Real seeks alliance with Apple to push AAC

[bond]

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/04/16/real/

for information:
Real and Apple both run music stores which use the open audio format AAC (which is specified in the MPEG-4 Standard)
on the contrary to apple, real doesnt also use the container format specified in the MPEG-4 standard: MP4 (M4A), they use their own real container, which makes interoperability difficult right from the start
still they seem to have changed their mind a little bit and their realplayer now rips with AAC to M4A by default

as my personal opinion i think that its a good move from real to seek an alliance with apple to fight back micro$ofts closed format: WMA
i back up this opinion with the fact that AAC is an open format, which allows multiple producers to create their own AAC implementations (for example the opensource FAAC encoder)
whereas with WMA only m$ can cash in (excluding competitors right from the start) making opensource development impossible

and another important point is DRM (digital rights management)
drm takes the power from the consumer and gives it to the producer
now depending on wether you are a consumer or a producer you have to decide if drm is a good or a bad thing for you

[Emp3r0r]

as my personal opinion i think that its a good move from real to seek an alliance with apple to fight back micro$ofts closed format: WMAI think it is a desperation move myselfi back up this opinion with the fact that AAC is an open format, which allows multiple producers to create their own AAC implementations (for example the opensource FAAC encoder)From link: What's stopping the iPod from supporting RealNetworks' music store is licensing, Chiemingo said. Apple could either license FairPlay to RealNetworks for use on their RealPlayer Music Store, or Apple could support Helix on the iPod.

I guess being open to everyone to freely implement has it's drawbacks :sly: just remember, in the end, the patent holders get their cutand another important point is DRM (digital rights management) drm takes the power from the consumer and gives it to the producer DRM scares the hell out of me as a consumer

[Mug Funky]

I think it is a desperation move myself

it's a desperate move we should all get behind. Microsoft are unbelievably anticompetitive, and the only way to beat them at the A/V game they are trying to push into is to unite behind one format and quit squabbling about containers, music store licenses, etc.

this way, what could become a unipolar system is now tripolar (m$, apple and real), and suddenly apple and real have the advantage.

i don't want microsoft to die or anything - they serve a purpose after all.

but they should know their place. and it is NOT the a/v market. one only has to listen to a WMA file to verify this... the world does not have cloth ears, and WMA sounds like a retarded monkey scraping it's butt along polished sheet metal (claim about audio quality not verified by ABX test...)

[KpeX]

Originally posted by Mug Funky
WMA sounds like a retarded monkey scraping it's butt along polished sheet metal (claim about audio quality not verified by ABX test...) Lol! This time we'll give you a break, since I don't know of a good lossless sample of such a retarded monkey for ABX comparison.

But in all seriousness, it would be very nice for AAC to be the clear and only successor to MP3.

[wmansir]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040416/D81VT5J00.html

Apple has already turned them down.

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/16/1922249&mode=thread&tid=107&tid=141&tid=187&tid=188

Jobs is quoted as saying:

"The iPod already works with the No. 1 music service in the world, and the iTunes Music Store works with the No. 1 digital-music player in the world. The No. 2s are so far behind already. Why would we want to work with No. 2?"

Which is kind of funny considering how many Hardware/Software vendors don't target the Mac platform by the same rationale.

[bond]

"Steve just doesn't want to open the iPod, and we don't understand that."
"Jobs said Apple has little incentive to open its popular digital music player to others."

statements which are of course not true, cause the ipod already supports the playback of all aac-in-mp4 files (as output for example by nero, faac, winamp and even the real encoder)
so to say, if real wants to be able to play their songs on the ipod they simply should use the mp4 container without any drm :D


coming back to little seriousness: again this example shows that the lack of standards hinders competition, which is bad for us consumers
mpeg is currently working on standardising a drm system, which if used by the big players would allow interoperability and competition (and it would be easier to crack if only 1 system would exist :D )

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by KpeX
But in all seriousness, it would be very nice for AAC to be the clear and only successor to MP3. IMHO it will !!!

Not necessary because its better than WMA...

Mainly because it uses the mp4 container !!!


Imagine you would be one of thus million unwary n00b's out there, you have downloaded thousands of MP3 files from the P2P...

Then there would be two new formats, one named *.WMA the other named *.MP4 !!!

Which one would you download then ???

Yeah, as you are a n00b the word MP4 would make you think its the next better version of MP3...

You have already downloaded n' listen to MP3's for years now, so you download the MP4 files n' not thus WMA's !!!

Then, after some time there would be million of ppl that have AAC files, but they need hardware to play it...

So the HW producers have to still the hunger of their customers the same way they did it with MP3, VCD, SVCD format !!!


Bye

[Mug Funky]

hmmm. maybe not so...

the unwary n00bs will doubtless have several "copy" (read) protected CDs filled with WMA files. they'll recognise them and decide that mp3 is lame (pun intended) and WMA is the next thing.

hopefully these people will have heard the absurdly low bitrate WMAs that come on these destroyed CDs and realise they sound extremely bad.

i agree the mp4 factor could be a good thing, but right now the files are all called m4a, which is like a mixture of mp3 and wma...

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Mug Funky
i agree the mp4 factor could be a good thing, but right now the files are all called m4a, which is like a mixture of mp3 and wma...

You can call them what you wish this is nothing new. We have had the extensions mpa and mpv around for over a decade. The extension is not always dicated by the content. An mpv file contains only MPEG video of either version one or two. Similarly there are m4v files which contain MPEG4 video. An mpa file contains either MPEG one or two audio of either layer one two or three. An mpg/mpeg file could be either audio, video, or audio and video, or multiple audio and video. The extension mpg is generic like ogg or avi. There is no ava, avv, oga, or ogv. And similarly you don't often see mpa or mpv. And soon you will not likely see m4a either. Just plain old mp4 files.

[Doom9]

mpeg is currently working on standardising a drm system, which if used by the big players would allow interoperability and competition (and it would be easier to crack if only 1 system would exist )
What makes you think Apple would change their system? A unified standard would let the competition on their player.. I'm pretty confident Apple is no better in that area than Microsoft. The only player you should consider buying is one that does unprotected formats only.

[bond]

Originally posted by Doom9
What makes you think Apple would change their system?hm, i dont think that they will change their system, maybe if the mpeg drm would have existed already at the start of itunes apple would have used it, but now, as you said, they will surely try to profit as much as they can (not supporting other drm systems, as the one from real aso) now that they are in such a good position after the success they have with itunes (and their proprieatary drm system)

The only player you should consider buying is one that does unprotected formats only.exactly, as i wrote above:
drm takes the rights from us, the users, and gives it to the producers.

[wmansir]

I think Apple should open their system eventually. As much as they sell the "hip" image of the iPod/iTunes, market forces will come in to play over the next few years. I'm thinking they will make the same mistakes they did in the PC market, and become niche players in this new market as well. The Job's quote I posted above already signals a move in that direction.

[Neo Neko]

Steve is all that at the moment. But in a few years he will be begging others to let him play with them. Then they will use his words against him.

DRM? Digital Rights Management? Who's rights? Not mine.

[weetbix]

Interestingly enough I know that Hewlett-Packard is to OEM the iPod and release their own branded model.
It is also rumoured that to differentiate from the Apple version, the HP version will support Microsoft Windows Media format for audio as well as the current audio support that is in the iPod.

Apple may not want to support other formats but it looks like other manufacturers are not going to lock themselves out of a particular market segment.

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by weetbix
Interestingly enough I know that Hewlett-Packard is to OEM the iPod and release their own branded model.
It is also rumoured that to differentiate from the Apple version, the HP version will support Microsoft Windows Media format for audio as well as the current audio support that is in the iPod.

Apple may not want to support other formats but it looks like other manufacturers are not going to lock themselves out of a particular market segment.

It's not about competing formats. But competing services. HP has no download service of their own. They will use iTunes etc. Real wants Apple to let real's service function with the iPod and iTunes. Which would in turn draw some customers away from Apples already in the red iTunes service.

[weetbix]

While at this stage HP has no download service, looking at the amount of digital A/V consumer product they have in the pipeline I would expect them to do something to tie consumers further into their brand.
I admit that while it may end up being branded HP, the backend service could be provided by a partner. This is where having both formats would give them some bargaining power to cut a better deal.
I'm sure both Microsoft and Apple would love for a company the size of HP (with both its market share and brand awareness) to promote their format above others.

Originally posted by Neo Neko
Steve is all that at the moment. But in a few years he will be begging others to let him play with them. Then they will use his words against him.
The influence of OEM the product could change this. I can't see HP wanting to lock themselves out of a market place just to place more money in Apple's coffers.
As with most things in the computer industry we probably wont have to wait very long to find out what happens :)


As a side note the current head of R&D (official title of "Executive Vice President and Chief Strategy and Technology Officer") is Shane Robison, who in a prior life was the president and general manager of the Personal Interactive Electronics Division at none other than Apple.