he-aac and ogg

[gavo]

Does he-aac do a better job at high bitrates or does ogg come up at on top.:confused:

[RadicalEd]

HE-AAC is not meant for high bitrates, and Vorbis is not yet tuned for them (IIRC). I think most people will agree Musepack is the best for high bitrates. But you should really try to do your own tests to discover this instead of relying on the opinions of others. I think this thread probably treads a bit on rule 12, as well.

[yaz]

@gavo
nobody ever has tested that stuffs for 'high' bitrate. no surprise. they all are intended for 'low' bitrate (as all encoding/compressing technique aim that). if u have enough bit, u should consider to keep the original track.
btw, how high is 'high' ?
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[Chainmax]

AFAIK, HE-AAC is meant for <128kbps and LC-AAC is meant for >128kbps. Anyway, according to this 128kbps listening test (http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html), Ogg Vorbis aoTuV (now Ogg Vorbis Megamix (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=23466) if I'm not mistaken) is better than iTunes AAC which is considered as one of the best (if not the best) AAC encoder. So I guess that the answer to your question is Ogg Vorbis Megamix. I only gathered various bits of information from around the web without any actual knowledge of my own, so take this with a grain of salt.

[P0l1m0rph1c]

Actually, Nero won't allow you to use HE-AAC above 96 kbps. There's a hard limit to where SBR can be useful. DSBR is another story though... ;)

[yaz]

Originally posted by P0l1m0rph1c
Actually, Nero won't allow you to use HE-AAC above 96 kbps. There's a hard limit to where SBR can be useful. DSBR is another story though... ;) eeehm ... would you, pls, give some details. what do u mean by
- 'won't allow' ? (actually, u can combine the parameters however u want. say, u can set 'vbr_audiophile+he' and nero will do that)
- 'hard limit' ? (if u mean, nero will switch off sbr above a certain limit, it's false)
- 'useful' (if u think of quality than u'd be right but if u consider compression too, u're wrong.)
- 'dsbr is another story' ? why, how and to what extent ?

@chainmax
don't take that test too serious. if u're not an 'audio-freak' u won't here any significant difference amongst the 'leading quartet'.

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[gavo]

ya I now mpc would be best and I use it alot for my personal backups but there no support for streaming video.

[P0l1m0rph1c]

Originally posted by yaz
eeehm ... would you, pls, give some details. what do u mean by
- 'won't allow' ? (actually, u can combine the parameters however u want. say, u can set 'vbr_audiophile+he' and nero will do that)
- 'hard limit' ? (if u mean, nero will switch off sbr above a certain limit, it's false)
- 'useful' (if u think of quality than u'd be right but if u consider compression too, u're wrong.)
- 'dsbr is another story' ? why, how and to what extent ?

@chainmax
don't take that test too serious. if u're not an 'audio-freak' u won't here any significant difference amongst the 'leading quartet'.

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Using only the Nero GUI to encode to AAC, it won't let you encode HE-AAC at these bitrates (i know you can workaround that). This happens for a reason. Starting from one point, SBR isn't so useful anymore. Although it still compresses better than LC only, it suffers the risk of losing transparency. And at these bitrates, it's what we aim for, right? :)

DSBR is AAC @ 44100 Hz (in the case of a CD), and SBR is made @ 88200 Hz. This allows higher quality even on non-sbr supporting players. And since the sbr is made at higher resolution, it *should* bring higher quality at higher bitrates. Maybe this was already a bit offtopic.

[Andrey]

- 'won't allow' ? (actually, u can combine the parameters however u want. say, u can set 'vbr_audiophile+he' and nero will do that)
No, Nero will encode vbr_audiophile with LC explicitly regardless what you select in type combobox.
- 'hard limit' ? (if u mean, nero will switch off sbr above a certain limit, it's false)
It's designed so by Ivan and it's true.
- 'useful' (if u think of quality than u'd be right but if u consider compression too, u're wrong.)
Not wrong, but completely right. HE profile will obey bitrate settings.
- 'dsbr is another story' ? why, how and to what extent ?
And since the sbr is made at higher resolution, it *should* bring higher quality
The idea is to increase time resolution, so pre-echo will be less noticable.

[Andrey]

Addenium about MPEG4 AAC tools.
Latest tests showed, that tools should be used according to bitrates in such a manner:
PS: < 48Kbit
HE: >= 48 <96 Kbit
LC: >=96Kbit

P.S. This may change, if there will be great code efficiency impovement for any of profiles occasionally...
This is a current situation.

[yaz]

Originally posted by Andrey
No, Nero will encode vbr_audiophile with LC explicitly regardless what you select in type combobox.if u use the nero gui sbr is switched of at vbr_audiophile even if u set it but ... if u use besweet/bns all setting is accepted regardless what's defined in the 'profiles' Originally posted by Andrey
It's designed so by Ivan and it's true.just try what i wrote aboveOriginally posted by Andrey
Not wrong, but completely right. HE profile will obey bitrate settings.u misunderstood me. the question is(was)whether to use sbr or not at 'high' bitrates. i just meant, sbr always(!) increases the compression (it's for that), so if space is considered than it's (always) useful. if u only consider quality there's not much reason to use sbr at 'high' bitrates.Originally posted by Andrey
The idea is to increase time resolution, so pre-echo will be less noticable. yeah, i know exactly what dsbr is. i just meant it's not 'another story'. it's just the same ... maybe another chapter of that :-))
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[Andrey]

if u use the nero gui sbr is switched of at vbr_audiophile even if u set it but ... if u use besweet/bns all setting is accepted regardless what's defined in the 'profiles'
Heh. ;)
Didn't try it. May be, but BeSweet isn't Nero :)
Hack, I must say :)

u misunderstood me. the question is(was)whether to use sbr or not at 'high' bitrates. i just meant, sbr always(!) increases the compression (it's for that), so if space is considered than it's (always) useful. if u only consider quality there's not much reason to use sbr at 'high' bitrates.
Hmmm... A bit misunderstanding...
See, if you encode LC AAC at 224Kbit you will have 224Kbit LC AAC.
If you encode HE AAC at 224Kbit you will have ~220Kbit LC AAC crap and ~4Kbit data for high freq. restouration. It is definitely worse in quality terms and compression is not increased...
That what I meant...

[yaz]

@andrey
sbr : i got your point. as i never use cbr i don't know whether your numbers are right or wrong but ... in vbr mode the size-gain is always significant and quality is never crap when sbr is flipped on. just give it a go :-)

besweet/bns : hack or not ... you've got full hand on nero :-) btw, u need the command-line version of bns (latest besweet includes)

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