Is this legal to do?

[DK64_MASTER]

This issue is concerning the legality of backup movies.

I own quite a few VHS tapes, and I have recently bought a capture card. Since I paid for all of the commercial VHS tapes, can I burn multiple movies to a DVD-r at VHS resolution, and chuck away the video tapes? (They are taking up too much room). Technically, I am making completely legal backups which are on a different medium.

Macrovision isn't a problem, so please don't mention that in a response. Thanks for everyone's insight.

[jggimi]

It depends entirely upon the regulations about intellectual property rights in your country. Note that your country may treat digital information differently than analog, and may treat imported content differently than domestic content.

That stated, Doom9's website and forum follow an ethical standard to protect intellectual property known as "Fair Use." Your country's regulatory environment may be stricter or looser than that standard.

See www.doom9.org/disclaimer.htm under the section "Piracy and Copyright" for the Fair Use standard used here.

[DK64_MASTER]

Yeah, I was stupid to forget my location. I'm from USA like you (unless you are from Canada). I sometimes can't understand the "fair use" stuff, and this situation is kind of unique because I'm making my "Backup" my primary copy.

[jggimi]

I am not an attorney, so this does not constitute legal advice. But I did find some info US law regarding video taping by Googling. My personal interpretation is that this has to do with home recordings of broadcasts, not purchased video tapes:The Sony/Betamax decision was decided on January 17, 1984 by the supreme court. It states: "Sale of home videotape recorded held not to constitute contributory infringement of television program copyrights. It was held that the sale of home video tape recorders to the general public did not constitute contributory infringement of copyrights on television programs since there was a significant likelihood that substantial numbers of copyright holders who license their works for broadcast on free [or cable] television would not object to having their broadcasts time-shifted by private viewers and the plaintiff copyright holders did not demonstrate time-shifting would cause any likelihood of non-minimal harm to the potential market for, or the value of, copyrighted works." (Guide to American Law, volume 3, 1983 p 46-7) I interpret this to mean that non-profit home use is legal. But again, I am not an I.P. attorney:"Any person who infringes a copyright willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain shall be punished as proven in section 2319 of title 18." (U.S. Code, TITLE 17, article 506.) Regarding Fair Use, I found this reference on the web. But one Supreme Court Justice's opinion does not have the force of law, it requires a case to be brought forward, and then a majority opinion:An article in Newsweek (January 30, 1984 p57-8) explains it: Justice Paul Stevens wrote that home taping falls within the traditional "Fair Use" Exception of copyright restrictions.

Studies, he said, demonstrated that most taping was done for "Time-Shifting" recording a program for viewing at a more convenient time. Such taping, he argued, has "no demonstrable effect upon the value of copyrighted work."

However, he drew the line at selling home made tapes. "If the Betamax were used to make copies for a commercial or profit making purpose," declared Stevens, "Such use would be presumptively unfair". This states that time-shifting is "Fair Use" only if the tapes are for personal use and not to make a profit. (http://www.innermind.com/myguides/misc/faqtrade.htm#2)

[fccHandler]

Originally posted by DK64_MASTER
can I burn multiple movies to a DVD-r at VHS resolution, and chuck away the video tapes?
I wouldn't advise chucking the originals; in my opinion the lifespan of DVD+/-R media is somewhat questionable. Quality tape (even VHS) has a proven durability, and can last for decades with proper care.

[CraigBjorn]

Personally I'd say you're in the go. The main point of these laws is to make sure you're not making money off somebody elses work. Fair Use (like many law related terms) is sketchy. Now these are me own opinions and do not necessariy refelct this sites views. But, you've already bought the tapes. Copy them as long as it's not for someone else, or specifically for profit.
I make films and do some sound recording and the only thing that bothers me is when people make copies for someone else for free, or (what REALLY makes me made) is when people make copies and then sell them. Don't do either of those, and you should be fine.

[Doom9]

I'd not throw away the originals.. they are your proof that you do indeed have a valid license to do what you want to do. So if you keep the tapes, there are no legal barriers in most countries (many even have levies on tapes and now also DVD-Rs which cover such a use case).

[niamh]

I had a bit of a look and this is the only thing i could find of any interest:
"The next thing to address is the Supreme Court Ruling on the LEGAL copies of Video Tapes in a persons home. A person can legally copy a video tape for his own personal private use. Video tape happens to be in the same class of magnetic media that Software resides."
(!)
so i guess all the copyright laws on software apply to video tapes...

"Therefore, it is illegal to duplicate or distribute software or its documentation without the permission of the copyright owner.If you have purchased your copy, however, you may make a backup for you own use in case the original is destroyed or fails to work."

Well the question is does it apply to "willingly destroyed?" :)

On a side note for canadians, i found this while surfing:
it's a bit scary :

"• You may not make a copy of a video you own to accommodate a different format.

In other words, if you purchased a video tape in Europe which is in PAL format and you want to view it here in Canada, where we use NTSC format, you would have to get the copyright holder's permission to copy it down onto a tape that would play here in Canada. Or, if you had a Beta tape and wanted to play it on a VHS recorder, you would have to do the same. "

[theReal]

I'd not throw away the originals.. they are your proof that you do indeed have a valid license to do what you want to do. That was my first thought, too. But then it occured to me that it makes the whole "backup" thing obsolete: What if I make a backup copy of a music CD, then the original gets lost/stolen at a party (I usually don't attend parties where people will steal my stuff, but it is a realistic scenario). Then I'd have to throw away the backup also because the proof for the original CD is gone

conclusion --> keep your receipts for all DVDs/CDs that you own if you want to backup them! :)

[DK64_MASTER]

conclusion --> keep your receipts for all DVDs/CDs that you own if you want to backup them!

That's the response I wanted. The whole point was to make some space saving room, and be able to watch multiple movies on 1 DVD-R.

Keeping the originals seems redundant, so the receipts sound like a better deal. Perhaps I should include the receipt with the dvd (In the cover). Thanks for all your opinions. It seems right because I paid for the movie, so I should be able to do anything I want with it, as long as it stays in my possession (I'm the legal owner). In a more crude sense, I could shoot a bullet through my TV without getting sued, because I own it (unless I don't have a gun licensce).

Thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and make the backups!:devil: :D

[Dox]

maybe you might want to make a backup of the disc images on TAPE once all done and captured so you can resore them and write out another dvd in case the others get destroyed. by tape I mean thae kind for PC to store data and NOT vhs. Just a good safety measure and they don't take up much space.

BTW If it wasn't legal to make copyies of personal OWNED vhs tapes would we still make copyies... hell ya! we bought then and we WILL do what ever we want with them as long as it's for personal use.

Keep in mind these laws are for the mass production to protect the copy right owners. So do what you want with them, convert to pal to ntsc or the other way around, it's for personal use don't worry the FBI won't break down your down for playing with the groovy technology.

[Dimmer]

Originally posted by DK64_MASTER
Macrovision isn't a problem, so please don't mention that in a response. Sorry, couldn't help myself. I hope that meant that the tapes don't have Macrovision, because circumventing any type of copy protection is illegal in the US.

[dragongodz]

What if I make a backup copy of a music CD, then the original gets lost/stolen at a party. Then I'd have to throw away the backup also because the proof for the original CD is gone

actually it could be argued yes you do have to. if you no longer have the originals then you could have sold them, given away, thrown away, whatever. the point would be you no longer have the right to a backup of it since you also have no proof of what has happened to the original.

keep your receipts for all DVDs/CDs that you own if you want to backup them!
which only proves you owned the original at one point as i said. :)

[DK64_MASTER]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DK64_MASTER
Macrovision isn't a problem, so please don't mention that in a response.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I hope that meant that the tapes don't have Macrovision, because circumventing any type of copy protection is illegal in the US.

I meant that these certain tapes don't have Macrovision. I didn't know that removing the flag was illegal, because I know people who do it all the times with DVDs? Could it be legal in UK?

And making a backup on tape sounds interseting, but I don't know where to get the hardware for it. They had tape drives back in the 80's, and a whole roll could only hold something ridiculous like 300kb. I'm dealing with gigabytes of space, but thanks for the idea.

[theReal]

And making a backup on tape sounds interseting, but I don't know where to get the hardware for it. They had tape drives back in the 80's, and a whole roll could only hold something ridiculous like 300kb. I'm dealing with gigabytes of space, but thanks for the idea.Never heard of tape streamers? Widely used for regular data backup on fileservers and such. Tapes the size of a DAT Tape hold like 40GB of data - but prices for the hardware and tapes are too high for personal use, usually.
You'd only get a streamer if you really need automated daily data backups.

*edit* I just got an update myself and saw there are streamers available with 140GB per tape, like this one (http://www.tandberg.com/sw1049.asp). Website says "extremely affordable solution" which means 1500EUR for the device and about 30EUR per tape...

*2nd edit* they even have 600GB per tape devices (http://www.tandberg.com/sw1066.asp), wow I don't believe it...

[Dimmer]

Originally posted by DK64_MASTER
I meant that these certain tapes don't have Macrovision. I didn't know that removing the flag was illegal, because I know people who do it all the times with DVDs? Could it be legal in UK? Yeah, in the States it's illegal as per DMCA. There was a widely discussed lawsuit recently, I believe it was the one against DVD X Copy company (321 Studios). The judge ruled out that while it's allowed to make a backup "perhaps, of inferior quality", it's illegal to break copy protection to do so. Not sure about the UK laws at the moment.

[DK64_MASTER]

Hmmm, luckily I have the "Remove Macrovision" checkbox in DVD Decrypter unchecked. I don't mind that I can't play my movie from S-Video out ports on my computer, I prefer my TV.

Those tape drives sound extremely interesting (I was always interested with magnetic storage), and it looks like it is Random access (hopefully). The seek times seem a bit slow for the big drives, but since it's mainly for backups, it looks promising. I don't know anyone who uses this, so I'll probably research it a lot more before buying. I'll make the backups, and if I can't find some of my receipts, I'll keep the original tapes. Thanks for the info!

[dragongodz]

I'll make the backups, and if I can't find some of my receipts, I'll keep the original tape.
as i said above though the reciepts alone are no proof that you didnt just sell them or given them away or such. so they are no proof that you have any right to have copies. infact throwing the tapes away could(and i only say could) negate your fair use right since you wont have what you are claiming under fair use.

[DK64_MASTER]

Hmmm. Doesn't sound too good. I guess I'll just keep the stuff on tape then...

[darkpepe]

Nobody is ever gonna know what you are doing @ home, so why do you bother?

[jggimi]

Darkpepe: This forum is scrupulous in its protection of intellectual property owners' rights. You are directed to click on the following links:http://www.doom9.org/disclaimer.htm
http://forum.doom9.org/announcement.php?s=&forumid=6
http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htmYou are not required to like our rules, but you agreed to abide by them while on this forum. I suggest you do so if you wish to continue membership here.

[daveidmx]

would it satisfy your proof of ownership requirements if you keep the "proof of purchase" from the VHS case, or possibly even the whole case? they could be broken down and stored quite compactly.

[Dox]

ya just keep the barcode or something and put them in a compact bag.

How old are these movies, sounds they are before macrovision came around so they got to be some oldies. Maybe you souldn't worry about it since the company probably doesn't even exist anymore nether the less have sold one of those tapes for the past 20 years.

ya I know copyright copyright, but the law is a guide line and is made to protect you AND them. Laws are not unbendable things that must be followed EXACTLY they are made to protect people. Heck make the copy and offer it to the company so they can preserve it. maybe they will give you some free movies for the time you put into it.

[DK64_MASTER]

Actually, some of the movies are old, and some are foreign films which lack basic protections (some even don't have CSS).

I doubt that the company would like my preserved copies (Menu's are very basic). I want to avoid any interaction between a company and copied media.

[Dox]

just enjoy and use for personal use, thats what all these programs and tools were made for.

[DK64_MASTER]

Will do!!! (with the originals intact for now).