Convert MPEG to AVI and keep Interlace?

[ScottZ]

Hello all,

I hope you can help me with this one.

I'm trying to convert from a Anime DVD source to AVI for editing, and later back out to DVD.

I need to keep the interlace from the original MPEG for timing and quality reasons.

I'm using PremierePro and a Matrox RT Xtreme so I can see the video out while editing and it's important to keep a 29.97fps with interlace intact.

Everything I can find deals with progressive frames, deinterlacing, or inverse telecine, but that's not what I need.

I need a strict frame for frame copy (including interlace) from the MPEG to AVI.

I'm trying the latest VirtualDub MPEG2 out now and it sees the MPEG frame rate at 23.976 which I can't use. If I change it to 29.971, then the audio is out of sync (it will run longer than the video). Also, the frames output seem to be Progressive. Where mixed frames occur the usual flicker you should get on a NTSC Monitor doesn't occur.

DVD2AVI eventually reports 99% Film which makes me think the MPEG isn't a true 23.976 source all the way through.

Any ideas on this one?

Many Thanks!

[jggimi]

DVD2AVI is reporting that source was Telecined. Realize that if you keep it interlaced and make edits, your Telecining structure will be altered. That may or may not matter to you. (See www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm for details on Telecining structure).

If you ensure that Force FILM is set off (Field Operation set to "None") your .d2v project file will remain 29.97fps, and will not be set to 23.976fps.

I would recommend frameserving your project through AviSynth. A two line script is the minimum needed. Here's an example using DGIndex rather than DVD2AVI, but the procedure is the same:LoadPlugin("C:\folder\path\dgdecode.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\folder\path\file.d2v")One can manipulate individual fields within AviSynth if needed, using the SeparateFields() filter. I don't know if your NLE tools support AviSynth or not, but I assme so.

[ppera2]

I think that making intermediate AVI file is not the best idea. Unless you plan to use losless codec as huffyuv, and even so it's much time.
Is it possible to make editing with one step conversion? I mean making Mpeg2 directly. What kind editing you plan to make?

[ntojzan]

Hmm... I also use a Matrox RT system at work, tough it's RT2500 not Xtreme, however I assume that they work on a similar way. In my case Matrox RT2500 supports MPEG2 editing, so there is no need for recompression at all. I'm not going to work until friday, however if you're still unable to find a solution until then, I can check out the whole issue at work, and report you my success. Contacting Matrox support, or at least checking the user forum there would be also a good idea, since you use their hardware... One other thing: Premiere Pro has a great support for DVD authoring, are you sure you need the conversion?

[ScottZ]

I'm trying to keep the interlace and timing as true to the source as possible.

For this project I'm mainly working with the audio, but do have some minor video edits as well (1 scene removal and 1 scene replacement).

The main audio work needs to be done in AVI format unfortunatly.
I've tried to use just the avi for audio mastering and then remultiplex the audio back in, but it doesn't help the video edit portion.

I've tried to use M2 Edit, but it get's very confused on the timing with this type of source.

For that matter, every tool I've used will get confused on the timeing from the .m2v elementry stream. They can not seek or determine the correct duration of the MPEG2 video. I've crashed more than a few apps with this stream. Multiplexing any audio back in doesn't help.

For demux/muxing I've been using TMPGEnc, bbtools, Moonlight's
][Muxer.

I've tried to use Remux in ][Muxer and use Rempeg.
Rempeg at least reencodes with a structure but the timing and frames are all wrong

I've had the best luck so far with DVD2AVI 1.76 with no force film but had to swap fields for it to work with the Matrox. Goofy thing there is that Premiere Pro let's you swap feild dominance on the clip, but it doesn't work if I use no field processing in DVD2AVI. I suspect when I swap field order in DVD2AVI that I'm still not getting the true telecine video out.

I'm still seeing interlaced frames put back together as a progressive frame.

I've just ripped the source again with Smartripper 2.41 and see the .d2v. An excerpt from the SmartRipper .d2v is:

7 0 2B4F6 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
7 0 2B623 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
7 0 2B74E 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
7 0 2B8A0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
7 0 2B9A1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
7 0 2BAB9 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
7 0 2BBCA 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

Is this right??
DVD2AVI is showing:

7 0 2B4F6 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 0 2B623 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 0 2B74E 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 0 2B8A0 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 0 2B9A1 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 0 2BAB9 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2
7 0 2BBCA 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2


Going to try and use both .d2v with some tools to see how it goes.

[ScottZ]

ntojzan,

Arg! I just sold my RT2500 recently as it was collecting dust.

Your right, for the most part they do work pretty much the same.
They elemenated the I-Frame MPEG option with the Xtreme.

Also, the Xtreme doesn't look like another G400 display to your system which helped out alot of things.

There is .m2v support with capture in Premiere Pro, however it is limited to 29.97 interlaced only material (with an NTSC setup).
Since I was having to convert frame rates, I thought I'd go to AVI so I can do some work with the video in other apps.

If I try to import the .m2v in question, I get a lovely "generic import error" message. I do have an associated .wav file at 48khz so not sure what it could be complaining about other than the frame rate.

Apologize for being dumb here, but is it any easier to get 29.97 interlaced in a .m2v format than avi?

Please let me know what you find out.
Very interested to see what you find.

Thanks!

[ScottZ]

Well.. so much for that theory on the .m2v frame rate.
I've demuxed a 29.97 interlaced only vob to .m2v and it doesn't work either.

Let me know if your able to rip a vob, demux, and play on your RT2500 when you can.

[Edit] Just found out that Premiere Pro can't handle editing .m2v with the Matrox RTX. Seems to only work in Premiere 6.5. So I'm back to finding an AVI solution.

Thanks

[ScottZ]

I've been trying AVS and VirtualDub (as I can't find the plugin that works with Premiere Pro) in the following manner:

1) DVD2AVI -> Swap Field -> .d2v project -> AVS -> Encode in VirtualDub

2) DVD2AVI -> Force Film -> .d2v project -> AVS w/ 23.976 to 29.97 -> Encode in VirtualDub

3) DVD2AVI -> Force Film -> .d2v project -> AVS -> VirtualDub encode at 29.97fps.

Option 1 didn't buy me anything more than encoding from DVD2AVI directly.

Option 2 (both top and bottom fields tried) wound up with some nasty weave patterns and jerky motion.

Option 3 of course failed because VDub didn't do any telecine and I couldn't find any way to add it other than change the framerate.

Here's an example of the AVS script when using force film from DVD2AVI:

========
LoadPlugin("C:\util\dgdecode.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\video\ForceFilm.d2v")

#Bottom field first
AssumeFrameBased
SeparateFields
SelectEvery(8, 0,1, 2,3,2, 5,4, 7,6,7)
Weave

#Top field first
#AssumeFrameBased
#ComplementParity
#SeparateFields
#SelectEvery(8, 0,1, 2,3,2, 5,4, 7,6,7)
#Weave
=========

[manono]

Hi-

I need a strict frame for frame copy (including interlace) from the MPEG to AVI.

and:

I'm trying to keep the interlace and timing as true to the source as possible.

Since it's stored on the DVD as 24fps progressive film, why are you making life difficult for yourself by using, or by trying to create, telecined interlaced video?

Timing isn't an issue (except for your goofy 3) from the last post), since both the 23.976fps Force Film and 29.97fps non-Force Film .d2vs are the same length.

[ScottZ]

Because I can't edit at 24fps in this setup and I don't want to wind up with a messed up MPEG2 encoding when I go back out to DVD (by not having a good interlace source to begin with).

At this stage, I'd be more than happy to output as 24fps and telecine it from there which is what I was trying to do above.