H.264 News from VSS - free AVC decoder and claims to offer realtime encoding

[bond]

as reported on the new homepage from vanguard (http://www.videosoftinc.com/index.html), they now claim to offer a realtime h.264 encoder (without getting into details tough)
also it cant be tested as their encoder is not available for free (they offer a vfw and qt version)
till now vanguard only offered a vfw version of the reference software (so basically nothing special), i dunno if they now rewrote an own encoder from scratch or only tuned the reference (speed optimisations aso...)

what is available for free is a h.264 decoder filter, which you can get here (http://www.videosoftinc.com/decoders.html)

also they offer new sample clips here (http://www.videosoftinc.com/videoclips.html), in "plz god, forgive us, we dont know what we are doing" AVI!
hell, will the mess we know from mpeg-4 asp now continue with h.264 too? why cant these *** use .mp4 or .mpg as the standard specifies!!! mp4 is license free!!! you *** dont have to pay a cent to use it and we user could enjoy interoperability (on software and future hardware) !!!

[Tommy Carrot]

I'm always glad to hear about progression in the h.264 front, but what would be even better if a more or less tuned and optimized encoder would be available. We have now a few decoder filter, but still no encoder. Hopefully Nero will soon release their codec.

Bond, i can feel with you, but i do not agree totally. MP4 container is practically useless if no decent encoder app supports it. A universal encoder/editor utility (like virtualdub) offers much greater flexibility and much more options than when every codec has its own encoder utility, like would be in the case of MP4 support. So right now i prefer VFW until there is a general MP4 encoder/editor which can use external codecs (MP4 support in virtualdub would be nice).

[bond]

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
MP4 container is practically useless if no decent encoder app supports it. A universal encoder/editor utility (like virtualdub) offers much greater flexibility and much more options than when every codec has its own encoder utility, like would be in the case of MP4 support.yeah, a general encoding tool ala virtualdub, but based not on the crappy vfw (maybe on dshow or something similar) would help saving lots of problems caused by vfw/avi atm

but also you shouldnt forget things like commandline encoders, which could come with nice guis aso (i mean rv9 practically also works that way, and its not that bad at all)
so people arent really _that_ limited to vfw/avi as it might appear on first sight

[Doom9]

hmm... baseline and main profile? two pass encoding. Maybe now they feel confident enough to let me test it.

[bond]

there now is a 30days evaluation version available here (http://www.videosoftinc.com/bin/vssh-2_0-win32-eval.exe)

[Tommy Carrot]

Finally something! Thought their performance claims seem to be exaggerated, because i got 4-5 fps with the fastest setting on my athlon 1700+. Or the codec is heavily optimized to P4.

[P0l1m0rph1c]

Tommy Carrot: weird. I am encoding here with the best quality setting, encoding 720×576 material, and i'm having ~4fps.

I'm using a Pentium 4 2 Ghz.

[Tommy Carrot]

With best quality i get about 2-3 fps. The resolution is 720*288.

[P0l1m0rph1c]

In the same material, with fastest setting, i get ~15 fps. :confused:

[ac-chan123]

read this (http://www.videosoftinc.com/performance.html) and you know why.

AC-Chan(Rober Vincenz)

[BoNz1]

Wow, I just encoded a 5 min test using 1 pass best quality. Looks very good IMO. It seems to have some problems with fades and scene changes but all in all looks very good for a first release. At 1000kbps it really has a lot less annoying artifacts than mpeg4 asp does.

[Sagittaire]

Best quality (H264 with bframe) doesn't work for me ... :confused:

Good quality work very well and quality is here ... ;-)

[CruNcher]

ok first test showed and im only going todo a subjective test for now, that it can't compete (for now) at fast and normal vs XviD ASP Extra_Details @ 1977 kb/s only my personal opinion.

Good i have to say ehhmmm i can't see a difference
it missed the target bitratea little in all modes tough.

Best doesnt work for me (closes @ the end of the 1pass)

@ac-chan123 is it possible to use reference software configuration files, is that what the use advanced configuration files checkbox is for ?

[Tommy Carrot]

I made a test with 2-pass best quality setting. The quality is quite good, but i cannot do a direct codec comparison with xvid, because the bitrate distribution clearly favors the low motion scenes (even with 2-pass), so the quality is not constant.

But something is not right here, because 'live encoding' option is barely 2x faster than slowest option, although it should be much faster. Anyone else experienced this behavior, or something is borked here?

[CruNcher]

@Tommy Carrot
5x times faster for me p4 1.8 ghz 640x352

also it looks like their is a memory leak somewhere the 2 time now that 1pass best closed vdubmod without a crash @ encoding
actually best doesn't work @ all it just closes vdubmod in 1pass @ the end hmmm.

here are my settings

cpu feature flags = MMX SSE SSE2
*** rate control: qp I=25 P=28 B=30 [10 45]
------------------------------------------------------- active settings
sym_mode = 1
intra_pred = 0
interlace_mode = 0
direct_mode = 1
poc_type = 0
calc_snr = 0
high_compression_mode = 125
profile_idc = 77
cabac.init_method = 0
cabac.model_num = 0
prep.denoise_level = 0
rc.type = 1
rc.bframes = 1
rc.keyframes = 250
rc.framerate = 300000
rc.reaction = 10
rc.kbps = 1977
rc.qp_intra = 30
rc.qp_inter_p = 32
rc.qp_inter_b = 34
rc.qp_modulation = 0
rc.scene_detect = 50
rc.vbr.auto_qp = 1
rc.vbr.qp_min = 10
rc.vbr.qp_max = 45
rc.vbr.pass = 1
rc.vbr.log_file = "E:\vssh-dualpass.log"
rc.cbr.delay_ms = 1000
me.pel_resolution = 2
me.refine_qpel = 0
me.use_original = 0
me.sad_type = 1
me.subdiv = 63
me.refinement_depth = 100
me.range = 16
me.max_refs = 2
me.use_idr_long_term = 0
slice.mode = 0
slice.param = 0
slice.fmo_type = 0
deblock.flag = 0
deblock.disable = 0
deblock.alpha_c0 = 0
deblock.beta_c0 = 0
-------------------------------------------------------

[ac-chan123]

i don´t know if VSS´s h.264 can use the conf file of the reference implentation of h.264. the link was only about the profile and there speed.

AC-Chan(Robert Vincenz)

[Milkman Dan]

I'm getting 20-27fps in the good quality mode on a 608x240 clip. I'm using an overclocked P4 @ 3.5GHz, memory in dual channel at 200MHz.

Divx in the same machine and clip gives 75fps.

[Selur]

cool did anyone try if e.g. ffdshow and/or the moonlight h264 decoder can also handle vss h264 encoded files ?

Cu Selur
Ps.: not at home (so can't test myself atm.)

[CiNcH]

Does anybody by chance know how multipass encoding in VSoft's H.264 codec works internally resp. what the numbers in the multipass log mean?

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 9
6 8 6 15 13 21 40 96
171 90 77 67 113 95 64 79
58 56 41 8 7 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0

751187 348475 126341
557 547 36

[Doom9]

is it just me or has the decoder download mysteriously disappeared?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Doom9
is it just me or has the decoder download mysteriously disappeared? I looked for it an hour or so ago and could not find it either :(

Cheers

[CruNcher]

@Doom9 & SeeMoreDigital

they changed to a "first register then download" method

http://www.videosoftinc.com/register.php?redirect=/evaluation.html

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by CruNcher
@Doom9 & SeeMoreDigital

they changed to a "first register then download" method

http://www.videosoftinc.com/register.php?redirect=/evaluation.html I...... thank you!

[Doom9]

they changed to a "first register then download" methodWell.. behind that signup page you still get the same donwload options - clips and the encoder evaluation, but no playback filter only download.

[plonk420]

anyone know if and where it plants # of encodes information? ^_^

edit: is it under the whereabouts of VSS?

[Tommy Carrot]

I've made a few tests, and i find it kind of strange that 'good quality' setting gives usally a noticably better result than 'best quality',especially at low bitrates, although its almost twice faster.

The high bitrate performance is not really impressive, i guess because the in-loop filtering. Anyone knows a way to disable it?

[Sagittaire]

Best quality use bframe and Quant for Bframe is too high for me ...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
I've made a few tests, and i find it kind of strange that 'good quality' setting gives usally a noticably better result than 'best quality',especially at low bitrates, although its almost twice faster.

The high bitrate performance is not really impressive, i guess because the in-loop filtering. Anyone knows a way to disable it? Were these 1 or 2 pass encodes?

Originally posted by Sagittaire
Best quality use bframe and Quant for Bframe is too high for me... Are you sure? I've just finished generating some 720x576 2pass video only streams using 'Best Quality' And when I ran the encodes through Sigma's AVIcheck, there was no mention of B-VOP's being in the stream!

Cheers

[Tommy Carrot]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Were these 1 or 2 pass encodes?


2-pass.

Best quality uses b-frames indeed, the virtualdub encoding diagram clearly shows it.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
2-pass.

Best quality uses b-frames indeed, the virtualdub encoding diagram clearly shows it. Thanks for the confirmation!

When using DVD image pixel frame sizes, I've been unable to generate encodes below 855kbps (Gspot) despite setting the encoder to 200kbps!

I'm trying some encodes using the 'fast' setting, to see if it makes any difference.

Cheers

[CruNcher]

@ Tommy Carrot try playbacking it with a older mplayer version that hasn't inloop filtering support works here :)

sym_mode = 1
intra_pred = 0
interlace_mode = 0
direct_mode = 1
poc_type = 0
calc_snr = 0
high_compression_mode = 125
profile_idc = 77
cabac.init_method = 0
cabac.model_num = 0
prep.denoise_level = 0
rc.type = 1
rc.bframes = 1
rc.keyframes = 250
rc.framerate = 300000
rc.reaction = 10
rc.kbps = 1977
rc.qp_intra = 30
rc.qp_inter_p = 32
rc.qp_inter_b = 34
rc.qp_modulation = 0
rc.scene_detect = 50
rc.vbr.auto_qp = 1
rc.vbr.qp_min = 10
rc.vbr.qp_max = 45
rc.vbr.pass = 1
rc.vbr.log_file = "E:\vssh-dualpass.log"
rc.cbr.delay_ms = 1000
me.pel_resolution = 2
me.refine_qpel = 0
me.use_original = 0
me.sad_type = 1
me.subdiv = 63
me.refinement_depth = 100
me.range = 16
me.max_refs = 2
me.use_idr_long_term = 0
slice.mode = 0
slice.param = 0
slice.fmo_type = 0
deblock.flag = 0
deblock.disable = 0
deblock.alpha_c0 = 0
deblock.beta_c0 = 0

you can't change that much here some settings are bound to the profile_idc = profile level setting for example b-frames only work with profile_idc = 77 see h264 documents and will couse crashes for example with profile_idc = 66

@Sagittaire

you can change b-frames quantization here should not cause any crashes
rc.qp_inter_b = 34 but dont forget h264 quants don't scale exactly like mpeg-4 also a lower quantization max then rc.vbr.qp_max = 45 could achive the results you want.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
When using DVD image pixel frame sizes, I've been unable to generate encodes below 855kbps (Gspot) despite setting the encoder to 200kbps! Sorted! It seems the VSS codec does not like the bitrate being changed on the second pass only. You have to generate both fist and second passess at the same set bitrate... nevermind.

Still, the encodes don't look too bad!

Cheers

[evilr00t]

Anyone have the playback filter only download?

I've got the old version of their codec; anyone mind running comparisons?

Old link nuked.

[ac-chan123]

This not the old H.264 Codec by VSS. It´s an own Codec by VSS. The old h.264 Codec can allready downloaded at there old Hompage http://www.vsofts.com/codec/h264.html.( as VfW and commandline Version)

AC-Chan(Robert Vincenz)

[evilr00t]

Originally posted by ac-chan123
This not the old H.264 Codec by VSS. It´s an own Codec by VSS. The old h.264 Codec can allready downloaded at there old Hompage http://www.vsofts.com/codec/h264.html.( as VfW and commandline Version)

AC-Chan(Robert Vincenz)

Yeah, I know, but I want a quality comparison between the old and the new from someone who knows how to do one.

The old version (VSSH264Codec10beta.exe) can't be downloaded anymore on their site (I mean, I can't find it anymore)
It doesn't have a timebomb, and doesn't have twopass or B-frame support (http://www.vsofts.com/codec/images/vssh264-settings.gif)
(which reportedly sucks on the new version)

http://www.vsofts.com/codec/h264.html brings up the info on their old codec (calling it their "final version"). Then, if you click on the "download" link, it goes to http://www.videosoftinc.com/downloads.html =D

[ac-chan123]

i have yesterday downloaded the last(prefinal) version. So i can send the last Version befor final or upload it somewehre.

AC-Chan(Robert Vincenz)

[Joe Fenton]

I downloaded their 720x480 at 1350 kbps sample. I think XviD does a far better job. Maybe it's just a bad encode, but don't you usually put your BEST examples up for people to try out? This clip would NOT induce me to use their codecs.

[Tommy Carrot]

Actually it's not that bad, just the in-loop filtering destroys the fine details at high bitrates, so that would be great if there would be a possibility to disable it. And i miss constant quality option or something similar to xvid's curve compression.

At low bitrates, it's definitely better than mpeg4, and imo better than realvideo too.

[Bulletproof]

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot

At low bitrates, it's definitely better than mpeg4, and imo better than realvideo too.

What about VP6?

[GolovachLena]

Originally posted by Bulletproof
What about VP6?

IMHO, it almost matches the quality that VP6 gives, but at considerably lower bitrates. And even the clearness of the resulting movie is a bit better than that of VP6.
But the codec isn't much stable, i have repeating crashes while playing or simple navigating the movie.

[Andrey]

Hmm.
Seems that .h264 is a technology worth to try...
Q for those who visited CeBit:
Does anybody see or hear about h264 encoders there ?
If h264 is chosen as codec for the upcoming new standart replacing DVD, consumer software encoders should appear soon...

Offtopic:
Lena Golovach - I like your nick... :D

[bond]

Originally posted by Andrey
Does anybody see or hear about h264 encoders there ?afaik vss, mainconcept and ahead are going to present their h.264 stuff there
dunno about other companies like envivio aso...

[Andrey]

:(
Ok. Thanks for the info, anyway !
At least, Ahead is going to produce something rather usable I hope...

[GolovachLena]

Originally posted by Andrey
Does anybody see or hear about h264 encoders there ?


I'm using VSofts H264 codec v 2.0.2.1. It's trial for 30 days but decoder stated as free. Don't know what it will be because I'm using it only for 4 days :)
Anyways, i'm very pleased by results, quality is nearly awesome. Sometimes it's hard to predict correct bitrate, though. General formulae for Divx/Xvid doesn't seem to be working. In some cases i had to decrease calculated bitrate upto 15-20% to achieve desired file size.

[Selur]

did anyone figure out how to use the advanced settings and which advanced settings there are ?

alexcyn posted over url=http://forum.vsofts.com/viewtopic.php?t=74]here[/url] that one could disable the inloop-filtering by using deblock.disable = 1 in a config file.

I assumed if I write a txt file with deblock.disable = 1 in it and load it, it should do the job. It didn't. Okay it disables inloop filtering, but it seems liek it's disabling all other advanced options too, since when I loaded an empty text file the same effect occurred.

Cu Selur

[Tommy Carrot]

Cruncher posted a config file earlier in this thread, i'm assuming it contains all the important settings. A full description would be very useful though (especially how can i override the rate control to accept constant quantizers :)).

[CruNcher]

@Tommy Carrot

rc.type = 0

should do the trick

[Tommy Carrot]

Thanks man!

BTW, to disable the in-loop filtering, both

deblock.flag
deblock.disable

must be set to 1. In my opinion the high bitrate (>1 Mbps) quality will be much better this way.

[Selur]

thx, I'll look into it

but isn't it strange that an empty text file is also disabling the settings?

Cu Selur

[BoNz1]

BTW ffdshow will play back h264 now use CruNcher's ffdshow build from today ;).