InstantCopy Woes

[TheSeeker]

Ok so Im just starting to get into the dvd backup to dvd-r scene. I did my homework and Im far from a newbie in video encoding/editing scene. I really am not impressed with the ease of use or the amount of programs needed to do the cce method. I personally think that for the price you pay (1.50 dollar per dvd) the slight drop in quality using transcoders is worth it. I am impressed by InstantCopies quality over DVDCopy 2 or any of the others, but i have had some issues. Inconsistant file size seems to be common, but what pisses me off is that if i get rid of any of the extra video titles (say the previews or extras footage or the various logos of production companies) it seems that the the resulting dvd is pretty hit and miss as far as playability. For example i just did a movie and got rid of everything except the main movie title and the ac3 english soundtrack. i said include menus, and automatically adjust video quality. I did the High quality reduction. and unchecked include dvd content. Now when I mount the resulting image on my comp i see the warning come up like its working .. then it doesnt go any further. i hit next chapter i try and fast forward but nothing works. Something sort of similar happened to My copy of mulholland drive. i burned it and it will play fine and fast forward. .but if you try and skip chapters it will go the the Special features menu page... totally messed up. Does anyone have sort of a tried and true method/settings to get rid of some of the extras and still have menus and functionality of the dvd? Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Please dont tell me to use the CCE method. I may do that and i realize it provides for a bit better quality but im not asking about that.

Oh and another thing... which is essentially what Im trying to figure out. what is the best way (With instantcopy) to get just the movie and menu (for the scene select mostly) and get it to be reliable. what are the best settings to achieve this?

[writersblock29]

You can give Nero Recode 2 a try. Nero posts full-featured trials on their website (Recode's found in package number 2), so it won't cost you anything for trying it out. While some may argue that the overall quality isn't up to par with InstantCopy, I for one am strongly inclined to disagree; in most cases, telling a difference between an InstantCopy project and a Recode project involves a lot of squinting at the screen and TRYING to find stuff to nitpick. But alas, such is the nature of opinions!

The reason I bring up Recode2
It doesn't actually remove program chains for features you disable. Instead, it replaces the streams with a single still image which (professionaly, in my opinion) inform the viewer that the video has been removed. Since the program chains remain intact -- while still giving you extra space for encoding the things you plan to keep -- DVD navigation remains faithful to the original.

Not interested in having the time limit of a demo? I'd then recommend the free DVD Shrink (availible on Doom9's "downloads" section) which offers many of the same features that Recode has* with one exception: Instead of replacing removed titles with a SINGLE still image, it incorportes making a SERIES of still images which still serve to increase the space availible for things you wish to keep. DVD Shrink offers on-board decrypting, and ISO creation capibilities -- along with a few burning options. Of course, 'Shrink can be used to simply create files on your hard drive which you can burn using the software of your choice.

*DVD Shrink is also the author behind Nero's Recode 2.

In both cases, there is the option to use a more complete analysis of the original footage to give better quality to your project (albet, at the cost of time -- but still faster than most CCE methods by a wide margin, once you consider that no reauthoring is required on your part and the entire process is self-contained). Target sizing is normally spot-on to what you set it for, and both can be tweaked manually to give you JJJUUUSSTT a little more space. (I have both 'Shrink and Recode set to 4472MB, which always yields 4.36 Gigs in every project I've made with them.) Once again, the navigational structure of your DVD remains intact, making playback issues extremely rare if not non-existant.

Got a ReWritable? If so, then all testing them will cost you is time! I think you'll be pleased in the end! :cool:

--Cheers!

[TheSeeker]

Thanks for the informed well structured reply. I had been hearing quite a bit about Shrinks re author mode.. Can that be used to strip out the extras only then i can plug the resulting files into InstantCopy? I think that should work just based on what i have read. Also, I have seen some stuff on DVDRemake and it seems like exactly what I need. Is there anything like DVDRemake that allows you to remove menu options that you have gotten rid of? Im really liking InstantCopy's quality so i really would like to stick with IC but i need a better way to handle menus and extras. just so the menu's and overall the dvd's work more reliably?


Would IFOEdit do everything I wanted? (Get rid of and video titles that arent the main movie as well as any reference to them in the ifo files so it doesnt mess up the dvd, as well as removing any unwanted extras and subtitles and stuff like that?) Damn it seems like to do any of this and have a reliable dvd you have to totaly reauthor it. IS this the case?

[writersblock29]

Well... depending on just how much work you're willing to do with a project...

DVD Shrink with InstantCopy

Easy enough, really:
Open your original files with DVD Shrink, and select "no compression" for everything you wish to keep. You can run a still images compression on the stuff you don't want. Process, ignoring the warnings that'll pop up when DVD Shrink detects that your project is still too big to fit on a DVD-/+R. Then you can feed the DVD Shrink project into InstantCopy, and Bob's your uncle!

(As a side note, you still may find 'Shrink's output quality acceptable enough if you DID allow Shrink to process everything.)

The Reauthor mode of DVD Shrink is really only for creating "movie only" projects -- devoid of menus. Which is beautiful for those who get irritated by having to sit through lengthy animated menus! Kids' movies benifit for this, too; you know the attention span of kids! Makes a DVD kind of like a VHS that you don't have to rewind, but with chapter points.

IFOedit
You absolutely can remove titles with IFOedit. Not to mention remove FBI warnings, first-run trailers, ect. IFOedit's not for everyone, though; there's a helluva learning curve to it! Extremely powerful, but a bit complex. If you'd like to learn more about IFOedit's capabilities, I'd first point you in the direction of Doom9's IFOedit guides, as well as the forum thread. I really can't comment on DVD Remake -- since I've never used it -- but it's my understanding that you can do many of the things you're looking for with that, too (removing menu buttons, ect). I believe there's a demo for that as well... but don't qoute me on that!

(In fact, this is where I call for "help" from DVD Remake users! Fill us in, guys!)

<Damn it seems like to do any of this and have a reliable dvd you have to totaly reauthor it. IS this the case?>
You sometimes have to wonder. :rolleyes: Actually, we're getting more and more choices as to what tool to use for a specific job these days. But each tool seems to have a limitation that yet ANOTHER tool makes up for -- at the expense of not doing something ELSE either well, or at all. With a new learning curve with each new item of software you try! It's getting better, though.

[TheSeeker]

Yea IFOEdit seems like the way to go.. or DVDShrink which may be the better way to go. I was kinda wondering something. Could I run my dvd through IC and remove all the stuff i didnt want.. then with the resulting files (minus the unwanted titles) plug them into IFOEdit then will IFOEdit analyze the IFO and make the changes that are needed automatically? So in other words if it notices that the IFO references a previews video title and notices that it really isnt there in the VOB's then can it remove that reference from the IFO? Im sure this wont work but i guess its just wishful thinking. By the way thanks for the help... I really want to get a reliable, easy, and fairly quick way of backing up my dvd's and im almost there. thanks again.

[Dimad]

Originally posted by writersblock29
<Damn it seems like to do any of this and have a reliable dvd you have to totaly reauthor it. IS this the case?>

No, absolutely not.

[writersblock29]

@Dimad

Actually, I was qouting TheSeeker's post when I used that.

I used the link in your signature... looks interesting! I'm going to play with the demo and see what she can do.

@TheSeeker

You most definately can use IFOedit to fix navigational problems caused by removing titles. Unfortunately, it may not be as easy as clicking "Get VTS Sectors" and calling it good. I'm really not sure how InstantCopy goes about removing unwanted titlesets, or even how it processes such things as multiangle disks when stripping stuff out of them (I know that InstantCopy meerly copies the structure of a disk that you leave UNCHANGED... but as to what happens when you remove stuff? I'm clueless! That's also an admission that I'm not sure how easy it will be to use IFOedit to fix whatever InstantCopy does wrong).

So what I'd do, if it were me, would be to use IFOedit FIRST. Create the project you want, and then feed those files into InstantCopy. Once they're in InstantCopy, don't change 'em: Just do a 1:1 off of the IFOedit project, and you should be good.

...Checking out the website that Dimad has linked, perhaps DVD Remake is something worth checking out. It almost sounds like IFOedit -- but with a more user-friendly interface. I know that I'm planning on dorking with the demo tonight and see how she handles.

[TheSeeker]

Yea I am definately taking a look at DVDRemake. It is pretty much exactly what I need. DvdRemake along with InstantCopy is pretty much all I need. Remake seems like it rocks, you can hide menu buttons, cut out warnings and all the uneeded video titles all without re authoring. Perfect. Now I just need a dvd to test it on.. mwuahahahah.

[writersblock29]

@TheSeeker

Did you get a chance to mess with DVDRemake? I found the demo was cool, but I've got some PayPal BS to straighten out before I can pick up a full version. Just currious to see if you've bought it yet, and how it worked for you.

--Cheers!

[TheSeeker]

havent gotten around to buying it yet.. but will most likely mess with it this weekend.

[MysticE]

I have a few backups made with IC8 where I had deleted various things (opening logos, warnings, trailers etc.) They always played nicely in my Sampo 612n with the menu intact. Unfortunately with my new JVC all hell broke loose. The Movie Only backups work fine though.

[TheSeeker]

@Mystice

You should take a look at DVDRemake.. It will get rid of any references to those titles you remove from the ifo so they wont mess up your dvd. so you can keep only the stuff you want.. keep the menus and still have a fully functional dvd. pretty cool stuff...

[MysticE]

Will give it a shot. Thanks

[MackemX]

Originally posted by MysticE
I have a few backups made with IC8 where I had deleted various things (opening logos, warnings, trailers etc.) They always played nicely in my Sampo 612n with the menu intact. Unfortunately with my new JVC all hell broke loose. The Movie Only backups work fine though.

IC had a habit of completely removing the cells and this made playback on a fussy player impossible as you found out once you got a new player :(

the sad fact is that even though Pinnacle were told this in version 7 they still kept it in version 8 and are yet to fix it :(

they had quite a tool if they had kept at it but it went to waste I feel :p

[TheSeeker]

No big deal really... IC is still the best quality Transcoder out there with DVD Shrink close behind. All you have to do is run your movies through DVDRemake first to take all that stuff out then transcode the resulting video_ts files with IC8. Works like a charm.

[MackemX]

how about the sizing, do you get good results?

I used to really like IC but got sick of calculating the sizes even if I could get decent sizing results sometimes. It all depended on the aspect ratio in most cases. In the end I chose the easiest option and just stopped making backups instead :)

[TheSeeker]

so far undersized .pdi files have been a minor issue for me. I know for some it is happening alot but I have only seen like one or two times where the output was under 4 gb.. i just re ran IC8 and it was fine.. Not sure what causes it but it hasnt really been hindering my backups at all. And like I said the quality is great.

[MackemX]

you will find that the movies that undersize more have an aspect ratio of 2.35:1 or similar. IC has trouble with black bars contained within the image (a bit outdated and full of rubbish but it tells you a little HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/sizing.htm))

I even wrote guides to get better sizes quicker HERE (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/2big.htm). I didn't think that many people used IC any more :)

best thing is you are happy with the quality just as I was when I used it :D

[TheSeeker]

Hmm that is interesting stuff.. never thought of fixing oversizing that way. Yea for the most part I am happy with IC... What do you use as a transcoder? Just so I know what I should try if I find a movie that is stubborn in IC. Or it sounds like if I get a movie that is consistantly undersized I can just compensate and over size it. That works just fine right? lets say it is undersized by 600 mb.. would i then set the target size to like 4.9 gb then and all will be good.. does it work like that for the most part?

[MackemX]

I dont use anything these days as I'm not making backups at the minute

Most users would oversize anything from 4.5 to 4.9 depending on the content of the DVD. I would go a little further and use the spradsheet and input the sizes and aspect ratios and a risk factor and it would then tell me what to set each title to so that it compensated for the undersizing. I guess I was a little fussy but then I could get very good sizing results :)

a program called InstantCopy Hidden Settings Editor then made the guess work a little easier. Do you have it?

check out mrbass's guide on Instantcopy as a link is there also
http://www.mrbass.org/instantcopy/

with the tools you have I have a suggestion for you if you dont mind processing a few times. Usertime will be minimal :)

if you dont process the DVD direct using DRM then rip the DVD using DVDShrink removing nothing else but the audio/subs. Keep the original audio/subs streams by unticking logical remapping. Strip video and whatever using DVDRemake. Run this through IC but only reduce the movie title to your acceptable level of quality and leave the rest at 100% and dont remove audio/subs. Mount the IC image and process again with DVDShrink this time reducing menu's and extra's but leave movie at no compression

I suggest that you use DVDShrink on menu/extras as IC sometimes has major sizing issues with them. If you look at that sizing link again from the last post, down the bottom there are some issues that show how IC cannot read the sizes properly in the DVD. It can waste something up to 8% of the DVD due to it not shrinking the menu/extras like you specified (can't find my links but it does :)). This oversizing on menu/extras is what sometimes hides the undersizing on the main movie when doing 1:1 backups :)

using the hybrid version means you will get around 4.37GB with a high quality IC quality movie and very decent quality menu & extras :)

sounds like a lot but its just processing time not user time :)

[TheSeeker]

So essentially what you are saying is rip the dvd, remove stuff I dont want with DVDRemake run it through IC8 with video at acceptable levels but keep everything else intact. THen run the resulting files through dvd shrink to process the extras and stuff?? Is that about right? This would be a great method that I will probably use on movies that I want to keep everything. But usually for the most part I get rid of everything except the movie and the english DD soundtrack (Except in anime i keep both jap and eng lang, and subs). The only reason I keep the Menus really is so i have the scene select. Otherwise I would always do movies only. The extras usually arent cool enough for me to sacrifice video quality for.

[MackemX]

yeah thats about it for 1:1 backups with the tools you have :)

I only suggest using DVDShrink first to remove audio/subs straight away when ripping to save processng 100mb's again with DRM & IC then DVDShrink :)


I wish DVDDecrypter had this feature (or does it?) as I still have 3.1.7.0 and I know a new version just came out

[TheSeeker]

yea... but i could just as easily remove them with IC8. Cause DVDRemake really doesnt take long no matter if i remove the audio first or not. You cant remove audio streams in decrypter without enabling stream processing which totally removes the menus...

[MackemX]

I was never too keen on audio removal with IC either as again it had certain issues (LINK (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/ics.htm)) but that was with 1:1 backups. That may be an old issue as I'm sure Pinnacle eventually sorted out the audio/subs remapping etc

but hey thats just me being fussy and as long as your happy then who cares ;)

it would be nice to see DVDDecrypter have audio/subs removal option :)

[TheSeeker]

yea that would be nice... dvd decrypter is so awesome already though... that IC looks a little different than mine.. Is that IC8 or 7?

[MackemX]

I think it's 7 with the very boring standard Windows theme :(. I know Pinnacle did address some of my issues with a little prodding but they didn't fix them all and then they just disappeared :)

I did have some rather funny IC's themes though

The Matrix(link) (http://www.deano.dsl.pipex.com/backup/Pics/matrix.htm) and the Kiddie (pictured below)

http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/images/guides/p652042/ICtoon.jpg

[TheSeeker]

What do you mean dissapeared? are they not still working on upgrading IC?? Is pinnacle no longer making it?

[MackemX]

I honestly dont know and don't really care now. Maybe they are but the way they just left me hanging all of a sudden as an active betatester with not a peep of notice peed me off a little as I was looking forward to certain things :(

this is just my experience but this doesn't mean they ain't still developing it

your best bet is to visit the Pinnacle forums (http://webboard.pinnaclesys.com/read_threads.asp?WebboardID=1&ForumID=877&lng=1&SectionID=170) and see what the latest buzz is :)

[kraven morehead]

Well,
I too used to swear by instant copy, but then once i actually started watching my backups, i was very suprised to find they all crapped out at the end. The filesizes were all off and I had wasted my time. I opted for the dvdshrink route but had the same issues as well even with different media that comes highly reccomended, beall,ritek etc. I now realize that I might have a picky player, but I now use CloneDVD2 it has been a godsend. every movie has come out fine, and the quality is just as good as IC8. Plus it always keeps my backups the same output size every time, no matter what i take out.
It has every feature that IC8 has or dvd-shrink for the most part and when used in conjunction with Anydvd (an on the fly decoder) even a movie on a p4 1.7 cpu a whole movie has never taken longer then 45min from start to finish.

Give it a whirl if you want.

[Lagoon]

IC8 not being size accurate is not an absolute bad thing.

It usually makes DVDs in the 4.2-4.3GB range, yes you lose 100MB but this way you won't completely fill the dvd-r, which is risky if you don't use high quality media.

On rare cases it gave me DVDs under 4GB, that's because it applies a MINIMUM compression and it can't compress less apparently - the quality is still excellent (did this test after getting a 3.25GB iso, I asked IC8 to give a 6GB iso, but it still output 3.25GB)

[TheSeeker]

i agree.. its a little flaky and has some definate flaws and bugs... but you cant beat its quality.. none of the other transcoders comes close.. well maybe Shrink, but that still doesnt touch it.

[ddlooping]

Originally posted by TheSeeker
i agree.. its a little flaky and has some definate flaws and bugs... but you cant beat its quality.. none of the other transcoders comes close.. well maybe Shrink, but that still doesnt touch it.
If you are on broadband, or if you have the time, there is a guessing game you might want to play. ;)

http://www.dvdshrink.info/temp/beta/compilations.html

[TheSeeker]

can i post the answers here if you mind?

[ddlooping]

Sure, no problem. :)

[TheSeeker]

Comp 1:

2_1 = IC8
3_1 = DVDShrink
4_1 = DVD2ONE

Comp 2:

2_1 = DVDShrink
3_1 = IC8
4_1 = DVD2ONE

Comp 3:

2_1 = IC8
3_1 = DVDShrink
4_1 = DVD2ONE

So how did I do??

[ddlooping]

So as not to spoil the game for others I'll pm you the answers. :)
Please keep them confidential. :D

Your score: 5/9.

[TheSeeker]

I didnt do too bad.. you can really tell the DVD2one copies... heh.. i guess dvdshrink is a bit better than i thought.. my hats off to the creator.

[ddlooping]

Originally posted by TheSeeker
i guess dvdshrink is a bit better than i thought..
I'm glad to gear it. :)

[Fishman0919]

Comp 1

2-1 DVD Shrink v3.2b3
3-1 IC8
4-1 DVD2One v1.40

Comp 2

2-1 IC8
3-1 DVD Shrink v3.2b3
4-1 DVD2One v1.40

Comp 3

2-1 DVD Shrink v3.2b3
3-1 IC8
4-1 DVD2One v1.40

I tried not to look at the other post so not to help me. I know that IC8 is really good at the non moving stuff at low compression so I tried to focus on that (it was real hard) but I think I did OK.

[ddlooping]

pm is on its way. ;)

[Fishman0919]

WOW, very nice work... I'm looking forward to trying the new DVD Shrink out.... Hats off guys.. again very nice work.

[Ton80]

Comp 1:
2_1 = DVDShrink
3_1 = IC8
4_1 = DVD2ONE

Comp 2:
2_1 = DVDShrink
3_1 = IC8
4_1 = DVD2ONE

Comp 3:
2_1 = DVDShrink
3_1 = IC8
4_1 = DVD2ONE

In all cases I felt the 4th clip was substantialy worse then the others with major amounts of blocking and blurring.

In the first compilation the 2nd and 3rd clip were very close. The smoke looked better in clip 2, but only slightly and some other parts of the scene looked worse than clip 3.

In the second compilation the third clip was the best overall, but not much better then clip2.
In the 3rd compilation the 3rd clip was substantially better then the others with none of the pumping in clip 2 or blocking in clip 4.

Except in the third compilation the qualiaty difference between clip 2&3 was slight with 3 winning overall in my opinion.
I am an IC7 user, so if clip3 is DVDShrink, then i will need to give it a try. Even if it is not I might start using it for some movies just for the speed (my backups of my kids DVD's for example)

[Lagoon]

"Even if it is not I might start using it for some movies just for the speed (my backups of my kids DVD's for example)"

Not really since DVDShrink will all quality options is just as slow as IC8.

[Ton80]

I did not realize that shrink slowed down that much with highest quality. So if the quality is not as good and it is just as slow then why use it? Dont say because it is free, IC 7 was free after rebate way back when i got it too and I dont think IC8 is that expensive. If i felt there was a reason I would be glad to pay for the upgrade to IC8, but it doesnt seem to add anything real over IC7 or I am missing something?

[MysticE]

I would be glad to pay for the upgrade to IC8, but it doesnt seem to add anything real over IC7 or I am missing something?
Yes, IC8 is better, lot's of little bug fixes and it's a tad better at hitting the target disc size plus a little bit faster than IC7. And I don't understand the 'quality options' in Shrink, it usually takes half the time that IC8 does even with deep analysis.

[ddlooping]

MysticE, the quality options will be explained in details when v3.2 final is released.
All I can say is that they improve DVD Shrink output quality at fairly high levels of compression.
This requires more processing to be done, hence the increase in the time necessary to complete a backup (at these levels of compression).

Also, I have to apologize for having posted this "Guessing" game and all the information pertaining to DVD Shrink v3.2.
With hindsight it does look like an error in judgement on my part.

[Ton80]

Also, I have to apologize for having posted this "Guessing" game and all the information pertaining to DVD Shrink v3.2.
With hindsight it does look like an error in judgement on my part.

I don't know, it seemed to follow the basic thread, but I should have posted my guess in the other forum. I am glad you posted it, otherwise I would not have realized how much Shrink's quality has improved.
I look forward to trying 3.2