Mixed Angle Mode possible in Scenarist?

[LB]

Unique problem. While most guides here deal with backing up movies, none of them deal with authoring a disc where I have created an angle in a movie that previously had no angles. Previously I was going to use maestro to acomplish this because it's so simple:

+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| Angle 1 | Angle 1 | Angle 1 | Angle 1 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+ ....
| | Angle 2 | | Angle 2 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+ ....
| Audio 1 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+ ....

But the problem is Maestro gives me a lot of GOP not-equal errors when I try to import *some* angles. It's totally random and I believe it to be a bug because sometimes if I close maestro and re-open it, the angles that gave me GOP errors no longer give me errors. Go figure. So meastro is out leaving my only other option, scenarist.

But I'm running into a problem with that too. Previously when I tried to use Maestro, "Mixed Angle Mode" allowed me to add everything onto the Movie1 timeline and then slap on the audio1 file for the entire movie. But with scenarist, it doesn't look like that is possible. Is it? If not then the only option I can see is to cut the audio file, but as I made these angles myself I fear issues from that arising in how eactly to chop up audio track into correctly synced segments, and they might not always match up... Plus cutting the audio file is just pure headache. So, can Mixed Angle Mode be done in Scenarist? Or am I just plain out of luck?

[Dimmer]

It's quite possible in Scenarist. You just have to create separate scenes for the segments you want to contain the second angle before adding it. That's because angle video clips have to fill entire scene they are added to.

[LB]

Originally posted by Dimmer
It's quite possible in Scenarist. You just have to create separate scenes for the segments you want to contain the second angle before adding it. That's because angle video clips have to fill entire scene they are added to.

Kind of defeats the purpose of saving bits. On a side note though, I found my problem in Maestro. Apparantly some of my angles were under 11 frames total, which is less than a single gop so I was getting an error. Making it longer than this seemed to do the trick. :D

[RB]

Originally posted by LB
Kind of defeats the purpose of saving bits.
Maybe you misunderstood something. Scenarist offers "mixed angle mode" just as well as Maestro, I used it multiple times. How does Scenarist not save bits? And the audio can be the same for all angles, nothing different from a single-angle track here.

[LB]

@RB: What I got out of Dimmer's reply was that each scene that has an angle can only be an angle, meaning the diagram in my original post cannot be done in Scenarist. That said, to acomplish what Dimmer stated without cutting the ac3 track would require two full versions of the movie - see below e.g.:


+----------------------------------------+
|Full Movie Containing All Angle_1 Angles|
+----------------------------------------+ ....
|Full Movie Containing All Angle_2 Angles|
+----------------------------------------+ ....
| Audio |
+----------------------------------------+ ....


Angle 1 would be the full movie, and Angle 2 would also be the full movie. But doing this is illogical for the entire movie because the movies I have are around 2hrs yet contain only around 3min worth of angles; and that is why it defeats the purpose of saving bits. So Dimmer answered my question by simply saying that to acomplish the diagram in my original post, I would have to cut the ac3. Or... did I misunderstand something? (also, I'm not sure as to the exact definition of Mixed Angle Mode - I probably used that term incorrectly; maybe I should have asked whether is "Mixed Angle but 1 Audio-Stream Mode possible in Scenarist")

[Dimmer]

@LB
You're still missing the point. Scene in Scenarist is a part of a track that eventually becomes a cell on a finished DVD. A scene can be as long as the track of course, but it can also be only a couple of seconds long like this:

+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| Angle 1 | Angle 1 | Angle 1 | Angle 1 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| | Angle 2 | | Angle 2 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| Audio 1 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| | | | |
+-Scene1--+-Scene2--+-Scene3--+-Scene4--+
| |
+---------------- TRACK ----------------+

[RB]

Exactly :). LB, look here for a screenshot of how it looks in Scenarist: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68989#post466540

[LB]

So just to clarify, the following is possible in scenarist...

First I do this:

+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| Angle 1 | Angle 1 | Angle 1 | Angle 1 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| | Angle 2 | | Angle 2 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+
= = = =
+-Scene1--+-Scene2--+-Scene3--+-Scene4--+

Then I do this:

+-Scene1--+-Scene2--+-Scene3--+-Scene4--+
+
+---------------------------------------+
| Audio (single .ac3 file) |
+---------------------------------------+
=
+---------------------------------------+
| Track |
+---------------------------------------+

And I only need 1 ac3 file - i.e., I can have 100 .mpv angle files which total 60min, and I only need 1 60min ac3 file?

[RB]

Exactly. Of course you can add the audio track before adding the angles/scenes, order is not important.

[LB]

Originally posted by RB
Exactly. Of course you can add the audio track before adding the angles/scenes, order is not important.

I do not care about order. My only concern/desire is to not split my .ac3 file. I just want 1 single ac3 file for the entire track, but the track has many angles. But thank you for the confirmation; I will try it out.

[Dimmer]

Originally posted by LB
I do not care about order. My only concern/desire is to not split my .ac3 file. I just want 1 single ac3 file for the entire track, but the track has many angles. But thank you for the confirmation; I will try it out. Note though that you have to create scenes first before adding the video to the second angle. That's because each "angle" clip has to fill entire scene it's added to.

[Arky]

Originally posted by LB
...the problem is Maestro gives me a lot of GOP not-equal errors when I try to import *some* angles. It's totally random and I believe it to be a bug because sometimes if I close maestro and re-open it, the angles that gave me GOP errors no longer give me errors. Go figure. So meastro is out leaving my only other option, scenarist.

On the basis of the information you have provided, I don't believe Maestro is to blame for these errors. All Multi-Angle clips comprising a given Angle-Block must have identical GOP structures. Unless you have carefully encoded your MPEG streams appropriately, Maestro is correctly telling you that the GOP structure of your additional angle(s) differs from that of the adjacent sections of your main stream. It doesn't matter what authoring system you use, this is part of the DVD spec for Multi-Angle projects. Therefore, in order to achieve your stated aim, you are going to have to re-encode those portions of your main movie which you wish to be incorporated into Angle-Blocks. Since this will probably result in a change in appearance from the original encode, you may find that you also need to re-encode the material from your main movie which lies outside of the interleaved Angle-Blocks. I know this is a pain, but Multi-Angle authoring can be pretty demanding. I would hate you to end up with a result that interleaves correctly but which has luminance shifts between interleaved and non-interleaved segments!


Your newly-encoded segments can subsequently be concatenated either outside the authoring program (I use MPEG Append for this purpose, on the Mac), or you can allow Maestro or Scenarist to take care of concatenation for you. Audio, of course, can just be imported as a single stream, as per usual. Your .ac3 audio will help keep your overall data rate overhead down. You appear to be authoring with only one additional Angle so you should aim for a maximum data rate of 7.8mbps. This figure refers to the sum of ALL your audio streams and ALL your subtitle streams, PLUS one of your video streams. So with no subs and one stereo .ac3 audio stream at 192kbps you'd be quite safe encoding each of your video streams at 7mbps max (or CBR in the case of the interleave segments).


As Dimmer alluded to, an Angle-Block requires cell boundaries to be defined at both ends, in order for the appropriate interleaving to be undertaken.

As I recently discussed on the Apple board, DVD Studio Pro (which is essentially Maestro for the Mac) requires that the main track asset be added, then cells pertaining to the START of each 'Mixed' (not a true technical term) Angle block must be defined, then the additional 'Angle-2' clips added, and finally, where each of those additional clips defines a new Angle-Block, they must be CTRL-clicked and 'Add Marker to Clip End' or 'Add Chapter to Clip End' selected, in order to define the latter cell boundary for each of these Angle-Blocks. This yields a precise cell placement, rather than defining both cell markers prior to adding the additional angle(s) and hoping the clip durations tally.

As you yourself observed, LB, the alternative Angle clips must be of a reasonable length (irrespective of which authoring system you use). The DVD spec specifies a minimum and maximum allowable 'jump distance' which varies according to circumstance, this value being mediated by number of streams in the interleave block, and the bitrate of each of those streams. You have to give the interleaving routines something to manoeuvre with, in this regard - the task of interleaving is horrendously complex at the best of times, so have pity on your poor authoring system ;)


John.
('Arky')

[LB]

Originally posted by Arky
As I recently discussed on the Apple board, DVD Studio Pro (which is essentially Maestro for the Mac) requires that the main track asset be added, then cells pertaining to the START of each 'Mixed' (not a true technical term) Angle block must be defined, then the additional 'Angle-2' clips added, and finally, where each of those additional clips defines a new Angle-Block, they must be CTRL-clicked and 'Add Marker to Clip End' or 'Add Chapter to Clip End' selected, in order to define the latter cell boundary for each of these Angle-Blocks. This yields a precise cell placement, rather than defining both cell markers prior to adding the additional angle(s) and hoping the clip durations tally.

Ahh... that order worked for me. I wasn't adding my assets like that. But doing it like you said solved all the problems. :D thanks

[LB]

@arky

One more question for you since you seem to know maestro indepth. Is there a bug regarding having an angle start the movie off? So that on the timeline, it would look like this:


+---------+---------+---------+---------+
|1 Angle1 |2 Angle1 |3 Angle1 |4 Angle1 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+ ....
|5 Angle2 | |6 Angle2 | |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+ ....
| Audio 1 |
+---------+---------+---------+---------+ ....

The numbers in bold represent the order I add them in, so I'm adding them correctly. But when I go to add #6, maestro says "Asset already exists; want to overwrite?" and I know I created the angles correctly because I have no issue if I don't start the timeline out with an angle at #5...

[DaRat]

One other thing you should do for mixed-angle (taking the above as example): for your "main movie" scenes (1-2-3-4), add sequence end code only for the last one (in this case no4) but add each of your additional anggle scenes (both 5 and 6). Honestly I don't know if it's part of the specs or not, read it a while back on the forum and it worked for me.

[LB]

@DaRat

Cool that worked. Okay another question for you. Subtitles... I know that I have to:

1. export timeline1 to a mpeg file;
2. then delete the assets on timeline1;
3. then add the long exported mpeg file to timeline1;
4. then import my subtitles

(and I know all about drop frame stuff)

This will sync up the subs fine because if I add the subs while the segmented clips are on timeline1 the sync is all messed up. But here's the issue. When I add the long mpeg file to timeline1, on compile I get a GOP error; while there was no gop error while timeline1 was in segmented mpv files... (*loud grumbling*)

So how do I fix this you think?

[DaRat]

I don't really understand what you did (haven't used S for months now :() but here's what I did (again, there's a guide here somewhere on that):

Impoerted all angle1 clips via "new > multi-file data" so S handles it as one video, added scenes, added extra video scenes (they are bounded by scene points), added audio (no cutting needed, this was a priority back then because of the damn dts track :D) and subtitles without any problems. Tada! Done. Of course you have to calculate the exact point for the angle in and outs but it's a few mins max.

One more important note: some versions of mpeg2dec(3) and dvd2avi cuts the last 1-2-whatever frames of the clip, there's a fixed version for all of theese somewhere (again, dunno if it's a "special relese" or included fix in all versions). Mixing in 3 clips with the last 2 frames missing each would result a almost .25 sec delay of the audio (pal land here, .2 for you) and it's annoying to say the least.



Never mind, did a quick search:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=431462#post431462

[mp3dom]

I'm trying to make a similar project with Maestro but I have some problems!

My "movie" need to be like this:

|------------|------------|
| Angle 1(1) | Angle 1(2) |
|------------|------------|
| Angle 2 | |
|------------|------------|
| Audio 1 |
|-------------------------|
| Audio 2 |
|-------------------------|
| Subtitle 1 |
|-------------------------|

Angle 1(1) and Angle 2 are 408 frames in length.

Well, I have encoded in CCE Angle 1(1) and Angle 2 in CBR 4 Mbps and "DVD multi angle" selected (Equalize GOP, Closed GOP and Auto I frame disabled).
Angle 1(2) is encoded in VBR 0-3500-8000 (min,avg,max)

I've inserted a chapter point between Angle1(1) and Angle1(2) (following the Maestro user guide).
The preview in Maestro works OK but when I compile the project Maestro crash! It multiplex the VTS but at the end (when need to create the IFOs) it crash and quit without any message!
The VIDEO_TS folder contain the VIDEO_TS.VOB, VTS_01_0.VOB and VTS_01_1.VOB... no other files!
There's a way to fix this "problem"? Any suggestion?
Thanks!

[DaRat]

You might want to check if cce has put a seq end code at the end of both tracks, you'd need it only for angle 2 but not for angle 1(1).

[mp3dom]

Yes! You're right! Now all works ok! Very thanks!
Another small question: the DVD specs says that the max bitrate is 9.8 Mbps where Maestro compiler limit the multi-angle at 8 Mbps for each angle.
Well... if I:
-) Encode each angle at 9.7 Mbps (audio+video+subs)
-) Change the nominal bitrate from 9.7 Mbps to 7 Mbps with ReStream
-) Compile the project with Maestro

the compiling process gave me no errors and all is ok (in preview and with PowerDVD) but... the dvd is fully playable/compatible or there is a risk of some "problems" (frame skipping or other things) with some dvd player?
Thanks again.

[DaRat]

I never used Maestro but I think this is one of the reasons for Scenarist making those info files for videos. On the other hand I found quite a few dvds where the angles were above the scenarist limitations (eg: fight club pal, 3 angles and each angle is 7.5 mbps, not to mention the audio tracks).

On the plaxer side the buffer might run out while seeking the other program chunk, the cheapshit noname players will most certainly will have difficulties playing the disc, but this is only a wild guess. You might ask Arky, he likes to tinker with interleaving and stuff. ;)

[mp3dom]

Many thanks for your respose! :)

[Arky]

Hi mp3dom,

I've been away for several days, so I've only just seen the PM you sent me. However, it looks like DaRat has answered your question nicely. If I've missed something that was in the PM but isn't asked above, then please let me know, though, and I'll do my best to answer it :)


Regarding bitrate 'faking' when interleaving, you may well have apparently succeeded, but let me assure you that you are playing with fire, here! :(

The DVD Spec places very rigid restrictions on bitrate, for interleaving purposes, because interleaving involves incrementally segmenting MPEG streams and adding Data Search Information (DSI) which allows a player to appropriately navigate these Interleave VOB Units (ILVUs), by skipping over those that aren't required, and playing back only those that are required (the selected Angle, in the case of Angle Interleaving, or the selected PGs of a PGC, in the case of Seamless Multi-Story).

In order for a player to skip over an unwanted ILVU, and locate the next required one, for playback, it must read the DSI table in the NAVpack to find the necessary sector address on the disc, and it must pack the frame buffer to ensure that buffer underrun does not occur during the period when the laser assembly is 'seeking' the next required ILVU at that sector address. Because the frame buffer is so limited in a standalone player, there must consequently be a restriction on how far the player can 'jump' across an ILVU - in other words, there is a maximum possible size that an ILVU can be, because if it is allowed to be any bigger, then the player will not be able to 'jump' across it fast enough, and the end result will be that the frame buffer will underrun (empty) before the player has successfully located the next required ILVU and begun feeding it's data into the frame buffer again, for smooth playback.

So how does this relate to bitrate? Well, when an authoring system goes about calculating suitable ILVU lengths, it must be mindful of the above, spec-imposed, practical restrictions, if it is to ensure that the contents of the multiplexed VIDEO_TS folder will have a data structure which can be successfully played by any spec-compliant playback device, without pauses in playback occurring (*notwithstanding non-seamless events expressly allowed for, and defined, by the spec, such as 'Non-Seamless M-A' and Layer Breaks, and Cell Commands, for example). Where Interleave Blocks are concerned, ILVU lengths need not conform to a concrete figure, but the acceptable range within which they may legitimately fall will vary according to how long the encoded MPEG GOP lengths are, how many streams are included within the Interleave block, and, importantly, how high the bitrates of each constituent stream are. As I have outlined above, according to the DVD spec, there is a limit to the number of sectors which may be 'jumped' while maintaining seamlessness of ILVU playback.

Therefore, by violating the maximum bitrate, you are potentially forcing a situation into being, whereby ILVU lengths may be incorrectly calculated wth the consequence that certain players' buffers may underrun while attempting to navigate through the Interleave Block(s). Previewing with PowerDVD is not an acceptable QC-ing method because PCs have fast ATAPI drives at their disposal (which, admittedly, certain standalone players do, also), but, more importantly, they have massive memory reserves at their disposal, for the purposes of buffering. These memory reserves dramatically exceed those of the DVD spec, so, in combination with the bountiful additional rotational velocity afforded by an ATAPI drive, they can accomodate a multitude of ILVU spec violations without even batting an eyelid. You will only know the true story once you have burned a project to DVDR and attempted playback with a spec-compliant standalone DVD player, and even then, playback success on one player does not equate to compatibility with other players.


Without going into the details (I've done so, at length, elsewhere) different Interleave Block types place different demands on interleave strategy. Unless you author on a Mac, or you have access to a proprietary Toshiba or Panasonic system, Partial Interleaving (AKA Seamless Multi-Story) will not be an option for you, so you are probably authoring exclusively Multi-Angle work, be it Seamless or, in the case of Scenarist, possibly also Non-Seamless, according to the job at hand. Both Multi-Angle Interleave types place far greater restriction on MPEG parameters than does Partial Interleaving. The conclusion, therefore, is that you are taking even greater liberties by faking your bitrate! Also, please remember that the maximum bitrate per stream in an Angle Interleave Block varies according to the number of streams (i.e. how many angles and how many audio and subtitle streams) there are in that Interleave Block!


Lastly, you should note that distribution of your work on DVDR places additional practical restrictions on authoring, and especially where ILVUs are concerned, because the lower reflectivity of recordable media places greater strain on a laser servo assembly to successfully track data - navigating ILVUs requires what is, in essence, random access, and this is more challenging than simply following a linear data track through to its eventual conclusion. In short, the significant strain that playback of Interleave Blocks places upon a player's tracking and buffer systems is magnified even further where Titles are distributed on recordable, instead of replicated, media.

My advice to you, if you are authoring anything for distribution, is to obey the legitimate rules laid down by the DVD spec, with regard to MPEG stream parameters (including bitrate) for Interleaved Titles. Failure to do so will undoubtedly result in dramtically decreased compatiblity with a wide range of playback devices, which is something no business can afford to risk.


I hope this sheds some light on the matter, for you. Let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,


Arky ;o)

[mp3dom]

Thank you very very much for your exhaustive explanation!
After your post i've decided to bring the max bitrate to real 7.6 Mbps for each angle (8 Mbps - 192x2 Audio streams).
After compiling I've see these results:
PowerDVD -> No problems (i know it's a sw player with pc-dvdrom unit but it's only to know if Maestro output a valid IFO)
WinDVD -> No problem (same as above)
XBOX -> No problem
United standalone DVD player -> No problem
Sonic CinePlayer -> jerky problem when multi-angle ends
TheaterTek DVD -> same as CinePlayer (uses same decoder)
It's curious that CinePlayer and TheaterTek are sw player and the jerky problem appear even if I play the DVD from an HD folder!

So i've thought that the "start/end" points of multi-angle cannot be randomly choosed.
I've choosed the point where there's a clear scene-change and now the playback is smooth with all standalone/sw player that i've tried.
I wish to have a "good" compatible multi-angle DVDR now! :p

Thanks again for all your help!

[Arky]

Originally posted by mp3dom

After your post i've decided to bring the max bitrate to real 7.6 Mbps for each angle (8 Mbps - 192x2 Audio streams).


To be honest, if you are distributing ths project via DVDR, I would drop your bitrate even further, to maximise player compatibility. Generally, I would suggest aiming for a maximum bitrate rather less than 8mbps, for DVDR jobs. If you are aiming for replication then you need not necessarily heed this advice, though.


Originally posted by mp3dom

After compiling I've see these results:

Sonic CinePlayer -> jerky problem when multi-angle ends
TheaterTek DVD -> same as CinePlayer (uses same decoder)
It's curious that CinePlayer and TheaterTek are sw player and the jerky problem appear even if I play the DVD from an HD folder!

So i've thought that the "start/end" points of multi-angle cannot be randomly choosed.


Assuming you have correctly prepared your MPEG streams (e.g. made each of the constituent streams in each Angle Interleave Block of identical duration and structure), I can think of no technical reason, from a DVD spec standpoint, that would cause the symptom you describe. It should be totally possible to leave an Angle Interleave Block and enter a non-interleaved section, and do so completely seamlessly (unless you have added a cell command at the end of the Interleave Block, which, according to the DVD spec, would yield a non-seamless result). Can you please be more specific about what you mean, when you say:
So i've thought that the "start/end" points of multi-angle cannot be randomly choosed.

Do you mean that you are trying to use a cell command to 'choose' a particular angle, according to the value in an SPRM or GPRM, or was it simply a misinterpreted phrase? I think it is probably just the latter...





That query notwithstanding, please also re-encode your assets, reducing the bitrate by a full 1 mbps, and let me know your results, thereafter.

Regards,


Arky ;o)

[mp3dom]

Originally posted by Arky
Assuming you have correctly prepared your MPEG streams (e.g. made each of the constituent streams in each Angle Interleave Block of identical duration and structure)

Yes, right! I've followed the Maestro User Guide about mixed multi-angle.


Can you please be more specific about what you mean, when you say:
Do you mean that you are trying to use a cell command to 'choose' a particular angle, according to the value in an SPRM or GPRM

Angle 1 is the full movie and the "Angle 2" contains only the first 6 seconds of "Angle 1" with the differences. After importing the "Angle 2" in the timeline, Maestro automatically adds a "Target Point" (and this is Ok, according to the Maestro User Guide).
For this "Movie" I've created 2 playlists. The 1st refer to the 1st angle and the 2nd to the second angle (I need the playlists because I need the "Disable Subtitle Tracks number" and "Disable audio tracks number").
The "angle change" is made via a Command sequence. The command sequence are executed via a button (in the menu) so the angle don't change during the playback but it's changed at the beginning.
But the jerky problem appear when the Angle (1 or 2) end.


That query notwithstanding, please also re-encode your assets, reducing the bitrate by a full 1 mbps, and let me know your results, thereafter.

I've tried with a CBR 4 Mbps (for both angles) and the problem still persist (with "random" points) but with "scene-change" based point the playback is pretty perfect.

[Arky]

For this "Movie" I've created 2 playlists. The 1st refer to the 1st angle and the 2nd to the second angle (I need the playlists because I need the "Disable Subtitle Tracks number" and "Disable audio tracks number").

In principle, that should work ok (and seamlessly), provided no further attempt is made, during playback of the PGC, to influence audio playback in any way.





The "angle change" is made via a Command sequence. The command sequence are executed via a button (in the menu) so the angle don't change during the playback but it's changed at the beginning.


Yes, provided the command is used only to pre-select the appropriate PGC Angle for playback, then playback should, indeed, be seamless.





You said:

I've tried with a CBR 4 Mbps (for both angles) and the problem still persist (with "random" points) but with "scene-change" based point the playback is pretty perfect.

and...

But the jerky problem appear when the Angle (1 or 2) end.

...so, are you saying that dropping the bitrate to 4mbps eliminated "the jerky problem...when the Angle (1 or 2) end"?


Can you please clarify exactly what you mean when you refer to "random points"?

It is obvious that we are generally on the same wavelength as each other, here, but I still feel there is a little semantic discrepancy that is causing some confusion!

I will await your clarification :)


Arky ;o)

[mp3dom]

Excuse me but I don't speak english very well (i'm from Italy) so I can write some misunderstanding things for sure.

With "random start-end points of multi-angle" project I mean that you select X start frame and Y end frame (of a video) that you want to brings in multi-angle.
For example... I can have 2 videos with english credits and italian credits and i want to have only one video with multi-angle.
So i encode the english credits in its full length and i encode only the first 20 seconds (it's an example) of italian credits (the zone where there's the differences between english and italian credits).
Now assume that at 20 seconds (the "cutting point") there isn't a scene change and at 21 seconds (a bit later) there's a clear scene change.
If i encode only the 1st 20 seconds when I play the video (and i'm at the 20 seconds zone) i see a very small jerky problem (in the video). It seems like if the sw player plays the 20,00 seconds (secs,frames) and then the 19,24 seconds (secs,frame). This happen even if both videos are encoded with a CBR 4 Mbps. If I encode the same videos (but i change the "cutting point" at 21 seconds in the clear scene change) i don't have any problem... even if both videos are encoded at 7.6 Mbps in VBR.

Thanks again :)

[Arky]

Sorry, but without being able to physically examine your project, it is difficult to ascertain precisely what may be causing the jerkiness, so trial and error will be necessary in order to deduce the possible cause.

Although I am not yet entirely discounting an interleaving or multiplexing issue, I must say this sounds more like a possible editing issue. Have you checked the accuracy of the cuts you made on your NLE timeline? In the past, I myself have been guilty of misplacing a cut by only a single frame length and it made a very noticeable jerk in my finished (Seamless Multi-Story) interleaved Title. We are all human :)

It would also be a good idea to use maximum zoom, within your DVD authoring program, to check the accuracy of placement of your markers - i.e. those markers defining the boundaries of your Interleave(Angle) Blocks.

I await your findings...

Arky ;o)

[fateman]

I'm confused about the GOPs...I encoded 2 clips of exact same length at exact same bitrate and tried to import them as angle 1 and angle 2 into Maestro, but it says they have different GOPs. I encoded from Premiere. What can I do to make them the same?

[mp3dom]

@ Arky:
The cuts are accurated because in a test i've made a multi-angle that starts at the beginning (frame 0 to 250) and the problem still persist. Anyway i've burned the project in a DVD and i've tested it in about 10-12 standalone and it's perfect in all players. Thanks for all of your support!.

@fateman:
You need to encode both angles in closed GOPs to keep the same kind of GOPs in both angles. Also deactivate the "Auto I frame insertion" or "Scene change detection" because this can produce different GOPs.

[fateman]

Originally posted by mp3dom
@fateman:
You need to encode both angles in closed GOPs to keep the same kind of GOPs in both angles. Also deactivate the "Auto I frame insertion" or "Scene change detection" because this can produce different GOPs.
How do I encode in closed GOPs? Also, is the deactivation done in Premiere or in Maestro?

Thanks

[mp3dom]

Closed GOPs and Auto I Frame insertion (or scene change detection) are both in the encoder settings. I don't know where you can find these options in Premiere but i know that Premiere can use external encoders like CCE or (i think) MainConcept. Also the options can have different name (for example in TMPGEnc Xpress the "Closed GOPs" is called "Output bitstream for edition"). You can refer to the Premiere User Guide for more informations.

[fateman]

Well, I can't find anything like that in Premiere, so maybe I'll just use TMPGEnc or something to do this part...

Thanks

[Easy123]

Hello,

i find this thread highly interesting as I am trying to backup a "Multiangle" DVD :D
My target is to do the Authoring (putting the Movie Back together) with Maestro. I divided the Movie into 3 Parts.. The First part is only 1 Cell, The second parts consits of two cells and has got two Videostrams (Multiangle), the third part is the rest of the Movie... I encoded the first cell with the following bitrates: min 1400kbit, avg. 3509kbit, max. 8500kbit. The multiangle Streams were encoded with the following Settings: min 1400kbit, avg. 3509kbit, max. 5300kbit. The Rest of the Movie was encoded with the settings of the first cell. At the End of the compile DVD Maestro says that the files were created successfully but that a buffer underlfow was detected due to achieving the max. bitrate. I read here that the max. bitrate for angles should be max. 7.8mbit (I hope i remember right). My Main question is: Do I have to encode the Rest of the Movie (it is only one Angle) with that max. bitrate of Multiangle(minus Audiostreams + Subs) too or can I use a higher max bitrate in that Part? As I read and Understood here the only the Multiangle Parts have to be encoded with lower Bitrates.

[mp3dom]

You can also encode the 1st angle in 1 single file (i mean, no 3 files for each part but 1 single file). The maximum bitrate for a single angle cannot exceed the 8 Mbps (with video/audio/subs streams). The second angle can have a max bitrate of 8 Mbps.
You also need to encode both angles with Closed GOPs and auto I frame insertion disabled.
The message saw by Maestro refer (i think) to the 8.5 Mbps of max bitrate for part 1 & 3 which exceed the 8 Mbps (also your 8.5 Mbps is only for video and not video+audio+subs).
I really don't know if your dvd could be completely readable by all players... I have made some tests with multiangle with 9 Mbps of video only and works but could be that some players can't have enought buffer to ensure a smooth play.
Please remember that if you works with multiangle both angles cannot exceed the 8 Mbps each (so 8 Mbps for angle 1 and 8 Mbps for angle 2... not angle1+angle2<= 8 Mbps)

[LB]

Originally posted by mp3dom
You can also encode the 1st angle in 1 single file (i mean, no 3 files for each part but 1 single file). The maximum bitrate for a single angle cannot exceed the 8 Mbps (with video/audio/subs streams). The second angle can have a max bitrate of 8 Mbps.
You also need to encode both angles with Closed GOPs and auto I frame insertion disabled.
The message saw by Maestro refer (i think) to the 8.5 Mbps of max bitrate for part 1 & 3 which exceed the 8 Mbps (also your 8.5 Mbps is only for video and not video+audio+subs).
I really don't know if your dvd could be completely readable by all players... I have made some tests with multiangle with 9 Mbps of video only and works but could be that some players can't have enought buffer to ensure a smooth play.
Please remember that if you works with multiangle both angles cannot exceed the 8 Mbps each (so 8 Mbps for angle 1 and 8 Mbps for angle 2... not angle1+angle2<= 8 Mbps)

Actually this is incorrect. I ran into a problem today. I was getting an error on two "assets" on different "tracks" at the same timecode saying I was exceeding the 8Mbps, yet "asset" 1 on "track" 1 and "asset" 2 on "track" 2 were both encoded using a MAX bitrate of 2.5Mbps! I Tried rebooting. Re-authoring the timeline many many many times... yet I always got this stupid error. So here is what I found out, and which solved my problem:

The total bitrate for a video "stream" + all audio "tracks" cannot exceed 8Mbps. What is interesting to note is that a "steam" means every "asset" on a particular "track". So this means in a movie with multiple "tracks", EVERY "ASSET" OF VIDEO cannot exceed 8Mbps when combined with all the audio "tracks".

So for example. At time 10:00 I have an "asset" on "track" 1 and no "asset" on "track" 2. BUT, at 20:00 I have an "asset" on "track" 1 and an "asset" on "track" 2. THEREFORE, the "asset" at 10:00 is restricted by this 8Mbps cap. I know how crazy that sounds, but that's straight from the manual, and is exactly what solved the compile error that I was getting. :eek:

And while I have never followed this rule before and encoded all "assets" on "track" 1 where no "asset" on "track" 2 existed at a max of 9Mbps, perhaps in all my days of authoring CCE has yet to exceed 8Mbps... until today. Oh, and final note, let's get our terms down (this means everyone, not just mp3dom).

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/9659/409.gif

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/662/411.gif

Summary:

If you use more than one "track" ANYWHERE in your "movie" then ALL your "assets" in your "movie" cannot exceed 8Mbps when combined with ALL your audio "tracks". (Note: I have no clue if this is also the DVD-Spec or simply a Maestro-Spec. Mp3dom I read your post earlier about re-stream and that sounds like an interesting idea if indeed this is merely a Maestro-Spec).

[Arky]

For 2-5 angles, you should aim for a maximum of 8.0mbps (7.8mbps, conservatively)
For 6-8 angles, you should aim for a maximum of 7.5mbps (7.3mbps, conservatively)
And for 9 angles, you should aim for a maximum of 7.0mbps (6.8mbps, conservatively)

To reiterate, these restrictions apply to the sum of ALL audio streams in the interleave block, ALL subtitle streams in the interleave block, and ONE of the video streams in that interleave block, so, in a 7-angle interleave block, with no subs and 4 audio streams, at 192kbps, for example:


7-angle limitation = 7.5mbps max

7500-(192*4)= 6732kbps max bitrate per video stream in that angle block.


In principle, it is only streams in the interleave block itself which should require bitrate capping, since the restriction serves only to allow spec-compliant ILVU lengths within the Interleave Block itself. However, for reasons best known to the original programmer of Maestro's multiplexing engine, there are some peculiarities with Maestro when working with Angles. In 'Mixed-Angle' mode, the muxer also demands that the bitrate capping be observed for the first cell succeeding any interleave block (Tx Paddy). Also, it is wise to ensure that the first 2.5 seconds preceding the angle block has similarly capped bitrate. This presumably allows the muxer room to manoeuvre when interleaving the streams.


Arky ;o)

[mpucoder]

@Arky - the cap preceeding an ILVU is a requirement in the spec. The area is called the PREU, and is marked in the NAV packs to allow the player to stuff its buffers and get ready to skip around.

Since Maestro handles only multi-angle and not multi-story the explanation of total bitrate is essentially correct. This is because all angles in a multi-angle interleave contain the same audio. Technically different audio could be used, so long as it was identically encoded, since each angle contains its own copy of the audio. The spec implies this is not to be done.
Multi-story interleave is, well, another story.

[Arky]

Thanks for the PREU info, mpucoder.

And yes, Seamless Multi-Story ('Partial Interleave') is a different case, wth regard to calculation of max bitrates of constituent streams within the Partial-Interleave Block.

It is great fun to author Titles with SMS / P-I, though - huge creative possibilities, many of which are not immediately obvious.


Arky ;o)

[mpucoder]

Speaking of SMS, what programs other than TFDVDEdit are capable of doing it?

[LB]

Originally posted by Arky
In 'Mixed-Angle' mode, the muxer also demands that the bitrate capping be observed for the first cell succeeding any interleave block (Tx Paddy). Also, it is wise to ensure that the first 2.5 seconds preceding the angle block has similarly capped bitrate.

Well, what I was experiencing was Maestro requiring a cell preceding the angle block to be at the capped bitrate since my angle block was the final block of the track. So either the preceding block must be capped or all the preceding blocks must be capped.

[Arky]

Originally posted by mpucoder
Speaking of SMS, what programs other than TFDVDEdit are capable of doing it?



1) Toshiba Proprietary system (>$100k)

2) Panasonic Proprietary system (>$100k)

3) Nothing else (other than TFDVDEdit) - that's it.


Arky ;o)