CCE and Frame Rate Question

[Caspar]

Ok, I am a newbie at using CCE, so I have read the guide on using DVDMaestro and Getting the Best Out of CCE. Parts of the CCE guide is very confusing any clearification on the questions below would be appreciated.

Note: I have searched for key words relating to my questions, but only found unrelated material.

Here's what Bitrate Viewer shows me:
Num. of picture read: 31
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9801600 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Interlaced

Source is NTSC at 29.97 frames. Frame rate unchanged after passing through DVD2avi. There is a section in the CCE guide were I am instructed to import the chapter information from ChapterXtractor to the .ecl file. It says to set the frame rate as 23976 in ChapterXtractor if the source is NTSC. My source is 29.97fps unchanged, why do I have to enter 23.976fps? There's also a section on pull down, why would one require to do this if the source is 29.97fps to begin with? Does CCE encode at 23.976fps for NTSC material?

The guide is very confusing, it doesn't explain any of this.

[Karovaldas]

There is plenty of informtion in the guides about when to use the Video\Force Film option in DVD2AVI (in the cases where the original source is progresseive or more than 95% film). Judging from your information you do have a progressive source.

Recreate your DVD2AVI project and use Video\Force Film.

[Caspar]

Errr... ok, just a little hint here. No where did I ask how to use Forced Film in DVD2avi, and I have encoded enough mpeg4s from DVD sources to know what it does and I have never used it because I know what it does. The Forced Film function within DVD2avi is not the best at decimating etc, so I have always used decomb for deinterlace and decimate. The source in this case is interlaced, notice the information given by Bitrate Viewer, and a simple run with DVD2avi confirms this.

[r6d2]

If source is interlaced as reported by BR Viewer, it does not mean it is interlaced. It may be telecined, in which case Force Filming is the way to go.

If it is pure interlaced, then stick to 30 fps and don't correct the chapter points. Also resize interlaced to avoid artifacts. Don't trust everything BR Viewer or DVD2AVI say. Take a look at this (http://www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm) guide, and don't forget the search button. You'll learn to use it to your good, but it may take time.

Cheers.

[hendrix]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73617

read the rules...no cross posting - forum rule #8

[insane822]

Originally posted by Caspar
Errr... ok, just a little hint here. No where did I ask how to use Forced Film in DVD2avi, and I have encoded enough mpeg4s from DVD sources to know what it does and I have never used it because I know what it does. The Forced Film function within DVD2avi is not the best at decimating etc, so I have always used decomb for deinterlace and decimate. The source in this case is interlaced, notice the information given by Bitrate Viewer, and a simple run with DVD2avi confirms this.


Obviously you don't know what it does, "not the best at decimating"?
heh.

[Caspar]

@r6d2
Thanks for the information, the frame rate for the chapters is very helpful.

@hendrix
I didn't cross post, sure the thread I posted at the authoring section has similar questions, but the main point in that post is asking questions on the use of Pulldown.exe

@insane822
Obviously I do, Forced Film for DVD2avi is the poor man's method of doing IVTC. Even if I had a film source at 99% I wouldn't use it because there's something called decomb. IVTC involves decimating from 29.976fps to 23.976fps. "Forced Film function within DVD2avi is not the best at decimating etc", do you have any idea what etc. means? Please refrain from posting unnconstructive comments.

[Karovaldas]

Well, now that you mention "unconstructive comments," I would like let you know that your answer to my attempt to help you was very unconstructive and insulting. I elected to keep quiet, but now you are jumping on other people. How about practicing some courtesy?

And, "NO" I don't know what "etc." means in your post. Would you care to elaborate? What evidence you are using when you claim that DVD2AVI's "Force Film" option is a "poor man's method for doing IVTC?" I do it all the time and would like to know if there is an alternative with better ... well, better what?

Thanks.

[r6d2]

Please, guys, cool down and remember R4. Don't start a flame war or you will be striked by someone of the mod team.

@Caspar, please notice I edited my post above. I replaced "anything" by "everything". I just noticed the typo.

On the Force Filming matter, of course you are free to choose Decomb, but actually, AFAIK, Force Filming is much more accurate than IVTC when the source is a proper telecine, and that is what DVD2AVI detects when the 95% film threshold is passed.

[Caspar]

@Karovaldas
Like I mentioned in my first reply to you, none of my questions are related to Forced Film in anyway. I thought there was confusion in my questions so I reiterated the fact that Force Film has nothing to do with what I was asking.

My source is not pure IVTC. It contains NTSC < 10% and Film < 80%. My opinion on Forced Film as a 'poor man's method for IVTC' is based on the fact that I have no encountered any pure IVTC sources. All my sources have been anime episode DVDs (for mpeg4 and mpeg2 encoding), so it simply won't work. I don't see any point in arguing the matter any further because my questions had _nothing_ to do with Forced Film to start with.

None the less, thanks for the input.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Caspar
My source is not pure IVTC.There is no such a thing. Sources may be telecined, or pure interlaced, or an hybrid of both, as detailed on the guide I recommended you to read.
My opinion on Forced Film as a 'poor man's method for IVTC' is based on the fact that I have no encountered any pure IVTC sources.You won't find any of something that does not exist.

Normally movies are telecined. Force Filming is not poor man's IVTC. It is the adequate IVTC for films.

The kind of source you are familiar with, and which you just revealed, seems to be hybrid, so the force filming statements do not apply to them. But OTOH, if you IVTC to 24fps an hybrid source you will lose non duplicate information, so it is better to keep it interlaced.

The information you provided was general enough to get the answers you got. You have some basic understanding of the matter, but it is generally better to recognise oneself's ignorance in order to get out of it. There is nothing wrong with being mistaken, and it makes no sense to insist on something that has been pointed out to you clearly and in good faith.

[Kedirekin]

You know, I think we have a weakness in our terminology. We use the terms telecine and pulldown (as in RFF/TFF pulldown) interchangably, and we probably shouldn't. RFF/TFF pulldown can be undone perfectly by FORCE FILM, but try FORCE FILM on a non-RFF/TFF telecine video and it screws things up something horrible.

I think the guide was written to illustrate one example of how to do things rather than as a one-size-fits-all solution. I think the part about setting the frame rate to 23.976 in ChapterExtractor was written assuming you converted the video to 23.976 fps (either through FORCE FILM or IVTC) because that is what was done when writing the guide. Earlier parts of the guide refer DCT type: Frame (i.e. FILM), and if you look closely you'll see the duration (2:16:21) and the frame count (196155) correspond to 23.976 fps.

This also explains why there is a section on pulldown. Since the video was encoded at 23.976 fps, you need to run pulldown to add the RRF/TFF flags so it'll play back at a proper 29.97 fps.

Don't let it confuse you. It sounds like you're smart enough to adjust things for your specific needs.