Archive DV-Video on HDD

[VirtualEvil]

Hi there,

I'm looking for a file format to archive my DV-Videos on HDD. Of course DivX works great but I wanna be able to use my footage later on in Adobe Premiere Pro.
Premiere doesn't like DivX Videos very much so I need another way to compress my Video Files without making them useless for Premiere.

I hope you guys can help me, thanks a lot,


Christian

[bsr]

I think no matter what you convert it to you will have a quality loss.
If your Premiere PRO can read MPEG2(which is the DVD standard), then try converting to that format at a really high bitrate(8K-9K)to preserve as much quality as possible.
Of course your bitrate will have a direct impact on the size of your file.

[communist]

Keep it DV - it makes editing a lot easier. Any lossy conversion will result in quality loss and produce a stream that isnt that easy to edit anymore -> laggy / slow playback and seeking due to insertion if P/B fames, whereas DV is I(Key) Frames only.

[VirtualEvil]

Keeping it DV is of course a good way to keep the stream in a really good quality. But a normal 60min DV-Tape produces a ~12 GB file. Although my hdd is big, I cannot keep that many 12 GB files on it.
And copying it back on the tape (after cutting it) isn't an alternative neither, cause when I wanna use the video later, I have to copy it to my hdd (in real-time :( ) first.

So what do you think of the MPEG2 format?

@bsr: I recently tried MPEG2, as Premiere Pro happens to have a "Media Encoder" which converts the movie to a SVCD compatible MPEG2 with a bitrate of [Mbit/s]: 2.4200. The result is quite ok. But are there any known disadvantages hidden in the MPEG2 format??

Thanks a lot!

[communist]

Originally posted by VirtualEvil
But are there any known disadvantages hidden in the MPEG2 format??

Besides the quality loss it will as I said earlier produce a not-to-easy edit stream that isnt I-frames only. And transcoding to MPEG2 using I-Frames only might not be a good idea due to not big gain of space saving.

AFAIK there are editors who will edit MPEG1/2 not even at I-frames and reencode small parts to make this possible but I'm not too familiar with MPEG2 editing.

[VirtualEvil]

@communist:

Ok, so MPEG2 isn't the answer. So what, except keeping it DV, would you recommend? Do you keep all your footage DV? And if so: on DV-tapes or directly on your hdd??

[mustardman]

I keep my video on hard disk in DV format. Sure it chews a lot of space, but drives are now in the order of AU$1 per gigabyte. As you say, 1 hour takes about 12GB, so make that about 12 bucks.

That is about double what you pay for a cheap tape, and about the same as a good tape. So, moving your stuff back to tape is a waste of time, and (like you said) you loose the instant access. (But good for long term storage, and that nasty disk crash!!)

I use multiple disks in caddys, and swap them as needed. The caddys are a bit expensive though, but very convenient. If you don't mind fooling with IDE cables, and keeping the disks in static bags/boxes, then that is much cheaper.

It is really a decision for you. MPEG-2 is pretty good, and unless you plan to do a great deal of cascaded editing, it will save you a lot of space. It comes down to what value you place on [1]ease of editing, [2]how much editing, [3]instant access, [4]how much cash you have, [5]what your tapes are worth to you

MM

[communist]

Originally posted by VirtualEvil
@communist:

Ok, so MPEG2 isn't the answer. So what, except keeping it DV, would you recommend? Do you keep all your footage DV? And if so: on DV-tapes or directly on your hdd??
Well I normally grab the whole (or only required scenes) to HDD, do the editing and send it back to tape - where it stays. I also do a full-res deinterlaced XviD encode for backup on CD with highest quality possible - but then again it is not meant to be edited again.

[smok3]

keep it dv,

editing is in the 1st place selecting good shots anyway, so if you choose stuff in about 1:3 ratio that will give you about 20 minutes of material for editing, and that 20 minutes can be dumped to dvd-r for backup. (at least thats what i do)

other than that:
offline editing:
1. transcode everything to lower-res lower-bitrate mjpeg, so 1 hours becomes 4.5 gigs, backup...
2. edit
3. if needed for quality resons load the original clips from dv tape again (only clips that are in the edit)
(p.s. with todays hd sizes this is pretty much a waste of time, but thats how nonlinear editing started.)

[bsr]

Originally posted by VirtualEvil @bsr: I recently tried MPEG2, as Premiere Pro happens to have a "Media Encoder" which converts the movie to a SVCD compatible MPEG2 with a bitrate of [Mbit/s]: 2.4200. The result is quite ok. But are there any known disadvantages hidden in the MPEG2 format??Thanks a lot!
If you go this route, do not use SVCD(480x480), use DVD MPEG2. It will keep the full resolution of your DV(720x480).
The disadvantage with the MPEG2 format is going to be editing(as you can tell is pretty much unanimous from the above posts). As said before, it all depends on what you plan on doing with these videos and how much you plan on editing them and how important they are to you.

Me personally, I keep all the original DV tapes as backup and don't store footage on the Hard drive. It's always good to have a backups of your DVDs.
When BlueRay or whatever other larger format becomes available and cheap in the future, maybe then I will transfer my DV tapes to optical media for long term backup storage. But for best quality, I want to keep that backup footage in DV format.

[VirtualEvil]

ok. :)
It seems as if keeping my footage DV is the only reasonable way to preserve an editable format although it takes quite a lot of hdd space.

it all depends on what you plan on doing with these videos and how much you plan on editing them and how important they are to you.
me personally, I can hardly decide which video is less important and which one is very important. So I think I want to keep all the stuff I recorded in a fully-editable format --> which would be (as a result of this thread) DV. I'll see how long my hdd will be able to handle the amount of videos.

I'd like to link one question with this thread, because I think it fits quite good:
- So now I know, I store my footage in DV files until my hdd collapses.
But what's the ideal format to convert my final projects to? They're already cut and equipped with effects but still DV. ATM I compress them either with DivX or convert them to MPEG2

Anybody good a recommendation for me?? Thanks a lot, for all your kind answers!!
:thanks:

[bb]

Nowadays I create DVDs from all my home videos. It's a widespread, standardised format, plays everywhere.

I used to convert to DivX before I got my first DVD burner. Not a bad format either, if you need to store on CD media, or if you want to send small clips via e-mail.

bb

[bsr]

Originally posted by bb
Nowadays I create DVDs from all my home videos. It's a widespread, standardised format, plays everywhere.
I agree.

[gavo]

You can if you wish encode to mpeg 2 and make a mjpeg of your projects but you would have to bait and switch and keep in mind mpeg 2 is still lossy. There huffy loseless but that can be ever bigger then dv stream. Conconclusion Keep your dv stream, harddrives are cheap.

[bb]

gavo, please read your private messages.

bb

[RathO]

How safe is a hd that you only use to store files from time to time? I only plug mine when i need to copy a bunch of files. But does it last? Do you have to re-copy the files every 2-3 years? :confused:

I was thinking about copying to a dvd and hd, but i might only on hd.

Regards

[mustardman]

I always keep my original video-tapes.
For all captured material I burn as DV files to DVD-R. 20 mins per disc.
I also keep selected material on (a removable) HD for easy access.

I then have a path to step back along in case one step fails. This process is a good trade off between expense and convenience (it's not really expensive anyway!)

MM

[Valky]

This topic suited my question so well, that I decided not to open another thread for it.

1. If I transfer my footage from camcorder to HDD using firewire, does the footage still remain in my camera or does it work like cut'n paste?

2. Does my harddrive need some special properties to these kind of transfers (like speed) or is my old 80 GT IDE still useful for this kind of action?

[mustardman]

@Valky

1. If the camcorder is tape based (eg: miniDV) then the operation is a copy. If you so desire a blank tape, you have to erase it afterwords (but not recommended - tapes are cheap!) I don't know what happens with disk or memory based camcorders.

2. 80GB is fairly recent (2 years or less?) so the drive should be fine. It needs to cope with ~5MB/sec sustained. Most dives can do about 8, many over 20.

MM