Problem capturing NTSC with TV2000 XP expert

[simdavid]

Hi,

I just bought this Leadek Winfast TV2000 Expert. Apparently, this the conexant chipset on this card is CX 23881 which means it works great for PAL not for NTSC becos CX 23883 is for NTSC. I live in South Africa so this card was mean to work for PAL in South Africa.

My last card was Lifeview Flyvideo 3000 and was great for both NTSC and PAL and it work pretty straight forward. This expert card display black and white in NTSC and funny lines at the bottom of the screen. It will display nicely with no problems in PAL. So the story is I can't capture or watch NTSC on this card. And yes my VCR can display both correctly and I capture both NTSC and PAL with my previous Lifeview.

So anybody using this card and chipset series is CX23881 and having NTSC issue please tell me what I can do.

I use the Winfast PVR software and even though I had it source put to NTSC. It doesn't work.

So in short this is a PAL card and is there a way to make it work in NTSC?

[Arachnotron]

Hi Simdavid,

I own an Hauppauge card with this chip (CX23881). I can cap both NTSC and PAL with it.

But TV is a different story. Tuners are mostly fixed to one region. (there are exceptions). But capping external sources should work with both.

You did switch the card to NTSC on the decoder tab?

With your old Lifeview Flyvideo 3000 this might not have been neccesary, since some cards with Philips SAA7134 chips (not all) are autodetect for the TV system so they switch automatically.

[edit] I believe the main difference between the CX23881 and CX23883 has to do with sound decoding (the 83 supports BTSC with dbx stereo Decode). Again, this should only be relevant for the on-board TV tuner.

[edit2] you did use a true NTSC source? Because if you played back a NTSC tape in a "NTSC playback" capable PAL deck, the output is PAL_60 NOT NTSC.
Most SAA7134 cards accept PAL60, but sadly most CX23881 cards don't. A driver issue, since the chip itself has no problem with it.

[simdavid]

Hi Arachnotron,

You actually hit the nail on the spot and indeed this is my problem. The VCR I'm using out NTSC PB on PAL TV thus outputting PAL_60. I can confirm this since Dscaler output PAL_60 and I have no problem with it at all but I can't capture on Dscaler.

You did switch the card to NTSC on the decoder tab?

Unfortunately there is no switch on the decoder tab or the physical card to make it NTSC. Nothing at all unless I open the cover on the decoder tab and check whether is there one? There will void any warranty isn't it.

What can I do now to make the card accept PAL_60 signal?

[Arachnotron]

What can I do now to make the card accept PAL_60 signal?

The short and answer is: very little.

The long answer:

I actually own both an SAA7134 card and a CX23881 card. I still use the philips, precisely for this reason.

To get the CX23881 to do PAL_60 needs a change in the driver. And for some reason, Conexant does not include the option in it's reference drivers. Since manufacturers use the reference drivers to create their own with minimal changes beside putting their own name in, the problem remains.

The BT878, the CX23881's predecessor suffers from the same problem, only someone programmed his own driver for it (BTWincap) which can do PAL_60.

So you have four options:
- buying another device
- get a true NTSC deck that output's a real NTSC signal (difficult)
- start pestering the manufacturer of the card to modify the driver to include the PAL_60 option
- start hoping someone writes his own driver for the CX23881 OR that the BTWincap driver is modified to include CX23881 support (it does not at the moment, no idea if it ever will)

Dscaler uses it's own internal driver to bypass the manufacturers driver, which is why it can display PAL_60. Sadly, it cannot cap.

[simdavid]

Thank you Arachnotron for this quick enlightenment. I've been messing with it for 3 days and so the answers actually lies in driver not outputting PAL_60 signal.

Just a question, having both the 9 bit and 10 bit card together, which output the better quality? I did not find any noticeable different except that the 10-bit seems more saturated with colour in default setting. In term of clarity and sharpness, i can't compare since i dun have the lifeview card anymore. Will you tell me your experiences?

I may need to buy a myself another Lifeview again for the meanwhile.

[Arachnotron]

Just a question, having both the 9 bit and 10 bit card together, which output the better quality? I did not find any noticeable different except that the 10-bit seems more saturated with colour in default setting. In term of clarity and sharpness, i can't compare since i dun have the lifeview card anymore. Will you tell me your experiences?

I must say I never found any big differences while capping full res.

Philips has the reputation to be less sharp then say the BT878, but I have not found this to be the case. Judging picture quality by 'sharpness' on a computer screen is a very tricky thing to do. There are many tricks to fool the eye, and card builders know them.

Cap chips can artificially enhance sharpness by amplifying certain higher frequencies (peaking filter), which may make the cap look better while in fact the other one is more true to the source. If a card uses such a filter and when depends on the driver.

Also, these chips can filter higher frequencies to reduce noise, but again at the cost of detail. What the cut-off is and at which resolution such a filter kicks in is also a driver issue. Often this goes in steps: no filtering between full res and half res, filtering between half and a quarter, more filtering below.

If you cap at lower rest using two cards, they may deploy different filters at that point. Go a few pixels lower, and suddenly the caps look the same again.

Also, there can be differences between manufacturers. Philips includes the analogue anti-aliassing filter in the chip, while conexant does not. This leaves it up to the card manufacturer to design the filter. My Hauppauge card has a low-pass filter set at 6.75 MHz before the chip. A manufacturer could decide to put one with a lower cut-off in front of it. Less noise, but at the expense of detail. Or he could use bad components.

So after this long answer, my short one is: provided you cap high (probably 704x480 for the philips) there should not be that much of a difference. But the final test must be done with cards from the brand you are actually going to use.
By the way: I would leave the various sliders of the philips at default, and do any corrections to the color in post processing.

[simdavid]

Thanks for the insight, I never knew this much myself since I have never used a BT878 chip b4.

Cheers and see you around in the forum.

[simdavid]

Thanks for the insight, I never knew this much myself since I have never used a BT878 chip b4.

Cheers and see you around in the forum.