ECL Tweaker 1.6 - utility to apply CCE filters to DVD Rebuilder projects

[quantum]

I made a small utility to modify rebuilder.ecl to activate the three preset filters in CCE

Get it HERE (http://connforum.com/ecltweaker.zip)

These are the presets (for CCE SP 2.66+ and CCE Basic):
- Natural Picture
- Animation
- Computer Graphics

Version History
===============
1.6 Added CCE 2.5 support.
1.5 Added slider to modify strength of filters.
1.4 Added ability to modify filter parameters for CCE SP 2.66+.
1.3 Combined options for CCE Basic 2.69 and 2.67.
1.2 Fixed support for CCE Basic 2.69.
1.1 Added support for CCE Basic.
1.0 Initial release.

Why use filters?
===============
The built-in CCE filters in general soften (or blur) the picture. Nobody wants to have blurry video, but when bitrate is low, compression artifacts (cubes) start appearing. Softer images compress better and many people prefer to have a softer image without compression artifacts. The 'natural picture' filter in CCE is not very strong and you may not notice it at all.

Every version of CCE I've tried including CCE Basic has the 'natural filter' preset activated by default for everything. Jdobbs went in the opposite direction and deactivated the filter for everything.

It's probably best not use any filters if you have over 3000 kbps. In that case you have enough bandwidth to reproduce the original without compression artifacts and retain sharpness. If you have 2500 to 3000, it's a tough call. Under 2500 and it's a good idea to use the filters.

My advice would be to activate the filters when you go under 2500.

You can confirm the filter is working two ways. First you should notice a speed decrease in CCE since the filters take additional CPU power. Second, you can abort an encode in CCE but leave CCE open, then open the title and click the quality button (CCE SP) or look at the 'quality setting' section (CCE Basic). You should see the appropriate filter is active.

What's next for this program?
=============================
1 - Allow filters to be applied to individual titles. This is important since right now the filter is applied to the whole project where you might want to soften only the extras.
2 - Other things...

[RickA]

I bought CCE Basic (ver 2.69.01.04) a few weeks ago and can get back to you later this weekend with the modified files. May need you to tell me how to get them to you when I am done. I take it that movie only via DVDShrink does not matter and that you only want the results in between the Prepare and Encode phases of DVD-RB.



@jdobbs
Super, major kudos to you (and all those who have helped) for the creation of DVD-RB. Your program came along at the perfect time when I was ready to graduate from the 'Entry Level One Clickers.' Donation on the way. :)

[Joergen]

Great! Another first from quantum.

I'll surely test the animation filter with my next anim project.

[ShadowKnight]

Right on! I was wondering how to do this :) I'll post back if any bugs pop up. Thanks for making this.

[wmansir]

I swear I replied to this earlier today, but I must have forgotten to submit it. Anyway..


Good work, It works for me without error. I'll add it to the Overview addon's section tomorrow (I'm off to bed after I type this). I would help with the Basic files, if I had Basic.

If your open to suggestions:

1. Apply to a select set of cells. Maybe you could list them with a check box next to each one with select all, clear, invert selection buttons.

2. Implement the 'difficultly' slider bar. Perhaps, showing the various settings it applies (like the CCE quality dialog does itself).


Night all.

[DDogg]

quantum, great job! Is there any way you could add the ability to insert an import statement in the avs files like I posted about here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76261)? RB's commandline app does it well but some people have problems with cmdline so I thought it would be great if you included that as part of this app. This would allow the best of all worlds for people as they could use avisynth filters or the CCE internal filters. I guess even a combination of them both, although I as I mentioned before, IMO, the CCE internal filters leave a lot to be desired when compared to avisynth filters.

[quantum]

Originally posted by wmansir
1. Apply to a select set of cells. Maybe you could list them with a check box next to each one with select all, clear, invert selection buttons.Are you sure you think cells is the way to go or by titleset? My first impression would be to break it up by titleset.

2. Implement the 'difficultly' slider bar. Perhaps, showing the various settings it applies (like the CCE quality dialog does itself). I only just noticed that slider recently. Maybe I will try to duplicate that functionality. I could use the practice. I'll start with showing the four key values and allowing those to be changed manually, then try to get fancy with the sliders.

[quantum]

Originally posted by DDogg
quantum, great job! Is there any way you could add the ability to insert an import statement in the avs files like I posted about While the avisynth filters are similar in concept, parsing AVS files would be completely different programming-wise from what ECL Tweaker is doing now. And considering I'm perfectly satisfied with the CCE filters and have plenty to keep me busy for now, I probably won't go down that road any time soon. But it's not out of the question. Maybe when I get farther along I'll revisit the idea.

[jdobbs]

@quantum

Great job.

[Paced]

Great work quantum, I'm quite fond of the CCE filters myself :) One question though, how hard do you think it would be to do the same thing, but with matrices ? That is, allowing us to also choose from CCE's built in matrices? Or better yet, way down the track, allowing us to use our own custom matrices :) Thanks again, this tool is really neat :D

[wmansir]

Originally posted by quantum
Are you sure you think cells is the way to go or by titleset? My first impression would be to break it up by titleset.


Titleset would probably cover 90% of the users need for tweaking, but since DVD-RB encodes at the cell level I just figured it would be optimal to allow as much flexibility as possible, as long as the GUI doesn't become cluttered or a pain to use.

Also, I forgot to mention last time that this utility breaks 2.5 scripts. You might want to include a test to see if the script is 2.5 before you make any changes. Or limit your changes to search/replace to ensure nothing is added that will break the script for it's target encoder.

The only thing that should require lines to be added would be custom matrixes.

[robot1]

@Quantum
Here the settings for CCE basic:
pict_complexity=0-4 (default 2) is the filter strenght
pict_type=0-1-2 for (natural, cg, animations)

filtef_off=0-1 (only for CCE basic 2.67)
filter_on=0-1 (only for CCE basic 2.69)
(why do they change these settings :confused: )

As you can see, it's pretty different from the SP version.

[quantum]

Thanks robot. So it appears you can't set the individual values in CCE Basic? You have to choose a preset and the stength value 0 to 4?

Also, I assume you meant filter below instead of filtef?
filtef_off=0-1 (only for CCE basic 2.67)

@all FYI, these are the ECL values for CCE SP:
use_filter=
dither=
dither_max=
h_filter=
filter_val=
h_filter_idx=
quality_prec=

[robot1]

Originally posted by quantum
Thanks robot. So it appears you can't set the individual values in CCE Basic? You have to choose a preset and the stength value 0 to 4?

Also, I assume you meant filter below instead of filtef?
filtef_off=0-1 (only for CCE basic 2.67)

@all FYI, these are the ECL values for CCE SP:
use_filter=
dither=
dither_max=
h_filter=
filter_val=
h_filter_idx=
quality_prec= Yes "filter". "filtef" was a typo.
As you can see, you can't set individual values (CCE Basic doesn't support filters...). I added in an alpha version of RB-Opt presets for CCE SP, but as you're forward in development, I'll concentrate on other CCE settings.
CCE 2.50 doesn't support dither and h_filter.

[quantum]

Originally posted by jdobbs
@quantum

Great job. Wow, an atta-boy from the master.. I am deeply honored :)

@all
Updated to version 1.1 which should support CCE Basic. Thanks to robot1 for providing the detailed information. Please test this out to confirm it's working.

@wmansir
Thanks for pointing out the problem with 2.5. I haven't fixed it yet but I will get that figured out for the next version.

[robot1]

Now I've installed 2.69, and it doesn't work.
I've done a test, and it seem that it use "filter_off" for all version.
For 2.69 it should instead use "filter_on"

[quantum]

I see what the problem is. DVD RB creates ecl keys for CCE Basic 2.67 which use filter_off. My program is doing a search and replace, so it doesn't find filter_on and doesn't do anything.

I'll fix it an post an update. Thanks for pointing it out.

[quantum]

Posted version 1.2 and I think 2.69 should be working now.

[robot1]

You're really fast.
2.69 works well... and probably before was my mistake (my system is messed up right now). 2.69 should support also filter_off (just tested, and it works even updating with 2.67 settings).
In future version you could include just two radio buttons.
Sorry for the wrong alert.

[SAPSTAR]

Originally posted by quantum
I made a small utility to modify rebuilder.ecl to activate the three preset filters in CCE

Get it HERE (http://connforum.com/ecltweaker.zip)

These are the presets:
- Natural Picture
- Animation
- Computer Graphics

1.2 Fixed support for CCE Basic 2.69
1.1 Added support for CCE Basic
1.0 Initial release

** NOTE ** This works with CCE SP 2.66+ and CCE Basic. It probably doesn't work with CCE 2.5 (yet).

You can confirm this is working two ways. First you should notice a speed decrease in CCE since the filters take some CPU power. Second, you can abort an encode in CCE but leave CCE open, then open the title and click the quality button. You should see the appropriate filter radio button is selected.

I'll probably be expanding on this to include various other ECL tweaks. I may even get into bitrate allocation such as ECL Optimizer.

This is my first venture into native win32 programming so I'd appreciate simple feedback such as the program worked without crashing or it crashed with an error, etc.

First of all ... good idea. If you could do the same thing for the Quantization matrix..it would be really great !

[quantum]

Originally posted by robot1
messed up right now). 2.69 should support also filter_off (just tested, and it works even updating with 2.67 settings).
In future version you could include just two radio buttons. I think you're right. I download the 2.69 trial version and filter_off works when loading the ecl. If you save the ecl in 2.69, it creates the filter_on key, but that doesn't matter in this case since all we care about is loading. I updated to version 1.3 which now has only one radio button for CCE Basic. Thanks for the help in figuring this out.

[DDogg]

Originally posted by SAPSTAR
First of all ... good idea. If you could do the same thing for the Quantization matrix..it would be really great ! I second that, although template support, perhaps down the road in dvd-rb, would also deal with that, as well as CCE internal filters.

[quantum]

Originally posted by SAPSTAR
First of all ... good idea. If you could do the same thing for the Quantization matrix..it would be really great ! I admit I never played with matrixes but they are part of the ECL and thus fit into the scope of the program so I'll see if I can put them in there.

[archaeo]

great job, quantum...

perhaps you could update this post to include WHY and WHEN you would want to apply this tweak to an RB job, for those who may be new to this post or the use of Rebuilder.

[Video Dude]

Nice job quantum.

Wow ... the DVD Rebuilder add on programs keep coming.

[archaeo]

quantum,

good job in explaining why and when to use filters (and that goes for me too!) thanks for the hard work

[quantum]

Updated to version 1.4. Added ability to tweak the various filter parameters. This only applies to CCE SP.

Next I'll add the slider which increases and decreases the preset strength.

[lab-one]

quantum,

are you still planning to implement CCE-sp 2.50 support?

[robot1]

Good job, Quantum.
If you're interested, CCE SP 2.50 uses only quantizer (but the range is 0 -100 instead of 0-64) and the low pass filter (0 - 32). There are no preset (so, default none).

[quantum]

Updated to version 1.5. Added a slider similar to the one found in CCE which modifies the strength of the filter.

The next thing is to work on CCE 2.5 support. Thanks to robot1 for the CCE 2.5 settings.

[robot1]

If I'm not wrong, filter complexity doesn't work for CCE Basic.
The setting is very simple:
CCE Basic uses
pict_complexity=0-4 (default 2)
for the filter strenght.
I think it's just one line of code ;)

[quantum]

Updated to version 1.6. Added support for CCE 2.5. Hopefully it works. Fixed problem with slider not working with CCE Basic. Thanks to robot1 again for the helpful info.

[quantum]

Any plans to allow using the built in CCE filters in DVDRB? The CCE default is to have Natural Picture activated, which DVDRB turns off.

I just got my first big HDTV and suddenly things are much clearer to me now. I find the CCE Natural Picture filter is a good option when bitrate is low, and it's faster than using avisynth filters.

It would be nice not to have to prepare, then hack the ecl file, then encode.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by quantum
Any plans to allow using the built in CCE filters in DVDRB? The CCE default is to have Natural Picture activated, which DVDRB turns off.

I just got my first big HDTV and suddenly things are much clearer to me now. I find the CCE Natural Picture filter is a good option when bitrate is low, and it's faster than using avisynth filters.

It would be nice not to have to prepare, then hack the ecl file, then encode. I'll add it to the CCE Configuration dialog.

[quantum]

Awesome! Let me know if you need help for the keys in the ECL and how the values correspond to the different CCE filter presets. You should be able to activate the filters in CCE, save the ECL and compare the values to a different ECL to figure it out. That's how I did it.

Not to get too pushy, but it would be nice to have the 5 values as represented by the CCE slider "easy to difficult", or as I called it in ECL Tweaker, "weaker to stronger".

So if we could set one of:
Natural Picture->Weakest
Natural Picture->Weaker
Natural Picture->Normal
Natural Picture->Stronger
Natural Picture->Strongest

Be aware the keys for SP 2.66+, and SP 2.5 and Basic are all different.

[kabukijo]

hi,


First off i work with:

1. up-to-date rebuilder (free)
2. cce 2.70.02.00
3. Decrypter up-to-date

Ive done 2 movies lately wich was MISERY (special edition), and CARRIE (special) edition, wich surprisely to my expectations resulted in POOR POOR quality compared to dvdshrink (allot of artifacts once done throug rebuilder). Wot i can tell u about the settings and the movie is as follow. The movie's were dvd9 almost 8GB (90% film material with allot extras and slightly noise). I setup my cce based on wot some1 adviced arround here for users whom works with cce 2.70 or higher, 3 passes VBR_bias=35 CQ prec=25. MY guess is rebuilder in addition with cce probebly needs huge filters along the process to smoothen things up and keep CQ of MAIN MOVIE. According to Rebuilder both movies have to be downsized by almost 60% after he was done preparing the material. I like to know if i can alter some settings either through rebuilder or cce to improve quality? Like ive asked B4 arround here, does ecl_tweaker supports cce 2.70 aswell? As it states to support 2.69+ , does that means all versions starting from 2.69? Although i cant backup it up anymore with loggs folks, since i had to clean up to save space on my HD.

i hope on a response

many tnx in advance,

[kabukijo]

SORRY of my poor english I AM IN A HURRY TODAy:p

[jdobbs]

My advice... if you want to get good quality leave the settings at their defaults. If you plan to use any filtering at all I'd not go any further than undot().deen().

First... change the prec back to 16. It is based upon a fixed scale of 0-64 and it gets converted based on the scale of the version in use, so what you are doing is setting it to 39 in v2.70 -- which is killing picture sharpness. I personally believe also that raising the bias is a bad move, because it inhibits VBRs ability ot adapt.

Tweaking is ok I guess... but it usually does more harm than good.

By the way -- just a rule of thumb... if you are getting worse output with CCE (the best encoder on the planet) than you are with a transcoder... you're doing something wrong.

[kabukijo]

Originally posted by jdobbs

By the way -- just a rule of thumb... if you are getting worse output with CCE (the best encoder on the planet) than you are with a transcoder... you're doing something wrong.

My thoughts exactly:rolleyes: , But the Question is WOT ON EARTH am i doing wrong :confused: Since i usualy keep every default settings appart from the paths ive got to browse for my cce and etc like folders and still i dont get te desired quality lately :eek:? Wot it real REALY confuses me is ive done awhile back TERMINATOR 2 special edition throug rebuilder and dvdshrink 3.1.7 to compare both the quality (nothing ripped or removed = the entire DVD) and i find that the quality of the DVDREBUILDER WOS INDEED SUPERIOR to the one of DVDSHRINK :eek:.
Since then i used more and more REBUILDER until up to now it lose from dvdsrhink again when i try to maintain quality of movies such as MISERY and CARRIE wich are both CLASSICS aswell that theyve remastered on DVD :confused:???

Originally posted by jdobbs

My advice... if you want to get good quality leave the settings at their defaults. If you plan to use any filtering at all I'd not go any further than undot().deen().


Does those filters work in an similar powerfull way such as dvdshrink uses?
i.e: DEEP ANALYSES, ADAPTIVE ERROR COMPENSATION ? Cuz like u stated before and i concure, that cce is one of the best encoders if not ThE BEST. But then again, do i realy need filters then? If so, then i like to give it an shot but i dont realy know how to use those filters. I mean, do ive got to add those lines in filter editor like this,
1. undot(). or undot() same goes for deen()? Or do ive got to fill in the whole path of the original movies , and the working dir of it etc.?? Also can i use those very same filters in a BATCH PROJECT, and how can i tell if it will aply to my movies? Also and AGAIN, does ECL_TWEAKER supports CCE SP 2.70.02 or not?

tnx for hearing me out

Any help is appreciated,

urs kabukijo,

[kabukijo]

I forgot to mention that both movies had an bitrate of max 1990. i just want to point that out to help u figure out if i did alright by setting bias 35 and Q Prec 25 and 3 passes in addition with cce 2.70.02 ? Those vallues are entirely based upon wot ive read throug the forums inhere!! As many ppl claims 3 passes should be more then adequate with cce 2.70 sp! I realy wonder if i can achieve the same quality like ive had with dvdshrink without stealing space from extras or half/resize the video output.

[kabukijo]

I forgot to mention that both movies had an bitrate of max 1990. i just want to point that out to help u figure out if i did alright by setting bias 35 and Q Prec 25 and 3 passes in addition with cce 2.70.02 ? Those vallues are entirely based upon wot ive read throug the forums inhere!! As many ppl claims 3 passes should be more then adequate with cce 2.70 sp! I realy wonder if i can achieve the same quality like ive had with dvdshrink without stealing space from extras or half/resize the video output.
:goodpost:


Like i said in another post , tnx for nothing.