Still getting stutter

[osho]

I just encoded SWAT.

The rip is absolutely amazing on PC.

But playing on my Liteon DVD player I get choppiness all over main movie.

I konw it was posted already but it came to conclusion that it has been resolved.

I used latest DVD=RB and Quenc 0.51.

if the question has been generally answered please forgive me .

1, Is there a to fix the rip. running through some other app?

2. what do to so i can get rip playing correctly on standalone players?
I used rejig and that thing worked well only quenc looks to have problems.

3. dont know why but DVDRB creates 200MB smaller rips as it suppose to be.

any help is welcome thx a lot.

[writersblock29]

@osho

Well, let's see... I'll try and help you as much as I can (and what I goof up on, the many very qualified people on this forum can definately catch and set straight for you; particularly the DVDRB's author, Jdobbs).

But I need some info from you! Specifically, what did you initially use to rip the DVD (ripping being defined as bypassing encryption and placing the original files on your hard drive)? If it was DVD Decrypter, was it the most current version?

What version of DVD Rebuilder are you using? .46 (the most current at the time of this writing)? What options did you select in Rebuilder -- Half D1 for extras... Deinterlacing with Decomb (which, perhaps, Rebuilder tried to use on the main movie, which is already progressive -- IF THAT'S TRUE, there's a bug for Jdobbs to check into). Are you using any other utilities to "tweak" your output from DVD Rebuilder? "One Click" enabled, or did you do the three step process? (What I'm looking for is anything you may have done above and beyond what DVD Rebuilder will automatically do.) While encoding, did you recieve any errors that you had to bypass?

What was your burning application (and version number)? Media? Writing speed? And what's the brand of your burner?

Give us as many details as you can: We don't bore easily! Plus, it'll help us narrow it down for you and possibly set you on the right path. If not, then it may give insight to a bug that can be fixed for version .47.

[Joergen]

I think the magic word there is the Lite-on Player (I didnt even know they made players). It's again a rebranded noname OEM player similar to others that have stutter problems (Apex, Cyberhome, Sampo etc).

I bet theres not much to do except try CCE and wait for jdobbs to find a stuttering player.

Also, how many segments did dvd-rb do for SWAT? Although the segment stutter bug also shows on PowerDVD and WinDVD and is not player specific but some sort of encoding fault.

[osho]

Wow i nearly thought noone would reply,

ok here it goes,

I used DVD Decrypter 3.2.2.0
Quenc 0.51
DVD-RB 0.46
and Mpeg2dec...dll from dvd2avidg100.zip
Avisynth 2.5

DVD-RB settings
Quenc Mode
3 click mode
Dynamiclly assign cell bitrates
half D1 and Half space for extras

AVS options
ConvertToYUV2()
audiodub(BlankClip())
NO deinterlance
Quenc option
I did 2 movies
one with Trellis ON(SWAT)
one with Trells OFF(MASTER AND COMMANDER)

No other tweaks were done during whole process
No error occured during encoding

Burning APP newest NERO 6.3.1.6
MEDIA MEMOREX 4x tried both + and -
Burner Pioneer 107D

Movies Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World (Widescreen)
S.W.A.T. (Widescreen)

BTW my standalone player is LITEON LVD-2002

You know I would really appriciate any help cos the quality is amazing.

I have used DVD-RB on 10 previous movies but using REJIG no problems at all.

thx again

[osho]

Originally posted by Joergen
I think the magic word there is the Lite-on Player (I didnt even know they made players). It's again a rebranded noname OEM player similar to others that have stutter problems (Apex, Cyberhome, Sampo etc).

I bet theres not much to do except try CCE and wait for jdobbs to find a stuttering player.

Also, how many segments did dvd-rb do for SWAT? Although the segment stutter bug also shows on PowerDVD and WinDVD and is not player specific but some sort of encoding fault.

I will look into that but is is not rebranded noname OEM this is Liteon build player. and at the time I bought it, it was 190 dollars.

[Joergen]

But Lite-On is hardly a home theater manufacturer and most probably has not acquired their mpeg2 decoding chips from Sony, NEC, Matsushita (Panasonic), Philips etc but from the same manufacturer as the OTHER comparable brands of non-substantial stature in the (home entertainment) industry.

AFAIK Lite-On manufactures only optical drive mechanics and software (plastic cogs and firmware), they dont even produce the lasers that read and burn discs in their renowned PC hardware.

But, at least there's another brand jdobbs can add to his list of suspect player types. And I like Lite-On, I recommend them to all my friends for cd-burning and dvd-rom drives.

[osho]

all you said is true.

I will test it on Sony when my neighboor comes home.

the thing is rejig with dvd-rb produces correct output. it is Quenc mode

[insanescape]

Sure, you paid 190, but you basically paid a premium for Divx, not superior DVD quality.

[AzraelsCurse]

I still get the same stutter as in the old posts. See the old stutter posts for more info. I don't think it's been resolved yet for anyone still getting stutter after version .40. .40 is the last version that had any affect on stutter, but .40 didn't put a complete stop to it. I think it's largely related to specific DVD players, however I don't consider Sony DVD players noname players. I'm not saying they're the best of the best either, I'm just saying that it's not just his Lite-On with the problem. I've even seen stutter using DVD-RB backed-up DVD's in my Apex 1500, and I have created some way out of spec DVD's that have played perfectly in that thing. I see no stutter using dvd shrink or IC8, but again, more info in the old posts.

[KungFuCow]

I have an LVD-2001. Plays fine on my player.

[Paced]

Originally posted by osho

I have used DVD-RB on 10 previous movies but using REJIG no problems at all.

thx again

I have read in the QuEnc thread (in the Other MPEG 1/2 Encoder forum) that QuEnc has the tendency to go over the maximum/safe bitrate (9800 kbps) that most standalone DVD players can handle - this may be the reason why you're getting the stutter all over the main movie. Here are some suggestions:

1. Before you use DVD-RB, open QuEnc manually, go to the Advanced Options, and set the Max Bitrate to 9000 kbps (and untick 'Auto Max Bitrate' if you haven't done so already). Close QuEnc, then start the DVD-RB process.

or

2. Give CCE a try :)

---------------------

Slightly off the thread topic here, but does anyone know if DVD-RB automatically sets the maximum bitrate in QuEnc to 9000 kbps (like it does in CCE) ? I haven't had the chance to test it yet.

//Update

Looks like DVD-RB doesn't set the maximum bitrate - before running DVD-RB, I opened QuEnc, put 10000 kbps in the Max Bitrate option, closed it, then ran DVD-RB again. 10000 kbps was still set as the Max Bitrate.

[writersblock29]

@Osho

Don't know if there was a bug-fix in this, but there's a newer version of Rebuilder out now (.47). I'd bet that Paced is on the right track, though, with his suggestion; it sounds like you've got most everything configured correctly -- and if Rejig gave you no problems...

As amuzing as the "Ford VS Chevy" debate is (in this case, which brand name sells better DVD players/and/or/Recorders)... if your player's not messing up the playback of any other copies you've made with other software, it ain't your player. Set tops do have a life-span on them -- and when they go down, they go down quickly -- but the chances that your player decided to crash the moment you were playing one of your Rebuilder copies? A little too convenient for my taste!

You might try using Rejig to copy one of the titles that was giving you grief with QuEnc, burn that to a Rewritable, and see how it behaves. (Assuming that Paced's suggestion didn't work, of course!) Since Jdobb's primary concern was to make an easy one-clicker for CCE users, I'd bet that there may just be an overlooked command between Rebuilder and QuEnc at this point. But if you can tweak it within QuEnc, gravy! If the suggestion works, post 'er! Then Jdobbs has a bit of good info for the future, while everyone else with the same problem has a work-around.

Good luck!

[Fr4nz]

Originally posted by osho
I just encoded SWAT.

The rip is absolutely amazing on PC.

But playing on my Liteon DVD player I get choppiness all over main movie.

I konw it was posted already but it came to conclusion that it has been resolved.

I used latest DVD=RB and Quenc 0.51.

if the question has been generally answered please forgive me .

1, Is there a to fix the rip. running through some other app?

2. what do to so i can get rip playing correctly on standalone players?
I used rejig and that thing worked well only quenc looks to have problems.

3. dont know why but DVDRB creates 200MB smaller rips as it suppose to be.

any help is welcome thx a lot.

Maybe bad media quality? Try with a better DVD media brand :)

[Sir Didymus]

Originally posted by Paced
I have read in the QuEnc thread (in the Other MPEG 1/2 Encoder forum) that QuEnc has the tendency to go over the maximum/safe bitrate (9800 kbps) that most standalone DVD players can handle - this may be the reason why you're getting the stutter all over the main movie. Here are some suggestions:

1. Before you use DVD-RB, open QuEnc manually, go to the Advanced Options, and set the Max Bitrate to 9000 kbps (and untick 'Auto Max Bitrate' if you haven't done so already). Close QuEnc, then start the DVD-RB process.

or

2. Give CCE a try :)

---------------------

Slightly off the thread topic here, but does anyone know if DVD-RB automatically sets the maximum bitrate in QuEnc to 9000 kbps (like it does in CCE) ? I haven't had the chance to test it yet.

//Update

Looks like DVD-RB doesn't set the maximum bitrate - before running DVD-RB, I opened QuEnc, put 10000 kbps in the Max Bitrate option, closed it, then ran DVD-RB again. 10000 kbps was still set as the Max Bitrate.

@Paced: Great!!!

I totally agree on the quoted post...
It is also relevant the suggestion of limiting the maximum encoding bitrate. It is to confirm, but if it works it should be included by sure in the to-do list of improvements for DVD-RB...

@Osho: Please follow what Paced suggested and let us know if it works...

I have to say that my encodes are mostly based on CCE...
I had relevant stutter troubles up to release 0.40...
All these problems vanished for me with the newer releases of DVD-RB...
So I was quite surprised to see that some people has still having stuttering...
The hypothesis of Paced seems to me it could give a good explaination for these problems...

Cheers,
SD

[Sir Didymus]

@Fr4nz:

IMHO it is hardly a problem of poor media; Osho sayd that using Rejig he had no problems at all...

[osho]

Thank you all for all wise advises.

I believe that it is not media. I believe that memorex is pretty good for DVD-R and +R they definately were not the cheapest ones. burned around 250 with various server backups and movies.

As some suggested that i give it a go with cce well that is what i am doing. currently at 25% encoding phase.

The reason why I was using Quenc was I like to have my soft free. so we shall see what will come up from CCE.

if there still be problem i will try quenc with limited max at 9000kb although I believe it might have no impact since none of the movies in original format reach that high.

I will let you know in morning, it is 3AM here.

Thx all again

[nawo69]

I'v got the same problem but only with one DVD and it only affects my PS2. (I have only done 3 disc's so far)

And i did the same Disc using the Big3 and it plays fine.

I have tried .45 to .47 with CCE and Rejig and it only plays the first 10 seconds of each chapter.


I used DVD Decrypter 3.2.2.0
DVD-RB 0.45 - 0.47
and Mpeg2dec...dll from dvd2avidg100.zip
Avisynth 2.5

DVD-RB settings
CCE SP 2.67 and also tried Rejig
1 click mode
Dynamiclly assign cell bitrates

AVS options
ConvertToYUV2()
audiodub(BlankClip())

Image created with Imgtool and burned with DVD Decryptor

Works fine on PC and my Encore DVD player but it only plays the first 10 seconds of each chapter on my Playstation 2

[osho]

Ok here I am with update.

I have reencoded stuff with CCE.

No stutter at all. on PC and on standalone player.

But I think that Quenc encodes are nicer, more vivid. therefore I would love to keep using it.

the previous quenc encodes have had problems on brand new sony player. therefore I believe it must be a bug in the DVD-RB. even thou the stutter was not so frequent as on my liteon.

[Paced]

Originally posted by osho
Ok here I am with update.

I have reencoded stuff with CCE.

No stutter at all. on PC and on standalone player.

But I think that Quenc encodes are nicer, more vivid. therefore I would love to keep using it.

the previous quenc encodes have had problems on brand new sony player. therefore I believe it must be a bug in the DVD-RB. even thou the stutter was not so frequent as on my liteon.

You still can use QuEnc, if CCE gives you no stutters, then it's obvious (I think) that QuEnc was going over the safe maximum bitrate (9800kbps); when you have the time, give what I said above a try (set QuEnc's Max Bitrate to 9000 kbps before you start DVD-RB).

[writersblock29]

@Osho

I figured you might find this interesting!

Version 0.48

Below are a summary of the changes/updates associated with this version:

- Corrected an error related to fast forwarding and rewinding through chapter points. The first entry in any Cell's first DSI was not correctly flagging time offsets that had no prior VOBU. My thanks to Sir Didymus for finding and pointing out this error. Extraordinary beta testing!

- Added support for the "-maxbitrate" option to all QUEnc encode command lines. The value is set to the DVD-RB default of "9000" unless changed via the "max_bitrate=" INI option. This might fix some of the stuttering errors seen when using QuEnc.

- Enabled checking that disallows mismatching of modes between the PREPARE and ENCODE phases.

- Fixed an error in which "IDCT7" was not being properly applied when selected. Thanks to djan for discovering this error.

http://forum.doom9.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=491235

(I'm not sure if the link will work... but it's availible in this forum! Sounds like you were heard! Thanks, Jdobbs!)

[JDay]

The new version of DVD-RB does not fix this. This might be a bug in the way DVD-RB handles the pulldown for progressive 23.976fps sources. The original m2vs work fine with both CCE and QuEnc. Is it possible that DVD-RB handles the pulldown differently for CCE and QuEnc? Pulldown works fine for CCE and Quenc (interlaced sources) or when I do the pulldown manually with pulldown.exe on progressive files from QuEnc.

Edit: I did a short clip with CCE and it came out fine. I then replaced the m2v with one encoded with QuEnc and clicked rebuild (all in CCE mode). The output had the stutter. Looks like a problem with QuEnc, rather than DVD-RB.

Update: The above test was with the second cell only, which was entirely progressive. I tried it with the first cell, which is interlaced during the logos and credits, progressive after that (I encoded as interlaced, I think RB flagged it as progressive during rebuild, not exactly sure how that works). That whole cell turned out fine. I'll try running the whole movie through next.

[jdobbs]

When DVD-RB completes it's rebuild every individual frame's TFF, RFF, and progressive flags are set exactly as they were in the original.

[RB]

Originally posted by jdobbs
When DVD-RB completes it's rebuild every individual frame's TFF, RFF, and progressive flags are set exactly as they were in the original.
jdobbs, are you really modifying the per-frame PROGRESSIVE_FRAME flag during rebuild? I don't think you can do that as it at least tells the player how chroma is stored (there is a difference between progressive and interlaced YV12).

[JDay]

I posted this in the "Other MPEG1/2" forum, but I'm not sure if this is a problem with QuEnc or DVD-RB, so I'm posting it here, as well.
I tested the same sequence with QuEnc and CCE. The m2vs, of course, played fine. I then ran them through pulldown and both came out fine when only "mark each frame as progressive" was active. If "mark entire sequence as progressive" was activated, both "stuttered". I'm pretty sure this is a QuEnc issue, rather than a rebuilder issue since even when I "sneak" Quenc segments into CCE projects or CCE clips into QuEnc encodes, the QuEnc segments "stutter" and the CCE clips do not. Is is possible that QuEnc is putting info in the flags or the headers on its progressive streams (different than CCE) that might be causing this?
Also:
Hmm... I've found a little hack to "fix" this issue. You can use pulldown.exe to set the prog_seq flags to interlaced, not changing anything else (-nopulldown -framerate 23.976 -prog_seq i). So, it looks like it's related to the prog_seq flag. DVD-RB's pulldown works fine on material encoded as interlaced, and on progressive material, if its flagged as interlaced. Is this a bug with QuEnc or DVD-RB?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by RB
jdobbs, are you really modifying the per-frame PROGRESSIVE_FRAME flag during rebuild? I don't think you can do that as it at least tells the player how chroma is stored (there is a difference between progressive and interlaced YV12). Actually the decision between interlaced and progressive is made before encode. But it matches the original.

[DVD Maniac]

Until recently I have been fortunate enough not to experience the stutter problems. The one thing that was happening was on some episode DVD's where the chapter points were not working properly - a problem I believe has been resolved with v48.

Now I just tried Kill Bill Vol1. Because the main movie VTS is a relatively small % reduction required (I deleted most of the crappy extras), I decide to keep the DTS sound track. The resulting output played fine with my pc player, but on both my set-tops I got choppy playback. Wierd thing was that the louder the sound at the point in the scene - the more choppy it got.

I have now encoded just the .ac3 stream with Shrink and all is well. I will run a check with Rebuilder tonight, this time keeping ac3. I suspect this will work also.

Could it be that Rebuilder has problems with DTS sound tracks? Anyone had problems with DTS and Rebuilder?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
Until recently I have been fortunate enough not to experience the stutter problems. The one thing that was happening was on some episode DVD's where the chapter points were not working properly - a problem I believe has been resolved with v48.

Now I just tried Kill Bill Vol1. Because the main movie VTS is a relatively small % reduction required (I deleted most of the crappy extras), I decide to keep the DTS sound track. The resulting output played fine with my pc player, but on both my set-tops I got choppy playback. Wierd thing was that the louder the sound at the point in the scene - the more choppy it got.

I have now encoded just the .ac3 stream with Shrink and all is well. I will run a check with Rebuilder tonight, this time keeping ac3. I suspect this will work also.

Could it be that Rebuilder has problems with DTS sound tracks? Anyone had problems with DTS and Rebuilder? Not likely. As far as Rebuilder is concerned all audio tracks are treated equally -- and they are not modified (except clock references).

Recommendation -- check your maximum rate. DTS can be very large compared to AC3. Its possible your combined video and audio are exceeding 9,800Kbs

[writersblock29]

@DVD Maniac

You may still have that problem. I backed up KILL BILL using .47 Rebuilder, but had stuttering in key points: The moment Uma awakens from her coma, for example -- or the coffee table crash at the beginning fight scene. I use CCE as my encoder, and had made copies both with "half D1" and without (written to rewritables), but wound up doing a "movie only" copy using shrink -- which required no compression. I kinda shrugged, reminding myself that I own the original disk; those special features aren't going anywhere if I want to watch them later. *I suppose I should mention that in all cases, I only kept the Dolby Surround track rather than the DTS.*

NOW, I also want to say that I haven't run into any other movies that have displayed this behavior with Rebuilder -- and I've use RB for a few projects so far. I'm half tempted to try KILL BILL again, and check that bitrate setting during the stuttering scenes. Who knows?

[TheBigDave]

I'm still having stuttering problems also. I'm using the latest DVDRB with CCE 2.50. It doesn't happen on all discs. But it's been most noticable on Asian DVDs. The stutter is almost like a layer-break pause or an extra 2-3 still frames inserted into the movie. Strangely it doesn't seem to effect the audio and the movie stays in sync.

I haven't been able to figure out a pattern to the stuttering. Sometimes it happens just once or twice a movie. Another time it happened every 3-4 minutes. And on my latest back-up it happened every 2-3 seconds, but just during a few scenes.

The stuttering only seems to occur on my Toshiba SD-2805. It doesn't happen on my Toshiba SD-V291 or my Liteon lvd-2001. I use Ritek G04 discs which I have never had problems with on these players.

I've tried re-doing it and the stuttering occurs in the exact same places. If I use the Big 3 method it doesn't happen.

I don't have any problems with stuff like time codes, chapters or FF/RW. Other than the stuttering, it turns out perfect.

Anyways, I just wanted to bring this to your attention. If there's any other details I can give you, let me know. Thanks for all your great work.

[TheBigDave]

Originally posted by TheBigDave
And on my latest back-up it happened every 2-3 seconds, but just during a few scenes.

I just ran this DVD through Bitrate Viewer. Here's a picture of BV's reading during a 30-second scene, which had stutters every 2-3 seconds. As you can see the bitrate quickly jumped up very high. I'm guessing this is what caused it?

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1083462694925_DVDRB_Stutter.jpg

Here's a picture of Bitrate Viewer from the same scene on the original DVD which doesn't stutter.

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1082803715761_DVDRB_NoStutter.jpg

The bitrate for that scene appears to be higher on the DVDRB DVD. I thought the maximum bitrate was 9800? But Bitrate Viewer shows that it's 10861 on the DVDRB DVD for that scene. Is that too high?

UPDATE

Here's a Bitrate Viewer picture from another disc that had some stuttering. This is just a short 1 second stutter. As you can see the bitrate at that moment is again very high (10609).

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1082877805298_DVDRB_Stutter2.jpg

[jdobbs]

@TheBigDave

What is your setting for VBR_Bias? Has it changed from the default? If it is set too low it can create some pretty significant bitrate swings. If that isn't it you might want to try lowering the maximum bitrate to 8500 (instead of default value of 9000, it is referenced in the Rebuilder.txt file).

[TheBigDave]

Originally posted by jdobbs
What is your setting for VBR_Bias? Has it changed from the default? If it is set too low it can create some pretty significant bitrate swings. If that isn't it you might want to try lowering the maximum bitrate to 8500 (instead of default value of 9000, it is referenced in the Rebuilder.txt file).

Thanks for the quick response. I have VBR_Bias at 25 (and Quality_Prec at 16). I think I read in this forum that these were the recommended settings. Do you think it would help if I raised it?

To lower the maximum bitrate do I need to open the Rebuilder.ECL file and change it for each cell? Is there a way to do it automatically?

If the maximum bitrate is set to 9000, do you know why I'm getting readings of 10600+? Is that normal?

Thanks for the help.

[DDogg]

TheBigDave, try pasting/replacing the values below into you ini file. They are way safe values. If it stops the stutter you will know what it was.

[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=8000

[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=33

[TheBigDave]

Originally posted by DDogg
TheBigDave, try pasting/replacing the values below into you ini file. They are way safe values. If it stops the stutter you will know what it was.

Thanks for the input. I'll try that out later tonight. I'll post tomorrow to let you know if it works.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by TheBigDave
Thanks for the quick response. I have VBR_Bias at 25 (and Quality_Prec at 16). I think I read in this forum that these were the recommended settings. Do you think it would help if I raised it?

To lower the maximum bitrate do I need to open the Rebuilder.ECL file and change it for each cell? Is there a way to do it automatically?

If the maximum bitrate is set to 9000, do you know why I'm getting readings of 10600+? Is that normal?

Thanks for the help. No it's not normal. But there are circumstances in which the encoder will momentarily go higher than it should. You also have to add in all the audio bitrates when figuring the high end. Normally 9,000 is safe and gives you the best high-end -- but you seem to have hit a couple of movies that have some anomaly that causes the spike. I'd recommend you try DDogg's suggestion and see how it works.

[Trahald]

ive wondered something (it may be something you already accounted for.. if so.. ignore this :) )

this would apply only to ntsc - On hybrid material.. you encode at 23.976 fps.. you output all real frames. rff's are added (amoung other things) to reach '29.97fps' in the film areas (which is fine.. thats what currently is done to film) the video areas just have the tff/interlace flag fixed to match origional.. the video is stamped 29.97 fps.
for the film areas the encoded bitrate is fine since the rffs only appear to make it seam 29.97 fps. but the video parts actually will have to be read faster to keep up since its truely 29.97 fps. this would cause a spike in bitrate.

this would also apply to any non hybrid video(29.97) if its encoded at 23.976 fps and the fps setting is changed after

[DVD Maniac]

You may still have that problem. I backed up KILL BILL using .47 Rebuilder, but had stuttering in key points: The moment Uma awakens from her coma, for example -- or the coffee table crash at the beginning fight scene

writersblock29 - Thanks for the confirmation, I am getting the stutter at exactly the same points and so it must be a bit rate problem. I will try a test with Ddogg's suggestion -



[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=8000

[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=33

Not sure if this will work with DTS though due to its higher bit rates?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Trahald
ive wondered something (it may be something you already accounted for.. if so.. ignore this :) )

this would apply only to ntsc - On hybrid material.. you encode at 23.976 fps.. you output all real frames. rff's are added (amoung other things) to reach '29.97fps' in the film areas (which is fine.. thats what currently is done to film) the video areas just have the tff/interlace flag fixed to match origional.. the video is stamped 29.97 fps.
for the film areas the encoded bitrate is fine since the rffs only appear to make it seam 29.97 fps. but the video parts actually will have to be read faster to keep up since its truely 29.97 fps. this would cause a spike in bitrate.

this would also apply to any non hybrid video(29.97) if its encoded at 23.976 fps and the fps setting is changed after Unfortunately, if you look at TheBigDave's example, he is seeing this bitrate surge on a progressive source -- so at least in this case it would appear not to be the problem. I did give some thought to this when I was developing this method -- but now that you bring it up I think I may need to go back and review it.

[wmansir]

@Trahald

I'm not sure if DVD-RB accounts for Video, Film, and Hybrid states when determining bitrate, but if not I think of it as a feature. I think it does with Dynamic assign, just because of the nature of that method. For fixed/equal bitrate distribution, of course it doesn't, since each job gets the same bitrate.

I'm not sure I follow your description, but I think you may have it backwards. The VIDEO is getting a 25% bitrate increase, not the Film parts.

The Film parts are keept at ~24fps, so there bitrate is the 'true bitrate'. But when encoding the Video parts are slowed down to 24fps. That means 1 second of Video (30 frames) is counted as 1.25 seconds when it is run at 24fps (as it is fed to the encoder). So if your using a bitrate of 1000kbps that 1 second of video will get 1250kb, instead of 1000kb.

Of course CCE is pretty bad (IMO) at encoding interlaced material, so I think a 25% bitrate increase should help keep the quality balanced, if not the actual bits.

[jdobbs]

You also have to factor in the fact that the demand for bitrate goes down during encode -- because the same 1 second of complexity is spread over a 1.25 second window.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Trahald
ive wondered something (it may be something you already accounted for.. if so.. ignore this :) )

this would apply only to ntsc - On hybrid material.. you encode at 23.976 fps.. you output all real frames. rff's are added (amoung other things) to reach '29.97fps' in the film areas (which is fine.. thats what currently is done to film) the video areas just have the tff/interlace flag fixed to match origional.. the video is stamped 29.97 fps.
for the film areas the encoded bitrate is fine since the rffs only appear to make it seam 29.97 fps. but the video parts actually will have to be read faster to keep up since its truely 29.97 fps. this would cause a spike in bitrate.

this would also apply to any non hybrid video(29.97) if its encoded at 23.976 fps and the fps setting is changed after After checking and doing a few tests I think you have identified a valid error (although probably not related to TheBigDave's specific problem). When interlaced sources were being processed the maximum vbr bitrate should have been decreased to compensate for the 1.25 multiplier. I've fixed it and it will be a part of version 0.50.

I think QuEnc may have been undeservedly getting the blame for some of this when it was being used also. Shame on me.

Thanks.

[Trahald]

Originally posted by wmansir
@Trahald
I'm not sure I follow your description, but I think you may have it backwards. The VIDEO is getting a 25% bitrate increase, not the Film parts.

The Film parts are keept at ~24fps, so there bitrate is the 'true bitrate'. But when encoding the Video parts are slowed down to 24fps. That means 1 second of Video (30 frames) is counted as 1.25 seconds when it is run at 24fps (as it is fed to the encoder). So if your using a bitrate of 1000kbps that 1 second of video will get 1250kb, instead of 1000kb.

Of course CCE is pretty bad (IMO) at encoding interlaced material, so I think a 25% bitrate increase should help keep the quality balanced, if not the actual bits.

actually that was exactly what i was saying. 24 for film areas is fine. pulldown does essentially what jdobbs does.. just a different way. that has never been an issue

but the max of 9000 will actually be 11250 during VIDEO parts since cce has bitrate set for 24 frames during a second going into the decoder, but now 30 real frames must be read during the same second.

to address the issue thebigdave brought up.. bitrate viewer has always screwed up bitrate calc on pulldown material.. i think its internal calculator counts for 30 fps. (which would be wrong for film) This happens using pulldown.exe as well. you would have to test the m2v (pre-pulldown) file.. not the VTS_XX_X.vob file

[Trahald]

Originally posted by jdobbs
After checking and doing a few tests I think you have identified a valid error (although probably not related to TheBigDave's specific problem). When interlaced sources were being processed the maximum vbr bitrate should have been decreased to compensate for the 1.25 multiplier. I've fixed it and it will be a part of version 0.50.

I think QuEnc may have been undeservedly getting the blame for some of this when it was being used also. Shame on me.

Thanks.

i type too slow.. hehe.. ok cool.

[TheBigDave]

Originally posted by DDogg
[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=8000
[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=33

I tried this with DVDRB v0.49 and it worked great! Here's a Bitrate Viewer pic of the stuttering scene which no longer stutters:

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1083000936634_DVDRB_FixedStutter.jpg

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that we should look at BV pictures of the m2v files. So here's a BV pic of the original unaltered m2v file:

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1083712038564_DVDRB_Originalm2v.jpg

Here's a pic of the stuttering m2v file:

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1086489073158_DVDRB_Stutterm2v.jpg

And here's the non-stuttering m2v file:
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1086163199779_DVDRB_NoStutterm2v.jpg

If I can provide any additional info, please let me know. Thanks for all the help.

[DDogg]

TheBigDave, I'm pleased that helped you. You taking the time to do a great post with those bitrate graphs is what really helped us better understand the problem.

@Jdobbs, personal note - Quack, Quack :D

[Joergen]

This bitrate stutter is limited to NTSC, or are there possibly other scenarios where a PAL encoding could go beyond the 9000kbit?

Not sure why the "hundreds of segments" movies stutter (had only one though). I havent had any stutter problems with normal 30-50 segment movies.

[KungFuCow]

Could be related to how the player handles out of range bit rates. Ive noticed on my Sony player that sometimes I get a split second glitch sometimes on playback. Could be the same thing, just this particular player may recover more gracefully than some others.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
TheBigDave, I'm pleased that helped you. You taking the time to do a great post with those bitrate graphs is what really helped us better understand the problem.

@Jdobbs, personal note - Quack, Quack :D :confused:

[DDogg]

jdobbs, I was referring to when you and I had a friendly 'discussion' about whether bitrate peaks could be contributing to 'stuttering'. I had seen the same thing with the intro to Matrix Revolutions which had some very difficult encoding scenes that caused a near instantaneous bitrate surge. You disagreed I think that dropping the MAX might help. I then suggested to you if something walked like a duck, and quacked like a duck, it probably was a duck, thus my statement above. I very clearly hear a duck :) Just kidding you, and it was meant in the friendliest way.

[jdobbs]

I think the discussion was along the lines of whether 9000 was too high and that was why the bitrate went over... and as I said then and still say the answer is "No." I don't see how it is related to this discussion -- as Trahald made the valid point not that 9000 is too high (it isn't) but that the method of converting can result in a value that was over 9000.

If you had made that same point I would have agreed with you then as well. So I guess what I'm saying is the if it moos like a cow -- and walks like a horse, then you can't come to the conclusion that it is a duck, no matter how much you wish it was. :) This is also meant in the friendliest way.

[DDogg]

Gee, I'll make sure to tell that to a lot of the people that had older players and this same problem before dvd-rb was a sparkle in your eye. I agree your techniques may have aggravated an existing problem, but it was, and is an existing problem. CCE will spike above 9000 when set at 9000, especially if the bias is set low. Older players with low xX drives have a problem dealing with the heavy near instant bitrate bitrate ramp caused by complex scenes like the ones mentioned in Revolutions. I'm happy to call that any barn animal you would like. Cow, horse or duck...it still stinks for the users of those older players.

[Video Dude]

It is generally a good idea to keep the max bitrate at 8000 if your target is recordable dvd (dvd-r or dvd+r). Some DVD players can't read recordables as "fast" as they can pressed DVDs, especially along the outer edges. It depends on both the quality of the media and DVD player

This is why the author of TMPGEnc limits the max bitrate on the DVD template to 8000, to prevent the stutter.

[DDogg]

I've attached a ScreenShot to this post of the information from the bitrate viewer in DVDLab. DVD-RB was not used to create this sample encode. It was a simple 2 pass Multipass VBR with 4500-0-9000 settings. Bias was set at 30.

Note the nearly instant ramp at the position of the cursor.

I'm always suspicious of any of the tools that show peak bitrate. None of them agree and I do hope we will get a reliable tool one day. What this does show, imo, is that peak bitrate in CCE is an area that needs more investigation. In the meantime, using a MAX of 8000 may be advisable.

/Add: the graph shown is using video only that has had pulldown applied. One or two audio tracks added to this would have really forced up the bitrate, even if only using the 9400 peak figure. I just don't know what to make of that 11k spike at the cursor position. Is it even real, or something misreported by DVDLab's bitrate viewer? The lower figure seems to agree with the standard bitrate viewer tool we are all familiar with.

[Video Dude]

EDIT: This is not a scientific test. It is not meant to reflect all media and players. Just my observations and experiences. I just wanted to point out that it may not be a problem with DVD Rebuilder but a problem with media or player causing the stutter.

Tested on:
2 brands of media
4 different brands of stand alone DVD players

Results:
MAX 9000: Stutter on all 4 players (throughout the disc)

MAX 8500: Stutter on 3 out of 4 players (at the end)

MAX 8000: No Stutter at all

[Sir Didymus]

Originally posted by Video Dude
I did some testing. My results show that recordable media can not handle bitrate over 8000 reliably...


Interesting...
Just for curiosity,
what is the brand and model of the players ?

[DDogg]

Video Dude, those are important and serious statements. I wonder if you could take the time to edit your post and further describe your testing methods? With DVD-RB? What bias if CCE? AVG/MinMax?, etc.,etc.. The important thing is having enough information to be able to duplicate your results. Scientific process and all that jazz :)

Btw, I think you are correct that 8000 is a good 'insurance' setting, although I have never thought about there being any difference between recordable media and pressed media. That's an interesting twist to the problem. I would like to learn more about it. All sources with more information gratefully received if you have any conveniently available.

Since these odd high bitrate spikes would only be caused in a VBR environment when the encoder encounters a highly complex scene (IMO), I don't think anybody would notice a whit of difference visually or quality wise using 8000 as a Max, although I freely admit to conjecture on the subject.

[Joergen]

Unreliable media on a low quality reader will surely drop the max read speed towards the end. If you expect that it reads at 1X, but add the read retrys and error correction it will be lower than this. Btw does a dvd spin at the same RPM at all times, so the reading gets harder as the data moves faster infront of the laser at the end?

[Video Dude]

Here you go DDogg, more details.

A few months ago I made a bunch of clips with my camcorder so I could test out the different mpeg encoders. I wanted the best settings for my vacation tapes. I intentionally made some extended complex scenes with lots of motion and zooming. I encoded them with TMPGEnc and CCE Basic. My Toshiba dvd player has an on screen bitrate viewer that overlays the bitrate while you watch the video. The high motion scenes required the most bitrate. I noticed when the high motion scenes has a bitrate higher then 8500 for more then 15-20 sec, the disc began to "thrash" in the player causing a stutter especially at the end of the disc. When the bitrate went down it played normally. I did some google research and found a possible cause might be the buffer in the dvd player. So I made the bitrate 8000 max and everything played perfectly. I know that commercial pressed discs go as high as 9800, so I assumed it must be due to the recordable. Then a while ago I read a posting on the official TMPGEnc boards and someone else noticed that high bitrates causes recordables to skip at the end, and said that is why the DVD template in TMPGEnc is set for 8000 (sorry I couldn't find the post).

This is no means a scientific test, it is just my opinion on why it stutters. I was reading this topic about the stutter and it reminded me of vacation tape testing. I just wanted to point out that it may not be a problem with DVD Rebuilder but a problem with media or player. I didn't mean to make a big deal about it to have you call it a serious statement. I'm sure there are many people not having problems with recordables.

[Joergen]

Originally posted by Video Dude
I noticed when the high motion scenes has a bitrate higher then 8500 for more then 15-20 sec, the disc began to "thrash" in the player causing a stutter especially at the end of the disc.

I've also done some DV to DVD and VHS to DVD discs with CCE and used 9000 for max and had no stutter problems in complex scenes. I've even done one disc with 9000kbit CBR without problems. This was on quality Ritek G03 media burned at 1X.

What audio did you use in conjunction with the video? I used 2ch 192kbit MP2.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Joergen
I've also done some DV to DVD and VHS to DVD discs with CCE and used 9000 for max and had no stutter problems in complex scenes. I've even done one disc with 9000kbit CBR without problems. This was on quality Ritek G03 media burned at 1X.

What audio did you use in conjunction with the video? I used 2ch 192kbit MP2. I'm also having a hard time with this. The standard associated with this is related to the spin rate of the disc (1x), pit size, and buffer requirements that lead to bitrate after including overhead, error detection, audio, etc as an end result... I don't think the disc can meet the minimum requirement to be labeled "DVD" if it couldn't handle this. The only way it should fail to meet it would be through errors and retries (as was mentioned by Joergen).

[Joergen]

Not to say Video Dude's findings arent true to his combination of encoder/burner/media/player.

Perhaps a "limit bitrate to 8000kbit" option in the expert settings would do well so people could try it or even use it to be "safe".

When you think about transcoding, DVDShrink always takes away so you'll never get anywhere near the max bitrate unless you compress by less than 90% of the original bitrate, which is rare.

I know its a hairy subject but what do the "groups" recommend for max bitrate for DVD-R? Those communities are experts at bitching and surely if they use 9000kbit or more for max it's ok for all :)

edit: a further question for Video Dude; Have you ever done a movie only or other 1:1 encode with dvdshrink of a movie that originally has 1 or 2 audio streams? (lots of streams means less video bitrate in the original) And do they work without stutter?

[Video Dude]

I think there was some confusion over what I posted. Let me clear it up so we can put this issue to rest.

I am not saying, or am I implying, or trying to argue recordable media can't handle a bitrate over 8000. I agree with jdobbs about the dvd standard point. My goal was to say perhaps the stutter "bug" was not the fault of DVD Rebuilder, but perhaps the media or dvd player. I only brought this issue up because reading this topic and seeing Ddogg's graph reminded me of my past experience. My stutter cleared up once I made 8000 max. I thought I would share my experience because I thought it might help somebody. Again, I did not mean that the universal max should be 8000, but those having the stutter problem might want to try 8000 to be safe. There are probably a much greater number of users not having problems then there are people experiencing the stutter. Perhaps the way I presented my test results, some misinterpreted what I was trying to say.

[DDogg]

Video Dude, very sorry if I inadvertently threw you to the wolves :) It was not my intention. This is the type of subject that pits the practical against the theoretical. I tend to opt for the practical. In this case, 'Revolutions' stutter on my old Apex when encoded with, or without dvd-rb, if the Max bitrate is 9000. It does not stutter if the Max bitrate is 8000. Guess which one I'll use :)

[Video Dude]

No problem, DDogg :D

[DDogg]

Originally posted by Joergen
I've even done one disc with 9000kbit CBR without problems. It darn well better work with CBR. Like jdobbs said, it is a dvd and and is supposed to handle rates like this. What I am speaking of is can it handle a total VBR bitrate spike of 12,000? 11,000? 10,000? Can all/any/some players go from near 0 bitrate to one of those rates is a few hundredths of a second? CBR should not exhibit any of these problems.

The 11k bitrate spike shown in DVDLab bitrate viewer graphic I posted troubles me (if accurate). The peak rate already showed a potential problem if enough audio tracks are added, but an 11k spike followed by many more of a similar rate would seem to nearly 'overload' the buffer and I would guess maybe the processing chips?

[DDogg]

Attached bitrate view of DV footage. Encoded OPV20 0-9000.

DV is really tough on an encoder.

@Mod - Moderate when convenient please.

[Joergen]

Originally posted by DDogg
What I am speaking of is can it handle a total VBR bitrate spike of 12,000? 11,000? 10,000?

If there really are peaks like that, it's surely a problem (unless commercial discs have lots of them too).

Beside the 1X reading speed for the DVD, there probably even exists a limit to how much data the mpeg2 chip or memory can pass through per second. Unless a specific DVD player's mpeg2 decoding chip is based on a DVB-S/T chip (that is supposed to handle up to 25mbit per second), but the cheapo brands most probably cut their hardware close to the limits to save in production costs.

Are those peaks limited to NTSC and caused by calculation errors?

[jdobbs]

The maximum peak a player can stand depends a lot on buffer size.

[Obi Wan Celeri]

Whoo it's been a long time :)

Has anyone ever noticed that the actual .M2V file was stuttering?
I was trying to make a personnal backup of the fantastic "Allegro Non Troppo" (a must if you like animation and classical music) and after burning it and watching it on my home DVD player I noticed stuttering in 3 chapters (of an extra on the DVD).

So I bought a brand-name DVD-R and burned ... same problem.

I finally checked the source and discovered that the actual .M2V file was jumpy ... So far it's only done this to me with this particular DVD.

Searching further I found that the .AVS file also produced a stuttering video ... so maybe DVD-RB has a problem "cutting" at chapter ends in some specific cases?

It's also possible that the original DVD had the chapters end at a weird place (certainly seems like this here).

I might try to manually fix the .AVS files and try forcing DVD-RB to reassemble the whole thing afterwards ...

For those who would like to know here are my specs ...
Allegro Non Troppo NTSC
DVD Rebuilder 0.49
DVD Decrypter 3.2.2.0
AVISynth 2.54, Jan 26 2004 [09:28:02]
MPEG2Dec3dg.dll 1.0.1.0
Decomb 5.10
CCE SP 2.66.1.7
Pioneer A06

Thanks!
Obi Wan Celeri

[Obi Wan Celeri]

Fixed the stuttering by changing the following line in one of the .AVS files ...

Before
trim(21502,31537)

After
trim(21501,31537)

I moved the frame back by 1 ...

Now this is all fine and dandy but is there a way to fix this automagically? Now that's the 1,000,000$ question ...

Obi Wan Celeri
D2V file available on demand (more if needed)

[Sir Didymus]

Originally posted by Obi Wan Celeri
Fixed the stuttering by changing the following line in one of the .AVS files ...

Before
trim(21502,31537)

After
trim(21501,31537)

I moved the frame back by 1 ...

Now this is all fine and dandy but is there a way to fix this automagically? Now that's the 1,000,000$ question ...

Obi Wan Celeri
D2V file available on demand (more if needed)

:confused: :confused: :confused:

What do you mean with this ?
Did you verify carefully that the original cell contain one frame more than the rebuilt cell, before doing your test ?
Did you discover that Mpeg2Dec3dg.dll is actually decoding a wrong number of frames ?
Did you just perform some "let's try and see..." test with your avs files ?

Please consider that some badly produced original DVD may "stutter" or even not play at all due to errors or scratches...

[Obi Wan Celeri]

Originally posted by Sir Didymus
:confused: :confused: :confused:

What do you mean with this ?
Did you verify carefully that the original cell contain one frame more than the rebuilt cell, before doing your test ?
Did you discover that Mpeg2Dec3dg.dll is actually decoding a wrong number of frames ?
Did you just perform some "let's try and see..." test with your avs files ?

Please consider that some badly produced original DVD may "stutter" or even not play at all due to errors or scratches...

Ok sorry if I wasn't clear. Hopefully this reply will straighten things out a bit :)

First of all the original DVD works properly on my DVD player. The disc is not scratched at all. Nor does it skip when played. Nor is it a bitrate issue; theoretically such bitrate bottlenecks don't exist on a PC when playing off a hard drive.

The extracted VOBs are equally OK; they play properly too. No skipping (used Media Player Classic and opened the main IFO).

So logically, DVD-RB has something to do with the problem. Let's proceed step by step.

1. A few chapters of the final (converted) movie stutter (even when played directly from the hard disk). Since we know the source is good, then it must be because of DVD-RB / CCE / Decomb.
2. The corresponding .M2V stutters. The problem didn't happen rebuilding the DVD (last phase).
3. Searching deeper, the corresponding .AVS file, when played in Virtual Dub, stutters there too. So CCE has nothing to do with this problem (Encoding phase).
4. Activating or deactivating Decomb doesn't seem to make any diference. So bar that too.
5. Only by manually changing the corresponding .AVS file (as per my previous example) can we get the stuttering to dissapear.

We are therefore left with a few possible causes for this problem:
a. DVD-RB has a bug and cuts chapters/cells at the wrong place
b. The original DVD cuts chapters/cells at the wrong place
c. Something is wrong with me and I goofed up somewhere.

We can safely rule out b. since the DVD and the extracted files run perfectly.
While c. is possible, I made sure I checked everything before posting here.
Which leaves a. as the only possible source.
And as I said this might end up being quite a nasty little problem; how is it possible to identify frames that will cause stuttering if played first? Also being forced to manually edit .AVS files is not something really user friendly ;)

So now hopefully this is a bit clearer :)

Obi Wan Celeri

[Sir Didymus]

Ok.

Please consider the following is just related to the video contents...

Maybe there are other simpler and more efficient ways, but the process I would use to verify if the cutting points produced by DVD-RB are right, would be to open the the original VOB with vobedit and demux it by cell id. You get a lot of smaller VOB, each one corresponding to the cellid/vobid of the title. You open again with vobedit the specific vob you want to analyze and demux its video stream, producing the related m2v file.

Now, for the specific cell you want to look at, you have two m2v: one is extracted directly from the original and the other is the one produced by DVD-RB. Both should have the same frame number and scene changes position. Using dvd2avi and virtualdub you should be able to get a deeper look at the m2vs for obtaining a definitive answer to item a. in your post... :)

Good look and cheers
SD

[Toranaga]

Ok, here I thought DVD-RB was ready to take on my Bond collection. But after doing 6 films, i realize that there is still a problem with the audio drop-outs :confused:

I thought this had been solved? I am using 0.49.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Obi Wan Celeri
Ok sorry if I wasn't clear. Hopefully this reply will straighten things out a bit :)

First of all the original DVD works properly on my DVD player. The disc is not scratched at all. Nor does it skip when played. Nor is it a bitrate issue; theoretically such bitrate bottlenecks don't exist on a PC when playing off a hard drive.

The extracted VOBs are equally OK; they play properly too. No skipping (used Media Player Classic and opened the main IFO).

So logically, DVD-RB has something to do with the problem. Let's proceed step by step.

1. A few chapters of the final (converted) movie stutter (even when played directly from the hard disk). Since we know the source is good, then it must be because of DVD-RB / CCE / Decomb.
2. The corresponding .M2V stutters. The problem didn't happen rebuilding the DVD (last phase).
3. Searching deeper, the corresponding .AVS file, when played in Virtual Dub, stutters there too. So CCE has nothing to do with this problem (Encoding phase).
4. Activating or deactivating Decomb doesn't seem to make any diference. So bar that too.
5. Only by manually changing the corresponding .AVS file (as per my previous example) can we get the stuttering to dissapear.

We are therefore left with a few possible causes for this problem:
a. DVD-RB has a bug and cuts chapters/cells at the wrong place
b. The original DVD cuts chapters/cells at the wrong place
c. Something is wrong with me and I goofed up somewhere.

We can safely rule out b. since the DVD and the extracted files run perfectly.
While c. is possible, I made sure I checked everything before posting here.
Which leaves a. as the only possible source.
And as I said this might end up being quite a nasty little problem; how is it possible to identify frames that will cause stuttering if played first? Also being forced to manually edit .AVS files is not something really user friendly ;)

So now hopefully this is a bit clearer :)

Obi Wan Celeri You've ignored the impact of AVISYNTH and MPEG2DEC3. Both are still players at the point you are discussing. Tell me this... what is the frame numbers of the AVS immediately preceding this one? If it ends at 21501 you've missed the mark. I'm betting it does. If not, we are onto something.

[Obi Wan Celeri]

[Toranaga]

Actually, in my case it's more of a "video stutter". The audio is, for all intents and purposes perfect. In fact DVD-RB doesn't touch the audio at all, it just transfers it.

BTW, If anyone would like me to I could show pictures of what happens (I'd post 5-10 frames between two chapters) when the stuttering starts.

Anyways, to be completely honest, DVD-RB has been fantastic in 8 of the 10 titles I've thrown at it. My guess is you can easily do all your Bond collection - just watch them all to be sure ;)

... my name is celeri, creme of celeri :cool: ...

Oh, you can try different software but so far DVD-RB gives the best results.

[Sir Didymus]
Thanks for the info. I will look into it when I get a chance :)
And I will (of course) post my findings on this thread!

[Obi Wan Celeri]

[JDobbs]
I'm definetly NOT an expert but if I understand you correctly you are telling me the problem lies within MPEG2DEC3 or AVISynth; maybe they have a problem with this particular stream. Maybe.

Ok, as far as the frame sequence is concerned, here are the contents of two subsequent .AVS files. It all looks perfect on paper but on practice I get jerkiness.

#------------------
# AVS File Created by DVD Rebuilder
# VOBID:01, CELLID:03
#------------------
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb510.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\ALLE\D2VAVS\V03.D2V")
trim(19032,21501)
FieldDeinterlace(blend=false)
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

<--- This is where the jerkiness starts --->
<--- The first 100 frames are in the clip below --->

#------------------
# AVS File Created by DVD Rebuilder
# VOBID:01, CELLID:04
#------------------
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb510.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\ALLE\D2VAVS\V03.D2V")
trim(21502,31537)
FieldDeinterlace(blend=false)
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

And I also made a small video that corresponds to frame 21502-21601 in DivX 5, no audio (audio isn't an issue here). Notice the blocks and the jerkiness.
http://www.celeri.org/Video_stuttering_in_allegro_non_troppo.avi

Hopefully this is not caused by a stupid error on my part ;)
P.S.: I might try decoding with IDCT=7 ... who knows?
[EDIT]: Tested ... and it didn't work :(

[jdobbs]

I wasn't implying it was AVISYNTH or MPEG2DEC3 -- I was pointing out that you had not yet ruled out all possiblities as you had said. Also you had saidDVD-RB has a bug and cuts chapters/cells at the wrong place The point I am making is that this is not likely because of the thousands of chapters it has calculated split successfully. It is also unlikely because of the way I know the code works -- the fact that the two files have different VOBID/CELLID combinations means that there was a NAVPACK between the two frames that changed the IDs. The AVS files you just posted seems to substantiate what I'd said. If you change the start frame in the second AVS to 21501 (as you said you did) -- you are repeating that frame in both cells. I can assure you that isn't correct.

The example you've given doesn't actually "stutter." It just shows some blocking artifacts. I couldn't tell from the example, but it could be an authoring error on the original. My guess is that the second cell in your example has frames that are not temporally accurate or complete. If the point of the blockiness is a cut point between two cells, it certainly is a strange place to have one.

I'm not really sure what else to tell you on this one. Sorry.

[AzraelsCurse]

After reading Obi Wan Celeri's posts, I checked the m2v's of the movie's that I get stutter in. I notice that they do not stutter when played on the computer, but I did notice that the stutter(seen only in stand-alone's) is at the beginning of an m2v. It can be anywhere in a chapter, but I thought it was intresting that it was at the beginning of a new m2v(every time).
I'm going to test authoring a dvd using several of the seemingly trouble m2v's, and if they don't stutter, maybe some stand-alone's don't like something with how DVD-RB is rebuilding the dvd from the m2v's?
Does anyone else who is having stand-alone only stutter notice that it is at the beginning of m2v's?

Update:
I grabbed some of the stuttering(stand-stand alone only) m2v's from 2 different dvd-rb projects, merged them(each dvd's m2v's merged separately) added pulldown, created a dvd with tmpgenc dvd author(without audio, or chapter breaks, ect.) and it played without stutter on my stand-alone dvd players. So, that seems to say that the encoding phase works correctly, and since the encoding phase relys on the prepare phase, then the prepare phase is at least mostly working correctly, so I'm leaning toward a rebuild phase problem. I'm certainly no expert though, and I certainly don't fully comprehend the full level of Magic that jdobbs is working here, so maybe some of the experts can make something out of this information. But who knows, maybe I'm the only one still getting usually minor stutter when playing back DVD-RB back-ups in my stand-alone dvd players.
I have tried the min_bitrate and max_bitrate settings as recommended in this thread and it had no effect on the stutter that I am getting, however I only tested one dvd so far with those settings.

[DVD Maniac]

I tried Master and Commander with Rebuilder, keeping the DTS sound track. When played on both my set-tops it stutters immediately at the start of the film and continues every 10 seconds or so. I ran the offending vob file through bit rate viewer and it was only peaking at 6500 so I just don't understand why its doing this.

I also tried Intolerable creulty (again with DTS) - same result but this time its peaking at around 8500.

Why this inconsistency? From my experience, Rebuilder just does not seem to cope with DTS at all.

What bitrate settings should I be trying in the setup file to get DTS encodes working?

[Obi Wan Celeri]

Originally posted by jdobbs
The example you've given doesn't actually "stutter." It just shows some blocking artifacts. I couldn't tell from the example, but it could be an authoring error on the original. My guess is that the second cell in your example has frames that are not temporally accurate or complete. If the point of the blockiness is a cut point between two cells, it certainly is a strange place to have one.

I'm not really sure what else to tell you on this one. Sorry.

First of all, thanks for looking into this :)
No matter if it can't be resolved. Let me know if you need me to run some extra tests.

Well this blockfest goes on for three chapters and then subsides and everything is back to normal. The more I look at it, the more I think the cut is on a frame that should'nt be cut. As for the fact that it doesn't look like stuttering, the next chapter is a bit more evident but still it does give a pretty good idea.

The material is also half video and half animation, on top of which it's PAL stuff converted to NTSC. Certainly ripe for errors. Although I must say the conversion is nice and clean and the jump between chapters is allright (when watching the original).

Other than that I'm really sorry it takes me forever to reply ... keep ... on falling ... asleep on my ... keyboard (play Star Trek action theme)

Obi Wan Celeri

[Joergen]

Celeri's video clip looks most like DV-errors in the master tape. Boy were those people blind (and dirty to make their tapes so terrible) :p

In any case it is definetly not MPEG2 errors since MPEG2 erros show themselves as various RGB error blocks (usually green) and as smaller blocks. DV-errors are clean and made of large blocks of the previous unerrorous blocks.

[Noah]

Version 0.50

Below are a summary of the changes/updates associated with this version:

- Corrected an error in which the maximum bitrate could peak higher than that set in the max_bitrate setting when working with interlaced sources. This is highly likely to have been the source of infrequent frame stutters at high demand points in encoding. The problem is the result of DVD-RB's inherent method of feeding frames to CCE and QuEnc. Please note that if you browse the .ECL files for interlaced sources, they will now show a vbr_brate_max= value that os 80% of the default setting -- do not change it. It is right, and the resulting stream (after processing) will still match the max value. Excellent observation by Trahald.
I [and it seems others] have had this problem with progressive sources. Has this been addressed for progressive frames as well or should we continue to manually set vbr_brate_max=8000? I guess I'll test the new version on what I just encoded (of course, forgetting to lower vbr_brate_max ;)) and report back.

EDIT: Looks good. Version 0.50 is setting vbr_brate_max=7200 on a progressive source, which results in a MAX/AVERAGE bitrate of 8792/7648 from a 9209/7553 source at 0% reduction. vbr_brate_max=8000 on the same clip produces 9471/7654. I'll think I'll be leaving it at 7200 unless I'm only doing very limited compression, in which case I'd probably be using a transcoder anyway.

Nice work, jdobbs! Might want to update the version history to show that this is fixed for progressive sources, as it seems to be.

[TheBigDave]

I tried the latest DVDRB (v0.50), and I'm still getting the brief stutter at abnormally high bitrates. Putting in the "max=8000" has worked well. But the new release hasn't fixed my problem.

Here are some Bitrate Viewer pics of a stuttering scene:

Original (no stutter):

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1087213796400_Original.jpg

DVDRB v0.49 with max=8000 (no stutter):

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1083927100469_RE_NoStutter.jpg

DVDRB v0.50 without max=8000 (stutter):

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/1203959/1087227959922_RE_Stutter.jpg

As you can see, with DVDRB v0.50 (without max=8000) I'm still getting a 10,000+ bitrate spike. This particular stutter is not at the beginning or end of a cell. It's right in the middle of one.

Anyways, I'm happy with using DVDRB and the "max=8000". That works fine for me, and I haven't had any problems with it.

If I can provide any additional information for you, please let me know.

[DVD Maniac]

Thanks for this info BigDave

Further to my earlier post on this subject, I am getting frequent stuttter problems that do not appear to be consistently linked to high bit rates, specifically when retaining DTS sound tracks. I have tried the max bit rate = 8000 setting with v0.49 last night but still with stutter problems with the DTS track retained. Odd thing is that I am getting stutter with DTS tracks with bit rates peaking well below the so called stutter threshold (only around 6500 peak).

I am going to try v0.50 with / without the max rate setting to see what happens.

Anyone any ideas why DTS seems to be such a problem for Rebuilder?

[the-warriners]

Forgive my ignorance but where do I set the max_bitrate in DVD-RB

I have been through all the menus and I cant see the setting anywhere

[DVD Maniac]

You need to put the settings in the Rebuilder.ini file using notepad or equivilant editor.

Try these settings as recommended by ddog -

[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=8000

[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=33

[TheBigDave]

Originally posted by the-warriners
Forgive my ignorance but where do I set the max_bitrate in DVD-RB
I have been through all the menus and I cant see the setting anywhere

Where your Rebuilder.exe file is located you'll also see a rebuilder.ini file. Open it up. You'll find sections for [Options], [Setup], [Paths], [CCEOptions] and [Audio].

Under [Options] add:

min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=8000

And under [CCEOptions] change the VBR_bias to read:

VBR_bias=33

[Toranaga]

There is no [Audio] section in the ini file.

[TheBigDave]

Originally posted by Toranaga
There is no [Audio] section in the ini file.

I have one in mine. It says:

[Audio]
VTS01=11000000

[Noah]

DVD Maniac,

Are you sure your problems are with DTS? Have you tried doing DD5.1 equivalents?

I've had some similar problems. I did Die Another Day (among others, which I haven't completely checked) with DTS before the stuttering/bitrate peak issue became known, and I ended up with stutters at nearly every chapter break and a handful of 10,000+ bitrate peaks. Maybe 40 across the whole movie, so not on the order of every 10 seconds, but I'd sure like to know I can keep the best audio track without expecting this.

Meanwhile, Daredevil with DTS made it through without the chapter break problems and only 1 bitrate peak that I've found.

Both of these were reauthored with Shrink to movie-only before re-encoding, so the authoring may not be perfect, either.

Obviously, we need to be checking DD5.1 versions, preferably at the same % reduction rate, or maybe just keep both tracks. Is it possible to actually select audio tracks after encoding in 3-click mode? I seem to remember that at least being selectable...whether it would actually change anything I'm not sure, but I can't see why not. If so, audio tracks could be rebuilt into the same encoded video. That would be the best way to isolate DTS as problematic.

[DVD Maniac]

Noah,
I have tried the equivilants with dd5.1 and the stutter problem goes away. Bitrate analysis of the resulting failed outputs (with DTS) from Rebuilder are not consistently peaking over 8000 but yet still the stutter problems - thats why I think its specific to DTS.

I am going to run some tests with v,050 tonight to see if this version solves the problems.

[Noah]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
Noah,
I have tried the equivilants with dd5.1 and the stutter problem goes away.Bitrate analysis of the resulting failed outputs (with DTS) from Rebuilder are not consistently peaking over 8000 but yet still the stutter problems - thats why I think its specific to DTS.
Hmmm....that's convincing enough. Can you determine if the stutters correspond to any characteristic of bitrate? Maybe a very low bitrate or a wild swing in bitrate, in which case raising the VBR_Bias might be worth a try. I just can't think of what to check beyond that, since I don't think DVD-RB does anything with the audio stream apart from demuxing and remuxing. I'm really not familiar enough with how that works to troubleshoot those processes.

I am going to run some tests with v,050 tonight to see if this version solves the problems.
Don't get your hopes up...AFAIK, the only fix in 0.50 is to set vbr_brate_max=7200 (or 0.8 * max_bitrate if you override the 9000 default).

BTW, what DVD player(s) have you tested this on?

[DVD Maniac]

Noah,

DVD Players tested are Philips DVR70 and Panasonic 717 (the later normally VERY forgiving of DVD compliance requirements, the former is a real pig for EXACT compliance)

Lets see what v0.50 comes up with with a DTS tonight run ....

[Toranaga]

Just ran a Bond movie with 0.50 and the custom settings and it seems it helped with the audio stutter.

[DVD Maniac]

I ran a first test with a DTS title that was stuttering with v0.49 and the problem seems to have been fixed. I want to run some more tests with some other DTS titles as I am not convinced that bit rate spikes were the only problem.

So far so good though!

[Toranaga]

Originally posted by TheBigDave
I have one in mine. It says:

[Audio]
VTS01=11000000

I don't have this setting. Do I need it?

[AzraelsCurse]

Tested 2 previously stuttering movies with .50...
It has completely removed the stuttering in Runaway Jury, and slightly reduced the minor stuttering in Armageddon.
However the 2 spots in Armageddon that stutter in my Sony, continue to barely, yet noticably stutter. Overlookable even(it's only in the sony). It's a shame it's not silky smooth(yet?) like a IC8, but the quality is just unbeatable.
When I previously tried forcing max bitrate in Runaway Jury, it either did nothing, or 8000 was still too high. .50 backs it up perfectly though.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by TheBigDave
I have one in mine. It says:

[Audio]
VTS01=11000000 The [Audio] section is used for saving selected audio exclusions in .RBD (project) files. When a project file is loaded, it's settings are put in the .INI file. So, if you never use open/save project options -- it won't be there. It also isn't read from the INI unless a "Open Project" has taken place.

The 1's and 0's each represent one of the audio streams in the "Audio Streams to Keep" list box. 1=Keep, 0=Don't keep.

[DVD Maniac]

Well I (tried) watching two results from Rebuilder v0.50 last night and I am afraid to say the stuttering problems are still there. Here is the bitrate data -

1. Master and Commander (Progressive) with DTS retained

Source max bit rate 8300
Rebuilder v0.50 6588

2. Kill Bill Vol1 (Interlaced) with DTS retained

Source max bit rate 8266
Rebuilder v0.50 7730

In the first case I was getting stutter about 10 times through the film, the second one was as bad as with v0.49 with stutter just about constant through playback. Switching to my more forgiving set-top pretty much eliminated stutter from the first title and reduced it slightly on the second.

Looking at the data above there seems to be a correlation between increased stutter and higher max bit rates, BUT -


Why is there still stutter at all, even though the resulting encodes are below the 8000 threshold?

I still think this is a DTS related problem with Rebuilder as DD5 encodes work just fine with Rebuilder v0.50 and the above examples

[jdobbs]

I'll take a look at it, but I can't imagine why DTS would cause a stutter. It is left intact from the original. Have you looked at the IFO file? Do these stutters all occur at points that show a discontinuity? (Marked as "Layer Break" by IFOEDIT)

[jdobbs]

We need to keep the subjects straight. Going back through this thread I'm seeing comments about "stutter" -- some of which aren't stutter at all, others that are speaking of audio dropouts and some that are actually discussing video stutter.

Let's define "stutter" for this discussion as meaning picture jumps... not blockiness, pixelations, or anything else... but a point at which it appears to skip or lack smooth movement (like there is 1 or more frames missing in the stream).

Let's also define "audio dropout" as a point at which the sound appears to have gone silent for a short period only to return.

I'd also like to see comments as to how often you see it (every disc you do, rarely, etc.) -- the reason I need to know this is because the vast majority of DVD-RB users are seeing no stutter at all -- so there is something unique in the methods being used or the equipment. I agree I have to fix it, but until I can get my arms around it I'm not sure I will ever be able to do it.

I can tell you that I have done dozens of discs, and the only stutter I have ever seen was related to the layer break.

One think I definitely have to check is the DTS variable. I never keep DTS because I think it is a waste of space -- I will do a couple and see if I start to see any stutter.

[DVD Maniac]

Hi jdobbs and thanks for taking the time to look at this. To help you with isolating this problem here are my answers to your questions / comments -

Have you looked at the IFO file? Do these stutters all occur at points that show a discontinuity? (Marked as "Layer Break" by IFOEDIT)

No, they are frequent and do not cooincide with any Layer break cells / vob points

Let's define "stutter" for this discussion as meaning picture jumps... not blockiness, pixelations, or anything else... but a point at which it appears to skip or lack smooth movement (like there is 1 or more frames missing in the stream).

Let's also define "audio dropout" as a point at which the sound appears to have gone silent for a short period only to return.


You are absolutely right, I am seeing BOTH problem types. Taking my previous examples, the first one was definitely a case of Audio Dropout as you have defined it (no video skipping). Its occuring seemingly randomly and does not coincide consistently with bit rate spikes.

My second example was definitely stutter, with skipped video frames and coincides more directly to bit rate spikes (but as I have said, well below 8000). My Kill Bill example was awful, with stuttering every 10 seconds or so. A DD5 encode works just fine.


One think I definitely have to check is the DTS variable. I never keep DTS because I think it is a waste of space -- I will do a couple and see if I start to see any stutter.

I am pretty sure with the results I have seen so far (6 DTS attempts) that its a DTS issue that does not occur with DD5. I know a lot of forum members share your view that DTS is not worth keeping because of the size. Unfortunately I am a sound junkie and can DEFINITELY hear the difference even with my modest setup:)

Let me know if you want me to send you any more details on my attempted DTS backups so you can hopefully trace the problem

[brikin]

JDobbs programs come a long way....good job.

I am getting an audio stutter with 0.50a. The DVDs are Kill Bill and X2 with just the DD5.1 soundtracks. This audio stutter only happens on my Panasonic DVD player. It plays fine in my Sony.

Need anything else let me know.

Thanks

[brikin]

I had one more thing to mention about this audio stutter. I only get it on my Panasonic DVD player and it only happens once on kill bill and twice on X2. This is something that does not happen a lot.

[dave88]

Some "stutter" is caused by a player not reading media fast enough, try rewinding and playing the section again, if it does not stutter, it is more likely a media/player issue, and not related to DVDRB

[robgarib]

Do you remember my problem with my philips dvd 612 and the dvds encoded with dvdrb?
Until version 0.48 all disks stop at the beginning of the first chapter and jump directly to the second chapter.
I believed that the problem was fixed but now with version 050.b i have found the same error This error now doesn't occurs with all dvds but only with some titles.
I have encoded "The last Samurai" and "LOTR The return of the king" and everything works fine but with "Paycheck" and "In the cut" the dvd jumps.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by dave88
Some "stutter" is caused by a player not reading media fast enough, try rewinding and playing the section again, if it does not stutter, it is more likely a media/player issue, and not related to DVDRB As much as I'd like to defend DVD-RB... There is a DVD standard for how fast a drive can read, and the peak throughput is determined by that speed and the size of the buffer. Between the two is where the maximum consistent and burst bitrates are calculated.

If you rewind and it plays right the second time. It probably means that DVD-RB has exceeded the standard (probably in bitrate).

A note to everyone on this subject. I just discovered that I had errored in the implementation of the maximum bitrate fix that was included in version 0.50 -- it wasn't being applied to NTSC interlaced sources (which is where it was actually needed). You will see it fixed in version 0.51.


note added: But... if you have a DVD-RB that wasn't written well it is very possible that you might get a "jump" as an error is encountered. Unlike PC drives, standalone players typically do nothing more than standard error correction and if that doesn't work it just ignores the error and plays on. A PC drive will give you an error.

[DVD Maniac]

jdobbs

Have you had a chance to try out some DTS tests with DVD-RB yet? I realise you must be busy with other fixes and improvements but I am hoping you can nail this problem as I have a queue of titles with DTS I want to use DVD-RB for. If you think this is going to be a longish wait for a fix please let me know and I will pursue other backup alternatives when I wish to retain DTS audio

Thanks

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
jdobbs

Have you had a chance to try out some DTS tests with DVD-RB yet? I realise you must be busy with other fixes and improvements but I am hoping you can nail this problem as I have a queue of titles with DTS I want to use DVD-RB for. If you think this is going to be a longish wait for a fix please let me know and I will pursue other backup alternatives when I wish to retain DTS audio

Thanks No, sorry I haven't. Just a question for the reading audience: Are there folks our there who are keeping DTS with no problems?

[The_Flash]

I kept DTS only on my Pitch Black backup. Watched the entire disc through without any problems.

[Noah]

Originally posted by jdobbs
No, sorry I haven't. Just a question for the reading audience: Are there folks our there who are keeping DTS with no problems?
In most cases, I have no problems with DTS. I have had issues with audio dropouts at chapter breaks with DTS.

[insertdisk]

I have had no trouble with DTS on two discs so far -

[brikin]

Even when I rewind I am still getting the audio stutter. I am only keeping the DD track.

[cyberbob25]

I am an extreme newb at this, so please forgive me if I should have posted this in the newbies forum, but it is relevant to this thread.

So far, I have only backed up one movie with RB, that being Runaway Jury. I installed Rebuilder .52, CCE 2.67.00.10 Trial, the current version of ECL, and AVISynth 2.5. I configured everything according the guidelines at afterdawn.com, and this forum. When I configured CCE mode, I set it at CCE SP 2.66+, as it would not encode at all when I had CCE Basic 2.67+ selected. I kept all advanced CCE options at default.

Looking through that status window, it shows that the max bitrate is 7038. I removed all audio streams with the exception of AC3 5.1. When I play this in my Sony DVP-CX985V, the Dolby Digital continually drops. (Works fine with all movies from DVD Shrink)

I haven't had the chance yet to test it in any other DVD player, but I'll post an update after I get home today and check. It seemed to play fine in WinDVD, but I had only tested it there to make sure it loaded up OK. I just wanted to post this to let everybody know that people are still having this problem, and not only with DTS.


EDIT1: Forgot to mention that I was burning this to TDK RW at 4x (I know, not the best media, but worked fine at this speed for Shrink). Burned with latest version of Nero (6 something) using DVD video template.

[topsare]

I have the very same setup as cyberbob25 and I also have audio dropouts. I just did Gladiator(PAL), removed all audio but AC3 5.1 and kept two subtitles.

About two minutes from the beginning of the film there are several audio dropouts. The picture quality, however, is perfect.
I tried to burn it to two different disks but the result was same. Original plays ok and it also plays ok in PowerDVD.

I have a Pioneer DV-444.

[brikin]

JDobbs I ran the DVD created by DVD Rebuilder through Nero Recode 2 and I still get the audio dropouts.....Thought I would let you know.

[Joergen]

Are you all (who get audio dropouts) using digital outputs?

[topsare]

Yes, at least I am using digital output.
The dropouts are short but still clearly noticeable.

[Noah]

Yep, digital out -> receiver.

[brikin]

I am using digital outs also.

[cyberbob25]

I've tried it in two of my DVD players now (Sony, and Pioneer multi-region). The Sony goes through optical out to my receiver, the Pioneer is only composite out. Both experienced the audio dropouts in the same places (seems that it happens when the camera changes, such as when two people are talking, and it switches between the two).

I loaded the encoded files into WinDVD and they played fine (I know that software players are more forgiving). I also played the burned disc on my computer in WinDVD and it played fine.

Alas, I have figured out what was causing it on my end. I was using DVDReMake to strip out extras, trailers, warnings, credits, and production logos. I did a full backup of the disc last night, and this worked fine in all of my DVD players.

Can anybody suggest a program that can be used to strip out all of that stuff safely without causing audio problems in ReBuilder?

[Joergen]

So its digital output AND/OR preprocessing with remake. The first being a legitimate bug and the latter being what a 36$ patch might not even fix ;)

[topsare]

Not so hasty.

I did also some preprocessing with DVDRemake(2.0.1). But after problems I did full backup without any preprocessing and the audio dropouts were still there in the same places.
And the disk that I had problems with played ok with my friend's standalone (ProCaster, 50€).

So the problem, in my opinion, is similar to the problem with the subtitles: most of the players are not so picky and they play the DVD even if it is not exactly according to the DVD standard.

I wonder if the problem could be related to the max bitrate. I will try it again tomorrow with the following settings and let you know it it had any effects to my problem.
[Options]
min_bitrate=300
max_bitrate=8000
[CCEOptions]
VBR_bias=33

Topsare

PS. RB is still the best software around

[cyberbob25]

I too was wondering if my problem was due to bitrate spikes (especially since it seemed to only happen when the camera switches from one view to another). However, during encoding, RB reported that max bitrate was only going to be 7038 (not sure if this takes into account bitrate spikes or not).

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Joergen
So its digital output AND/OR preprocessing with remake. The first being a legitimate bug and the latter being what a 36$ patch might not even fix ;) I don't see how digital output could be related. The data is stored on the disc the same way no matter which output you use (digital or analog). If there were a difference between digital and analog it would almost exclusively have to be the player that was at fault.

I do think there is a problem with audio dropouts, and I think it is related to how DVD-RB makes the decision as to where in the stream (GOP) an audo packet gets added. If you took one of the offending VTSs and ran it through IFOEdit, then reintegrated it (using IFOUpdate) I think you'd see the dropouts go away. I'm working this issue.

[Noah]

Glad to hear you're working on the audio dropouts, jdobbs. Have you been able to reproduce this issue yourself?

[mrslacker]

I use digital output, but I don't see why that would matter either. A dvd player must read the same data even if it is down sampling first to use the analog jacks.

I have been fighting with a video freeze on The Legend of the Drunken Master for a few days now. 56 seconds in on my Sony progressive scan, it will freeze for 10-15 seconds. It is near a scene change and immediately after a bitrate spike according to Bitrate Viewer. I've tried the suggested bitrate options, as well as a spetrum of bias settings (20-45). The bitrate has several peaks above 9000 no mater what the encode settings (above 10000 with bias 20). The DD audio is 448 kbps, which seems high for most AC3 streams. For the sake of extra info, it is a pretty high average bitrate encode, being in the neighborhood of 6Mbps according to the DVD-RB prepare.

Oh, I'm using CCE CP 2.67.0.27 and RB .52 and I've done a couple of dozen movies since v.45 before having this problem. I have also tried this same encode with QuEnc .51 and it freezes in the same spot! The bitrate profile looks similar after all. The only other time I've had freezing video on my stand-alone was with Deer Hunter using vbr bias 20 (its a long movie), and it worked fine at bias 25 (and RB v .49). Can I give any more info to help?

One newbie question: does Bitrate Viewer report video+audio bitrate for vob files or just video?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by Noah
Glad to hear you're working on the audio dropouts, jdobbs. Have you been able to reproduce this issue yourself? I've seen it a couple of times -- so yes, but very rarely.

[onesoul]

I am thninking about the max bitrate being the guilty with the dvd-rb audio droput but I am not sure. I did a backup of an avi file (progressive 23.976 ntsc) (not using dvd-rb) with cce 2.67.00.27 and although I set the max bitrate to 9000, with bitrate viewer it would reach 9300 b/s, no problems there but the weird part comes now, after applying pulldown on the encoded video, bitrate viewer shows a peak of 10390 b/s. (Nominal bitrate information doesn't change to what I set in cce, in this example 9000 b/s)

My questions, is bitrate viewer reliable and why max bitrate change after pulldown?

[Joergen]

Digital output is NOT always the same as analog. There are copy protection schemes for digital output/input and if the decoder thinks that the input signal is copy protected momentarily it will cut playback. I read something similar relating to DVD Shrink. At least Sony amplifiers report about the copy protection on the front display.

I think its mainly to prevent recording from a store-bought MiniDisc album.

[Joergen]

Originally posted by onesoul
My questions, is bitrate viewer reliable and why max bitrate change after pulldown?

Doesnt bitrate viewer think it is processing 29 or 25fps material? Hence the 20% increase with 23fps material.

[cyberbob25]

After my problems the last few days with the Dolby Digital dropping out in Runaway Jury (as per previous posts, it works if I backup entire movie), I decided to try a different movie.

This time, I edited out all extra content (with DVDReMake once again)in Catch Me If You Can (all warnings, 2 of the 3 redundant menus, and the longest opening credits of any movie I have ever seen) leaving about 7.3 GB of movie (Runaway Jury was just over 5 after stripping).

Using rebuilder, I stripped out all soundtracks but DTS, and this disc works fine (at least no dropouts in the first 15 minutes).

I just wanted to add this so that we know that there is no definitive problem with DTS as others have previously posted, and that DVDReMake isn't the definitive problem either.

[DVD Maniac]

I am still experiencing Audio Drop outs on my latest attempts (but the video freeze ups and stuttering appears to have been fixed). Originally I was only finding this with DTS audio but now I am definitely getting audio drop out on DD5 as well

Examples (PAL - Interlaced)

Master and Commander - DTS
Intolerable Creulty - DTS / DD5
Paycheck - DD5

Random audio drop out at seemingly unimportant points in the film (ie not chapter points or high video bit rate / complex video scences).

All episode based backups with DD5/2 appear to work fine - just movies that experience the problem - hope this helps with the problem solving jdobbs!

[Joergen]

If I remember correctly, even the ORIGINAL of master and commander PAL has slight audio dropouts.. have you checked? Another one that has odd digital audio squirk/compacting is Love Actually PAL.

[topsare]

I did the test I mentioned earlier (max_bitrate=8000...) and it really had some effect. There is a point in the very beginning of the film before the big fight where before there were two dropouts; one longer and one shorter. Now there is only one short.

I hope this helps tracking the cause.

[onesoul]

Originally posted by Joergen
Doesnt bitrate viewer think it is processing 29 or 25fps material? Hence the 20% increase with 23fps material.

I think it is a consequence of the pulldown flags that duplicate certain frames (2:3) so it would explain the increased bitrate. I did the encode with the following settings: 1 pass vbr, Q:21, min:0 max:8000 b/s, iqp: 16. It is ntsc 23,976 with pulldown flags with ac3 448 kb/s. I then watched the result at my set top dvd player which displays current bit rate and at many points it reaches 10 mbps. So maybe it would be better to use 8000 b/s as max setting with cce to be inside dvd standards. What do you think jdobbs?

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by onesoul
I think it is a consequence of the pulldown flags that duplicate certain frames (2:3) so it would explain the increased bitrate. I did the encode with the following settings: 1 pass vbr, Q:21, min:0 max:8000 b/s, iqp: 16. It is ntsc 23,976 with pulldown flags with ac3 448 kb/s. I then watched the result at my set top dvd player which displays current bit rate and at many points it reaches 10 mbps. So maybe it would be better to use 8000 b/s as max setting with cce to be inside dvd standards. What do you think jdobbs? But the DVD standard allows 9800Kbs for video and can legally burst even higher (over 10Mbs)... that's why the max is set to 9000, to be safe. I would have to make the assumption that CCE can be off on its max bitrate by over 8% in order to come to the conclusion that 9000Kbs was too high. Based on the accuracy of CCE's other settings I have to believe that isn't the problem.

I'm a realist and always first assume that it is my code causing the problem until I prove otherwise. I'm still inclined to believe it is the way I'm interleaving the audio and video streams that is causing this.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by topsare
I did the test I mentioned earlier (max_bitrate=8000...) and it really had some effect. There is a point in the very beginning of the film before the big fight where before there were two dropouts; one longer and one shorter. Now there is only one short.

I hope this helps tracking the cause. This is more probably because the video is now a different size and therefore is interleaved differently. Not "positively", but "probably"

[onesoul]

jdobbs you missed the part that after pulldown it would achieve higher bitrate, this last encode I did was at (cce) max: 8000 b/s and it would reach 9447 b/s, video alone, with bitrate viewer. I did the same encode before at max 9000 b/s and after pulldown it would reach 10390 b/s.

So the the 10 (audio 448kbps included) mbps bitrate I saw at my stand alone player was the one which I encoded with cce max of 8000 b/s. If I had used the encoding that would reach 10390 b/s it would be very close to the 10.08 mbps standard limits of DVD. Don't forget to add audio bitrate of 448kbps to the bitrates video alone and adding another audio track would definitely pass DVD standards.

I did these encodes 1 pass vbr out of dvd-rb but I think it applies here too.
I would only suggest a lower max bitrate encoding (like 8000b/s which btw is the default used by dvd2dvd) to ntsc backup that requires pulldown flags. Pal isn't affected.

Hope I was clear to what I tried to say.

Cheers

[Noah]

I'm not sure Bitrate Viewer is always entirely accurate. I've been using it to check my encodes ever since the stutter issue cropped up, and sometimes it appears to be an accurate indicator of bitrate peaks that translate into stutter, and other times not. I.E., BV may show peaks of 10600k that result in stutter on one disc and peaks of 10600k that don't stutter on another.

Nevertheless, it has been my experience that CCE will produce bitrate peaks (according to Bitrate Viewer) that exceed the max bitrate specified with progressive/24fps as well as interlaced/30fps sources.

Still, its simple enough to lower the limit to compensate (when I remember ;) ), and I've eliminated bitrate as a potential factor in the audio dropout problem, which I consider to be the most serious issue I have with Rebuilder at the moment.

[brikin]

I agree with Noah. I just re-did my problem DVD and set the max bitrate to 5000. Using Bitrate Viewer I do not get any spikes over 5600 and I still get the audio stutter when I play the DVD. JDobbs sounds like he is on the right track.

[DDogg]

Noah, the beta version of DVDLav Pro available here (http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/historypro.html) has what seems to be a very accurate bitrate viewer tool avaialable in the tools menu. Also, it is very fast.

It has been a real eye opener for me. The amount of spikes far above the max bitrate set in CCE is very unsettling. My old Apex has a problem with these spikes and the glitches do show exactly where the spikes are. You can see where to compare as this tool allows you to see the frame/s that corresponds to the spike. Very handy. Whether the actual number of the spike shown by the tool is accurate I don't know, but where it shows a high spike is where my Apex glitches.

It seems like I have to drop my MAX down to 6000-7000 to avoid these problems on the Apex. My newer players do not have this problem so maybe I'll just junk it. Seems like my son's PS2 also has a few problems with spikes, but I have not pinned it down enough to really say.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by DDogg
Noah, the beta version of DVDLav Pro available here (http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/historypro.html) has what seems to be a very accurate bitrate viewer tool avaialable in the tools menu. Also, it is very fast.

It has been a real eye opener for me. The amount of spikes far above the max bitrate set in CCE is very unsettling. My old Apex has a problem with these spikes and the glitches do show exactly where the spikes are. You can see where to compare as this tool allows you to see the frame/s that corresponds to the spike. Very handy. Whether the actual number of the spike shown by the tool is accurate I don't know, but where it shows a high spike is where my Apex glitches.

It seems like I have to drop my MAX down to 6000-7000 to avoid these problems on the Apex. My newer players do not have this problem so maybe I'll just junk it. Seems like my son's PS2 also has a few problems with spikes, but I have not pinned it down enough to really say. I wonder if this is happening on all versions of CCE or only a couple???? If worse comes to worst I can always set the default maximum lower -- but it may have a negative affect on picture quality.

[onesoul]

If bitrate viewer is accurate or not I don't know for sure but those kind of bitrates (plus audio) are reached by actual bitrate display of my stand alone (toshiba sd210e).

[DDogg]

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3581/Q19-100-7000.jpg

These are very prelimary comments, but it seems as if the spikes are always no more than 2k over the Max. I did encodes at Max 6000,7000,8000 and 9000. Each time the bitrate viewer in DVDLab showed spikes about 2k more than the max. So, if this is true, then setting 7000 as Max effectively gives you a 9000 Max. Sounds nuts to me though.

The image posted above is from CCE 2.67.00.27 OPV 19 100Min-7000Max.

DvdLabs BR viewer shows peak at 7915 but when the cursor is moved to the single line peaks, it shows 8961. This problem seems worse on OPV, but multipass stills shows the problem to a lesser degree.

I think I'll shift to 7000 as Max for a while and see how that works on the old Apex. Btw, my tests were done using straight CCE. DVD-Rb was not involved. It seems to be a CCE specific problem.

[onesoul]

I tried the bitrate viewer of dvd lab pro (nice program btw) with the encoded video I mentioned earlier (opv max:8000 min:0) and although it appears a peak of 8594 kbps, with the cursor I find 10020kbps (same thing that happened to DDogg), my toshiba corroborates this as I mentioned before.

I'd like to emphasize that the increased bitrate happens after pulldown so cce isn't really doing a bad job. With pal this problem doesn't occur. So imo there's only need to reduce max bitrate with progressive video that needs pulldown (23,976fps film -> 29,97fps ntsc destination). (With interlaced sources dvd-rb already reduces the max bitrate for other reasons.)

[DVD Maniac]

If I remember correctly, even the ORIGINAL of master and commander PAL has slight audio dropouts.. have you checked? Another one that has odd digital audio squirk/compacting is Love Actually PAL.

Thanks for the tip Joergen, although I did not find audio drop out on the original and believe me, my Phillips set-top will find even the slightest mastering errors! Shrink did the backup with DTS with no audio drop probs so I still think this is a problem related to the way Rebuilder is re-muxing the audio and video streams (as jdobbs has mentioned).

I have run all my failed (audio drop out) Rebuilder attempts through bitrate viewer and I can see no definitive correlation between bit rate spikes and the audio drop outs. They appear to occur randomly and do not coincide witn Chapter points or complex video scenes.

As posted previously, episode based sources with DD2 and DD5 audio tracks have performed consistently well with Rebuilder - I just don't understand why?????

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by onesoul
I tried the bitrate viewer of dvd lab pro (nice program btw) with the encoded video I mentioned earlier (opv max:8000 min:0) and although it appears a peak of 8594 kbps, with the cursor I find 10020kbps (same thing that happened to DDogg), my toshiba corroborates this as I mentioned before.

I'd like to emphasize that the increased bitrate happens after pulldown so cce isn't really doing a bad job. With pal this problem doesn't occur. So imo there's only need to reduce max bitrate with progressive video that needs pulldown (23,976fps film -> 29,97fps ntsc destination). (With interlaced sources dvd-rb already reduces the max bitrate for other reasons.) If what you are saying is true, than this may not even really be a problem. The DVD standard (9.8Mbs for video and 10.08Mbs total) is at the level it is because of the 1x spin speed of the disc and buffer space used in reading from the disc. It only applies to the video as it is stored, not as it is interpreted. Since the 2:3 pulldown is applied after the disc is read, the apparent "illegal" bitrate probably doesn't really exist or apply. This is the very reason you can get better quality on a FILM based source than a standard NTSC source.

This kind of question should be aimed at one of the true DVD geniuses like MPUCODER. He has a lot better understanding of the standards than most.

I'd say the best test would be to run this maximum bitrate test against some DVD masters that have pulldown applied. My guess is they might fail also.

[DDogg]

Original video stream - So much for my theory as this will play fine on the Apex. Now I am even more confused.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1589/Original.jpg

[jdobbs]

I'm still guessing it's an audio/video interleaving problem. I need to get up off my ass and fix it. I've been inundated with the paying job for the past couple of weeks and its putting a real limitation on my rebuilder coding.

[onesoul]

jdobbs, you are right! I tried bitrate viewer with prince of egypt ntsc and in one vob (which I didn't wait to go all the way) would reach 11196 max.

Sorry for trying to push my wrong point of view :o
But hey, we're only human :)

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by onesoul
jdobbs, you are right! I tried bitrate viewer with prince of egypt ntsc and in one vob (which I didn't wait to go all the way) would reach 11196 max.

Sorry for trying to push my wrong point of view :o
But hey, we're only human :) Lord knows this project has proven that I'm anything but perfect... it's been quite humbling actually. ;)

[JDay]

I brought this up about month ago, and the problem still persists, so I'm bringing this up again. It's not entirely clear whether this is a problem with DVD-RB or QuEnc (or both) if this is definitely only a QuEnc issue, I'll bring it over there. Anyway, if you encode progressive film source (23.976 fps) with quenc, the playback will be very jerky on some standalones and Media Player Classic. This does not occur with with 23.976 interlaced content. This appears to have something to do with the prog_seq flag. If you set the prog_seq flag to interlaced before rebuild, the result comes out fine (and if you set the flag to progressive on a cce encode, you get the same jerkiness after rebuild). This may be a case of QuEnc just messing up the flags but shouldn't RB set these flags (like it does for the prog_frame flags), rather than just passing them from the encoded files?

Edit: There's a thread with some more discussion here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75923).

[wmansir]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, but jdobbs informs me that the video/audio stuttering have been resolved as of v0.52 (aside from the QueEnc issue), but a problem with audio dropouts still remains. So, I'm going to close the original bug listing in the known issues thread and start a new one on audio dropouts.

Of course with burn errors, incompatible media, ect audio/video stuttering is an ever present error in DVD backup. So I fully expect to see more reports of this.

[DVD Maniac]

Reading the changelog for the latest release (v53a) I do not see any reference to the audio drop issue so I am ssuming this is still being worked on? Happy to try the latest version with my problem title's if there have been changes made which might fix this issue.

[JDay]

Jdobbs, could you please comment on the QuEnc issue mentioned a few posts up? I think that's the last real issue preventing QuEnc from being really usable (except the ratecontrol, maybe we could add a QuEnc maxbitrate option?).

[DVD Maniac]

I see v.054 is out but no mention of a fix for audio stutter which is rather dissapointing. I am getting this problem in most of my attempts with Rebuilder and reading the posts others are too. What is the priority for fixing this problem as I believe it to be quite a serious flaw in what could be the best backup app available!

[Undead Sega]

i get this problem as well when encoding an MPEG 2 from a lossless avi.

i mean, when i do it from movies, even blu ray sources downconverting them to DVd res into a lossless avi, and then taking that into a CBR (oviously just below 9800KBS) MPEG 2 file, it works fine, but when i do it from a DVd recorded show and do post processing into a lossless avi and then back into CBR MPEG 2, it stutters.

for this, i did experiments, and when i compile it in DVDLAB Pro without audio, it works nicely, but when i add the audio track afterwards, just under a minute it all goes messy.

dont start blaming the CBR encoding, cause i know that has nothing to do with it, i dont understand why it is doing this.

does anyone know?

[jdobbs]

I guess I don't know how that is related to DVD-RB? Did you mean to post in an different forum?

[Undead Sega]

well it was to dow ith the video stuttering that i am STILL getting, and i saw this due to the keywords of DVDLab Pro.