When money is no option - what's the best disk?

[Chu]

Hello all. I have some stuff to burn off to DVD-R that I want to last for at least 10 years. I am willing to spend as much as it takes for this project to get the highest quality disks I can, so what am I looking for? The last time I needed uber-quality TDK Toughdisks were the best out there, but has anything changed in the last couple months? I assume by now Mitsui should have at least one factory converted for DVD-R production.

-Chu

EDIT: Errr, guess they're call "Armor Plated DVD-R" now instead of toughdisk

[mudda_t]

"best"...to each his own!
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For my money, Mitsui or Taiyo Yuden (TY).
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A few places sell mitsui dvd-r, just google.
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EDIT:
A quote from a few finds "When stored at room temperature, Mitsui DVD-R discs have an expected lifespan in excess of 100 years."

[theReal]

I'd say Verbatim, Mitsui or Tayo Yuden (I recently got a batch of Verbatim that were Tayo Yuden actually, usually they're made by Mitsubishi though)

However, if you look at this picture (http://www.peisch.de/_nierle_pic/2003a.jpg) of a Mitsui Advanced Media DVD-R, I'd rather buy Verbatim (I don't know but since Mitsui changed their brand name to MAM I'm not so sure about their superior quality anymore - what I find most disturbing is that they won't use this scratch-resistant "diamond-coating" on all of the surface anymore)

[LB]

Originally posted by theReal
I'd say Verbatim, Mitsui or Tayo Yuden (I recently got a batch of Verbatim that were Tayo Yuden actually, usually they're made by Mitsubishi though)

However, if you look at this picture (http://www.peisch.de/_nierle_pic/2003a.jpg) of a Mitsui Advanced Media DVD-R, I'd rather buy Verbatim (I don't know but since Mitsui changed their brand name to MAM I'm not so sure about their superior quality anymore - what I find most disturbing is that they won't use this scratch-resistant "diamond-coating" on all of the surface anymore)

Glad you brought this up. Mitsui's OLD DVDrs (2x) were amazing! Almost as scratch resistant as TDK's armor plated discs, plus the guaranteed life was in excess of 300 years :D Even better, when they were phasing them out I was lucky enough to get 300 of them for .99$ a pop at tigerdirect :D :D :D I only use them for stuff that I WANT to keep safe for the future. I'd use TDK's now, but they only guarantee data up to 1yr... So what's the point in having scratch-proof discs, if the data doesn't last? Anyway, getting to the "meat" of this post...

I bought some more mitsui dvd-rs not to long ago. Their new 4x ones. But, I found that they were SOOO incredibly prone to scratches. Hell, they were easier to scratch than riteks! And that pissed me off. So, I contacted their engineering department, and was able to speak with the head of engineering at MAM-A :D And get this, he told me that he was totally unaware of any scratch issues with the discs... but he did say that the OLD 2x discs that were virtually scratch-proof were made in MAM-A's Japan factory (mental equation -> Japanese = high quality), whereas these new 4x discs were made in their French factory (no comment) with a different type of lacquer! He said both formulas were supposed to be equivilant, but apparantly from what I experienced, they definitely were not. So I gave him the ID #'s for each disc and he said he'd definitely look into it, but also noted that (if my memory serves me correctly) they have a new USA plant opening up, which will be using the same lacquer as the Japanese folks, and that you could identify them by a certain # on the discs. I'll have to contact him and find out that number, and also for a status update on his conclusions regarding my comparison of the scratchability of the French v. Japan discs, we contacted each other back in October, so I'll have to follow up regarding what he found out.

So anyway, at the moment I wouldn't buy any Mitsui DVDRs. What would I buy? Well, I had really good experience with branded pioneer discs. Considering Pioneer is the founder (right?) of the DVD-R standard, their discs should last a long time, and I also found their scratchability rating to be quite high. Not as high as the old Mitsui 2x's, but a lot higher than Ritek's. I'm still warey of TDK though... if the company can't guarantee data beyond 1yr, then I wouldn't put much faith in them. I also have some problems reading existing TDK CD-Rs from a few years back.

Edit: oh, and as for that diamond-coating. wasn't that only on cd-r? in any event, they haven't changed anything regarding their DVD-r line, except for the lacquer formula + quantity used. But I will say, even though they are easily scratched at this point in time, they will store your data for a good 300yrs with no problem if you keep them "protected" (i.e., unscratched).

[theReal]

Edit: oh, and as for that diamond-coating. wasn't that only on cd-r? I know it from CDRs (the Mitsui SG used to have that). But why not use it on DVD-Rs as well.

btw. some time ago Mitsui "Golden Dye" were virtually the same CDRs as Mitsui SG - I ordered a pack of Golden Dye 700MB CDRs recently and was quite disappointed with how they look (that means: whole areas of the disc, wherever there's letters, are not coated and therefore not scratch protected, also the rim doesn't look so much better than that of most other CDRs. They're good discs and weren't expensive, but they somehow lack this "superiority" they used to have)

[LB]

Originally posted by theReal
I know it from CDRs (the Mitsui SG used to have that). But why not use it on DVD-Rs as well.

btw. some time ago Mitsui "Golden Dye" were virtually the same CDRs as Mitsui SG - I ordered a pack of Golden Dye 700MB CDRs recently and was quite disappointed with how they look (that means: whole areas of the disc, wherever there's letters, are not coated and therefore not scratch protected, also the rim doesn't look so much better than that of most other CDRs. They're good discs and weren't expensive, but they somehow lack this "superiority" they used to have)

Well I think you got a little confused. The dye is not gold, no dye is. A cdr is obviously built up of different layers. The base is a clear polycarbonate disc. This is the same thing you see when you buy like a 100 pack of discs and the first disc is a clear one. It's simply an untreated disc. Then, various layers go ontop of this:

1st layer - dye
There are 3 different dye formulations for CDRs at the present time. A

Azo - being the lowest quality and is a blue color
Cyanine - which is not much better than Azo, and is green in color
Phthalocyanine - which MAM-A developed "in-house" and is the only company to use it.

Basically, when a disc is exposed to higher humidity and heat, its lifespan drastically decreases. Not so with a MAM-A disc - it's quoted to withstand 100days in "DIRECT" sunlight outdoors with no data loss. the other dye formulations last 3days before data loss is experienced. Obviously no one lays their CDR/DVDRs outside on the patio for that amount of time, but it's an accelerated example of the quality difference between the three dye

2nd layer - reflective layer
Obviously CD/DVD players use a laser and need a certain amount of light reflected back which carries the data. Gold layers have the highest reflectivity rate, meaning if you scratch up your gold disc, your reader will have an easier time reading the data than it would a scratched silver disc. Also there is a misconception regarding GOLD and SILVER. This is NOT the top of the disc. The top of the disc is just some shiny gold/silver foil and has nothing to do with reflectivity or any other functional characterisitc of the disc. So irregardless of whether you have letters, gold, silver, whatever on the top of your disc, it's not the same thing as this 2nd layer we're talking about here.

3rd layer - lacquer
This is a substance applied overtop the gold/silver layer and also on the edges of the disc. It serves two purposes: (1) protection from scratches and other physical damage; (2) an airtight sealant against humidity. Cheap discs skimp on the lacquer and the edges of the disc will appear VERY smooth. A smooth edge is NOT an indication of a high-quality disc. Rather, it's typically an indication of a cheap disc which does not have an air-tight seal and thus will most likely suffer data loss in the next few years. When you purchase a disc you want look for lots of goop around the edges, indicating a good seal.

4th layer - diamond coat
This layer is another added protection from scratches, and is only available on MAM-A discs (patent). The reason I was told they do not use this type of layer on DVDRs is that the DVD standard is not "identical" to the DVD-R standard nor the DVD+R standard, and thus it's already difficult to achieve high compatibility with +-R discs, and a diamond coat on the discs would render the discs unreadable by more dvd players than MAM-A would like. This also is the reason for the switch from GOLD DVD-R layers to SILVER DVD-R layers. The dye didn't change, it's still the same old high-quality MAM-A dye, so you're still going to get the incredible lifespan out of the discs, but you'll simply be reduced to a silver layer. But NO OTHER DVD-R or DVD+R uses a GOLD layer anyway, so it's nothing to be worried about. Oh, and a slight interjection regarding TDK's armor plated discs. They don't use a diamond coat obviously (patent issues) but I believe they simply use a different formulation of lacquer. As soon as MAM-A get's it's act together regarding their lacquer issue on the 4x discs, they will be right back next to TDK's armor plated in terms of scratchability.


Hope that was able to clear stuff up on the basics of CDR/DVDRs.

EDIT: Oh, and regarding Mitsui's "changeing" their name to MAM-A, I don't believe that's entirely correct. Again, I could be wrong here, but I'm 95% sure that in europe and japan they have always used the name MAM-A, and for marketing or whatever reasons they didn't initially use that name here in the states. Now, their website has always been MAM-A, but as to whether they have changed their USA name to MAM-A, I'm not sure about that. But nothing's changed.

[theReal]

Well I think you got a little confused. The dye is not gold, no dye is.
I know - the so called "Golden Dye" discs are a combination of phtalocyanine and silver - but Mitsui calls them "Golden Dye" (don't ask me why, but that's their brand name...)


The top of the disc is just some shiny gold/silver foil and has nothing to do with reflectivity or any other functional characterisitc of the disc.??????? All I know is that when I scratch that shiny foil at the top of the disc, I can see through the scratch - there is no reflection left and the disc is unreadable (that's why I like some kind of protection layer on that foil surface)

[LB]

Originally posted by theReal
??????? All I know is that when I scratch that shiny foil at the top of the disc, I can see through the scratch - there is no reflection left and the disc is unreadable (that's why I like some kind of protection layer on that foil surface)

Ahh, I understand what you meant now. Well for future reference, if you want to make sure you get some sort of protection on the "top" of the disc, so that foil doesn't come off, buy "branded" discs. Usually all branded discs have a logo and other layers of stuff which act as protection for the top layer. :) You probably just bought unbranded ones.

[theReal]

I bought branded MAM "Golden Dye" - most of the surface is actually coated, but the letters on the surface are formed by just not having any coating there (in comparison good ol' Mitsui SG are coated all over, PLUS an extra print)


btw. I just saw these Mitsui Golden Dye say "Made in the E.U." - so I guess this is also from the French factory...

[LB]

Old thread but worth an update. I have found that Mitsui actually stopped manufacturing DVD media and is focusing solely on making their dye. They have sold their company to another company, and that's the reason for the name change you see everywhere from Mitsui -> MAM-A. But there's more... and oh does it get worse. This "new" company is ditching all the quality checks that Mitusi had in place and is now making crap -R discs. Worse than Ritek in most instances (don't get me wrong, Ritek is a great disc, but nowhere near the quality of an old GOLD Mitsui disc). So now, MAM-A discs suck.

But alas, there's even more to this horrid story. Find it interesting that MAM-A now offers +R and -+RW discs? Well apparantly they are simply re-packaged optodiscs with the MAM-A label slapped on. I almost teared up when I heard that. So stay far away, far far away, from MAM-A discs now. Your best bet is to get ahold of TY media as that is the current champion today.

[MrNoogies]

Oh wow. Just wow. Am I glad I read this thread... thanks so much to everyone who posted here, and especially you LB.

[LB]

If you guys want the BEST disc money can buy, then check out this HERE (http://www.futurepowerpc.com/scripts/details.asp?PRDCODE=RSPX-SP8XDVD005). I ran a PI test on them and get a MAX PI error of 8 :eek: !!! Can't beat the price either!

[alexnoe]

PI sum 8 even < 8 :D (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/DVD/pio108_scan_mcc002-00_at_8x_all.png)

However, if price doesn't matter, you might want to have a look at TDK armor plated media. You need sand paper and steel wool (http://www.cdrlabs.com/articles/index.php?articleid=23) to damage it :)

[LB]

Originally posted by alexnoe
PI sum 8 even < 8 :D (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/PlexTools_Prof_Scans/DVD/pio108_scan_mcc002-00_at_8x_all.png)

However, if price doesn't matter, you might want to have a look at TDK armor plated media. You need sand paper and steel wool (http://www.cdrlabs.com/articles/index.php?articleid=23) to damage it :)

@alex

Looks like you did a SUM1 test, and not a SUM8 test...?

Also, while tdk media is great in regards to scratchability, that doesn't mean it's longlevity is also good.

[alexnoe]

LB: no, that is PIsum8 and PIF

[PhillipWyllie]

If cash is no object, DVR-+R for Authoring is your choise( plus you'll have to buy a suitable burner). TDK's £100 for 10!

[windtrader]

I tried running PI test on Pioneer A05 using both Nero and DVDInfo. It seems the drive does not support PI tests. Is there any tests that can check the quality or similar to PI of a burned disc?