.. though I was surprised to see a xvid installer at the bottom of the page,..LOOL
someone should tell them to offer a binary of the official 1.0.1 :D

still i wonder if this hosting strictly speaking is legal? wouldnt it be necessary to provide the sources too?

[tommazzo]

Originally posted by bond
still i wonder if this hosting strictly speaking is legal? wouldnt it be necessary to provide the sources too?

That's in fact what I think too, to statisfy the General Public License I'd say that at least a link to a site where the source can be downloaded would be required.

[bond]

well i wouldnt bug frauenhofer about it, maybe they will remove it than.
its good to have this site for saying "hey what do you want? i got the codec from frauenhofer, they offer it on their website, blame them" :D

[Leak]

Originally posted by tommazzo
That's in fact what I think too, to statisfy the General Public License I'd say that at least a link to a site where the source can be downloaded would be required.

Not really; all you have to do is make the source available upon request, so if they agree to mail you the source on CD via carrier pigeon when you ask for it then that probably satisfies the GPL as well... (okay, maybe not the carrier pigeon part... :D)

Of course, just adding a source download is a lot less hassle for all involved parties... ;)

np: Amorphous Androgynous - Slo-Mo (The Otherness)