KISS filter - where and how?

[earthlybeings]

I have stubled across favorable discussions involving KISS filter but don't know where to download, install and use this filter. I have searched the forum but could not find anything.

I would like to use this filter (if possible) with D2SRoBa and CCE for DVD to SVCD encodes.

please advise.

Thanks,

Kasauli

[Nick]

I don't know how much you know about KISS filtering, so I'll start from the beginning.

KISS is a nickname for a combination of two filters
Undot()
Deen()
which aims to make the source frames more compressible without discernible effect on picture quality.

To use them you need to download the plugins for Undot and Deen from
http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

Unzip the undot.dll and deen.dll to the plugins folder of your avisymth installation directory (nb NOT the one in the DVD2SVCD installation directory, you should have a separate entry in your Programs folder for Avisynth 2.5 with a plugins subfolder)

To use in DVD2SVCD, select "Edit avisynth script as part of video encoding" in the frameserver tab and add the two filters before the resize command.

However, as I understand it newer D2SRoBa releases, when used in SVCD mode and Number of CD's set to Auto, automatically apply this filter if it thinks doing so can save you a disc without exceeding your maximum allowable Q factor. Tou can set the threshold but the default is 8%.

To give an example, Let's say D2SRoBa calculated that to encode a movie within your Q factor limits it will need 3 CD's. If, however, at your max allowable Q factor, the oversize for 2 CD's is less than 8%, it will automatically add the filters to attempt to encode to 2CD's. The percentage oversize up to which it does this can be set by you in D2SRoBa.

I have never used this facility but that is my understanding of how it works. If I have misunderstood any part other users feel free to correct me.

Hope this helps
Nick

[jorel]

KISS? :p i don't knew that.i'm using that combination a long time and the parameters for my dvds or svcd(Kdvds and sKvcds) with D2SRoBa/D2S:

undot()
LanczosResize(.,.,.,.,.,.)
Deen()# good compression & slow, use for dvds(Kdvds)
AddBorders(.,.,.,.)

or

undot()
LanczosResize(.,.,.,.,.,.)
Deen("a3d",3,4,1,4)# great compression & very slow, use for svcds(sKvcds)or for 2 movies in one dvd(Kdvd)
AddBorders(.,.,.,.)

i take the original AC3 from D2S and author with the video in TmpgencDVDAuthor to build dvds and D2S do all the job for svcds(sKvcds)

but, who called undot + deen as KISS an why?

[ralphthedog]

KeepItSimpleStupid...........I think it might have been a DDogg/R6D2 concept(Americans love acronyms:rolleyes: ).I guess they were rallying against all the insanely complicated compression type avisynth scripts........that probably did nothing but cancel out their own contents and mess up the picture quality.At least this one was tested and really works, even when I use it.

@Jorel,I wonder if you might get better compression using Bilinear resize instead of Lanczos?

[earthlybeings]

Thanks Nick for a exhaustive and prompt reply. I will try to download and use them and will post back if I ran into any issues. I don't use D2SRoBa in "auto" mode but I specify the number of CDs almost all the time, that is why I have to manually use the filters through editing the Avisynth file.

Again thanks for the information. Thanks to others members as well who have participated in this discussion....it will certainly help.

Thanks,

Kasauli

[tylo]

Thanks for explaining the conditional filtering, Nick.

One of the new features in the next release of D2SRoBa is conditional filtering for DVD output (or when selecting a fixed number of CD's for SVCD). In this case, the filter will be triggered when Q goes over the 'Auto Q' value (now renamed to 'Threshold Q' value).

The setup can optionally configure the conditional filtering, by modifying the standard resizers (including FACAR). It then also installs the filter with Undot().Deen() and the undot.dll and deen.dll in your avisynth plugin folder if not present.

Note: Don't worry, although the avisynth.ini resizers adds an 'Import(...)' line, the filtering isn't triggered when only using D2S - the imported script is empty!

[earthlybeings]

Nick, I have selected the option "edit avisynth script as part of video encoding" but don't know how to add the filters. I assume that you mean that I should add a line avisynth script file which will invoke the two filters. Where does the "resize command" comes? Looking at the script file, it looks like the file line
says 0=ResizeTo..... So, I think the commands have to added on top of the avisynth script file before anything.

I am sorry but I am a newbie but I would appreciate if you could elaborate on this part.

Thanks,

Kasauli

[ralphthedog]

@earthlybeings, when you select "edit avisynth script as part of video encoding" D2S will actually stop before the video encoding bit and pop up a screen showing the avisynth script, all you have to do is add:

undot()
Deen()

above the resize line and click the go button.

[jorel]

Originally posted by ralphthedog

@Jorel,I wonder if you might get better compression using Bilinear resize instead of Lanczos?

right, bilinear give more compression (not so strong) but Bicubic or Lanczos give more sharpness (better details for my taste)!
:)

[jorel]

Originally posted by ralphthedog
@earthlybeings, when you select "edit avisynth script as part of video encoding" D2S will actually stop before the video encoding bit and pop up a screen showing the avisynth script, all you have to do is add:

undot()
Deen()

above the resize line and click the go button.

oh yes but click "save" after the changes, then "ok"!
;)

[DDogg]

You don't have to click save, but it is a good idea to do it so you can test. When you click save, the avisynth script is updated so you can go to your work dir and test play it in WMP to make sure you have not fouled something up when editing. After you verify it plays ok, then go back and press OK and the program will continue.

The script is also updated when you click OK, but the program continues automatically whether the script is good, or not. If you have messed up the script all kinds of irritating things will start happening and you may not know it for a while.

Anyway, now that tylo has released the updated D2SRoBa today, this stuff will all be a lot easier as it installs the filters and conditional script for you (optionally).

[jorel]

clear in all details as always DDogg! :) thanks to post about the updated D2SRoBa, i don't knew that...thank you too tylo ! ;)

[r6d2]

Originally posted by earthlybeings
Nick, I have selected the option "edit avisynth script as part of video encoding" but don't know how to add the filters.For some additional KISS background look at this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=462419&highlight=magic#post462419) post. Also, if you use FACAR, a simple way to use KISS is to edit the default Preresize.avs script and uncomment the filters.

[tylo]

@r6d2: I want to ask you if you aprove of how D2SRoBa 3.60 setup may modify the FACAR script?

It is done optionally by keeping the 'Configure Conditional Filters' checked during setup. It replaces the "# Import(!PreResize.avs)" line with "Import(!RoBaConditonal.avs)". Note that is does not in any case touch it if you already have uncommented this line, so it won't mess up any configuration you may have done manually.

My intention was to simplify the access for the average user to utilize "Condtional KISS filters", without having to create duplicates of all the already existing avisynth setups. For FACAR, making a duplicate is really no option.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by tylo
@r6d2: I want to ask you if you aprove of how D2SRoBa 3.60 setup may modify the FACAR script?Of course, my friend. I don't see how possibly this would be a problem for anyone.

Only that, for now, make sure the RobaConditional line goes before the call to the resizing script (FACAR itself). FACAR behaves weirdly in debug mode when filters are in postresize script due to colorspace problems I've been too lazy to fix. ;)

[earthlybeings]

Originally posted by ralphthedog
@earthlybeings, when you select "edit avisynth script as part of video encoding" D2S will actually stop before the video encoding bit and pop up a screen showing the avisynth script, all you have to do is add:

undot()
Deen()

above the resize line and click the go button.


Thanks ralphthedog. I now understand how to invoke the filters. I know the filters increase your processing time but in this case, it almost doubled the time and I am not sure if I want to do that. I think speed was an essential component (of course along with quality) that I was using D2SRoBa with CCE for.

Another inconvenience is that instead of a "set it and forget it" working of D2SRoBa, you actually have to wait (a lot) and add filters manually. I am sure this can be bypassed and would appreciate if somebody can shed some light on automating this thing.

I am hesistant to use the new version 3.6 of D2SRoBa because the filters will automatically kick on the value of the threshold, thereby increasing the processing time significantly. I think it should be an option in D2SRoBa which you can check and uncheck depending on your needs.

Again, thanks to all who have clarified the KISS filter and its working. I am sure it will helpful to others like me.

Kasauli.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by earthlybeings
it almost doubled the time and I am not sure if I want to do that.This is very likely. Time doubles on my system too when adding KISS. But remember D2Sroba is saving you a lot of time already, converting a 3 or 4 pass into only one.

KISS filtering is an adjustment of speed and size. You can balance both for whatever your needs are. You only encode once, but watch it many times.
I think it should be an option in D2SRoBa which you can check and uncheck depending on your needs.Well, it should be like this already. Set the threshold to 0 and see if that helps.

[tylo]

Of course, my friend. I don't see how possibly this would be a problem for anyoneThanks, pal. I didn't think it would. The RobaConditional line will always go before the call to the resizing script, because (as mentioned) it replaces the PreResize call (which by definition should be before it).
"I think it should be an option in D2SRoBa which you can check and uncheck depending on your needs."

Well, it should be like this already. Set the threshold to 0 and see if that helps.Better to uncheck the new option 'Use cond. filter if configured' if you don't want conditional filtering at all.

Remember, in D2SRoBa v3.60, there are now two ways of doing conditional filtering: (1) explained by Nick in the second post, and (2) by me in the sixth post of this thread.