Best video editor?

[dea]

Hi!
I've looked at old threads briefly and I can't seem to find a nice answer on my really easy (even though individual) question -
what type of video editing program can you recommend?
I'm in a planning stage of creating, not my first, but my most advanced DVD so far. So - what I need is a editor for editing mpeg/avi videos like cutting, some nice transactions effects and so on..


Thanks in advance!

/Andreas

[Arky]

lol - no wonder you have had few replies - you state that yours is a 'simple' question, and indeed it is, at first glance. However, it is actually an extremely thorny issue and NLEs are very much a matter of personal taste as well as technical ability. I personally favour Pinnacle Liquid Edition, but this will not edit MPEG - it is DV only (unless you go further up the range).

As far as I am aware, Adobe Premiere, when used with the PRO version of MainConcept's MPEG encoder, can edit MPEG on the timeline. Similarly, Ulead's Media Studio Pro had long held this capability. My personal recommendation, though, if you must edit MPEG (never a good idea, really, since it is a lossy format, without fully-self-sufficient frames at every frame boundary), would be to take a long hard look at what Canopus Edius Version 2 has to offer. There is a fairly comprehensive review of this program in the current edition of Computer Video Magazine (http://www.computervideo.net/june04-1.html).


Arky ;o)

[rfmmars]

This is what I use MEP2004. You can forget Vegas, Adobe Premire. You can frame serve 14 or more copies of Virtualdubmpeg2 plus frame serve Avisynth to Virtualdub to MEP2004, use the super NEP2004 edit program, and burn a DVD all in one operation. What takes hours in others, takes only minutes in MEP2004. All for $99.95 US

www.magix.com

Below in a preview of MEP2005 which is avalable in Europe now.

http://support.magix.net/boards/magix/index.php?showtopic=12314

richard
www.photorecall.net

[nicco]

I use premiere pro, powerful!:p

[Neoze]

Is there any nle whose input could be an avisynth script?

I have a bundled pinnacle studio, but pinnacle could not read avs file. ->only Dv file.
Thanks for your experience (and sorry for bad english)

[nicco]

In Premiere you can not import directly an avs script becouse prem imports only avi files, but you can make a fake-avi of your avs script(for example with MakeAvi which come with ffvfw codec) and then import your fake-avi into premiere!;)

[Neoze]

-> nicco
Thanks for your response. :)
I will have a look on this trick. I'll post a reply if studio can import such file.

But have you ever tried this with another Nle? (premiere is difficult to begin in video)

[nicco]

I work only with Premiere (Pro), and it's not so difficult, try it!
Fake-avi are "avi files" so I think all apps could open it....

[Neoze]

It run :D

I have make a fake avi with makeAVIS.exe from(ffvfw)
This file can be played with media player.
Studio open the file, I got a windows telling "scene detection" but nothing more happen. The project is allways empty

After reading this thread
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=47194&highlight=avs+nle

I have made an another fakeavi (it take more time to complete and the file is bigger) but studio can read it.
After scene detection I have got the script in the timeline. :D

Thanks a lot, this forum is brilliant.

[nicco]

I have make a fake avi with makeAVIS.exe from(ffvfw)
This file can be played with media player.
Studio open the file, I got a windows telling "scene detection" but nothing more happen. The project is allways empty

I told you it works with premiere, I didn't know about other apps... now I know...
:cool:
Bye

[Neoze]

Yes it seem that premiere and vegas can read all 3 forms of pseudo AVI -makeavis -link2 from www.videotools.ne and VFAPIConv.
Studio is far more poor.

[swinokur]

Hi,
I thought I would throw in a plug for Womble's "Mpeg Video Wizard."

I've been using it for some months to do cuts only editing on HD streams (720p and 1080i mainly). It works well, and the company has been *really* repsonsive to bug reports, often giving me a new version to test a couple days after I find something that doesn't work well.

It has lots of other features (effects and titling and so forth) that I haven't really used, and while I know that they're there, I can't say for sure what it's like to use them.

Oh, and it can read/write/convert mpeg-2 program and transport.

their website is www.womble.com

[trolltuning]

Originally posted by swinokur
Hi,
I thought I would throw in a plug for Womble's "Mpeg Video Wizard."
{snipped}

It has lots of other features (effects and titling and so forth) that I haven't really used, and while I know that they're there, I can't say for sure what it's like to use them.

Oh, and it can read/write/convert mpeg-2 program and transport.

their website is www.womble.com

I made a VCD and ran out of time to make title effects with AviSynth so I used Womble transition blend. First time was terrible- because I was changing the settings over and over. Should have paid attention to what Avery said with the early releases of Virtual Dub. Once I started clean with the right setting I got rid of most of the macro blocks, but 3 of the 24 people (no copyright violation- we shot this ourselves) still reported macro blocks on the blended transitions at the end of the VCD.

[xjapan]

Pinnacle Studio 9 is good but have many limitations when the video is Divx and Xvid:
+ Do not support MP3
+ Some codecs unsupported
+ Few options of video size
But when the video is MPG every function is good, the transitions between video too.

About the other video editors
Adobe Premiere
Sony Vegas
Ulead VideoStudio
CyberLink PowerDirector,
someone have used any of this programs?
I want to know if this programs do transitions in the video and if they support MP3...

PS: Sorry the bad english.... lol

Thanks

[MGRip]

Adobe Premiere Pro is the best!
A LOT better from AVID in my opinion.

Take a look at mine last project at premiere (title in Adobe AE): http://magin.butbul.net/videos/adias.htm

[Arky]

Originally posted by Arky
I personally favour Pinnacle Liquid Edition, but this will not edit MPEG - it is DV only (unless you go further up the range).


Update - Liquid version 6 will now edit mixed codec footage on the same timeline (including MPEG). The overall editing power now on offer in this program is virtually unmatched:

http://www.dilithium.com.au/edition/6/whats_new_le6.htm

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/docloaderplain.asp?templ=74&Category_id=2&doclink=/liquidedition6/liquid6_landingpage_7.html&Langue_ID=7


Arky ;o)

[echooff]

@ Arky

You're the first person I've runacross so far using Liquid. I take it by your comments you really like it. I have been a Studio user for year and own Studio 9. In your opinion is it worth the upgrade price to move to Liquid? Does it retain most of the feel of studio?

[Arky]

Hi echooff, in answer to your question, Liquid is a TOTALLY different editor to Studio. In fact, the interface is different, in certain (positive, IMHO) aspects, to virtually every other NLE on the face of the planet. However, this is by design, not by accident. Basically, many of the functions you would expect to find in drop down menus at the top of the screen are, in Liquid's case, available to the editor by right-clicking in the area related to the function you wish to employ at that moment - in other words, the function menus are perfectly context-sensitive and you need not search through 'generalised' menus in order to find the function you require, amongst a muddle of irrelevant options.

As you are well aware, the market leader in NLE has long been Avid. Well, Fast DV Studio (which evolved, under Pinnacle's ownership, into what you now see as Liquid) was explicitly conceived, and designed, as a direct competitor to the Avid interface. It was designed to bring greater speed, efficiency, and flexibility to the industry standard pro-level interface of Avid's offerings, while offering as much, or more, underlying power. Although Avid still has much to offer (I particularly like the way it can, in conjunction with the Elastic Gasket plugin, directly harness the power of After Effects filters, although Liquid's 'X-send' feature almost matches this capability), Fast did a good job of realising their original competitive aims, and this is why the interface is so radically different in operation to any other NLE, although it does, of course, retain many familiar conventions, such as the familiar style of timeline, with audio and video tracks clearly displayed in parallel.

Having said that, what is interesting (for potential new users rather than for experienced Liquid editors) is that Liquid 6 now offers a new skin that incorporates menus at the top of the screen, in order to ease the transition from, say, Premiere, to Liquid, for potential new customers. Experienced Liquid editors are still (mercifully) provided the option of using the 'Classic' Liquid interface/skin.



There are just so many reasons why I love Liquid, but the sheer power, efficiency, and finesse of the system, and the quality of the rendering are, broadly-speaking, my reasons for enjoying it so much.

You may find the competition saying they can beat it on this feature, or that, but I have never seen such a well-rounded, powerful, and effective featureset as this, for sensible money (and, as any level-headed individual knows, ALL NLEs have their pros, cons, and bugs, so I assume that as a given, in this discussion).

Considering my glowing remarks above, I guess I should own some of their stock, but I assure you, I do not! ;)


Arky ;o)

[echooff]

Thank you for you input. You have given me much to think about and explore.

[smok3]

arky: iam using liquid 5.5 for some time now as well (not so i choose it, it was just installed on my new job machine), anyway the question:

how do you handle annoying seemstobeRGBonly pinnacle dv codec?

(i usually dont do any vertical stuff, i just use it for final-cut of material imported from after effects or similar to avoid dv generations...)

[Arky]

Originally posted by smok3
arky: iam using liquid 5.5 for some time now as well (not so i choose it, it was just installed on my new job machine), anyway the question:

how do you handle annoying seemstobeRGBonly pinnacle dv codec?

(i usually dont do any vertical stuff, i just use it for final-cut of material imported from after effects or similar to avoid dv generations...)

To be quite honest with you, I've always been extremely happy with the quality of my renders (all of which are auto-rendered, as I edit), and have never encountered any significant artifacting on the basis of colourspace (I have consequently never felt the need to explicitly investigate the default render settings, although, of course, I would do so if I ever encountered any related artifacts, in future). I 'X-send' the finished timeline(s) to Cinemacraft, for MPEG encoding for subsequent DVD authoring in DVD SP 3/TFDVDEdit, on the Mac. What is your final output format? Do you have any specific issues?

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/view_thread.php?threadid=407270&forumid=125&postid=106450346371748&archive=_2003|3|2


Arky ;o)



In the meantime, if you would like to investigate render settings, then I suggest you look under Liquid's own 'Control Panel', go to FX Editor Properties, and click on 'Advanced'. However, my installation was set, by default, to YUV colourspace, anyway:

[smok3]

specific issue would be chroma artifacts, my final format is mjpeg, now i have to go over vdub dv decoder so that the colors look fine. ill dig into those settings a bit, tnx.

[MrTVideo]

I use Studio 8 and AVIsynth for the special effects. For home video editing I can create great movies and the DC10 capture card allows output to tape. I have tried Premiere, Media Studio and do not think you can final assemble as fast as Studio. I do have a copy of Media Studio 2.5a which allows moving path and 99 tracks.

[vasudev71]

Hi,

I would like to convert NTSC DV to DVD and I have been a active contributor up to 2003 and I have jumped again in the conversion process.

In a matter of 1 year or more, things have changed a lot. We have fast machines, exceptional NLE editors (e.g) Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5, Pinnacle Liquid Pro 6.0 etc. to mention a few.

I always wanted to work in the native NTSC DV color space which is YUV 4:1:1. I dont' want to go thru the process of converting my original YUV color space DV to RGB and back again to YUV when enoding it to MPEG-2 for DVD.

What I discovered, is Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 now works in AYUV color space and thats very good.

Hi Arky, does Pinnacle Liquid Pro 5.5/6.0 also work in YUV color space? Based on your previous posts, I saw a figure that shows YUV as a option in the FX editor. How different is this from Premiere Pro since Premiere Pro works in AYUV (Alpha Channel + YUV). Does Liquid Pro 5.5/6.0 also work in AYUV or YUV or RGB?

I still don't understand when you said that you 'X-Send' to CCE for MPEG-2 DVD encoding? Can you explain me the route on how you achieved it? Are you using Avisynth for the frameserving? If yes, does it work in YUV color space?

Also, more importantly, I always care about two things: quality and speed. My DVD output should be identical to the original NTSC DV source. The reason being, I have a Canon GL1 which is a 3 CCD camcorder and as you know well 3CCD is always at its best when compared to single CCD camcorder.

Is Pinnacle Liquid Pro faster than Adobe Premiere Pro?
I'm thinking of buying a AMD Atlon 64 DTR laptop for this work.

With respect to the timestamp of any DV source, I would like to burn it on top of my video before editing in NLE. I'm not talking about tiemcode but datacode (timestamp of the video shot).

I know for sure Adobe Premiere Pro has support for 3rd party plugins:
Take a look at this URL:
http://www.skydiver.de/stef/datecode_en.htm

Does Pinnacle Liquid Pro 5.5/6.0 has a plugin/effect that supports timestamp burn-in feature? If not, based on the above URL, can I use it from Pinnacle Liquid Pro 5.5/6.0?


Appreciate your replies.

Rgds,

VS

[Arky]

Originally posted by vasudev71
...does Pinnacle Liquid Pro 5.5/6.0 also work in YUV color space? Based on your previous posts, I saw a figure that shows YUV as a option in the FX editor.



AFAIK, when editing DV, Liquid operates as standard, in YUV mode.




Originally posted by vasudev71
...
I still don't understand when you said that you 'X-Send' to CCE for MPEG-2 DVD encoding? Can you explain me the route on how you achieved it? Are you using Avisynth for the frameserving? If yes, does it work in YUV color space?



I do not use AVIsynth to do this. If I have a particularly complex timeline, I 'Fuse' the timeline to create an AVI file, which I then feed to CCE in the standard manner. However, if I have only simple cuts on my timeline, then I can 'X-send' directly to CCE, which saves a little time and disk space. I am not absolutely certain how X-send works, but I believe it uses an element of Quicktime Architecture in order to accomplish 'X-send' (including 'X-sending' to After Effects). CCE appears to support this method of 'communication' between programs, whereas other encoders, in my attempts, do not (e.g. TMPGEnc and ProCoder). To be honest, though, this really isn't a major issue - Liquid renders everything while you edit, so generally, everything is already rendered by the time you need to encode to MPEG, so it is very easy, assuming you have enough diskspace, to simply 'Fuse' to a single AVI file and encode this fused file in the normal way. In either case, at no point is it necessary for me to have, or use, AVIsynth.




Originally posted by vasudev71
...
Also, more importantly, I always care about two things: quality and speed. My DVD output should be identical to the original NTSC DV source. The reason being, I have a Canon GL1 which is a 3 CCD camcorder and as you know well 3CCD is always at its best when compared to single CCD camcorder.


As I said, I have always been very satisfied with the output from Liquid + CCE/ProCoder, and, in fact, have not seen better results from anything in this market sector. The speed, of course, it just stunning - faster than realtime (per pass) on a recent machine.




Originally posted by vasudev71
...
Is Pinnacle Liquid Pro faster than Adobe Premiere Pro?
I'm thinking of buying a AMD Atlon 64 DTR laptop for this work.



If you intend to use CCE on an AMD 64, then you might care to read this thread:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83197




Originally posted by vasudev71
...
With respect to the timestamp of any DV source, I would like to burn it on top of my video before editing in NLE. I'm not talking about tiemcode but datacode (timestamp of the video shot).

I know for sure Adobe Premiere Pro has support for 3rd party plugins:
Take a look at this URL:
http://www.skydiver.de/stef/datecode_en.htm

Does Pinnacle Liquid Pro 5.5/6.0 has a plugin/effect that supports timestamp burn-in feature? If not, based on the above URL, can I use it from Pinnacle Liquid Pro 5.5/6.0?




Not sure about this one, sorry. It may be that Liquid already has this feature in its toolset, but I've never used it or gone looking for this feature, if, indeed, it does exist in the toolset. On a more general note, I will admit that Pinnacle have never been particularly forthcoming about plugin architecture / SDKs. Having said that, it is possible to use Boris FX/RED from within the Liquid, in order to gain access to Adobe-compatible plugins. Alternatively, you could X-send to After Effects and use the plugin from within that environment before returning to Liquid's interface. Incidentally, Liquid 6 does now include VST audio plugin support, which is great, and also includes a rather nice 'Multi-Cam' feature, which users have been demanding for a long time.

Sorry it's not a perfect answer, but I hope this helps a little.

Lastly, here's another brief run-down of Liquid 6's new features:

http://www.dvc.uk.com/products/lev3.php?subnav=software&lev1=pinnaclesoftware&lev2=edition&lev3=el6


Regards,


Arky ;o)

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

Thanks for your previous feedback. very helpful.

Few questions again based on your feedback:

I do not use AVIsynth to do this. If I have a particularly complex timeline, I 'Fuse' the timeline to create an AVI file, which I then feed to CCE in the standard manner. However, if I have only simple cuts on my timeline, then I can 'X-send' directly to CCE, which saves a little time and disk space.

My question here is, when you 'Fuse' the timeline to create a AVI file and open it up in standalone CCE, do you lose quality slightly or there is absolutely no generation loss?

What do you mean by this: for basic cuts, you X-Send directly to CCE? why not for other things like transistions, effects etc?

I have a idea: Since Premiere Pro has 3rd party timestamp plugin, can I import the fused AVI in Premiere Pro timeline, apply the timestamp plugin, frameserve to CCE from within Premiere Pro? I guess you know that Premiere Pro works in AYUV and Liquid works in YUV. Will this create a problem if I open up the fused AVI from Premiere Pro?

Before I do this, can you do me a favor?
Can you open up your fused AVI (contained in complex timeline) in Scenalyzer Live, see if it can read your timestamp information from your AVI file. If it can read, then excellent.

Other thing is why do you always X-Send to CCE? Why not directly render the timeline completely from within Liquid?

Appreciate your replies.

VS

[Arky]

Originally posted by vasudev71

I do not use AVIsynth to do this. If I have a particularly complex timeline, I 'Fuse' the timeline to create an AVI file, which I then feed to CCE in the standard manner. However, if I have only simple cuts on my timeline, then I can 'X-send' directly to CCE, which saves a little time and disk space.

My question here is, when you 'Fuse' the timeline to create a AVI file and open it up in standalone CCE, do you lose quality slightly or there is absolutely no generation loss?





Fusing the timeline simply means using a 'Copy' function to generate a self-contained version of the (auto-rendered) smart-rendered sequence (remember that a timeline sequence is actually a pictorial representation of several seperate captured clips, arranged together. Only after a 'Fuse', or a final render into the output format of your choosing, will this representation be converted into a single file that plays back the same as the pictorially-represented timeline sequence). In other words, when you refer to generational losses, during a 'Fuse' operation, rendering does need to occur where effects have been applied (obviously!), but those sections of the original clips which have not had any effects applied are not actually 're-rendered' - they are left alone and simply copied over as part of the new Fused file. There is never any unnecessary/unjustifiedrendering. I hope this makes sense. :)




Originally posted by vasudev71

What do you mean by this: for basic cuts, you X-Send directly to CCE? why not for other things like transistions, effects etc?





Good question. What follows, is directly quoted from page 15-35 of the Liquid 5.5 manual:

"Objects permitted for the 'X-send To' Function:

With 'X-send To', you can send single clips (both from the project and from the timeline), multiple clips, a complete sequence, and containers (nested items) to an application. Transitions (such as Dissolves and Cross-Fades) and clip effects are not considered to be objects. Optionally, however, you can use the Fuse function to transfer a particular effect (i.e. as a rendered Media File)"





Originally posted by vasudev71

I have a idea: Since Premiere Pro has 3rd party timestamp plugin, can I import the fused AVI in Premiere Pro timeline, apply the timestamp plugin, frameserve to CCE from within Premiere Pro? I guess you know that Premiere Pro works in AYUV and Liquid works in YUV. Will this create a problem if I open up the fused AVI from Premiere Pro?





To be honest, I am not certain. The best thing would be to try this, yourself. I'm afraid I can't assist you by trying for you, because I do not currently use Win XP and therefore do not have Premiere Pro installed.




Originally posted by vasudev71

...can you do me a favor?
Can you open up your fused AVI (contained in complex timeline) in Scenalyzer Live, see if it can read your timestamp information from your AVI file. If it can read, then excellent.





Ok, I don't currently use Scenalyzer, but give me a little time, and I'll see what I can do.





Originally posted by vasudev71

Other thing is why do you always X-Send to CCE? Why not directly render the timeline completely from within Liquid?




As I said, sometimes it's just quick and convenient to send a clip or two directly to CCE, via X-send, and it saves a little space. It's no big deal, but it's nice to be able to do this when it is appropriate. Other times, with a project full of effects and dissolves/crossfades, then Fusing everything into a single AVI and import ths into CCE manually gives me a swift and robust workflow, with excellent results.


If you wish to know why I do not simply use Liquid's integrated MPEG encoder, then this is because of speed and quality. It's not that Liquid's own MPEG encoder is poor (far from it, actually), it's just that it is nowhere near as fast as CCE (but then, to be fair, very few encoders can match CCE's speed). I also feel that CCE beats it on outright image quality, but again, this is more a reflection of CCE's astounding ability, than a reflection of inadequacy on the part of Liquid's encoder.

However, if you wish to use Liquid's integrated DVD authoring capabilities (and there are, for most users, some very compelling reasons for doing so - paste these URLs into your browser, or into MediaPlayer 9):

mms://wvs1.pinnaclesys.com/PBN/movies/BasicDVDauthoringHigh.wmv

mms://wvs1.pinnaclesys.com/PBN/movies/AdvancedDVDauthoringHigh.wmv

...then you will need to rely on Liquid's integrated MPEG encoder, which is fine, and yields quite reasonable results. I myself rather like the ease with which DVDs can be created within Liquid, but I am dissatisfied with the lack of control over domain placement of assets (Navigation command structure would be no issue for me, since I can use TFDVDEdit, on the Mac, to re-author this, after compiling the project to a finished VIDEO_TS). Many Liquid users would never need such a high level of control over assets/domains, and so they can go ahead and do everything from within the Liquid environment, which is great.


For me, the closest I can currently get to perfection, is to capture and edit my Dv footage, using Liquid, on the PC, then encode to MPEG 2 using CCE, transfer these MPEG video assets (and Liquid-exported .wav audio files) to my Powerbook, via firewire HDD, encode my .wav files to ac3 using A-pack, import the .ac3 and MPEG 2 assets into DVD SP 3 (still menus can be created in Photoshop, either on the PC or the Mac, I'm not fussy!), author my menus, subtitles, cell markers, Button Over Video etc. multiplex to a VIDEO_TS folder, and then finally use TFDVDEdit to author any desired PGCs and to create nice efficient navigation commands (and complex scripting, if required). It may sound like a difficult workflow, but it's actually smooth as silk and the results are top-notch. I can retain full control over my authoring and I can keep image quality to a very high level.

Remember, I'm only relating all of this to you because you asked my reasons for using CCE! :D


HTH.


Arky ;o)

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

Excellent reply.

You know what...? For the past 1 month, my mind is liking PowerBook G4 and its great to hear that you do your video editing on Mac.

Since, you said you use Mac, why don't you use Final Cut Pro 4.5 HD to do your rendering? I understand CCE's quality is exceptional. But, since you are on Mac, you would have definitely tried Final Cut Pro 4 or the 4.5 HD.

Did you ever compare the encoded quality of your output from FCP against CCE on PC?

Also, instead of using DVD Studio Pro 3, you can try DVD Maestro on PC which is same as DVDSP on Mac or you could use DVDLab Pro 1.0 which has been just released for PC. People say DVDLab Pro is very good.

Can I ask you why you prefer Mac for your DVD authoring?

Btw, when you say Liquid is no better for MPEG2 encoding when compared to CCE, how would you guarantee that Liquid will not mess with your source DV quality when you 'Fuse' to a external AVI file? What if the 'Fuse' feature messes your DV source by inducing color artifacts, luminance etc?

Appreciate your replies.

VS

[Arky]

Originally posted by vasudev71
For the past 1 month, my mind is liking PowerBook G4 and its great to hear that you do your video editing on Mac.






I enjoy using my Powerbook (and it is beautifully made, I might add), but I do not edit on it - I only author on it.





Originally posted by vasudev71

Since, you said you use Mac, why don't you use Final Cut Pro 4.5 HD to do your rendering? I understand CCE's quality is exceptional. But, since you are on Mac, you would have definitely tried Final Cut Pro 4 or the 4.5 HD.






Yes, I have used FCP 4 on the Mac, and it has some nice features (nice integrated scaling options for repurposing footage, for example). However, I do not enjoy FCP's interface, which I consider to be outdated and clunky (please note that I don't wish to start a flame war about this, with FCP addicts - I'm simply stating a personal opinion). Liquid Edition's interface (and numerous other features) is simply light years ahead, IMHO.





Originally posted by vasudev71

Did you ever compare the encoded quality of your output from FCP against CCE on PC?






Yes, I did. During my (exhaustive) testing of TFDVDEdit's Seamless-Branching feature, in the run-up to NAB, I ran multiple encodes, using several different software encoders (TMPGEnc, MainConcept, ProCoder, CCE, Compressor, Quicktime MPEG, and BitVice). ALL of these encodes, irrespective of generative platform, were brought into to DVD SP 2, multiplexed, and interleaved in TFDVDEdit, before being viewed on both PowerDVD and burned to disc for playback on a Toshiba standalone, through a professional Sony monitor.

I concluded that Compressor yields quite reasonable image quality, but is nothing like as amazing as Apple would have you believe, and it is painfully slow. Add to that, the fact that it creates horrendous bitrate spikes, during VBR encodes. This alone precludes it's sensible use for Partial-Interleaving purposes. BitVice produces pretty decent quality, in my experience, and the speed is moderate. However, IMHO, neither of these encoders come anywhere close to the speed and efficacy of CCE or ProCoder, on the PC platform.

Again, this is personal opinion, based on my own, extended, testing. Others may hold different opinions.

In short, there are two main reasons why I use the Mac:

1) It allows me to use TFDVDEdit, a unique program which has been developed for Mac use (although it may be used 100% compliantly with the multiplexed VIDEO_TS output of any spec-compliant authoring system, regardless of that authoring system's host platform).

2) The Mac allows me to use DVD SP 3. This program has it's imperfections, but remains, by far, the most accomplished authoring program for the money. DVD Maestro is a nice, if discontinued, system, but the license fee remains several times that of DVD SP, with no major additional functionality (see here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75359&highlight=arky+emulation) for a discussion about relative merits (scroll down to post 12/13))





Originally posted by vasudev71

...or you could use DVDLab Pro 1.0 which has been just released for PC. People say DVDLab Pro is very good.






I am very excited about the potential of DVDLab, and I have been watching progress very attentively. However, at the present time, there remain some significant spec-compliance issues with DVDLab's multiplexed output. As soon as this output reaches a standard where it passes verification, then there will be a great deal more people clamouring to buy the program, myself included. The program incorporates some wonderfully innovative features, and I look forward to the day it achieves reliable spec-compliance.






Originally posted by vasudev71

Btw, when you say Liquid is no better for MPEG2 encoding when compared to CCE, how would you guarantee that Liquid will not mess with your source DV quality when you 'Fuse' to a external AVI file? What if the 'Fuse' feature messes your DV source by inducing color artifacts, luminance etc?





Although I appreciate your concern, I find your question a little bewildering, on one level. Liquid is no different from any other software-based NLE, in so much that it captures DV footage into the DV-codec variation of it's choosing, and renders only that which needs to be rendered, in order to achieve the required end result of the editor. Broadly-speaking, It is no more likely to introduce significant artifacts than any other comparable system (we could argue til the cows come home about 'which manufacturer's codec is the best', but I feel that it is not the question you are asking, and I am not a 'codec-head' anyway). There is nothing, in any way, 'mystical' about Liquid's 'Fuse' feature. It is simply another way of saying that (having rendered those elements of the timeline which must necessarily be rendered - i.e. effects) it is going to create a standalone DV-codec file, in the native DV codec that it has been using ever since the footage was originally captured. The vast najority of the material will never undergo any rendering.

To be honest, this distinction between 'Fusing' a DV file, or performing what other NLEs would refer to as a Final 'DV render', is something of a red herring - it's really more a question of semantics than any fundamental technical difference. The mount of rendering, when 'fusing' a file is, I assure you, kept only to the bare minimum.

However, if you are referring to the potential for DV-codec artifacts to be introduced on those specific portions of a sequence which do have effects applied, in so much as they might be avoided by exporting direct to MPEG, from within the NLE, then perhaps you may have a point. I have not noticed any significant degradation in my output, as a consequence of One generation of DV-codec render at those points, and I feel that CCE's subsequent MPEG encoding prowess would more than compensate for this, as compared to the integrated MPEG encoder. This argument may seem a little illogical, but my point is that (if 'Fusing') I am only going to suffer one additional generation, and only at effects locations. Given that many effects (such as fades or dissolves, for example) pose significant challenges to MPEG encoders (e.g. motion estimation etc.), the situation is not always clearcut. Do I want to risk the possibility (however slim) of significant codec-induced artifacts, or do I want to risk macroblock artifacts, or similar, from a less-capable MPEG encoder?

It's a tough decision, but I have been satisfied with my chosen workflow, to date.

I guess the real test is a subjective one, and one you would have to undertake yourself. I would add that the Fast (now re-badged as Pinnacle) codec is a very decent codec.

I fully respect your concern about codecs and rendering, though.

With the forthcoming release of Liquid 6, uncompressed editing will become an option (hardware capabilities allowing). I have, in the past, converted DV-captured footage to Uncompressed, using FCP on the Mac, deinteraced and motion blurred, and then encoded to MPEG (using BitVice). The results were very nice. I am undecided as yet, but I may investigate the possiblity of doing some of my work in the uncompressed domain, with Liquid 6. I guess I'll just have to try and see how it performs on my hardware.


Lastly, going back to the MPEG encoding debate, please don't forget that encoding speed is an important consideration when you are trying to move forward to the DVD authoring stage and get the DVD finished to a deadline.


Arky ;o)

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

Thanks for your replies.

Quick question:

If I'm sticking with PC and not moving to Mac, what PC based DVD authoring software would match DVD Studio Pro on Mac with respect to performance, quality, features and learning curve?

Btw, did you ever tried this?

Using Final Cut Pro 4.0/4.5 HD, could you 'X-Send' (or similar feature) to a standalone AVI (if Mac supports AVI) or to a .MOV file and run CCE standalone encoder from PC to encode the AVI/MOV to MPEG2 and then port the MPEG2 file back to Mac to run thru DVD Studio Pro?

Also, did you had a chance to run your standalone AVI ('X-Sended' from Liquid) from within Scenalyzer Live and got the timestamp information which I was mentioning?

Btw, I found a good filter for Liquid that can burn-in the timestamp on top of my DV AVI. Now, as you said Liquid works in YUV colorspace, can you tell me by looking into this URL whether this filter works in YUV or RGB? Can any 3rd party filter for that matter work in RGB while Liquid itself works in YUV?
URL: http://www.hlinke.de/Home_e/RTFX_Plugin__E_/Examples-_LEdition/Timecode_Pro/timecode_pro.html


Appreciate your reply.

VS

[Arky]

Originally posted by vasudev71
If I'm sticking with PC and not moving to Mac, what PC based DVD authoring software would match DVD Studio Pro on Mac with respect to performance, quality, features and learning curve?






Well, that's just the problem - for the same money, there is nothing that compares (not even Adobe Encore). That is precisely why I use DVD SP 3.

As I said, DVDLab shows a great deal of promise, but is currently unsuitable for commercial use. If you want to author just for yourself, though, then it might still be a good option.

Adobe Encore is probably the closest you are going to get to DVD SP 3, on Windows, but it is definitely the poorer relation.

Ulead DVD Workshop is not bad, and they have (surprisingly, for the pricepoint) made a very decent effort to get their output formatting up to a decent level. They still need to offer greater authoring flexibility, though, IMHO.

If money is no option, then obviously, there is Spruce DVD Maestro and Scenarist...




Originally posted by vasudev71

Using Final Cut Pro 4.0/4.5 HD, could you 'X-Send' (or similar feature) to a standalone AVI (if Mac supports AVI) or to a .MOV file and run CCE standalone encoder from PC to encode the AVI/MOV to MPEG2 and then port the MPEG2 file back to Mac to run thru DVD Studio Pro?






Of course, you can create a .mov DV file on the Mac and encode this to MPEG 2 using CCE, and I have done so in the past (http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=61208&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#61208), but personally, I do not enjoy using FCP, so this option is not one I favour.




Originally posted by vasudev71

Also, did you had a chance to run your standalone AVI ('X-Sended' from Liquid) from within Scenalyzer Live and got the timestamp information which I was mentioning?





Sorry, mate, I'm on a week of nightshifts at the moment, and I'm also doing support work for another website, in between my shifts, so I'm extremely limited on time at the moment, and haven't been able to run that test yet. Remember, I don't even own Scenalyzer at present.





Originally posted by vasudev71

Btw, I found a good filter for Liquid that can burn-in the timestamp on top of my DV AVI. Now, as you said Liquid works in YUV colorspace, can you tell me by looking into this URL whether this filter works in YUV or RGB? Can any 3rd party filter for that matter work in RGB while Liquid itself works in YUV?





I'm sorry, I don't know - perhaps you could e-mail the author of the filter?


Regards,


Arky ;o)

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

Thanks for your replies.

Quick question on my PC and Mac setup:

I got a Dell Dimension PIII with 512MB RAM and 2 120GB 7200rpm hard drives. It has a 16MB Diamond Viper AGP video card.

My only concern is the video card. Is this setup OK to use Pinnacle Liquid and CCE?

I don't care about the extra hours my machine has to work. I'm always keen on my encoded video quality. Will usage of a 16MB video card decrease my encoded video quality output in any way?

Also, what is the best screen resolution that I should keep to do DV encoding (DV to MPEG2==>DVD) using Liquid NLE and CCE? Also, what route you go for audio? I heard that CCE is not good in Audio encoding and AC3 will be the best format in terms of file size. Please explain your way of getting best audio.

I'm a newbie on these little questions. Please assist me.

On the Mac side, do you know if I can get a dual hard drive on the PowerBook G4? Also, if using DVD Studio Pro 3, will the compressor be involved? Because, your input to DVD Studio Pro will be CCE generated MPEG2 file (.m2v) and a AC3 file. If the compressor gets involved, I heard that its not exceptionally good. Please clarify me on this.

Appreciate your replies.

VS

[Arky]

Originally posted by vasudev71

I got a Dell Dimension PIII with 512MB RAM and 2 120GB 7200rpm hard drives. It has a 16MB Diamond Viper AGP video card.

My only concern is the video card. Is this setup OK to use Pinnacle Liquid and CCE?






Liquid 5.x will work with a minimum of 32mb, if my memory serves me correctly. However, 64mb is the minimum if you wish to properly take advantage of the GPU-based effects.

Liquid 6 requires more horsepower, so I would very strongly recommend that you upgrade to a minimum 128mb graphics card. They're really not terribly expensive these days. For the purposes of using Liquid, steer clear of Matrox cards, and stick with ATI or Nvidia.


However, I notice that your current PC is a Pentium 3, and, unfortunately, this will not be powerful enough to run Liquid, so perhaps you may need to use an alternative NLE, which is not so demanding of system resources (Liquid Edition requires a minimum CPU specification (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/WebVideo/liquideditionproversion6/English(US)/doc/LiquidConsumerBroch_US-FINAL_07Sep2004.pdf?Langue_ID=7&loc=lMen1655) of P4 1.8ghz).





Originally posted by vasudev71

I don't care about the extra hours my machine has to work. I'm always keen on my encoded video quality. Will usage of a 16MB video card decrease my encoded video quality output in any way?






Liquid simply won't work properly with such a small quantity of VRAM, I'm afraid. You need to keep in mind the fact that Liquid is quite unique in the way it leverages the AGP bus and GPU capabilities in order to accelerate the use of effects, during editing. This is why it asks so much of the graphics card specification.




Originally posted by vasudev71

Also, what is the best screen resolution that I should keep to do DV encoding (DV to MPEG2==>DVD) using Liquid NLE and CCE? Also, what route you go for audio? I heard that CCE is not good in Audio encoding and AC3 will be the best format in terms of file size. Please explain your way of getting best audio.






Assuming you are editing standard DV footage, then both PAL and NTSC should be kept the at the same resolution that they were captured, since it is identical to that required for DVD MPEG (25fps 720x576 PAL; 29.97 fps 720x480 NTSC). The physical number of pixels on my LCD monitor, for editing with Liquid, is 1280x1024, but you would just about be able to get away with 1024x768. Anything less than that, and there won't be enough room to fit all the details of the GUI onto the screen.




Originally posted by vasudev71

On the Mac side, do you know if I can get a dual hard drive on the PowerBook G4?







There is no room for a second hard drive in the Powerbook chassis, but I simply use external Firewire drives to get around this problem.




Originally posted by vasudev71

Also, if using DVD Studio Pro 3, will the compressor be involved? Because, your input to DVD Studio Pro will be CCE generated MPEG2 file (.m2v) and a AC3 file. If the compressor gets involved, I heard that its not exceptionally good. Please clarify me on this.





Apple could be forgiven for thinking that I do not like them as a company (which, for the most part, is not the case), because I have stated, on many forums, that there are serious shortcomings with Compressor. This isn't a 'swipe' at Apple. It's simply a statement of fact. Compressor creates reasonably good quality output, when it is operating correctly. However, it often creates huge bitrate peaks in VBR mode, and DVD SP users have had no end of trouble because of this. Compressor's motion estimation capabilities are also not the best in the industry. If you take a look at Apple's own DVD SP support forums (http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@101.RmZkaTCtAzA.0@.689bdeb9) , you will see what I mean about bitrate issues.

If you create motion menus within DVD SP, or if you use the menu transitions feature of DVD SP version 3, then yes, you will be using Compressor to achieve the MPEG compression of those elements. However, if you composite all your menus before you get into the DVD SP environment, and only use the menu editor to add button highlights and navigation links, Compressor will not be employed by the program, behind the scenes.

It is only fair to point out that Compressor usually does a perfectly acceptable job with encoding MPEG still menus, but I would try to avoid using Compressor to encode other elements (eventhough it is often successful), simply because I find its behaviour too erratic and cannot afford to be messed around when authoring a DVD.

DVD SP 3 itself is a great program for the money, if you know how to avoid a few pitfalls (and, let's face it, there are pitfalls with ALL programs) and I use it myself, because I feel it is currently the best you can get for sensible money. In short, by all means use DVD SP 3, but, for your own sanity, just try to avoid using Compressor until Apple have ironed out the problems.



As far as MPEG 2 and .ac3 encoding is concerned, CCE-generated MPEG 2 files will not be re-rendered by Compressor unless, as I said, you attempt to use them to compose motion menus in DVD SP by adding elements (other than button highlights) within the menu editor. Encoding .ac3 is simple, if you have DVD SP - you can simply import .wav files (or .aif files, if they were created on the Mac, using FCP, for example) into A-Pack (the standalone .ac3 encoder that is provided as part of the DVD SP package), and encode them using your desired .ac3 parameters. This is a fully-featured, commercial-grade software .ac3 encoder, and will cater for multi-channel as well as conventional stereo soundtracks. You may also use it;s output for commercial purposes without buying further licenses from Dolby Laboratories.

Liquid 6's new .ac3 encoding capabilities are shrouded in some mystery at the moment, but, to the best of my knowledge (and I really hope I am proven wrong on this point, when L.E. 6 is finally released) it will only create .ac3 files if you are authoring and compliling a DVD from within the program. In other words, I suspect it does not allow you to encode just a standalone .ac3 soundtrack, to be imported into a seperate DVD authoring program.

One limitation to Liquid 6's .ac3 encoder, which I DO know, for a fact, to be true, is that it does not come with a commercial-usage license, so if you wish to create commercial projects (e.g. for replication), then you would need to approach Dolby Laboratories for a commercial .ac3 encoding license.


It sounds to me as though you are still uncertain whether to do all your editing and authoring on the PC, or to do as I do, and use both PC and Mac. I am happy to discuss it, but please let me know your decision, and the reasons why, before you actually spend any money on new hardware.


Arky ;o)

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

Appreciate your extensive replies.

With my PentiumIII in hand, 512MB RAM and 16MB TNT Diamond Viper Card, will I be able to use this machine to push it to its maximum?

The reason being, I don't have any plans to upgrade this PIII since I spent $2500 (Dell's huge price tag in 1999).

Based on what I said, assume that I'm able to install and run Pinnacle Liquid with no errors or warnings and also assumingly my machine is slow while rendering/editing, will there be in any way loss of quality to my 'X-Sended' AVI file?

As I said before, I don't care about performance even if it takes days for any task which should have taken only hours on P4.

I'm always keen on the quality of my output.

What do you meant when you said this:

64mb is the minimum if you wish to properly take advantage of the GPU-based effects.

Now, if I'm using 16MB Video RAM, will it affect the quality of my 'X-Sended' AVI output in any way if I'm using GPU based effects?


You said:

Liquid simply won't work properly with such a small quantity of VRAM, I'm afraid. You need to keep in mind the fact that Liquid is quite unique in the way it leverages the AGP bus and GPU capabilities in order to accelerate the use of effects, during editing. This is why it asks so much of the graphics card specification.

My question:

You have mentioned Liquid with acclerate the use of effects if running on 64MB VRAM which means there will be no loss of quality when running it on 16MB VRAM. Right?

With regard to Mac:

You said this:

If you create motion menus within DVD SP, or if you use the menu transitions feature of DVD SP version 3, then yes, you will be using Compressor to achieve the MPEG compression of those elements. However, if you composite all your menus before you get into the DVD SP environment, and only use the menu editor to add button highlights and navigation links, Compressor will not be employed by the program, behind the scenes.

My question:

How do I composite all my menus from outside before getting it into DVD Studio Pro 3?


You said this:

It is only fair to point out that Compressor usually does a perfectly acceptable job with encoding MPEG still menus, but I would try to avoid using Compressor to encode other elements (eventhough it is often successful), simply because I find its behaviour too erratic and cannot afford to be messed around when authoring a DVD.

DVD SP 3 itself is a great program for the money, if you know how to avoid a few pitfalls (and, let's face it, there are pitfalls with ALL programs) and I use it myself, because I feel it is currently the best you can get for sensible money. In short, by all means use DVD SP 3, but, for your own sanity, just try to avoid using Compressor until Apple have ironed out the problems.

My question:

What are the other ways of working in DVD Studio Pro 3 without absolutely depending on Compressor and also whats your complete setup from source video to target DVD? Can you elaborate if you don't mind?

Btw, I'm still not yet decided on my move to Mac and I'm weighing on your best valuable inputs with regard to Mac. The reason I don't want to upgrade to P4 or my VRAM on PIII is because if I buy a PowerBook, then it will be a big investment and big direction change. So, why spend on PC based systems when I move to Mac?

Appreciate your replies.

Rgds,

VS

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

What happened to your speed in replying?:)

Appreciate your replies.

Rgds,

VS

[Arky]

Hi,

I cannot always respond quickly because I have commitments at other forums, too, and there is only just so much time in my day. Worthwhile replies take more than 2 minutes to write.





Originally posted by vasudev71
With my PentiumIII in hand, 512MB RAM and 16MB TNT Diamond Viper Card, will I be able to use this machine to push it to its maximum?

The reason being, I don't have any plans to upgrade this PIII since I spent $2500 (Dell's huge price tag in 1999).

Based on what I said, assume that I'm able to install and run Pinnacle Liquid with no errors or warnings and also assumingly my machine is slow while rendering/editing, will there be in any way loss of quality to my 'X-Sended' AVI file?

As I said before, I don't care about performance even if it takes days for any task which should have taken only hours on P4.





Respectfully, although I really would like to be able to tell you that you can leverage the considerable power of modern video editing software, using an older machine, the simple, unfortunate, fact is that you cannot. Many of the real-time rendering features you see in the latest video editing software have only become viable with the increase in processing power (both GPU and CPU, in the case of Liquid). It is the nature of the home computing market that machines do develop quite rapidly, with consequent reductions in value of components which, at the time of purchase, cost a considerable amount. This fact is inescapable :(

Whereas, in the past, editing programs were not coded with real-time capabilities, and could thus run on virtually any machine, just at different speeds, more modern software really does make specific demands on minimum processing capabilities, because it is designed to do so much, both in the background and in the foreground, to maximise how rapidly one can edit.

Loss of image quality is not an issue, here, - the simple fact is that the GPU-based capabilities of Liquid will choke if you attempt to use them on a 16mb, outdated, graphics card. I very much doubt that Liquid will even install on your system. I'm really sorry for the bad news. If you must, you could try to install the demo version of the program.





Originally posted by vasudev71

What do you meant when you said this:

64mb is the minimum if you wish to properly take advantage of the GPU-based effects.

Now, if I'm using 16MB Video RAM, will it affect the quality of my 'X-Sended' AVI output in any way if I'm using GPU based effects?





Liquid uses the GPU to accelerate certain effects. In other editing systems, these effects would be rendered entirely in the software domain, using conventional CPU calculation. This is why Liquid must be installed on a system with a powerful graphics card.




Originally posted by vasudev71

With regard to Mac:

You said this:

If you create motion menus within DVD SP, or if you use the menu transitions feature of DVD SP version 3, then yes, you will be using Compressor to achieve the MPEG compression of those elements. However, if you composite all your menus before you get into the DVD SP environment, and only use the menu editor to add button highlights and navigation links, Compressor will not be employed by the program, behind the scenes.

My question:

How do I composite all my menus from outside before getting it into DVD Studio Pro 3?






You could use Adobe After Effects (Mac or Win), Combustion (Mac or Win), Any decent NLE with compositing capabilities built in (e.g. Picture In Picture), Apple Motion (Mac), Boris FX (Mac or Win), Boris RED (Mac or Win) etc. (here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27176) are some ideas).

Then encode your finished composite to MPEG 2 before importing the MPEG 2 file into DVD SP and just adding highlights to your previously-composited buttons.




Originally posted by vasudev71

You said this:

It is only fair to point out that Compressor usually does a perfectly acceptable job with encoding MPEG still menus, but I would try to avoid using Compressor to encode other elements (eventhough it is often successful), simply because I find its behaviour too erratic and cannot afford to be messed around when authoring a DVD.

DVD SP 3 itself is a great program for the money, if you know how to avoid a few pitfalls (and, let's face it, there are pitfalls with ALL programs) and I use it myself, because I feel it is currently the best you can get for sensible money. In short, by all means use DVD SP 3, but, for your own sanity, just try to avoid using Compressor until Apple have ironed out the problems.

My question:

What are the other ways of working in DVD Studio Pro 3 without absolutely depending on Compressor and also whats your complete setup from source video to target DVD? Can you elaborate if you don't mind?





Well, as I said, you can avoid creating elements in DVD SP which require rendering. So you can composite all your elements, and encode them to MPEG 2, before you import them into DVD SP.


My general workflow would be as follows:


Capture DV footage into Pinnacle Liquid

Edit footage as required, using Liquid's own compositing capabilities to create P.I.P.s, button text etc., unless the job is particularly complex, in which case I might use Adobe After Effects to composite the menus.

Create any required stills in Adobe Photoshop (actually, I sometimes do this on the PC, and sometimes on the Mac - I have no preference because Photoshop runs equally well on either platform. Generally, though, I use Photoshop (and sometimes DVD Menu Studio) on the PC because it means I can more tightly integrate the design process with my video editing and compositing).

Encode my finished video files to MPEG 2, using CCE Basic or ProCoder, depending on the characteristics of the footage for the particular job in hand.

Using a firewire HDD, transfer my .bmp/.jpg stills, MPEG 2 video assets, and .wav audio assets, to the Mac.

Encode my .wav audio assets to .ac3 using Apple A-pack (part of the DVD SP retail package).

Import .bmp/.jpg stills, MPEG 2 video, and .ac3 audio assets into DVD SP, and author my DVD, finally multiplexing a VIDEO_TS folder of the project.

Open the VIDEO_TS folder in TFDVDEdit, to strip out the inefficient Abstraction-layer-generated navigation command structure, and create efficient spec-level navigation command structure. Also Partially-Interleave any PGCs which are destined for 'Seamless-Branching' in the final project. Save the modified VIDEO_TS folder, and output to format of choice (e.g. DVDR or DLT).




Originally posted by vasudev71

Btw, I'm still not yet decided on my move to Mac and I'm weighing on your best valuable inputs with regard to Mac. The reason I don't want to upgrade to P4 or my VRAM on PIII is because if I buy a PowerBook, then it will be a big investment and big direction change. So, why spend on PC based systems when I move to Mac?






It's a tough call, and I appreciate that a new machine, irrespective of platform, is a major investment. I use both platforms because I feel that neither of them has the perfect tools for every job in the workflow. However, either platform can be made to produce satisfactory results on its own. There are interesting developments afoot, in the emulation world, but it is too early to comment about these, at present. We should know, by the end of the year, or perhaps early next year, if these will bear fruit - previous attempts have not been very successful. Therefore, I do NOT wish to get your hopes up, but it would be wise of you to wait (if you can) until we can establish, from real tests with a finished product, if emulation has now become viable. If (and only if ! ) this new emulation proves to be viable, then it may just be possible for you to spend your money on a new P4 and use DVD SP on this machine, via emulation. DVD SP is a power-hungry program, though, because the port of Maestro was not very efficiently done. No matter how good, emulation always results in a performance hit, on a system, so only time will tell if a P4 still has enough grunt, despite the performance hit, to run DVD SP's inefficient code acceptably.

Regards,


Arky ;o)

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

Thanks for your excellent replies.

For creating menus, how good is DVD Menu Studio?
I think it can also generate motion menus.

OR

Can I use Ulead DVD Workshop 2 or Impression DVD to create complex menu for my DVD?

Btw, whats wrong with DVDSP port from DVDMaestro? What did they miss?. Apart from the Compressor, whats actually bad in it and why do you always use TFDVDEdit? Some sites claim that DVDSP can do anything that TFDVDEdit can and so there is no need for TFDVDEdit. Is this true?

From what you said in your previous reply, is DVDMaestro still better with the last release on PC when compared to DVDSP 3?

Can I make DVDSP to use a different encoder (BitVice seems to be excellent) instead of Compressor?

Sorry to ask you too many questions. If I'm buying a Mac, I will only buy with DVDSP. Thats why I would have to make sure, my money spent on Mac, is spent wisefully.

I have also heard of PearPC and CherryOS (offical launch is 11/26).
CherryOS claims its 80% faster on PIII.

Appreaciate your replies.

Rgds,

VS

[Arky]

Originally posted by vasudev71
For creating menus, how good is DVD Menu Studio?
I think it can also generate motion menus.





DVD Menu studio is pretty good, but it's not as powerful as Photoshop with a few plugins. I like it, but I still use Photoshop as well. The thing with DVD Menu studio is that it is a great price for what it can do, and it has some nice effects as standard (e.g. lighting). It's also great for its vector graphics editing capability. DVD Menu Studio is not capable of creating motion menus, though - it is strictly for stills work.





Originally posted by vasudev71

Can I use Ulead DVD Workshop 2 or Impression DVD to create complex menu for my DVD?





Well, you can create menus in either of these programs, but it all depends on exactly what you mean by "create". If you mean can you composite motion menus, then you would still ideally need to use something like your NLE or After Effects.






Originally posted by vasudev71

Btw, whats wrong with DVDSP port from DVDMaestro? What did they miss?. Apart from the Compressor, whats actually bad in it and why do you always use TFDVDEdit? Some sites claim that DVDSP can do anything that TFDVDEdit can and so there is no need for TFDVDEdit. Is this true?





It's not that they 'missed' anything (although they did remove manual VTS allocation). DTS support has been reinstated in DVD SP 3 (it was absent in Version 2). Basically, the program does virtually anything that Maestro can do. My remark simply referred to the fact that the code is less responsive than it could be - for example, if you have a project with a large number of menus, it can take a long time to load the project, when you resume an authoring session. It's not a huge issue, but if you were using inefficient emulation on an already-slow machine, then it could become more salient.

The reason I use TFDVDEdit is that it has powerful features unavailable in DVDMaestro or DVD SP 3. Maestro and DVD SP are abstraction layer authoring systems - they work very well, in as much as they allow simple, rapid, authoring. However, the nature of abstraction layer authoring systems is that they generate lengthy, inefficient navigation command scripts which dramatically slow navigation between assets on the disc. With TFDVDEdit, I can use DVD SP (or any authoring system, for that matter) to generate menus and multiplex my video and audio assets, and then strip out any inefficient command scripts and reauthor them on a true spec-based level. I can also check the correct operation of these scripts, using the program's 'Tracer' feature, which allows me to step through each command line, and view the SPRM/GPRM variables at each step. There's a host of other things I can do, too, such as Partial Interleaving (if the project requires it). In short, yes, you can author DVDs with just DVD SP, but using TFDVDEdit afterwards means I can achieve a far more professional navigation command structure, and can create Seamless-Branching Titles if I wish to. It is my personal preference and I am not trying to suggest, even for a moment, that it is absolutely essential, if you are an author who does not need to author on a spec-level. How demanding you are of your authored projects is for you to decide. I only mentioned the program, above, because you asked me for my complete workflow. :)






Originally posted by vasudev71

From what you said in your previous reply, is DVDMaestro still better with the last release on PC when compared to DVDSP 3?






No. Read my remarks, again, in the 13th post inthis thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75359&highlight=arky+surfdrifter). Maestro and DVD SP are both great programs. The biggest single difference between them both is license cost.






Originally posted by vasudev71

Can I make DVDSP to use a different encoder (BitVice seems to be excellent) instead of Compressor?






No. Not within the program, but you can, of course, prepare your assets outside of the program, using whichever encoder you prefer. BitVice is one of the best encoders on the Mac platform.






Originally posted by vasudev71

I have also heard of PearPC and CherryOS (offical launch is 11/26).
CherryOS claims its 80% faster on PIII.






Yes, I was referring to Cherry OS. Cherry OS apparently offers access to more system resources than Pear PC does, and at (allegedly) greater efficiency, too. But, as I also said, it has yet to be released, so it is impossible to comment yet on whether it lives up to the claims of the developer. If it does, then you may be able to buy a fast P4 and run both Mac and PC software on the one machine.


Arky ;o)

[vasudev71]

Hi Arky,

Thanks for your time in replying me.

I have few more questions for you.

You said:

No. Not within the program, but you can, of course, prepare your assets outside of the program, using whichever encoder you prefer. BitVice is one of the best encoders on the Mac platform.

My question:

Why would DVDSP use Compressor at the first place? I thought it just converts all assets to DVD complaint .VOB files.
If it has to, why can't I force DVDSP to use other encoders instead of the default Compressor?

Btw, do you own a PowerBook G4 or PowerMac?
If you own PowerBook G4, how good is when its running DVDSP and TFDVDEdit at the same time? Is it pretty fast when running DVDSP alone? Also, do you know of a software that is very similar and efficient as TFDVDEdit on PC?

Appreciate your replies.

Rgds,

VS

[Arky]

Originally posted by vasudev71

Why would DVDSP use Compressor at the first place?





There are a number of situations in which DVD SP will have to use Compressor in order to complete a project, including:


* If you composite menus within DVD SP (instead of using DVD SP's menu editor only to add highlight button fields to menu compositions created outside of DVD SP).


* If you use the Menu Transitions feature in DVD SP 3, these transitions are created within DVD SP, and thus must be encoded to MPEG 2, within the program, before they can be incorporated into a spec-compliant multiplexed output.

* If you import video assets into DVD SP as Quicktime .mov files, instead of MPEG 2 files.






Originally posted by vasudev71

If it has to, why can't I force DVDSP to use other encoders instead of the default Compressor?





Apple don't want you to use competitors' encoders, so they make no provision for you to do so. If you believe what Apple tell you, Compressor is the best encoder since sliced bread... (it isn't)





Originally posted by vasudev71

...do you own a PowerBook G4 or PowerMac?






Thanks to a generous friend of mine, I am fortunate enough to own a Powerbook G4.





Originally posted by vasudev71

...how good is when its running DVDSP and TFDVDEdit at the same time?






TFDVDEdit uses very little processing power - it is more demanding on an I/O level than on a processing level. Therefore, it can be run at the same time as DVD SP extremely easily. However, this is not something I ever need to do, because TFDVDEdit is brought into use only after DVD SP has finished multiplexing a VIDEO_TS folder, for TFDVDEdit to operate upon.




Originally posted by vasudev71
Also, do you know of a software that is very similar and efficient as TFDVDEdit on PC?






Similar? Well, although still Mac-based, to a degree, myDVDEdit (http://www.macetvideo.com/mydvdedit/mydvdedit.html) is 'similar', but it all depends on how demanding you are. Although the two programs may appear outwardly similar, TFDVDEdit (http://www.tfdvdedit.com) is extremely strict with regard to true spec-compliance, and can thus be relied upon for professional use. It also offers greater capability than myDVDEdit (e.g. powerful DLT mastering and true Partial-Interleaving - AKA 'Seamless-Branching'. Bear in mind that Partial-Interleaving is only available in TFDVDEdit, Panasonic's proprietary authoring system, and Toshiba's proprietary authoring system, the Panasonic and Toshiba systems each costing over $100k). Nevertheless, the author of myDVDEdit is doing a great job with his program, and it shows a lot of promise. It is always good to see developers addressing the needs of the authoring community, where the big vendors have left a void.

Aside from the increased number of features in TFDVDEdit, you need to ask yourself whether you will be authoring for yourself, or for professional/commercial purposes. If you intend to author on a professional basis, for replication, then TFDVDEdit would undoubtedly be the sensible choice. I mean no disrespect, by this, towards myDVDEdit - I am simply stating the facts as I see them. The programming team behind TFDVDEdit are fully paid-up DVD forum members, and thus have full access to the real DVD spec books, thus ensuring full spec-compliance at every step of the way. If all you want to do is author for personal projects, though, then myDVDEdit may meet your needs for re-authoring some of the navigation command structures.

Also keep in mind my earlier remarks about CherryOS. We must wait and see, but it may allow TFDVDEdit to run on the PC, alongside DVD SP, and your other WindowsOS-based software...


Arky ;o)

[hendrix]

Originally posted by Arky Thanks to a generous friend of mine, I am fortunate enough to own a Powerbook G4.
cool...does your generous friend have another one laying around for,...um...me? ;)

[Arky]

Originally posted by hendrix
cool...does your generous friend have another one laying around for,...um...me? ;)


...um...no! ;)


Arky.

[MrTVideo]

I have a copy of Uleads Media Studio 2.5 99 tracks, Moving path, Chroma, Even outputs Mov files. In conjunction with Studio 8 there is not much I cannot achieve. With the addition of Avisynth and Virtualdubmod and Doom9's forums who needs better. Movie magic is easy its getting actors that is difficult. Think I will need to try some other family maybe they will be more camera / camera man friendly. I must have the worlds greatest collection of tongues.

[eidenk]

I am using an old soft that was from Corel and that was then sold to IMSI who abandoned it. It's called Lumiere Video Studio and it's truly excellent especially in terms of effects. I'd say it still rivals Premiere or Vegas despite the fact it hasn't been updated for years. I paid one pound for it. A second hand copy of PC advisor with a fully working unlimited version on it. On top of this I have Demopaja, an excellent freeware video editor from the demoscene, a free copy of Particle Illusion that came with a copy of Digit last year(PC Utilities gave it away as well but without the 50 mb of additional effects), the freeware version of DDClip (right click on an audio track and play it first for a second if the app crashes on trying to playback the video)and Aviutil. With this I am able to do a lot and I wouldn't even begin to consider shelling out money for Premiere. Not even using a dodgy copy of it.

[hendrix]

Originally posted by eidenk
I am using an old soft that was from Corel and that was then sold to IMSI who abandoned it. It's called Lumiere Video Studio and it's truly excellent especially in terms of effects. I'd say it still rivals Premiere or Vegas despite the fact it hasn't been updated for years. I paid one pound for it. A second hand copy of PC advisor with a fully working unlimited version on it. On top of this I have Demopaja, an excellent freeware video editor from the demoscene, a free copy of Particle Illusion that came with a copy of Digit last year(PC Utilities gave it away as well but without the 50 mb of additional effects), the freeware version of DDClip (right click on an audio track and play it first for a second if the app crashes on trying to playback the video)and Aviutil. With this I am able to do a lot and I wouldn't even begin to consider shelling out money for Premiere. Not even using a dodgy copy of it.
very cool...if youre happy with what you go then why change...if it ain't broken then don't fix it

[Mug Funky]

i guess this is the place to put it:

premiere pro might be good in other respects (and it's great that it finally works in AYUV 4:4:4), but it's not usable for mpeg-2 editing. it'll edit okay, but the export will mess up frame order at scene changes. that is, on a scenechange it will place the next frame after the I-frame, then the last frame before it, then the I-frame. this makes scenechanges beyond ugly. and there's no workaround that i've been able to find (i don't have this program at home, on account of not having winXP). i suspect this is a problem with open-GOP stuff, but i can't be sure of that. perhaps encoding at high-bitrate and no b-frames could solve it?

also, both premiere 6 and pro do not handle AVIS fake avi properly. again, they will edit fine, but on export you get pure garbage running at a tenth the speed it should. i don't understand what's wrong there...

it seems premiere's engine uses different frame access methods for editing and exporting, which is REALLY bad practice, in these days of WYSIWYG editing - you don't want to be the slightest bit uncertain about whether your export will "work", especially if you've spent hours editing it.

also, premiere pro doesn't seem to work properly under P4 with HyperThreading. i assume that's the problem as in a room with 4 otherwise identical machines it ran the worst on the one that didn't have HT disabled... it crashes every minute. switching between compositions on the timeline is enough to crash it and lose all your work.

on top of that, if you want a king-of-all reasons NOT to buy this program, it only supports winXP, and only supports processors with the SSE instruction set, so anyone with a pre-XP athlon will have a lot of difficulty, even if theoretically they could run the program flawlessly. likewise, win2K is more than capable of running this program, but isn't by design. that's an appalling practice of bedding certain companies (MS and Intel) that i wouldn't support even if it were the world's best-and-perfectly-functioning NLE app, which it by far isn't.

however, if you have an SSE capable CPU with WinXP, don't have HyperThreading, and you're editing I-frame only codecs, like DV, MJPEG, huffy, etc, don't mind the occasional crash and freeze-up, then premiere pro is adequate, and certainly better than some other programs i've used.

liquid looks interesting - i'm a stickler for good and innovative design.

[hendrix]

IMO premiere pro is good enough for those starting out, by all means it isn't good enough for heavy duty production work, im NOT saying it's bad either, it doesn't support off-line editing, window burns or reference files, you need to frameserve which hugs valueble CPU power and it's audio mixing is weak at best.

i use AVID Xpress Pro for my off-lines (gotta love the window burns) and on-lines with Media Composer Adrenaline and protools to tweek the audio - premiere's audio mixing is weak at best, Vegas is also great DAW with excellent directx plug-in support.

now im trying to start a premiere vs. avid war - if premiere makes you work faster than by all means use it, but if you have access to pro tools and a media composer then you'll probably wont go back to premiere again.

[vasudev71]

Hi,

I have a question:

Recently, I shot a Thanksgiving party on Canon GL1 with 16:9 mode enabled.
I know its not a true anarmorphic 16:9. But, I thought I will give a try by enabling it.
I found a software (www.dvfilm.com) that can convert my 16:9 (not a true anarmorphic footage)
to 4:3. Do I have to do this conversion explicitly?
Btw, If I don't need to go thru this conversion, how do I import (what presets) this footage into Adobe Premiere Pro
or Pinnacle Liquid and do my edits and rendering to CCE?

Also, when burning a DVD using any DVD authoring tool how do I make sure it correctly encodes my footage?
In DVD player, do I need to go for PanScan or Letterbox mode? and also if it can be automatically switched
in the DVD player by detecting the footage inside the script editor in DVD authoring tool (e.g) DVD Studio Pro?

Appreciate replies.

Rgds,

VS

[hendrix]

Originally posted by vasudev71
Hi,

I have a question:

Recently, I shot a Thanksgiving party on Canon GL1 with 16:9 mode enabled.
I know its not a true anarmorphic 16:9. But, I thought I will give a try by enabling it.
I found a software (www.dvfilm.com) that can convert my 16:9 (not a true anarmorphic footage)
to 4:3. Do I have to do this conversion explicitly?
Btw, If I don't need to go thru this conversion, how do I import (what presets) this footage into Adobe Premiere Pro
or Pinnacle Liquid and do my edits and rendering to CCE?
to clear something up it is a true 16:9 anamorphic footage, the camera just crops it..but it's still anamorphic. you dont not need to use dvfilm - if youre outting to tape you can letterbox it by shrinking it vertically 75% in post.

Also, when burning a DVD using any DVD authoring tool how do I make sure it correctly encodes my footage?
In DVD player, do I need to go for PanScan or Letterbox mode? and also if it can be automatically switched
in the DVD player by detecting the footage inside the script editor in DVD authoring tool (e.g) DVD Studio Pro?

if your outting to DVD...you dont not need to Pan & Scan it or Letterbox it...it won't take advantage of the image...just keep the footage anamorphic and your player will letterbox it for you automatically.

[Zarxrax]

mogfunky:
Sounds like you need to try the avisynth import plugin for premiere. Its far better than that clunky and buggy makeavis method.
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=33653

After using premiere pro 1.5 for some months, I have finally gotten fed up with it and moved back to premiere 6.5. Works far better in my opinion, and despite its many problems, its probably the closest thing to the "perfect" NLE that I will ever find.