Audio Drop Out fix status?

[DVD Maniac]

I am not getting replies on the "main" thread for this topic hence this post. I have experiemced the audio drop out problem on roughly 3 out of 4 attempts with Rebuilder and so I am very eager for a fix from jdobbs.

My successful attempts all seem to have one thing in common - they are all episode type discs which originally appeared very odd. Thinking more about it though I have checked back on them and they are ALL DD2.0 audio as opposed to the usual DD5.0 or DTS. All the failed attempts have been with movies with the more typical DD5.0 / DTS. I am no expert but this indicates to me that it is very likely to do with the way that Rebuilder is re-muxing the encoded .m2v's and original .ac3's and that 2 channel audio is not affected.

I am hoping that this is high on the fix priority list as I have a number of movies that require heavy compression queued up waiting for this fix. I really do not want to resort to lower quaility encoding methods for these but will have to if this fix is a long way off - can you give some indication of when to expect a solution?

[Noah]

Yes, this would be priority #1 for me as well. I don't think jdobbs would disagree with that, given his most recent post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=517419#post512897) to the "Still Getting Stutter" thread, it sounds like its more of time issue than anything taking precedence over this.

Has anyone tried what he suggested here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75848&perpage=20&pagenumber=7#post511868):
If you took one of the offending VTSs and ran it through IFOEdit, then reintegrated it (using IFOUpdate) I think you'd see the dropouts go away.
If not, I'll give it a go, assuming it will be helpful in tracking this bug down.

[jdobbs]

I can tell you that I use DD5.1 on every DVD I backup -- and I've only gotten audio dropout once on only one disc that I can remember (and I've done a LOT of discs). So trying to fix the problem is difficult -- I can't even find the one example I had so I can try to repeat it.

It would be nice if someone who is experiencing the problem would try fixing it with IFOEDIT -- then I could at least have something to grab onto. But in the meantime, since no one seems to have the time to try it, I can't even confirm that this is a problem.

[Joergen]

Same here, I always use DD5.1 (though never DTS) and havent had any audio drops on tens of discs. Not saying its not possible but like jdobbs said its impossible to debug when there is nothing to work with.

[Noah]

I believe DVD players are a complicating factor in this issue. Some seem to gloss over this problem better than others.

[Skinleech]

Originally posted by Noah
I believe DVD players are a complicating factor in this issue. Some seem to gloss over this problem better than others.

I agree - all my DVD watching is via pc, and I have no problems with drop out on 2.0, 5.1 and DTS. I've been using RB since the first few betas, and I've never expereienced any major problems.

[Joergen]

The player, burner used, media used, burning speed, burning software used etc etc is a factor. But I however have tested several RB discs on 5-6 different brand of dvd player without problems.

I have had audio dropouts on one Pioneer player with DVDShrink output and shrink is considered "flawless" by many.

Unlike almost everybody, I read-test each disc I burn in a regular Lite-On DVD-ROM, which is closest to your average dvd player, while your burner might read anything.

[DVD Maniac]

It would be nice if someone who is experiencing the problem would try fixing it with IFOEDIT -- then I could at least have something to grab onto. But in the meantime, since no one seems to have the time to try it, I can't even confirm that this is a problem.

jdobbs, what exactly are you asking for here? I am very happy to help but need some guidance on what you need. Are you reffering to washing the offending titleset through IFOEDIT with a vob strip? I am aware this can sometimes fix dodgy timecodes or audio sync problems but don't know enough about what Rebuilder is actually doing to know if this is a sensible test to run??????

[Noah]

Originally posted by Joergen
The player, burner used, media used, burning speed, burning software used etc etc is a factor.
No, I don't believe any of that's relevant except the player. We need to separate what I would call "disc quality" issues with data compliance issues. The former being the burner/media/burning software and the latter being audio remuxing and fault tolerance of hardware players.


The audio drop-out issue is a data compliance issue. I don't believe disc quality can cause a player to lose the audio stream while having no impact on video. The correlation between audio drop-outs and chapter breaks further belies any connection.

But I however have tested several RB discs on 5-6 different brand of dvd player without problems.
If your testing falls short of watching entire movies in multichannel audio using a digital connection to an outboard decoder/receiver, I'm not sure you'd encounter this issue at all. That's not to say this is a trivial issue.

[DVD Maniac]

If your testing falls short of watching entire movies in multichannel audio using a digital connection to an outboard decoder/receiver, I'm not sure you'd encounter this issue at all. That's not to say this is a trivial issue.

Noah,
That's a very good point. ALL the attempts that I have considered as "flawed" results have only resulted from watching the entire backup on either of my set-tops with external decoders. The drop-outs appear random in that there is no correlation to chapter points or complex video scenes. Tests with the same sources on Shrink or Recode with the same media and player combinations result in no audio drop out problems (BTW - I always use high quality blanks) leading me to believe that its a Rebuilder issue.

If someone will indicate the exact IFOEDIT tinkering that needs trying I will gladly accomodate

[Noah]

Hmmm, that's curious that your drop-outs are random. Most, but not all of mine are at chapter breaks.

I'm not too knowledgeable about IFOEdit or IFOUpdate, but I think what he's basically suggesting is to demux and remux using different tools to see if that removes the drop-outs. OK, I just realized I don't exactly know what he's asking for either. ;)

If we can get a clarification, I'll certainly test it out as well.

[jdobbs]

I always backup DVDs the same day I buy them and then watch the backup -- so I watch them end-to-end. No problems.

You don't have to demux anything to test IFOEDIT.

1. Get IFOEDIT
2. Run IFOEDIT and select the IFO for the offending VTS.
3. Select VOB EXTRAS.
4. Make sure all that is clicked is:
- Correct VOB-Unit...
- Correct original IFO files
- Adjust VOB Unit pointers
- Adjust audio/subp point
5. Click OK and run it.

Then burn a DVD-RW and see if the audio dropouts go away. If they do, then I know I can start looking for differences. The reason I mention this is that someone mentioned that this might work in the past.

[Joergen]

Originally posted by Noah
If your testing falls short of watching entire movies in multichannel audio using a digital connection to an outboard decoder/receiver, I'm not sure you'd encounter this issue at all. That's not to say this is a trivial issue.

That's right, I nor none of my friends use digital connections for the amplifier. But I did suggest a few days ago (in another thread) that everybody having drop-outs must be using digital outputs, as it is said to be a problem with DVDShrink also.

[jdobbs]

I use digital connections exclusively. I don't have anything connected to the analog out jacks... still don't see it.

[DVD Maniac]

You don't have to demux anything to test IFOEDIT. 1. Get IFOEDIT 2. Run IFOEDIT and select the IFO for the offending VTS. 3. Select VOB EXTRAS. 4. Make sure all that is clicked is: - Correct VOB-Unit... - Correct original IFO files - Adjust VOB Unit pointers - Adjust audio/subp point 5. Click OK and run it.

OK, this is the method I suspected you were reffering to. It is a recommended step after doing any vob replacements using tools like Menu edit. Its supposed to cure problems with not being able to scan properly with set-tops. I will give it a go with Master and Commander which has been my most problematic source to date.

jdobbs - do you have the PAL version of this movie so we can compare results?

[jdobbs]

Sorry, but no. Everything I have is NTSC.

[DVD Maniac]

Will the before and after .ifo's be enough for you to trace the differences?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
Will the before and after .ifo's be enough for you to trace the differences? All I really need is a confirmation or not that it actually fixes it. I can take it from there. I need to know definitely, though. If I start digging through VOB sectors I'd like to be pretty sure that the answer is in there somewhere.

[DVD Maniac]

I ran the following test -

Title : Master and Commander (PAL - Interlaced)
Audio : DD5 and DTS (Source), DTS (Output)

Originally I did this with Rebuilder versions 0.50 through 0.52 and was getting Audio drop out at random (but consistent) points through the film.

I now ran the same backup with 0.54 and created two +RW's to watch -

Disc 1 - Rebuulder Result
Disc 2 - Rebuilder result, with the main VTS run through ifoedit and remerged.

I was surprised to find that ALL the audio drop outs had gone from Disc 1 and so I did not have to jump to Disc 2 to see if there was a difference. This may of course just be a one-off so I am going to do a few more to make sure.

Has there been any changes in the re-muxing code from v0.52 to v0.54 which would explain this? (I did not see anything in the changelog which would indicate this)

[Noah]

Why don't you try this on a disc that already stutters? I.E., rip a stuttering VTS, apply the fix, and burn. That's what I'm working on...

[Joergen]

Then again, running in circles, standalones might read the +RW better than whatever media you used before.

A friend of mine had audio dropouts on the R2 version of Master and commander using the DD5.1 track, this was with a DVDShrink backup! It's prolly a good test disc.

[Noah]

Originally posted by Joergen
Then again, running in circles, standalones might read the +RW better than whatever media you used before.
Regardless of how well it reads the disc, its either going to have audio dropouts or not have audio dropouts as a result of other factors.

[DVD Maniac]

Why don't you try this on a disc that already stutters? I.E., rip a stuttering VTS, apply the fix, and burn. That's what I'm working on...

I deleted all my previous results with audio drop-out (assume you mean this and not stutter - which jdobbs already defined as a different problem)

Then again, running in circles, standalones might read the +RW better than whatever media you used before. A friend of mine had audio dropouts on the R2 version of Master and commander using the DD5.1 track, this was with a DVDShrink backup! It's prolly a good test disc.

My test was meant to be media, burning sw and player "neutral", ie two versions burnt using Nero on the same DVD+RW brand discs. I had the audio drop problem on the same +RW media previously so these factors can be treated as consistent across the test. I don't want to jump to any conclusions until I run at least three more tests but my initial thought is that changes in the Rebuilder remux code since v0.52 may have fixed the problem - only he can advise on the validity of this claim!

[gizzin]

so if i already burnt the output i could fix the audio dropouts, by copying it to the hd and demuxing it with ifoedit? does this actually work?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by gizzin
so if i already burnt the output i could fix the audio dropouts, by copying it to the hd and demuxing it with ifoedit? does this actually work? You don't demux -- you use the vob tools to correct VOBU pointers. It still remains to be seen whether it works.

[DVD Maniac]

I got audio drop on my last backup which I am attempting an ifoedit fix as I type this. Will report results in 30 mins or so

[DVD Maniac]

My last backup was a set of episode discs which I used Rebuilder for and took for granted that they would work OK based on previous experience......

On watching the first disc and first episode there was severe audio drop from the word go. I had deleted the Rebuilder results on my hard drive so I copied the disc contents back to hard drive and ran the ifoedit vob strip process (retaining all vob's of course), rebuilt the titlesets, ran correct VTS sectors and burnt on to a +RW.

Result - Drop-outs are still there and as bad as the first result :(

This is very annoying, especially as I now have 5 trashed +R's and don't know if I can trust Rebuilder with any title now...

:mad:

[jdobbs]

There has to be something different about your configuration. As I've said before, I've only gotten one dropout in lots of discs... especially if you get the same thing with the IFO "fix VOBU pointers".

Well at least I can eliminate the VOBU pointers as the problem. Could you try something else for me? Demux the offending audio track from the original and the copy and see if they match. Maybe it's something as simple as missing packets.

I wouldn't start slamming Rebuilder yet... I think this may be just centered on a few users.

[DVD Maniac]

First I am trying to run the Rebuilder result through Shrink at 99% compression to see if that fixes it. I will also try the demux as you suggested.

Sorry if I came across as slamming your app - its still a great innovation and I am certain these minor flaws will be ironed out soon. Its just frustrating when you waste multiple discs like this!

[DVD Maniac]

OK, I think we have the symptom identified (but not sure what the route cause is).

My Shrink test made no difference.

I them ran the demux that you suggested, here are the file sizes of the two audio streams before and after the Rebuilder processing -

Audio Stream Label 80 (DD5)

Original File size 446,801,152 Bytes
Rebuilder output 446,800,029 Bytes

Audio Stream 81 (DD2)

Original File size 223,404,032 Bytes
Rebuilder output 223,400,576 Bytes

So it looks like Rebuilder is dropping some audio packets in the final remuxing stage which would certainly explain intermitent audio drop out (or else there would be sync drift which does not happen). I am not sure how you are maintaining sync with this final process but it looks like the dropped packets are being traded for audio / video sync

Hope this helps you track down the route cause!

[Noah]

I don't think <4kb is enough to attribute so many dropouts to missing packets...

[the-warriners]

I think you will find that is actually 446mb

[jdobbs]

I don't think so... that would be larger than the entire audio stream.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
So it looks like Rebuilder is dropping some audio packets in the final remuxing stage which would certainly explain intermitent audio drop out (or else there would be sync drift which does not happen). I am not sure how you are maintaining sync with this final process but it looks like the dropped packets are being traded for audio / video sync Actually sync is easy -- each packet has a SCR (and PTS) that says where is should be temporally and I use that to determine what point it should be inserted in the stream.

Was there only one drop on this test? It looks like a single packet was dropped (each packet is < 2K)

This helps a lot. Thanks.

[DVD Maniac]

The data I posted was from a Movie that I did last night (Open Range) which I watched for the first ten minutes and heard two brief audio drops (difficult to judge exactly how long, say 50-100 ms each).

Some simple maths shows that would match the the % difference in audio stream byte size (assuming these were the only drops).

The more I think about it, this MUST be an indication of the problem. If the audio stream is meant to be left untouched during the remuxing stage then the demuxed streams from original and processed titlesets should be EXACTLY the same size should they not?

[jdobbs]

Interesting. Open Range is one of the movies I've done over-and-over, I keep it on my hard drive for testing. I've never experienced an audio drop out.

[Joergen]

But jdobbs you have the R1 version and DVD Maniac prolly the R2 version? So it's not comparable.

Not to mention there are probably 4 or 5 different versions of an R2 release (nordic, dutch, ger/fra, spa/por, ita, eng)

[jdobbs]

Roger that.

[jdobbs]

I guess this is a good time to ask... is anyone getting consistent audio dropouts on anything other than PAL? Remember -- there are lots of reasons why you might get an occasional audio dropout (the disc, the player, the digital player, layer breaks), so the key word here is "consistent".

[DVD Maniac]

Just to confirm I have the R2 PAL version of Open Range

[Noah]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I guess this is a good time to ask... is anyone getting consistent audio dropouts on anything other than PAL?
Yep...consistent dropouts in NTSC, most at chapter breaks.

[jkbauer]

Hello. I am new to the RB world. I am attempting to backup one of my dvd box sets (NTSC region 1, 2.0 dolby). On my first attempt, I experienced an audio sync problem. I have yet to burn a disc, only working from the HD at the moment.

I used Shrink (or Recode) to compile (@100%) the data/episodes that I ultimately want on a disc. I then use RB to encode, following the setting guide provided (CCE SP 2.66+, 3 pass). I did not watch all the episodes from end to end. I randomly chose areas to watch. The audio sync problem occurred at a chapter break. The VTS files (title sets) before and after this problem title set seemed ok. I double checked the original files (encoded by Recode) and the audio was fine.

Unfortunately, I deleted the RB-encoded files before finding this thread. I am currently re-encoding with RB using the same files. Hopefully, the problem will go away. If not, I will try to run the files through IFOedit as suggested to see if that helps. Will report back to see if this is really a random problem.

[DVD Maniac]

This is a real long shot but I just wanted to run it past everyone, particularly Mr dobbs. Usually before feeding the source files to Rebuilder, I will do some Title stripping and/or menu vob shrinking / stripping. I do NOT use programs like DVDStripper which I find tend to be slower than what I can achieve with some manual work with Ifoedit & Menuedit and I am never certain that unstripped Title's or Titlesets are left "clean"

In the case of the lost packet Title data I posted, the Titleset of the main movie was completely untouched, not even the menu was altered. So I am confident that this should not affect the end result of the encoding process that Rebuilder does with CCE. However, I wanted to make sure that this is not in some way affecting things.

[DVD Maniac]

I just demuxed the audio streams from another movie I did with Rebuilder but have not had a chance to watch yet. The audio stream byte sizes are IDENTICAL before and after Rebuilder processing which suggests that there will be no audio drops on this. I will watch this later and see if the audio packet loss theory holds good!

[jkbauer]

From my earlier post -

I re-encoded the files using RB and the audio sync problem occurred again at exactly the same chapter break as the first time. I processed the problem title set in IFOedit and that did not solve the problem.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, I am attempting to remove the chapter break using IFOedit and then encode in RB to see if that changes anything.

[DVD Maniac]

The movie I reported as having identical Audio stream size before and ater processing has audio drop out on it from the word go.:devil:


Looks like its back to Shrink or Recode for me for the time being as I am getting this problem at least every other backup. I just hope jdobbs can fix the problem as I really like the video quality output it produces with CCE.....


I just don't understand it :confused:

[jdobbs]

Neither do I. Almost no one is getting this. It seems to be centered on just a small group of users.

[DVD Maniac]

Noone has commented on my earlier post :

This is a real long shot but I just wanted to run it past everyone, particularly Mr dobbs. Usually before feeding the source files to Rebuilder, I will do some Title stripping and/or menu vob shrinking / stripping. I do NOT use programs like DVDStripper which I find tend to be slower than what I can achieve with some manual work with Ifoedit & Menuedit and I am never certain that unstripped Title's or Titlesets are left "clean" In the case of the lost packet Title data I posted, the Titleset of the main movie was completely untouched, not even the menu was altered. So I am confident that this should not affect the end result of the encoding process that Rebuilder does with CCE. However, I wanted to make sure that this is not in some way affecting things.

I really don't think this is a factor, but I not the expert here....

[Joergen]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
getting this problem at least every other backup.

I have to again say that I've done roughly 20 different backups of PAL discs, of all sorts and never had audio delay. I once thought I had, but it was an old western with dubbed english and all the sound fx were in perfect sync :P

So far my (very few) problems have been of a consistant and globally replicable sort, in this order.

1. hundreds-of-segments bug (fixed)
2. button over video bug (fixed)
3. 16:9 sub bug (fixed)

I wish you'd do some further testing DVD Maniac, perhaps set up the tools on another PC from scratch.

[gizzin]

Fix Them Audio Dropouts, Ill send you more money $$

[DVD Maniac]

I wish you'd do some further testing DVD Maniac, perhaps set up the tools on another PC from scratch.

Joergen,
I am happy for you that Rebuilder works just fine for you, but I am not usually inclined to post these problems for the fun of it. I am getting audio drop consistently enough for it to be a significant enough problem to identify to both the programmer and the forum members so that we can make Rebuilder work consistently for all its users. That's the purpose of a forum and a set of beta testers is it not?

I don't have the luxury of another pc to try the app on, and besides which I have never had problems with the other "lower" quality applications out there with my current set up so I have no reason to believe its hardware or OS related. I have spent a lot of time trying the Ifoedit routines and audio demuxing suggestions to try to help out jdobbs identify the problems so your claim that I am not doing enough testing is not fair.

This is a genuine issue with the application that others are experiencing and needs fixing - just like the other bugs that have been ironed out during this Beta test phase.

[Sir Didymus]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
The movie I reported as having identical Audio stream size before and ater processing has audio drop out on it from the word go.:devil:
...
I just don't understand it :confused:

It seems the problem is not related [or at least not just related] to missed audio packets...

I don't want to bring anyone on fool conjectures, and I want to say I am not experiencing this issue, but it could be also useful to check if the results of the encoding process has been carried out perfectly.

Rebuilder.inf is reporting, for each segment, the frame numbers that should be produced during the encoding step...

Maybe it will take some long time, but it could be important to know if in your D2VAVS folder, each one of the m2v files actually contain the expected frame numbers. To check this VirtualDubMod could be useful...

I know this condition (wrong frame nr in the encoded cells) should never happen, and it should be reported by DVD-RB, but I am actually doing some "harsh" tests, cutting intentionally some frames in the m2v files produced by CCE, and what I am observing is that the provoked incongruencies are actually not stopping the rebuild process. The resulting title have (of course) evident audio/video glitches in it...

I say again: sorry if I bring you to lose time, and if the present post will demonstrate to be based on wrong assumptions...

Cheers,
SD

[DVD Maniac]

Sir Didymus,
You may well be on to something there and its on a simlar line to a series of tests I am now running with some well known third party authoring and vob tinkering tools.

I think there is something going on with the way Rebuilder is dealing with the GOP timecodes/frame-indexes. These errors are probably very small so as not to cause problems on the majority of media / player combinations, but on others (poor sods like me) they are causing these annoying audio drops.

I will post these results later.

[DVD Maniac]

Here are the results of the tests I have run with a movie (Paycheck)that had severe audio drop problems with Rebuilder:

Source Files : The main movie VTS Produced by Rebuilder
Tools Used : Vobedit, DVD-Lab v1.4, Cahpter Xtractor

First I demuxed the Rebuilder movie VTS into the .m2v and main audio .ac3 files with vobedit to run the following simple tests :

1. Simple Movie only output (no chapters, single vob)
Authored into a movie only disc using only the source files.

RESULT : PASSED - Audio drops have gone

2. Movie only with chapters (Still single vob)
Same movie only disc but this time authored with the chapters from the relevant .ifo file (used Chapter Xtractor)

RESULT : PASSED - Audio drops are gone, even at chapter points


My conclusions from this are :

1. There is nowt wrong with my PC/Hardware (Joergen please note!)
2. There is nowt wrong with my burning sw/method/media/players
3. The .m2v files created by Rebuilder are fine
4. Something is going wrong in the remuxing stage which is creating small errors which some players can cope with / others cannot and result in audio drop-outs.

Not sure if this helps you to solve the problem jdobbs but I am confident that its nothing to do with my setup , media, players or Digital amp.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
Here are the results of the tests I have run with a movie (Paycheck)that had severe audio drop problems with Rebuilder:

Source Files : The main movie VTS Produced by Rebuilder
Tools Used : Vobedit, DVD-Lab v1.4, Cahpter Xtractor

First I demuxed the Rebuilder movie VTS into the .m2v and main audio .ac3 files with vobedit to run the following simple tests :

1. Simple Movie only output (no chapters, single vob)
Authored into a movie only disc using only the source files.

RESULT : PASSED - Audio drops have gone

2. Movie only with chapters (Still single vob)
Same movie only disc but this time authored with the chapters from the relevant .ifo file (used Chapter Xtractor)

RESULT : PASSED - Audio drops are gone, even at chapter points


My conclusions from this are :

1. There is nowt wrong with my PC/Hardware (Joergen please note!)
2. There is nowt wrong with my burning sw/method/media/players
3. The .m2v files created by Rebuilder are fine
4. Something is going wrong in the remuxing stage which is creating small errors which some players can cope with / others cannot and result in audio drop-outs.

Not sure if this helps you to solve the problem jdobbs but I am confident that its nothing to do with my setup , media, players or Digital amp. I also think it may be something particularly associated with PAL.

What happens if you pull out a single offending cell (maybe with VOBEDIT) and have IFOEDIT create a new IFO for it? Does it still have dropouts? If so, it would be nice if I could get a copy of that cell for testing. This would also help identify whether it was the multiplexing that is causing the problem or something else.

[Noah]

Originally posted by jdobbs
I also think it may be something particularly associated with PAL.
I've never done a PAL disc but I consistently get dropouts. Mine don't appear to be as numerous (per disc) compared to DVD Maniac, but I wonder if that's more to do with our DVD players than the souce format. I see a variable range of susceptibility to this problem across the players I own.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Noah
I've never done a PAL disc but I consistently get dropouts. Mine don't appear to be as numerous (per disc) compared to DVD Maniac, but I wonder if that's more to do with our DVD players than the souce format. I see a variable range of susceptibility to this problem across the players I own. There is also an impact associated with your audio system if you are using direct digital connection. You may want (sometime as a test) to hook the analog audio outputs concurrently (to another amplifier, your television for example) with the digital. If the analog continues to work during the digital dropout the cause is not the disc...

[Noah]

Yeah, I've tried that. I get dropouts on all outputs when I get them.

[Joergen]

DVD Maniac: The reason I suggested setting the RB environment up on another clean PC is cause its not like for instance DVDShrink, and not even like some of the other multi-tool packages that force-install everything in one go.

I'd like to see you set everything up on another PC so that you follow the links in the setup thread and make sure there is no previously installed software bugging out the process.

With tools like DVDShrink, the programmer controls everything, all the way from decrypting to burning the result. So if the output is not as it should be, he can replicate it and fix it if he can get a hold of the problem-disc.

Hope you guys find a solution. DVD-RB is so fabulous that everybody should have the privilege to use it.

[DVD Maniac]

What happens if you pull out a single offending cell (maybe with VOBEDIT) and have IFOEDIT create a new IFO for it? Does it still have dropouts? If so, it would be nice if I could get a copy of that cell for testing. This would also help identify whether it was the multiplexing that is causing the problem or something else.

Jdobbs,
I have done this and the drop-outs are there exactly as with the full title. File size is a bit of a problem here - 206MB, sorry but I think its worth the effort you get this as there are drop-outs all over the damn thing. I don't have an ftp to use - do you have anything available which we can use? (emails out the question).

[DVD Maniac]

I'd like to see you set everything up on another PC so that you follow the links in the setup thread and make sure there is no previously installed software bugging out the process.

Joergen,
Appreciate you are trying to help out but believe me I followed the set-up instructions to the letter and I really cannot see that other sw is interfering as I do registry cleanups regularly.

Lets see if this corrupted cell I have created lets jdobbs nail this problem - if not then I will consider a system re-install as a last course of action!

[brikin]

jdobbs I get audio dropouts on X2 and Kill Bill. I only us NTSC. These audio dropouts only happen on my Panasonic DVD player not my Sony. I will try the fix with IFOEdit and see if that fixes the problem on my Panasonic.

[Joergen]

Ah birkin finally said the magic words "not on my other player". I find it impossible that one person has an audio dropout problem that happens on every player including software players where other people dont encoding the same disc.

But if there is a problem that only happens with a specific type of player, then its probably globally replicable and fixable.

[Noah]

Joergen,

I don't think anyone claimed this was a universal problem...I've been commenting on its variability almost ever since I started experiencing it. You seem to want to defend DVD Rebuilder against being the culprit of this problem. Perhaps you should just be glad you're not experiencing it, but your next player may very well be among those afflicted.

We all appreciate Rebuilder and all the work jdobbs has put into it, which is why we want to help improve it. Your denial of the problem just because you haven't had it is not helping.

[DVD Maniac]

I don't think anyone claimed this was a universal problem...I've been commenting on its variability almost ever since I started experiencing it. You seem to want to defend DVD Rebuilder against being the culprit of this problem. Perhaps you should just be glad you're not experiencing it, but your next player may very well be among those afflicted. We all appreciate Rebuilder and all the work jdobbs has put into it, which is why we want to help improve it. Your denial of the problem just because you haven't had it is not helping.

Noah,
Second that. I don't have an axe to grind against jdobbs or the program and I am sure you don't either. I am simply reporting the faults as I find them and trying to helpout in finding the solution.

My posts and reported test results bear testimony to that......

BTW - I also have two set-top players. My Philips (normally the fussiest) gives the worst results. The Panasonic normaly eats most things thrown at it but even it delivers drop out at the same points (albeit for slightly less time each time). Please can I ask Joergen and other doubters to accept that this is a genuine bug with the program and nothing to do with glitchy PC's, the odd one off extremely fussy cheapo Player (mine are not!), the air pressure or any other factor which the tests we have run demonstrate.

Anyway, while I wait for jdobbs to let me know how we get this cell over to him, I also tried one more test. Using the .m2v file demuxed from the Rebuilder output, I ran the good old ifoedit "Remux .m2v" routine with the source VTS for the main movie. And guess what? The audio drops have gone again. I am even more sure now its to do with the final stage of the Rebuilder process.

[Noah]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
Anyway, while I wait for jdobbs to let me know how we get this cell over to him, I also tried one more test. Using the .m2v file demuxed from the Rebuilder output, I ran the good old ifoedit "Remux .m2v" routine with the source VTS for the main movie. And guess what? The audio drops have gone again. I am even more sure now its to do with the final stage of the Rebuilder process.
That's very interesting...good idea on the test, as well.

I could potentially host some files. I'm not sure my hosting company would be thrilled about me transferring copyrighted material via their servers, but I think I can sneak it under the radar.

OTOH, maybe jdobbs can just replicate this test with a known stuttering disc and compare the output of each method. If you need R1 examples, some of my worst discs for dropouts are Die Another Day (DTS), X2 (DD5.1), and The Terminator (DD5.1).

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Noah
That's very interesting...good idea on the test, as well.

I could potentially host some files. I'm not sure my hosting company would be thrilled about me transferring copyrighted material via their servers, but I think I can sneak it under the radar.

OTOH, maybe jdobbs can just replicate this test with a known stuttering disc and compare the output of each method. If you need R1 examples, some of my worst discs for dropouts are Die Another Day (DTS), X2 (DD5.1), and The Terminator (DD5.1). I've done X2 with no problems. I have the Terminator (I assume you mean the original one) which I haven't yet tried to backup, so I'll try it and see what happens. But I'm not too hopeful that I'll be able to repeat it...

[Joergen]

The reason why I'm so suspicious is that I personally own the following players:

Panasonic A350 (old)
Sony NS430 (best)
PS2 V7 PAL (flaky)
Euroline 2500 (cheap)

That I use in different rooms or situations frequently, and my friends have:

Panasonic S-35
Pioneer DV-717
Euroline 4200
Pioneer DVD LCD car player (dunno model)
Pioneer 600(-something)

All PAL players, and so far only one DVDShrink disc with reported dropouts. I love RB so much that if I ever bought a player that DID have droputs, I'd sell it (or jump on it). But I hope you guys can iron out the bugs together.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by brikin
jdobbs I get audio dropouts on X2 and Kill Bill. I only us NTSC. These audio dropouts only happen on my Panasonic DVD player not my Sony. I will try the fix with IFOEdit and see if that fixes the problem on my Panasonic. If these are NTSC, I've done them both, no problem. I've tested them on a JVC, Sony, and two kinds of Apex players (1200 and 1500).

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Noah
That's very interesting...good idea on the test, as well.

I could potentially host some files. I'm not sure my hosting company would be thrilled about me transferring copyrighted material via their servers, but I think I can sneak it under the radar.

OTOH, maybe jdobbs can just replicate this test with a known stuttering disc and compare the output of each method. If you need R1 examples, some of my worst discs for dropouts are Die Another Day (DTS), X2 (DD5.1), and The Terminator (DD5.1). I just looked at my copy of the Terminator. It is already sized for DVD-5 and it doesn't have a DD5.1 track. You must have the "Special Edition" in which the original mono audio track has been remixed.

[DVD Maniac]

Why don't we find a way of sending jdobbs the dodgy cell to test? Then we know what we are dealing with.

[Noah]

I just looked at my copy of the Terminator. It is already sized for DVD-5 and it doesn't have a DD5.1 track. You must have the "Special Edition" in which the original mono audio track has been remixed.
Yep...its the newer version.

Is there a tool out there that can analyze DVD packet structure?

I really think DVD Maniac's test is a strong indicator of the source of this problem, but I just don't know how to go about analyzing the problematic data and comparing it to non-problematic data. I'm certainly willing to try if someone can point me in the right direction.

jdobbs, on another track, maybe you could contact the author of IFOEdit and have him take a look at your remuxing code?

[jdobbs]

He's long gone and working on DVDXCOPY... not a lot of incentive to make DVD-RB work.

[jdobbs]

@dvd maniac

Check your PM.

[DVD Maniac]

Jdobbs.

Done - check your PM.

[Noah]

Hmmm, too bad IFOEdit isn't open source...you could at least look at it, then. I don't think much else out there remuxes.

I'm sure you'd rather track down the problem and fix it, but maybe there's a way to develop a command-line interface to IFOEdit (ala eclcce.exe) and have it do the rebuilding. Not the most elegant solution, I know. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Noah
Hmmm, too bad IFOEdit isn't open source...you could at least look at it, then. I don't think much else out there remuxes.

I'm sure you'd rather track down the problem and fix it, but maybe there's a way to develop a command-line interface to IFOEdit (ala eclcce.exe) and have it do the rebuilding. Not the most elegant solution, I know. I'm just throwing ideas out there. Well, I'm following the standards... so it should be correct, it really isn't that complicated. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be a bug in there somewhere.

BBTools has muxing code in it. But the techniques I'm using are a little unique -- especially merging audio/subpictures from the original as it is building.

The IFOEDit muxing code has bugs of its own... especially with NTSC that has pulldown applied, so I don't think that would be a good baseline to use.

[gizzin]

what program do you use jdobbs to burn the output of rebuilder? what version of cce are u using?

[jdobbs]

I use CCE version 2.50 SP and 2.69.01.09 Basic for encoding. I use B's Recorder Gold to burn (it came with my DVD Burner).

[jkbauer]

hi jdobbs.
I did some more researching on the forum and discovered there were other threads specifically about audio delay. I probably shouldn't be here, but since I already posted, I'll finish up here.

I tried various tests to see if I could correct the problem. Nothing as complicated as the experienced users around here. In my case the audio actually starts before the video, but either way is not in sync. The problem always occurs at the exact same chapter point. Whether I backup the whole disc, selected titles, or just that title set, the problem always occurs. My guess is that there is something about that file that Rebuilder does not like.

I have gone about the long way to get this backup to play correctly. But in case you are interested, it is West Wing, Season 2, Disc 5, 2nd episode ("17 People"), chapter 5 (chapter 6 should be credits).

I have not tried to play the disc in a set top player yet, only on my PC (PowerDVD). I have attempted to back up another disc, and that one seemed to be fine. DVD-RB is a great program. I will need to work with it more, and hopefully be more useful to the forum in the future.

[intimidation]

Hi all...

I too am am getting audio drop outs on every movie that i produce through RB (All Pal). I have also narrowed down that it only happens in my pioneer 656A and not in my cheaper samsung 709... I have tried using different media only to get the same result.
My pioneer is connected through digital coax to reciever but i tried connecting via analogue and the problem was still there with the pioneer.

I have been reading posts and waiting for the solution to this problem.

@ Maniac. U are not alone with this problem...!!! :)

@jdobbs exellent work... quality is fantastic...

Bradley

[Joergen]

Thanks for the report. I think it's comforting to hear it's player specific.. i still cant quite swallow the fact that some person would have dropouts on EVERY movie and EVERY standalone without exception.. that cant be RB's fault, but one player getting dropouts probably is.

[Noah]

Originally posted by Joergen
i still cant quite swallow the fact that some person would have dropouts on EVERY movie and EVERY standalone without exception..
Which no one ever claimed... :rolleyes:

Video Dude,

It would be a misnomer to classify this as a "Pioneer problem." I for one have encountered it to varying degrees on players of 3 different brands, none of them Pioneer. Keep in mind that there are far fewer manufacturers of DVD chipsets than there are manufacturers of DVD players, which means that players of various different brands use the same chips and would likely share the same attributes, including susceptibility to this problem. Moreover, brands such as Pioneer often use DVD chipsets from several companies. Sometimes even different revisions of one specific model will contain different chipsets. The bottom line is that tracing this problem down to a brand is pretty much impossible.

[DVD Maniac]

This debate is getting off track and also rather tedious (sorry but thats the way I am feeling).

ALL encoding utilities that I have used have their flaws or bugs to a greater or lessor extent which will produce potential problems in the output VOB files they create. Just read the forums for Shrink, Recode, DVD95 etc etc for evidence of that - even CCE ain't PERFECT. These "flaws" will produce different outcomes depending on all the factors like burning software, media and yes the player.

Taking an extreme example, say the good old REMPEG (I am sure lots of you remember the good old days of REMPEG 15 hour encodes and ifoedit remuxing). The results from this were frankly pretty poor, some results played OK, but a lot did not with blocky or freezing frames on many players. That's because REMPEG produces a lot of anamolies in the video stream and many players just can't cope.

Now to another extreme, take the "best" encoder on the market - CCE and with Rebuilder we are getting very high quality results but with some much smaller anomolies, errors, call them what you want. So now, instead of 50% of players having problems, we now have say 10% having problems - and this is what the audio drop out problem is all about.

So can I please ask that the owners of the 90% player group please give the "my player(s) work fine so it must be your PC, Media, Player" rap a rest and let us poor souls with the 10% group get on and help jdobbs fix the problem so we get the % up to 99% or as close to 100% as we can get!

[Joergen]

Of course the sooner the problem is fixed the better. It will make DVD-RB more reliable, respectable in the eye of the masses and accepted as THE CCE backup tool.

Somebody in NTSC land with the delay/drift/dropout problem should indicate the make and model of player so there would be a slight chance jdobbs could find such a player to test with.

[Noah]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
So can I please ask that the owners of the 90% player group please give the "my player(s) work fine so it must be your PC, Media, Player" rap a rest and let us poor souls with the 10% group get on and help jdobbs fix the problem so we get the % up to 99% or as close to 100% as we can get!Yeah, I'm at a point where I don't care to convince anyone else of the seriousness and the source of this problem.

As long as jdobbs takes it seriously...that's my only concern.

[luphy]

Those with audio drop outs:

Maybe you can take the re-encoded movie(s) and go to an electronics store and test it on as many DVD players as you can.

If you can even find out which chip each DVD player uses, that would go a long way to finding out if it's specific to a certain chip.

I'm curious....just how many different DVD player models are out there? Over a thousand?

[Joergen]

I think it's pretty safe to say each player model, which in essence is a combination of hardware and firmware, is unique. The constant need for cheaper and cheaper solutions is driving the revision of hardware. The PS2 is a good example of "one player" that in fact is 20 or more players with 9 revisions of hardware who knows how many software, 5 completely new motherboards.. only the outside casing has remained the same. :)

[DVD Maniac]

Look all, I realise everyone is trying to help out amd all but this player / Rebuilder compatibility debate is really going to get us nowhere. Joergen is spot on about player complexity - compiling a Rebiulder "compatibility" list for jdobbs to find the route cause is not just impossible its just plain silly.

Read the earlier posts in this thread and you will see that jdobbs now has some specific cell material that he is analysing in order to find what is causing the problem and hopefully fix it.

Lets just be patient now and let the man do his thing - I am sure he will nail this problem and we can forget about trips to Dixons / PC World / wherever with our +RW's in our eager mits for testing purposes!

@luphy
At least you made me laugh with this one - that's a real belter of an idea!

Best Buy / Dixons Shop Assistant : " Can I halp you sir"

Doom 9 Forum member : "Yes, I would like to test this dodgy looking DVD on all your players"

Best Buy / Dixons Shop Assistant : "Checking for Rebuilder compatibility are we sir - you are only the 4th today!"

Doom 9 Forum member : "Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"





:D

[Oldeman]

This is not just a CCE + DVD-RB problem.

I get the audio dropouts on QuEnc + DVD-RB created DVDs on about half my DVD players (mostly Toshibas). The audio gets severely out of sync with the video due to the dropouts.

My APEX 1500 and Philips DVDR75 do not show the audio dropouts.

However, ReJig + DVD-RB DVDs work fine on all.

the Oldeman

[Noah]

Originally posted by Oldeman
However, ReJig + DVD-RB DVDs work fine on all.
Have you done the same titles with each method to verify this?


I just realized that I've always had "AudioDub(BlankClip())" checked. Could this have any effect? As I understand it, this fakes an audio track for CCE in order to prevent a memory leak.

I know we think the problem is with Rebuilder's remuxing in the rebuild stage, which I don't think this setting would affect.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Oldeman
This is not just a CCE + DVD-RB problem.

I get the audio dropouts on QuEnc + DVD-RB created DVDs on about half my DVD players (mostly Toshibas). The audio gets severely out of sync with the video due to the dropouts.

My APEX 1500 and Philips DVDR75 do not show the audio dropouts.

However, ReJig + DVD-RB DVDs work fine on all.

the Oldeman Curiouser and curiouser. If it is the muxing... it would have to happen in ReJig as well.

[Noah]

Any news on this issue?

Were you able to find any anomolies in what DVD Maniac sent you, jdobbs?

[Oldeman]

I just tried Dvdrebuilder v.56 with Quenc 51D2 on R1 movie Blues Brothers. The video looks very good.

As before, the resulting DVD has severe audio drop outs on all my Toshiba players, 4900, 4800. and 3950. The Audio gets ahead of the video.

My Apex 1500, PowerDVD and Philips DVDR75 play it without problem.

I have not run this particular movie throuigh Rejig. but I am confident It will be fine, as I have never seen this problem on a ReJig trancoded disk.

WinXP system 3.0E P4, 512Mb DDR 32000 memory,
DVD-RB options Quenc mode, Dynamic bit rates, supress warning prompts,
Quenc one pass mode,
AVS options: convert to YUY2, Audio dub(blankclip) no advanced options. Setup options: run encoders minimized. MPEG2DEC3DG add to avs file not checked.

Any ideas?

[DVD Maniac]

I have not heard back from jdobbs for some time now regarding the test cell material. I do hope he has not given up on the problem as I think the number of posts have demonstrated that its not just one or two of us affected.

jdobbs,
Please can you comment on what we can expect in future releaseses?

- Cannot be fixed? (or cannot isolate the cause)
- Found the likely cause but V Difficult to fix - have to wait for a while longer
- ???????

We would really appreciate an update

[Oldeman]

I would like to add that the problem seems a lot worse on dolby5.1 audio and minimal on normal 2channel stero sound, if that makes any sense.

The 5 channel has very distruption audio drropouts whereas the two channel just seems to slowly lose synchronzation with the video.

I noticed this by obseving the most recent test had a film preview with non-5channel sound and it seems to work normally, so I thought AhHG this is fixed...but as soon as the feature started, bam.. severe audio dropouts...Again this only happens on some players including all my Toshibas.

Its got to be some minor timing parameter that the cheaper playert ignore,,,I think?:(

[Joergen]

The "sony" problem was fixed, and hopefully the "toshiba" problem is next. There IS progress.

[DVD Maniac]

As I have posted previously, linking this problem to particular brands of players is not the way to see it. All DVD Players are built to play 100% DVD standard compliant discs. The small glitches that all our favourite encodoing tools create, manifest themselves in different ways on different players - but its not the players fault that it cannot perfectly playback the slightly imperfect results we throw at them.

Rebuilder is simply producing small errors in the Rebuild stage which some players are saying - "Sorry I can't play this properly because its not the standard I wad designed to play" and others are just more forgiving.

Thats life :(

If I owned a player that did not show up these problems I would still want the problem fixed - what happens if my forgiving player stops working and I can't replace it with one that is?

[Joergen]

Linking this or other problems to specific players might be wrong as you said, but since the "sony" problem was for pretty much all sonys and sonys alone (except the PS2), thats what it should be called. Like a disease is called after its discoverer or even the patient :D

I'm sure jdobbs is looking into this, he's just got so much work and so little time. Plus its the summer, when programmers are distracted by the warm light emitted through the portals in their houses ;)

[SansGrip]

Wouldn't it be nice to have a software DVD player that reported every single problem it encountered during playback of a disc? I mean everything from an unreachable PGC command (not non-standard, per se, but might indicate a logic error) to timing problems to the slightest of buffer underruns in video or audio.

I would be surprised if such a thing didn't exist, but I've never heard of one. Maybe I should email Jack Valenti and ask.

;)