Flickering DVDs with TMPGEnc

[Corrado]

Hi all,

I'm authoring my own DVDs (using TMPGEnc DVD Author) after encoding with TMPGEnc Plus 2.5 from DV-AVI footage.

No matter how high/low the bitrate is, if VBR or CBR, PCM or MP2 sound...I always have the problem of flickering motion areas in the DVD when I watch it on a standalone DVD player. Large motion areas, such as cross-fading dissolvences, are also affected badly.

The problem is only on standalone players, because if I watch the DVD on a PC it's fine - not perfect, maybe a bit blurred but surely not flickering. I tried 3 different standalone players/brands and 3 different PCs, nothing differs. All of the 3 players run perfectly with other burned DVDs (e.g.: DVD Backups). I also tried 3-4 different DVD-R and DVD+RW brands.

Here's what I do:

Capture DV and edit with Windows Movie Maker
Save as DV-AVI (type-1 I guess)
Convert AVI with Canopus DV codec (required for TMPGEnc to accept them without trouble)
Convert to MPEG-2 with TMPGEnc Plus 2.5
Author the DVD with TMPGEnc DVD Author

I tried CBR6000, VBR with average 6000 and maximum 6000 or 7000. I tried audio PCM or MPEG-Layer2 at 384bps and 160bps, vbr or cbr too.

I don't know what else to do....any good hint?

Thanks a lot for your help

[Video Dude]

Try using a program other then Windows Movie Maker.
Movie Maker is a great program to make wmv files, but not DV.

You can try a free unlimited feature 30 day trial of Ulead VideoStudio or MediaStudio to capture and edit.
http://www.ulead.com

Another program is Pure Motion's Edit Studio.
http://www.puremotion.com/editstudio/index.htm
You can capture and do edits and it is cheaper than Ulead.
But I think the trial version is limited.


It sounds like the problem is that Movie Maker is deinterlacing the video somewhere in your capture/editing process. This would happen if you capture in wmv, edit, and then save out to DV. This would cause the flicker during motion on your tv but play fine on your pc.

Also make sure that TMPGEnc is set to encode in interlaced and bottom field first. DV is almost always interlaced and bff.

[Corrado]

Hi Dude,

thanks for the hints, you spotted one problem with the field order, since I was using Top Field First (Field A). I'll try in the other way.

Changing software may also be an option but, if possible, I'd try to keep what I already have...how can I know if Movie Maker deinterlaces the videos? I'm not saving to WMV, just capturing and saving as AVI as shown in the screenshot below:

http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg09.txt

After converting with the Canopus DV File Converter this is what NanDub says of the video:

http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg08.txt

I know it's not of great help, so I grabbed also all the TMPG settings to show how they are now.

Please let me know if there's something else that I should change:

http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg01.txt
http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg02.txt
http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg03.txt
http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg04.txt
http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg05.txt
http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg06.txt
http://www.geocities.com/toxi/pics4total/tmpg07.txt

Thanks a lot

[Video Dude]

DV is bottom field first so setting it to bottom field first in TMPGEnc should fix the flicker.

If Movie Maker is capturing in DV then it should not be deinterlacing. However, if you captured in wmv then it would deinterlace.

Changing the field order in TMPGEnc should fix your probelms, your other settings look fine.

[Corrado]

Originally posted by Video Dude
Changing the field order in TMPGEnc should fix your probelms, your other settings look fine.
It worked!!!

Now the videos are sharp, clean and completely without flickering :)

Thanks a lot for the hint.
If Movie Maker is capturing in DV then it should not be deinterlacing. However, if you captured in wmv then it would deinterlace.
Movie Maker is capturing as an AVI file, WMV conversion is made afterwards, if you ask to save in that format, and of course I didn't ;)

Anyway, I think you can notice that it's interlaced in horizontal panning...thin lines appear on the PC screen.

[bb]

Hi Corrado,

what a pity that I didn't see this thread earlier. Of course DV is bottom field first (remember the DV forum? ;) )

The typical interlace lines appear on all progressive displays, despite the player deinterlaces during playback. Software players like PowerDVD or WinDVD do that, so you can view interlaced video on you PC monitor without the combing (but with a few artefacts due to the deinterlacing, depending on the deinterlacing method used).

By the way: you should not set the maximum bitrate equal to the average bitrate. I recommend 8000 or 8500 for the max. bitrate; 6000 for average is not bad, but if your video is not too long, you might consider to increase that value, too. The higher the bitrate, the better your video will be.

You might consider to use some filtering, too, e.g. as described in the "DV to DVD" guide via AviSynth, or using the TMPGEnc included filters.

bb

[Corrado]

Originally posted by bb
By the way: you should not set the maximum bitrate equal to the average bitrate. I recommend 8000 or 8500 for the max. bitrate; 6000 for average is not bad, but if your video is not too long, you might consider to increase that value, too. The higher the bitrate, the better your video will be.
Hi bb.
You're right about the bitrate. Actually I started with 7-8000 and I reached 6000 when making tests reducing the bitrate (because I thought that the flickering could have been caused by poor performance of my player). Of course, now that I know that the problem wasn't in the bitrate, I'll retry on higher values.
You might consider to use some filtering, too, e.g. as described in the "DV to DVD" guide via AviSynth, or using the TMPGEnc included filters.
Do you have specific suggestions/preferences?

[bb]

For the higher bitrates you should try CBR, VBR_CQ or CQ. CBR is preferred if you want to be sure about the filesize; the other two modes result in a constant picture quality, but the filesize won't be predictable.

CBR won't differ much from two-pass VBR at high bitrates, but it's twice as fast. The speed statement is valid for the constant quality modes, too, and they should be preferred if the filesize doesn't matter, i.e. if your video is short enough to fit on a DVD anyway.

Regarding the filtering options, I prefer to add Convolution3D filtering as mentioned in the guide. But there are other good smoothing filters, too. Feel free to experiment, e.g. with higher thresholds in the chroma parameters of Convolution3D, or by using other filters, for example the combination Undot().Deen()

You may wish to try TMPGEnc's "Noise reduction" filter ("Advanced" tab in "MPEG Setting" dialog) as well. I have no clue what the filter's options mean (they open when double clicking the filter), but you can try to figure it out with the preview.

Look at this thread for details on TMPGEnc's noise reduction:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68301

bb

[Kika]

I have no clue what the filter's options mean

First is intra frame filtering (a bit like SpatialSoften)
Second is radius
Third is a time axis (influence) (like TemporalSoften)

[Corrado]

Originally posted by bb
For the higher bitrates you should try CBR, VBR_CQ or CQ. CBR is preferred if you want to be sure about the filesize; the other two modes result in a constant picture quality, but the filesize won't be predictable.

I compared the following:

- VBR 2-pass (min 2000, avg 7000, max 8500)
- CBR 7000
- CQ 75 (min 2000, max 8500)

Results:
-The file sizes are comparable (7-10% less with CQ),
-They all allow 85' or more on a DVD-R (1 hour = 1DV tape would be enough for me)
-The conversion speed is 1x (2x for the 2-pass VBR of course).

Regarding quality....it's really hard to tell. CBR seems to be a bit worse, but not much. CQ is not better but it's somehow sharper.

I don't know what to choose...what's your personal opinion on the various formats? Which quality/bitrate settings would you use for the best output (without problems with the player)?

Consider that I'm making home videos, where the critical conversions are usually related to a "shaking hand" holding the camcorder (my wife :D ), to JPG noise in dark "in-house" shots...etc

[bb]

As the difference is hard to tell, choose one of the faster methods. I like the CQ modes, but CBR is not bad at high bitrates either. With the values you chose your DVD player should play the video without problems. You may increase the quality in CQ mode a bit, because your filesize was less compared to the other variants.

I suggest to use noise filtering, at least for the dark scenes. The "shaking" should be reduced by switching on the deshaking option of your camcorder. This should always be used despite using a tripod. In case your camcorder doesn't have a deshaking option, there are deshaker filters available.

bb

[Corrado]

Ok, thanks.

How much can I increase to have better results before I may have problems with the player? What about CBR 8000 + Audio 224 Mp2? I guess I just have to try :D

I'll also try some noise filtering for the dark scenes full of "pink dots".

Regarding shaking, the real problem is the deshaking option :rolleyes: In fact, when it's on, it will make the video "snap" when the hand shaking is "just a bit wider" than the limit of the digital filter. Zooming without a tripod is a typical case.

I wish I had bought a Canon with an optical image stabilizer :(