QuEnc 0.51 (AVS->M2V/M1V Encoder) [Archive]

Nic

17th March 2004, 15:40

@Amnon82: Please dont use this thread to advertise your GUI, as nice as it is. Mencoder uses libavcodec, so does QuEnc. So the quality will be the same, however the options im using may vary somewhat to MEncoders. i.e comparing the two is pointless, but if you have some nice options for to try/add, feel free to share them.

@Paced: Hmmm, concerning, I havent noticed these, might be how im outputing the frames to the encoder. (ill test here and check, thanks for the feedback). Oh, and with respect to field based encoding, it definitely has options I could use, not sure what will be best though. Ill test it out & get back to you. Oh, and I dont have any plans as yet for it, just whipped it up to offer it to jdobbs....
(Edit: Yup, just spotted it, something's not right, good eyes :) )

@Asmodeus: Yup should be the same as ffvfw, both use the same library. Yup, ill add an advanced options dialog to set the number of B-Frames (2), GOP Size (12), etc (brackets indictate what it is set to now)

@DarkNite: Yup trellis :) Helps alot too, but slows it down quite a bit.

@vhelp: Well dont expect too much, but for the price, it's hard to beat ;)

-Nic

vhelp

17th March 2004, 15:48

Thank you Nic.

I respect you and your work, and always look forward to it (and others
all around the many forums :)

And, please keep up the good work.
OH, yeah, not effense, that RED looks..hmm.. ahhh, it's not so bad hehe..

Be Good,
-vhelp

Nic

17th March 2004, 15:50

"OH, yeah, not effense, that RED looks..hmm.. ahhh, it's not so bad hehe"
lol...Ok, Im going to make it so you can change the colors from the advanced options too :P

vmesquita

17th March 2004, 15:54

Nic,

Congratulations for the great idea! I have found a workaround to use mencoder (which is also libavcodec based) with avisynth (http://kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9078), but doing this right easily with no makeavis in a 700 kb executable is really awesome. I was really looking for a free command-line encoding app with AVs support to integrate in my free tool DIKO as an alternative to CCE, and looks like you made my dream come true. :D
I can't wait to get home and test!

EDIT: I downloaded and run, altrought I don't have nothing to encode here at the university. :) The interface is very simple and functional! I only miss 2 things: use a custom matrix and define GOP lenght. Could this be implemented?

vhelp

17th March 2004, 16:04

Hi Nic,

I'm back already. Hope you don't mind my posting an issue w/ my
opening up an .AVS scrip.

Here is what I'm doing, and maybe you can help me ??

* plain .AVI file (dvd source: VFAPI'ed to vdub, saved as .AVI file)
* vdub opens this plain .AVI file and frameserve as .VDR file.
* my .AVS script opens it:
* 01.Film 23.976 fps.(convertTOyv12).avs

x="d:\01.00.vdr"
segmentedAVISource(x)
assumeFrameBased()
convertTOyv12()

* open in your app, QuEnc(01.Film 23.976 fps.(convertTOyv12).avs)

After performing the above steps, it issus an error:
-------------------
Error
[!] Could not open Video Codec
-------------------

Nic, I'm sorry, but there is a reason why I go this laborous route in
feeding my source files for a final encode. Please understand me for
this. But, I never have problems with color space or anything else,
and that's another reason I use this route.

Also, I'm using another frameserve alternative, "makeAVS" but it was
not used in the above process.

Can you help me out with the above error ?? thanks.
-vhelp
EDIT: this process (above) opens up fine when used w/ vdub, just
not w/ QuEnc yet.

Nic

17th March 2004, 16:07

@vhelp: ill check that it can read that FPS correctly, also what was the size of the video (resolution) ?

ps
EDIT: Just checked....If I do a AVS with AssumeFPS(23.976), it didnt like it. (dont have any MPEGs with that frame rate here, so had to use AssumeFPS). I've put in a hack to make it work. (I hope). The thing is the FPS is not really 23.976, it's 24000/1001 and if libavcodec doesnt get exactly that it crys...so ive got to detect it and force it.

-Nic

vmesquita

17th March 2004, 16:18

Nic,

Looks like you missed my question because I edited the message. :) Could you add custom matrix and GOP support in a future release? :confused:

vhelp

17th March 2004, 16:30

Nic,

ok, when I feed that same script into vdub, and check it's information,
it tells me that it is using the "ATI YUV12 format codec".

Thanks again,
-vhelp

tyee

17th March 2004, 16:50

Great app Nic! I'm trying to test it but am also getting this --

Error
[!] Could not open Video Codec

I'm just feeding a regular .avs with a 720*480 dvd source. VirtualDub cannot open the script either. I do have ConvertToYV12() at the end. Do I need to install a Divx or Xvid codec to make this work?

tyee

Nic

17th March 2004, 17:36

Ok here is 0.3:
http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

This has an updated ffmpeg version, a fix for decimal framerates (such as NTSC), speed increase, file size decrease (now around 650kb), as well as minor bug fix.

New version will have the extra options...

-Nic

@tyee: No it doesn't require any codecs, it didn't work because of the framerate issue which is fixed in this release, please re-download and try again.

@vmesquita: Yes & Yes ;)

vmesquita

17th March 2004, 17:39

EDIT: Looks like Nic was faster and my FFVFW tip has nothing to do with your problem, so I removed. :)

@Nic
This is great news! Please keep the good work. :D

vhelp

17th March 2004, 17:47

Nic,

FYI and FWIW..
I got it to finally encode (was 720x480 source) but I added in a
* AssumeFPS(24)

..before the YV12 filters, and it encoded (3fps) but that's because of
my setup. Anyways, this was found before you updated your version.
I'll D/L it now :)

I'll let you know how v0.3 comes out w/ my give setup from my earlier
setup.

-vhelp

Mr_Khyron

17th March 2004, 18:09

Can you use QuEnc to make VCD mv1 streams not xVCD ?

vhelp

17th March 2004, 18:14

Nic,

Here is my latest update w/ my previous script problem and your v0.3

The good news is, it's working w/out the AssumeFPS(24) which is
great. Thanks for fixing that. Now, I hope you enclude a switch for
those 16:9 encodes, as these are what I always use.

Thanks again,
-vhelp

Paced

17th March 2004, 18:20

Nic, I just came back from testing .3, and I must say, the speed increase is quite impressive compared to the FPS I was originally getting. Now, regarding the artifacts I discovered earlier on: you must have fixed the "Trellis Quant" 'artifact' without even knowing it, because it's all good/normal now :D However, the artifacts on the top/left hand side of the screen are still there (although they don't appear to be as frequent anymore - maybe it's just me). Great work once again :cool:

Nic

17th March 2004, 18:33

Thanks for the praise, but it should really all go to the ffmpeg guys ( http://ffmpeg.sourceforge.net/ffmpeg-doc.html ) Check there for other possible options I could include. (im only using libavcodec, so I can't do all of it yet, only the video codec side)

@Mr_Khyron: Please explain more, sadly I have no knowledge of VCDs, so I dont know the difference or what is needed...

@vhelp: Ahhh, good point, missing a AR switch. Ill add that for 0.4

-Nic

Amnon82

17th March 2004, 18:34

@Nic Please dont use this thread to advertise your GUI
Sorry I didn't ment it as a advertise. I only wanted to show You the quality with programs using libavcodec.

I'll try now Your new 0.3 version. Lets see what options do You have
added...

Here comes the help:

VCD:

PAL
video:
1150 kbit/sec MPEG-1 CBR
352 x 288 pixels
25 frames/second

Audio:
224 kbit/sec MPEG-1 Layer2

NTSC
Video:
1150 kbit/sec MPEG-1 CBR
352 x 240 pixels
29,97 frames/second

Audio:
224 kbit/sec MPEG-1 Layer2

XVCD:

PAL
video:
1250 kbit/sec MPEG-1 VBR (or higher)
704 x 576 pixels
25 frames/second

Audio:
192 kbit/sec MPEG-1 Layer2

NTSC
Video:
1250 kbit/sec MPEG-1 VBR (or higher)
704 x 480 pixels
29,97 frames/second

Audio:
192 kbit/sec MPEG-1 Layer2

But this is old. Today the guys (for example at Kvcd.net) uses the VCD resolution or one between VCD and XVCD and VBR. Most is TMPGEnc used for this Job. They use the CQ Option in TMPGEnc to get 120 Min on a VCD. Normaly only 80 Min will fit on a 700 MB disc.

So this can You do with Your Encoder to get him better:

libavcodec supports a resizing filter, so add it into Your Encoder.
Aspect Ratio should be avaible.
GOB Length should be also avaible.
Frame Rate Change as a Option.
Max B-Frames adjustable.
Add Quantizer Options.
Preprocessing Options will help also.
You can add Softpulldown for NTSC sources.
Dont forget a Deinterlance option.
Normaly the Codec supports Masking but with some test I found out that trellis alone will do the job better.
A Prediction option is also good. You can use Incs Slicer.avs to do this. Its include in my DRPEnc package or download it here (http://rj-elektronik.de/avideo/files/DRPEncPredictionPack.exe) seperatly if You want.
A Templatessupport will be also nice.
Add a custom Matrices Feature.

Then You can add some Tools to the Encoder (Only if You want):

Audio Encoder (MP2/AC3)
Bitrate Calculator
(S)VCD Author
DVD Author
Burnenergie

I hope I helped You with this Nic.
Go on with this work. If You need further help PM me.

itcth

17th March 2004, 19:04

@Mr_Khyron

For VCD,please try DRPENC latest version.After remultiplexing .m1v and .mp2 with TMPGenc.Your VCD is perfectly compatible and can be burnt with Nero with no complain at all.Belive me, i ruin more than 3 dozens of CDR lately before Amnon82 came to rescue.

Sorry for my broken English.

Amnon82

17th March 2004, 19:20

@itcth: Hey itcth. THX to hear about this, but this is the thread of QuEnc and not of my GUI. Here I want help Nic to add also a VCD Feature to his Encoder. I know that my GUI works for VCD. Now should also QuEnc work for this standart.

@Nic: Sorry that I started to check the Quality of Your encoder and my GUI. I hope You don't get this wrong. It seems that more and more coder change to libavcodec. This is realy nice. If You find the way, good, if I do, then I help You. This is not about who is the better app. This is how to get a better quality.

... I'll stay tuned and wait for Your next release.

itcth

17th March 2004, 19:37

@AMnon82,
I can use .avs directly in QuEnc 0.3 but when i try to put .avs for my input instead of .avi(C:\1.avi") in your bat file,encoding stop half way ,below are bat file ;

REM -----------------------------------------------------------------
@ECHO on
ECHO Batchfile created with DRPEnc 0.2.0.1 - by Avalon
ECHO Start encoding 1Pass
mencoder.exe -forceidx -of mpeg -ovc lavc -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg1video:vqmin=2:vqmax=24:vmax_b_frames=2:mbd=0:keyint=15:vpass=1:aspect=4/3:vbitrate=950:vratetol=1000:vrc_maxrate=1150:vrc_buf_size=328:vb_qfactor=1.2:vi_qfactor=0.8:inter_matrix=16,20,24,28,32,36,40,44,20,24,28,32,36,40,44,48,24,28,32,36,40,44,48,52,28,32,36,40,44,48,52,56,32,36,40,44,48,52,56,58,36,40,44,48,52,56,58,60,40,44,48,52,56,58,60,62,44,48,52,56,58,60,62,62:intra_matrix=8,16,19,22,26,27,29,34,16,16,22,24,27,29,34,35,19,22,26,27,29,34,35,38,22,22,26,27,29,34,35,40,22,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,50,26,27,29,35,40,48,50,60,27,29,35,40,48,50,60,62 -vf crop=704:576,scale=352:288,expand=352:288 -ofps 25 -oac lavc -lavcopts acodec=mp2:abitrate=224 -srate 44100 "C:\1.avi" -o "C:\Temp\1.mpg"

ECHO Demuxing now M1V-file...
BBDMUX.EXE C:\Temp\1-2.mpg 0xe0 C:\Temp\1-2.m1v
BBDMUX.EXE C:\Temp\1-2.mpg 0xc0 C:\Temp\1-2.mp2
DEL C:\Temp\1-2.Mpg

pause
REM -----------------------------------------------------------------

Any suggestion.

Best regards,

@Nic...
Please apologize me for using your thread.(@Amnon82 is now logging on and i am now in a hurry)

itcth

17th March 2004, 19:42

@AMnon82

Just to correct demultiplex part only
-----------------------------------------------
ECHO Demuxing now M1V-file...
BBDMUX.EXE C:\Temp\1.mpg 0xe0 C:\Temp\1.m1v
BBDMUX.EXE C:\Temp\1.mpg 0xc0 C:\Temp\1.mp2
DEL C:\Temp\1.Mpg
-----------------------------------------------

Nic

17th March 2004, 20:49

@itcth: keep the discussion on QuEnc, not on other apps/uses/etc!
Ammon please reply to itcth's posts in a DRPEnc thread.

Amnon82

17th March 2004, 21:02

Sorry Nic! As You see I thougth I told him that this is Your thread. Can You forgive me once again?

I'm so sorry for this!

DarkNite

17th March 2004, 21:39

However, the artifacts on the top/left hand side of the screen are still there (although they don't appear to be as frequent anymore - maybe it's just me).

I have yet to see those artifacts in the 2 tests I've done with trellis (looking pretty good by the way). Could you post your script and source as well as usage info?

/me returns to watching job manager

Paced

18th March 2004, 03:32

Originally posted by DarkNite
I have yet to see those artifacts in the 2 tests I've done with trellis (looking pretty good by the way). Could you post your script and source as well as usage info?

/me returns to watching job manager

Hi, my script only contains two lines - one to load the .D2V file, and one to convert it to YV12. These artifacts only seem to appear on full DVD resolution (720x576) for me, I've also yet to come across them on lower resolutions. In order to notice them, scroll through the output in VirtualDub, you're bound to come across it.

Usage = default, but with the addition of 2 Pass Encoding.

dragongodz

18th March 2004, 06:06

Paced - try using Nics MPEG2Dec3

_http://nic.dnsalias.com/MPEG2Dec3v110.zip

you do not need to use the converttoyv12 with this as it outputs yv12 standard.

see if that makes any difference.

Paced

18th March 2004, 06:55

Originally posted by dragongodz
Paced - try using Nics MPEG2Dec3

_http://nic.dnsalias.com/MPEG2Dec3v110.zip

you do not need to use the converttoyv12 with this as it outputs yv12 standard.

see if that makes any difference.

Thanks for the reply dragongodz, but I still manage to get the same artifacts with Nic's version of Mpeg2dec3. Try encoding something that doesn't have too many dark scenes; these artifacts are most evident in 'brighter' scenes. I'll make a screenshot and show you what it looks like in about an hour or so (bit busy at the moment :().

Paced

18th March 2004, 08:28

Originally posted by Mr_Khyron
Can you use QuEnc to make VCD mv1 streams not xVCD ?

You should be able to make a valid VCD stream by setting the bitrate to 1150, and unticking "Use VBR."

Nocturno

18th March 2004, 16:15

Hi Nic / All

i did a test with a xvid 2 dvd conversion and my file came up 500mb short compared to the CCE encode i did earlier.
Hope i didn't make a mistake somewhere..

here goes:

Source AVS : QuEnc.avs
Destination M2V: moviep0.m2v

Running Commandline: QuEnc.exe -i "E:\test\Quenc.avs" -o "E:\test\moviep0.m2v" -2 -b 4684 -auto -close

avg 27.80 fps
Bitrate:4684
2pass
vbr
High Quality
Mpeg2
720x480
-----------------------AVS------------------------------------
LoadPlugin("D:\avi2dvd\filters\mpeg2dec3.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\avi2dvd\filters\VSFilter.dll")
v1 = avisource("D:\Test\Test.avi",False)
v2 = Blankclip()
AudioDub(v1,v2)
LanczosResize(720,424,0.0,0.6)
AddBorders(0,28,0,28)
textsub("D:\Test\Test.srt")
#ResampleAudio(44100) - Original CCE Script.. Athlon Owner
#AssumeFPS(24) - QuEnc 0.3 .. Not Needed?
#ConvertToYV12() - using mpeg2dec3.dll
-----------------------AVS------------------------------------
Source: Xvid 576x304
Framerate 23,9
Length: 62 minutes 23 seconds = 3742 seconds
Frames: 89743
Aspect 1.89

Final Filesize QuEnc: 1,493,066,198 Bytes.
Filesize CCE 2.5 Encode (4-pass):2,101,766,688 Bytes. - 16:9 Encode / Pulldown 29fps
Difference : 608700490 Bytes.

--------------------------CCE ECL snippet-----------------
vmode=2
frame_rate_idx=3
cbr_brate=6000
opv_q_factor=30
opv_brate_min=2000
opv_brate_max=9000
vbr_brate_avg=4684 <---- this bitrate was used
vbr_brate_min=2000
vbr_brate_max=9000
vbr_bias=40
vbr_pass=4

--------------------------CCE ECL snippet-----------------

Pulldown on QuEnc file showed:
89741 frames
3191206 bits/sec average bitrate

difference:
1492794 bits/sec

Quality was nice, but not as good as 4pass CCE .

further more the CCE encode showed the correct time in media player classic,
The QuEnc encode showed 28 minutes as time but played correctly. both pulldown and non pulldown versions.

lithoc

18th March 2004, 22:28

Hi Nic,

What ffmpeg version you use for QuEnc?
As far as I know, ffmpeg update very frequently.

I try their ffmpeg cvs version. The quality is very good.

Kika

19th March 2004, 00:10

Hm, i've tried it. It's not faster than TMPGEnc and gave me an unsharp Picture. Maybe it's a good choice if your target is to put lots of Video onto one Disc, but it is not a solution for high quality encodings.

yaz

19th March 2004, 10:11

@nic
hey, man, a great tool again ! thx ! (so, that's why we don't see ya round xvid :-)
my quests :
- why do u compile libav into the exe ? would it be possible to keep it as dll (& upgrade it as development goes by ?)
- do u set any params different than the defaults ?
- would it be possible to include max/min bitrate control ?
- would it be possible to include b-frame tweaking (sg like in xvid) & switching (on/off) ?

thx for your worx
y

Nic

19th March 2004, 10:26

@Kika: Sorry, you had bad luck with it. It may well get better and the different settings can make quite a difference....So I wouldnt completely dismiss it.

@yaz: I dont like DLLs with apps. makes debugging a pain too ;) Also libavcodec has to be modified very slightly. Ill post the mods here soon (i.e. have aligned memory allocation, etc). I dont know what the best params are yet...Ill add better bitrate control in 0.5, just about to release 0.4. B-Frame control is in 0.4.

@Nocturno:
"Quality was nice, but not as good as 4pass CCE" ;) That's no surprise, CCE 4pass is about as good as your ever going to get :)
bitrate control might well be better in the next release (I've followed a suggstion from dragongodz which might help)
(AssumeFPS(24) is not needed, your right)

@lithoc:
I do use the latest CVS version. :)

Matthaeus

19th March 2004, 12:20

Simple & useful...and it's faaast. Thanks for this great app! Its color is cool, too! However it's not possible to make videos playable by standalones yet, because of the incorrect VBV size (36kB). It should be 23kB for VCD & 112kB for SVCD/DVD. Waiting for 0.4 !

Nic

19th March 2004, 12:59

Are you sure it's only 36kb ? It's set to 112kbps (ill make it goto 23 for MPEG-1) (Did you have VBR selected when you tried?)

Nic

19th March 2004, 13:05

Ok, new update.

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

* More options: Can control GOP Size, Can set number of B-Frames, Aspect Ratio, etc (new commandline options added)

* GUI Controls: You can now set the colours! ;) (Try Fore: 000000 Dark: AAAAAA Norm: BBBBBB Light: CCCCCC for people that dont like my garish red)

* Slightly changed bitrate control (now max_bitrate = bitrate+2000 and will not go above 9700kbps)

Cheers,
-Nic

yaz

19th March 2004, 13:09

Originally posted by Nic
Are you sure it's only 36kb ? It's set to 112kbps (ill make it goto 23 for MPEG-1) (Did you have VBR selected when you tried?) oops ... maybe that's why standalones here around refuses your m2v streams steadily :-(
( gone to test the new ver :-)
thx
y

Nic

19th March 2004, 13:31

yaz there are three reasons I can think why it didnt play (but they should be fixed with 0.4)
1) Bitrate too high (with 0.3 the bitrate could ballon past the DVD maximum)
2) VBV buffer is wrong (but I dont think it is. @Matthaeus: could you tell me what app you used to check the VBV?)
3) The aspect ratio in 0.3 is 1:1, which isn't good. Now you can set it to whatever and the default is 16:9

-Nic

Paced

19th March 2004, 13:34

Nic, great work once again, these regular updates are awesome :) One thing though, is it possible to add an "estimated time remaining" feature in the program?

Nic

19th March 2004, 13:50

You like regular updates? ;)
http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe (v0.41)
Now displays the Time Left for the current pass when encoding.

Paced

19th March 2004, 13:57

Originally posted by Nic
You like regular updates? ;)
http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe (v0.41)
Now displays the Time Left for the current pass when encoding.

Seriously Nic, you're a God :D Thanks very much for this feature, it may not be much, but it definitely comes in handy! Now I expect v0.5 to be out in 5 minutes... :devil:

Kika

19th March 2004, 14:51

@Nic

Don't missunderstand me, i didn't say it is bad. It is an easy to use Tool and the Quality is OK. But compared to my own settings in TMPGEnc, the resulting Picture is a bit more unsharp. In some cases, this may be an advantage (like i wrote: to put a lot of Video to a single Disc).
And the newer Versions have become more useful. ;)

Amnon82

19th March 2004, 15:22

@Nic: Can You post all commandline options?

add I found a feature You can add: CPU Priority

Is it possible to add a Pause feature?

BTW: Libavcodec after CVS 14.03.04 produces bad quality.

dragongodz

19th March 2004, 15:58

Matthaeus - "incorrect VBV size (36kB). It should be 23kB for VCD & 112kB for SVCD/DVD."
Nic - "Are you sure it's only 36kb ?"

yes i am curious about where the 23kb came from aswell. i have seen vbv as low as 20 for vcd but also higher. example is Tmpgenc uses 40kb for its vcd templates and MainConcept encoder uses 43kb and they are vcd compliant.

Nic - sorry i havent had a chance to get back to you but real world is interfering at the moment. :(
will try to get some testing done by the end of the weekend.

Nic

19th March 2004, 15:58

@avalon:
It isn't done using a Commandline so it's hard to post them, but the ones used are pretty obvious from QuEnc...apart from HQ does not equal the commandline param -hq it equals -mbd=2 which seems better to me.

Yup I can add pause and processor priority.

"Libavcodec after CVS 14.03.04 produces bad quality."
Do you know what caused it? Ill check, was it just bad quality in MPEG-2/1 or was it to all codecs (and hence perhaps a change to the motion est/comp code?)

@dgz: sorry for not replying to your mails, read them and taken the info on board, may well send you the code if you get some free time and you can tinker with it if you like, ill try and put out ReJig as well this weekend....

-Nic

tuco

19th March 2004, 16:01

I noticed that when I go in the command prompt and type quenc /? it doesn't show all the options that can be changed, namely Use VBR and High Quality. I am comparing with mencoder since I have been getting excellent results with but the using batch files can be a pain and I haven't found a gui for it that was suited to my needs. Your previous versions would cause the video to jump every second or two which I think is because of the b-frames. I am testing your current version as I type to see if it does the same. Yup, if I have b-frames enabled, I get the jumpy video while making a VCD. I don't get this with mencoder which is odd since both your program and mencoder use the same libavcodec. Is anyone else getting this problem?

Edit: I still ge the same problem without b-frames....Here is my script

AVISource("C:\Capture\PerryMason (2004-03-15 at 12-58-15).avi").ColorYUV(levels="PC->TV")

Trim(102198,103996)
Converttoyv12()
SimpleResize(352,240)

FluxSmooth(7,7)

Edit...Again: Well reading the two posts above me, now I know why. :)

dragongodz

19th March 2004, 16:02

Nic - hahaha hows that for posting at the same time ?
ye i should have a little time free sunday and also monday.

Nic

19th March 2004, 16:09

@tuco: If there isnt a commandline param for it, just turn it off/on then quit and it will be saved in the registry so that next time you do it from the commandline it will be done. What are you playing it in to produce the skipping, ill look at how mencoder sets it's b-frame settings...
If you believe it's because of the VBV then it should be fixed in the current version...

@vmesquita: I've made an option for the upcoming 0.5 that turns on using the KVCD matrixs for encoding, however, the quality it produces doesn't seem very good with that notch matrix...is there anything im missing?

-Nic

yaz

19th March 2004, 16:37

@nic
still i'd like to set max/min br by myself if possible. 9Mbps is ok for dvd but pretty high for svcd. & what about 'trellising' ? or is it defaulted ?
btw, u were right. i (quenc:-) was a bit careless with the br before.
thx
y

dragongodz

19th March 2004, 16:43

"still i'd like to set max/min br by myself if possible. 9Mbps is ok for dvd but pretty high for svcd"
well compliant vcd isnt a problem since its cbr and can be done already. hopwever svcd being vbr but limited max bitrate needs at the least a definition set, maybe as a selection/switch.

i am sure these sort of things will come in time. lets not forget its only at version 0.4. :)

yaz

19th March 2004, 16:47

@dragongodz
:-))) yeah, i know ... :-)))

Paced

19th March 2004, 17:24

Originally posted by Nic

@vmesquita: I've made an option for the upcoming 0.5 that turns on using the KVCD matrixs for encoding, however, the quality it produces doesn't seem very good with that notch matrix...is there anything im missing?

-Nic

If you intend on having support for KVCD, you might want to allow a (open) GOP size over 18 (currently QuEnc doesn't allow you to go over this) - KVCD users are known to go higher (I think between 24 and 30). Also, in order to get a better quality KVCD (if you didn't know already), try encoding in MPEG-1, use the KVCD notch matrix (which you're already doing), and use the optimal AVS script that was specifically made for KVCD encoding. Oh yeah, don't forget to lower your resolution to one of these: 544/480/352 x 576(480 NTSC).

tuco

19th March 2004, 20:04

Originally posted by Nic
@tuco: If there isnt a commandline param for it, just turn it off/on then quit and it will be saved in the registry so that next time you do it from the commandline it will be done. What are you playing it in to produce the skipping, ill look at how mencoder sets it's b-frame settings...
If you believe it's because of the VBV then it should be fixed in the current version...

@vmesquita: I've made an option for the upcoming 0.5 that turns on using the KVCD matrixs for encoding, however, the quality it produces doesn't seem very good with that notch matrix...is there anything im missing?

-Nic

I am using mplayer classic to play my files. It is more like a distorted freezing effect every second or so that makes the video look like it is jumping up and down by a few pixels. You get this sometimes with mencoder at very low bitrates, less than 700. I will wait for the next version. Take your time, your are doing a great job :)

Amnon82

19th March 2004, 20:19

@nic: Pics are better to discribe it:

Look here:

Encoded with libavcodec 14.03.04 (http://rj-elektronik.de/avideo/lastmencoder/quality14.03.04-20.55.jpg)

Encoded with libavcodec 17.03.04 (http://rj-elektronik.de/avideo/lastmencoder/quality17.03.04-09.30.jpg)

gizmau

19th March 2004, 23:41

-custom matrices
-selectable maximum bitrate
-batch encoding
-'shutdowen after encoding'-option
-bitrate-limitation of end credits

keep up the good work!!

Nocturno

20th March 2004, 01:15

Hi Nic,

i saw 0.4 had Slightly changed bitrate control

so i decided to run the same test.. it came out a few bytes bigger, but still way under size.
any ideas about that (same stuff i posted earlier).

Paced

20th March 2004, 02:23

Originally posted by Nocturno
Hi Nic,

i saw 0.4 had

so i decided to run the same test.. it came out a few bytes bigger, but still way under size.
any ideas about that (same stuff i posted earlier).

Is this movie quite 'dark' ? I've noticed that QuEnc has bitrate allocation problems with 'darker' movies (which results in an under-sized output). Also, are you doing 1-pass encoding? If so, try 2 passes, it gives much better accuracy (although, for me, darker movies still turn out under-sized even with 2 passes). One last thing, make sure the video you're testing QuEnc with is greater than 5/6 minutes in length, anything lower and you're bound to get an under-sized result.

Amenophis

20th March 2004, 02:59

i've tested your program too, with the following results...

- the quantizer doesn't get below ~3.0, even when using a high bitrate (and the encoder doesn't even reach the given avg bitrate). I-Frames look really good (that's what i expect when aiming 8000 kbit/s), but B-Frames in high motion scenes unfortunately not. seems as they are getting a higher quantizer. have you set 'input->b_quant_offset' to any high value? i would suggest something like -0.2 here. also 'input->b_quant_factor' should be something like 1.0...1.2 (that means b-frames will get 0%...20% more compressed than P-Frames. Additionally in mencoder there is an option to let the encoder decide how much b-frames would be the best for every gop. It's called vb_strategy, when activated it decides for every gop which pattern will be the best, imho a must-have when using mencoder (lowers avg. quant about 0.5 when used for dvd->dvdr). imho the option 'input->b_frame_strategy=1' will activate this mode (if it isn't affected by the comment above). additionally 'input->qblur=0.0' and 'input->qmin=1' should result in better quality,

- the quantizer curve seems to be very constant, so a better rate control algotithm could be useful. with 'input->rc_eq' you can pass a *char, mencoder uses something like 'tex^qComp' (with qComp=0.5 or something like that, and tex is the texture quality (maybe you've to calculate this out of itex and ptex saved in the logfile)).

- for better quality (and slower encoding ;)) the following options should be useful too:
input->dct_algo=6 //uses FAAN Algo for DCT
input->mb_qmin=1 //a single mb can be encoded with quant=1
input->lmin=1 //like the one above needed when using qmin=1
input->quantizer_noise_shaping=true //increases quality, but trellis is needed

- RcOverride, as well as masking and me-prepass seems to be interesting as well, but i haven't done much testing regarding these options.

Nocturno

20th March 2004, 04:37

Is this movie quite 'dark' ?
no not really.. and i'm doing a 2 pass (see my first post about this.)

dragongodz

20th March 2004, 06:32

Nocturno - with CCE was the output set to elemtary stream or program stream ? if program then load Tmpgenc and go to mpeg tools. go to de-multiplex and load the mpeg. double click on the video stream(you should see at least a private stream aswell) and save. this will be the raw m2v which is what QuEnc is outputting.

Amenophis -
"option to let the encoder decide how much b-frames would be the best for every gop."
ah but is that vcd/svcd/dvd compliant ?
"masking and me-prepass seems to be interesting as well, but i haven't done much testing regarding these options."
i did actually try without prepass using ffvfw some time ago and found the quality of my limited tests where very close in general. so it really needs a bunch of people testing and posting their results for something like that to become a real issue.
"the quantizer doesn't get below ~3.0, even when using a high bitrate"
hmm well i did a test with low bitrate(3000kbps) ata dvd resolution and some I frames did get down to quant 2 according to bitrate viewer. i will have to try a high bitrate test aswell and see what that does.

Nic

20th March 2004, 10:14

@Amenophis: Thanks for the tips. There are so many options its been hard to know which is best. FFMPEG's defaults certainly arent so ive been surfing the net finding better ones for mencoder, hopefully the next release will be more turned. (I think b-frame quant factor is set to 2.0 at present, which sounds too high then (it's the ffmpeg default))

@Nocturno: Thanks for the feedback, if you get chance, try a 2-pass and see what results you get. Thanks.

-Nic

Razorblade2000

20th March 2004, 11:08

In case you wanna build in the shutdown function:
On http://www.robvanderwoude.com/shutdown.html there are the different commandlines you can use to shutdown Win9x/2k/xp/nt

dragongodz

20th March 2004, 11:47

ok quick test done with 8500kbps results. I and P frames min quant was 2 and B frames was 4. clearly a problem there. I and P frames should be a min of 1 and B frames min of 2. you should find this is the norm for mpeg encoders.

"there are the different commandlines you can use to shutdown Win9x/2k/xp/nt"
thanks Razorblade2000 but Nic and i talked about Rejig shutting down different OS internally some time ago and he already knows how. so no need for commandline tools.

Nic - DCT precision selection needs to be added to options since 8 for vcd,9 for svcd and 10 for dvd etc. currently just does 8.

Amenophis

20th March 2004, 13:03

@Nic: if you need good settings for mencoder, i've done several Backups following the Big3-Way (with using Mencoder instead of CCE), and the results were even a little bit better than the CCE results with using libav options like this:

vcodec=mpeg2video:vrc_buf_size=1835:vfdct=6:keyint=15:vmax_b_frames=2:vrc_override=110200,115248,1000:vlelim=-4:vcelim=-7:trell:mbd=0:aspect=16/9:vb_strategy=1:vratetol=1835:cbp:vbitrate=4250:vrc_maxrate=8497:vqmin=1:mbqmin=1:lmin=1:vb_qfactor=1.25:vi_qfactor=0.833333:vqblur=0.0:vpass=1(pass2:=2)
@Dragongodz:

"ah but is that vcd/svcd/dvd compliant ?"

imho yes. of course only when using proper keyint and max_b_frames settings. but changing the GOP pattern within an encode shouldn't be a problem, as long each pattern is valid.

"DCT precision selection needs to be added to options since 8 for vcd,9 for svcd and 10 for dvd etc. currently just does 8."

i don't know if that is already implemented in the libav, mencoder too hasn't such an option. at least DCT prec.=8 is also valid for svcd/dvd and the quality is still very good.

Nic

20th March 2004, 13:38

@Razorblade2000: Thanks for the tip, but the best code for closing down windows was in Nandub, so ill use what that taught me :)

@Amenophis: Thanks alot for that. Ill add those in as pretty much default. Ive tried most of them out in testing and they do seem to help.

@dgz: Precision, as far as I know, isn't changeable, ill look at the code, maybe I can add it to libavcodec.

-Nic

Nocturno

20th March 2004, 15:05

@dragongodz - i used Es so nothing to demultiplex

@Nic. i did do a 2-pass

like i said i used a bitrate of 4684 on a movie of 62 minutes 23 secs

so it should come out about 2gb right?

it came out : 1,493,066,198. 2-pass
my CCE ES encode: 2,101,766,688

i'll try another conversion this afternoon.

dragongodz

20th March 2004, 15:16

"Precision, as far as I know, isn't changeable, ill look at the code, maybe I can add it to libavcodec."
ye i just had a look at the ffmpeg options and its not listed just selection of different algorithems.

"imho yes. of course only when using proper keyint and max_b_frames settings. but changing the GOP pattern within an encode shouldn't be a problem, as long each pattern is valid."
ah but what is a valid pattern ? a setting that can make a GOP IBBBB etc for vcd/svcd especially is suspect. look at kvcd, yes lots of modern players will play it but that in no way makes it in spec or required to be playable on future players. so thats why i believe that an option for standard type vcd/svcd/dvd should follow the normal GOP pattern only. since Nic is also allowing the ability to encode kvcd etc then max_b_frames could be used for free form mpeg encoding of course. what i am talking about is for if people want to set encoding to vcd/svcd/dvd standard that should play in all their dvd players. infact ffmpeg does have an option for setting target type(vcd/svcd/dvd) already where format options are automatically set.

Nocturno - the problem is probably related to the min quants bug that i posted earlier. that is I and P frames min quant of 2 and B frames of 4. once thats fixed to what they should be then that may fix the problem(lets hope :) ).

Amenophis

20th March 2004, 15:47

@Dragongodz:

Libav won't create a GOP like 'IBBBB...', because i've set max_b_frames=2. So it will only greate GOPs like 'IBBPBBP...', 'IBPBPBPBP..', 'IPPPPPPP...' or a mix of these patterns. The GOPs won't get longer than set with 'keyint'.

@Nocturno:

I'm sure that's because of the quantizer. With mencoder and (constant) quant=2 the codec needs about avg. 4000-5000 kbit/s. Currently we have here only avg. quant>3, so the encoder won't get above ~3000-4000 kbit/s (avg). but imho that's not a major problem, it can be easily fixed like mentioned above

dragongodz

20th March 2004, 16:00

"GOPs like 'IBBPBBP...', 'IBPBPBPBP..', 'IPPPPPPP...' or a mix of these patterns"
yes the IBBB was just an example. IPPPPP(as example) is just as suspect. so max_b_frames as an option for free form mpeg encoding i dont have a problem with. however for anyone wanting to create dead standard vcd/svcd/dvd this should be disabled. thats why i also said maybe have options for setting standard vcd/svcd/dvd encoding which would use normal GOP pattern etc etc etc. you will find that CCE, Tmpgenc, Mainconcept etc etc etc all have such selectable profiles/templates.

Nocturno

20th March 2004, 18:03

ok thanx guy's.

did another test on an 1:16:13 hour long movie and it too came up way short..
at a bitrate of 7909

aiming for 4,2 gb it came out 1,6 gb.

i'll just wait for you guys to decide about the quantizer :)

Amenophis

20th March 2004, 21:01

Originally posted by dragongodz
yes the IBBB was just an example. IPPPPP(as example) is just as suspect. so max_b_frames as an option for free form mpeg encoding i dont have a problem with. however for anyone wanting to create dead standard vcd/svcd/dvd this should be disabled.

IPPPP... and even IIII... will result in an standard dvd, i found nothing in the dvd specs which forbits these settings. so every dvd-compatible standalone player will play this stream. You can create such GOPs also with CCE and Tmpeg, and even Scenarist doesn't output any warning.

P.S.: The feature we are talking about is called 'vb_strategy' and not 'max_b_frames'. the last one is always needed for dvd streams.

dragongodz

21st March 2004, 06:57

"IPPPP... and even IIII... will result in an standard dvd, i found nothing in the dvd specs which forbits these settings. so every dvd-compatible standalone player will play this stream."
sorry but i dont have th $5000(U.S. dollars) to buy or desire to sign non disclosure agreement for the dvd specs. but from what i understand yes dvd players should be able to play them. though i did read somewhere of a person getting some juttering with IPPPP on a self created dvd while IBBPBB was fine, effected only 1 of his dvd players. ok so thats really the players problem but it illustrates the need for this to be selectable rather than automatically on.

"You can create such GOPs also with CCE and Tmpeg, and even Scenarist doesn't output any warning."
and you missed the point that they are not what you get when you select the preset setting or load preset template which is what i was talking about. so if Nic adds presets for vcd/svcd/dvd why should it be different than all other encoders ?

"P.S.: The feature we are talking about is called 'vb_strategy' and not 'max_b_frames'. the last one is always needed for dvd streams."
thats called a typo while busy trying to juggle doing multiple things at once. :)

also note i said vcd and svcd aswell and not just dvd. take kvcd, most dvd players will play such encoded video. it is however out of spec and in no way is mandatory to be supported. giving people the option to encode different ways is fine but if you have a standard setting/option then it should be as conservative as possible to ensure proper playback on all players.

well i am starting to feel i am banging my head against a brick wall here so i will not bother to comment on that any more. whatever Nic decides to do is his decision and should be respected as such.

crusher

21st March 2004, 23:36

I've been unable to encode because I keep getting the error "AVS file is not outputting (Use ConvertToYV12() at end of script." The script already has (Use ConvertToYV12() as the last line. Any ideas?

jorel

22nd March 2004, 00:03

hy Nic and all!

yesterday i had little problems using cce
and after change some posts in cce forum with Kedirekin,
he found the problems and now everything is working fine,
but for me, cce is complicated to do the adjusts, i'm a simple user.

when i was waiting his answers, i see this thread and
was (and is) a big surprise cos i never had read about QuENC before.

then, today soon, i download QuENC to compare the results cos
i had encoded the "toy story" with cce and using the same
source and script, i did a new encode with QuENC.

was needed to remove the line ConvertToYUY2()
from the script to work with QuENC.

QuENC with default adjusts, changing only the aspect radio to 4:3 !
(and changing the colors of the gui, very nice feature too!)

final sizes:
QuENC = 1,49Gb ---> very cool!
CCE266= 1,66Gb (using Q=20,mpeg2(es one-pass vbr))

comparing quality doing fast test in powerdvd
just the same, very nice.
then i change the scenes many times to see more details:
the QuENC encode is pulsing the image every second !

anyone had seamless problem?

please, hints are welcome, QuENC is amazing and easy to use.
thanks in advance!

@ Nic :
thanks for QuENC !

:)

djan

22nd March 2004, 00:18

Hi,

Tested QuEnc 0.41 using ReBuilder with an average bitrate of 3.198kbs. Sorry to say but I didn't get a good quality. And compared to CCE 2-pass, this one was much better for the same bitrate. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I get a lot like flies flying around all sprites/objects, I don't know how you call this. Understanding it's in an early development state, I'm sure to see some quality improvements later in the development. I don't forget it's free ! Keep up your great work Nic.

human75

22nd March 2004, 00:57

Create AVS script DoITFAST4U.Tested QuEnc 0.41 an average bitrate of VBR 4000. I didn't get a good quality.CCE is good on VBR 4000 but QuEnc 0.41 bad quality.what is wrong?Thanks for ideas.

djan

22nd March 2004, 01:02

Same for me as I explained in my last post. It seems like QuEnc is not able to handle well low bitrates. But don't forget it's in early development state. We can see a great free tool further.

tickey

22nd March 2004, 04:20

Originally posted by jorel

the QuENC encode is pulsing the image every second !

anyone had seamless problem?

Yes, I get "the alive" feature as well :D (pulsing vid)
2 bad I can't turn it off ;)

flloyd

22nd March 2004, 05:01

Originally posted by jorel
the QuENC encode is pulsing the image every second!

Ditto here as well.

Nic

22nd March 2004, 11:07

Thanks for the feedback guys and sorry for the delay in a new release, all this feedback helps loads so keep it coming.

I get the pulsing bug here, but (I dont think) not at home, almost wondering if it's a P4 SSE2 thing...Does anyone that doesnt have a P4 get the pulsing problem?

New update soon, I hope,
-Nic

ps
Ok it's not the SSE2, if anyone else wants to test easily, make a avs script like this:
Version()+Version()+Version()
BicubicResize(720,576)
ConvertToYV12()

And then encode, you'll see the pulsing then.

EDIT:
Praise and the winning prize goto: Amenophis :)
It's the standard iDCT algo that causes the pulsing, if I use idct=6 then no more pulsing :D
(ok idct=6 shouldn't work, but it does, must be defaulting to something else, any which way, problem solved)
EDIT2: Yup, there appears to be a bug in the mmx implementation of simple idct in libavcodec...ill do more testing, see if I can fix it. For now if you use the libmpeg2/xvid style idct, no more pulsing :D
Edit3: Ok, there appears to be a problem no matter what mmx idct I use, only if I use the standard C one is it ok. Speed isn't impacted too much. Even happens with ffmpeg.exe so it's not QuEnc's fault.

jorel

22nd March 2004, 13:45

"....it's not QuEnc's fault."
oh yes,i had conviction about that!
:)

hey Nic,
you edit "too much" the last post,now i'm confused! (kidding but real confused)
:p

what i have to do ? (using athlon xp 2000+)

thanks !
:)

Nic

22nd March 2004, 14:21

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

* This version uses normal, no mmx, SimpleiDCT and no longer shows any sign of the pulsing bug.
* Also has some encoder options that Amenophis suggested.

-Nic

unplugged

22nd March 2004, 14:31

(haven't read the whole thread)

Nic, do you think to further incorporate MPEG2Dec3(dg) routines to support direct MPEG source decoding?

Nic

22nd March 2004, 14:33

(actually i'd probably use the libmpeg2 to do direct decoding...or ffmpeg's own mpeg-2 decoding to do m2v/vob/mpg->m2v)

(edit: BTW, just tried the kvcd matrix, and with this bug fixed, the matrix works real well, so the kvcd notch matrix be in the next version of QuEnc)

jorel

22nd March 2004, 16:35

great news Nic!
:D

after download QuENC 0.42 and
using same source and script posted that i compare with cce encode
but with trim(0,2000) ~01:23 seconds only to do a sample:

no more "pulses", very clean !
:)

now i will encode the full movie (cartoon) again!

thanks you for this great tool!

:)

Nic

22nd March 2004, 19:20

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

* Now has a fixed simple mmx idct which doesnt cause the pulsating...(so no lose of speed hopefully and no pulsing)

* Now can select the KVCD Notch Matrix (also has commandline option to do so)

-Nic

kwag

22nd March 2004, 19:52

Originally posted by Nic

* Now can select the KVCD Notch Matrix (also has commandline option to do so)
-Nic
Hi Nic,

Just tested it on a small clip.
Looking really nice ;)

-kwag

HarryM

22nd March 2004, 20:08

@Nic: Great, great program... :D

Do you plan to add a support for "AVS to audio(mp2)" encoding?

"Pulsation" is smaller in v0.43, but still exist... :(

sidders

22nd March 2004, 23:16

Hi

This is my script from DIF4U:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DoItFast4U\mpeg2dec3.dll")
Mpeg2Source("VTS__01_P01.16~9_1.d2v",idct=0)
ResampleAudio(44100)
ConvertToYV12()

I get the error AVS file is not outputing. Use ConvertToYV12()at end of script.

As u can see, that is already there. Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks

Nic

23rd March 2004, 00:15

@HarryM: It's not ;) honestly if you see pulsing now, then it's due to something else. It's not the same pulsing that was there originally. Try it with that script I posted and you'll see it's gone.
Maybe I have I-Frame and P/B-Frame quants factors set too different, please post the settings you used.

@sidders: First don't PM me with stuff you've already posted. 2nd, I dont know what's wrong. Sometimes it can throw up that error if something goes wrong in Avisynth, have you looked at the AVS in VirtualDub or Media Player to see how it runs, looks?

-Nic

robw

23rd March 2004, 00:45

Hi Nic

Thanks so much for sharing your encoder. Please consider posting updates to the encoder with a version number

e.g. http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc_v043.exe

Nocturno

23rd March 2004, 00:54

Hi nic

Also has some encoder options that Amenophis suggested

do these have to do with the problem i mentioned earlier..
i did another CBR test of 40 seconds at a high bitrate (7900) and came up with 50% less filesize than the same encode in CCE.

tickey

23rd March 2004, 01:23

Did a couple of quick 10 min samples (trim function in avisynth and xvid avi source)for skvdc....WOW
winxppro/amd2200+@1800noOC/1 GB ram
900 kbps.
No HQ or trellis.
KVCD notch matrix /force closed GOP enabled.
GOP=24, Bframes=2
colour=Original Red :D
Speeds of 42 to 45 fps.
Happy with the quality. No Pulsing.

Removed the trim function to get the full file and Woaaaah...Smohhhhhkin' fast.
Started out @ 120+ fps settled down to 60 fps and worked its way back up to 100 and still rising....Holy Shiat :D
Hopefully the vid looks OK!
It's gonna be done in a couple of minutes and I only sarteded it about 15 minutes ago :eek: :eek: :cool:

Edit:
Update: It was only encoding a 2 line "avs access violation error blah blah" after the first 10 mins .:confused: :(
I will have to shut down some proggies, disconnect from internet, etc. and do a proper encode. Sorry to freak yuz all out! :o :D

Edit2: Did a test on same avs (no other proggies/no internet/no firewall) with ffvfw and it crapped out at same place=so problem with the source avi.
Steady 60 fps vs ffvfw @ 30, very nice.
DVD source=testing now and looking good-46-48 fps...sweet!
Better get that donation page up, the cash might come rollin' in :):D

kwag

23rd March 2004, 05:11

@Nic,

There's a problem in the encoder, not related to your GUI, of course. But I wanted you to be aware of this, and maybe you can look into it.
Here's a sample where a quantization fault is clearly shown: www.kvcd.org/quenc.mpg
Look at the "flashes" over the girl.

-kwag

DDogg

23rd March 2004, 06:38

Nic, I see you are still a glutton for punishment :)

Hey, on the by and by and whenever/if ever, do you think you could change the notch matrix to a custom button or something so we could put in whatever our personal preference is? Also, just being curious (you got enough pressure), does the base of this encoder you are using have a quant based technique? I'm more interested in constant quality (to use that term very loosely) than bitrate/size.

Hope you are doing well, and that the ends of those fingernails can still be seen.

sidders

23rd March 2004, 07:39

Hi Nic,
Using that script it plays fine in VirtualDub and Media Player. Just won't encode in QuEnc.

Nic

23rd March 2004, 10:50

@Nocturno: Have you only tried with VBR turned off? If so, then I've found the problem. If not, then im still looking ;)

@Sidders: Hmmm, how weird, ill put in a better error message, see if that helps.

@Ddogg: Ill look into how easy that is to do, I think it's pretty simple.

@kwag: great bug showing clip...any chance you get me that part of the original file? so that I can recreate the error, im sure it can be fixed...

@robw: Hmmm, just confuses matters and I dont like to look back or have to support old versions...

@HarryM: MP2 Encoding in libavcodec is of poor quality, could try adding another library, or doing ac3 encoding though. But I might end this project earlish to concentrate on ReJig.

-Nic

HarryM

23rd March 2004, 11:37

Originally posted by Nic
@HarryM: It's not ;) honestly if you see pulsing now, then it's due to something else. It's not the same pulsing that was there originally. Try it with that script I posted and you'll see it's gone.
Maybe I have I-Frame and P/B-Frame quants factors set too different, please post the settings you used.

-Nic

I use default settings (GOP=12, 2 b-frames). I put at evening any example.

LigH

23rd March 2004, 13:17

As far as I can see, QuEnc worked well with AviSynth 2.5 and YV12 output (I did not even need ConvertToYV12, because YV12 is default in AviSynth 2.5 with MPEG2Source).

Unfortunately, there is no real bitrate control, as long as I cannot define max and min bitrates, VBR is not very useful for encoding in a limited bitrate range environment. But I guess that the fault is on ffmpeg's side, not Nic's.

I even tried to encode MPEG-2 video using the ffmpeg.exe v0.4.8 shipped together with ffmpegGUI beta 0.3 (the one which contains the fixed AC-3 encoder). But this CLI always assumed a target bitrate of "2 kbps" (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=463084#post463084) (not to mention that AVS sources are impossible). From this point of view, QuEnc is at least working... ;)

Good work, Nic, and awaiting the next releases...

Nic

23rd March 2004, 14:27

I've been working on the rate control...
It's working a lot better now, CBR (Non VBR) works, and the rate control will hit pretty much the desired target now. Will be out in the next release.

(@Harry: These ratecontrol changes stop the pulsing you saw two (which was to do with heavy bitrate fluctuation))

The thing is you cant set a minimum or a maximum bitrate with libavcodec. For one minimum always has to be 0 now, or the rate control doesnt work. secondly max birate desired bitrate have to be close together and slightly higher than you want. basicaly ratecontrol isn't working as expected.....

But ill work on it :)

-Nic

kwag

23rd March 2004, 14:41

Originally posted by Nic

@kwag: great bug showing clip...any chance you get me that part of the original file? so that I can recreate the error, im sure it can be fixed...

-Nic
Hi Nic,

Any footage that has a high contrast, like a bright horizontal lamp or bright source against a dark background (like the clip I provided), will show the same faults.
Actually, the faults are dated back to the original MPEG Software Simulation Group sources.
If I recall correctly, It's all in the rate control routines.
When I was working on the KVCD encoder, I recall fixing some of that, but don't remember exactly where in the code. It was back in 2002. But the file is "ratectl.c", which I modified the sources from the MPEG Group, 2mpeg1 project and some things from the same file of the DVDx project. Then the quantization flaw was fixed. If you want, PM me and I'll send you that function, and maybe you can pull out the parts that correct the problem.

Stupid me!, you can get the sources here: http://kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1825

-kwag

Nic

23rd March 2004, 15:45

@kwag:
I tried artificially making some similar footage but to no avail. If you could somehow get me a clip that when encoded illustrates the problem that would be real useful, because then i'd send it to the ffmpeg team.

kwag

23rd March 2004, 15:47

Originally posted by Nic
@kwag:
I tried artificially making some similar footage but to no avail. If you could somehow get me a clip that when encoded illustrates the problem that would be real useful, because then i'd send it to the ffmpeg team.
Let me cut that part from the VOB, and I'll give you a link to download.
Also, check my previous post. I edited it with a link to the sources.

-kwag

SeeMoreDigital

23rd March 2004, 16:04

My god this could be good...

Nics perseverance with a sprinkling of kwags Mpeg1 VCD matrices could add up to the best looking low bitrate Mpeg1 seen in years...

I never could get that ACP application to work properly :(

Cheers guys

kwag

23rd March 2004, 16:05

Hi Nic,

Here you go: http://www.kvcd.org/nic.vob.cut.7.vob
Let me know when you download it, so I can delete it from the server.

-kwag

bilu

23rd March 2004, 16:17

Nic,

If you're able to fix that rate control problem, please submit a patch to the ffmpeg developers. Linux users are people too ;)

Bilu

kwag

23rd March 2004, 16:25

@Nic,

The problem is related to the use of the notch matrix + Trellis.
I just tested using notch + trellis, and the fault is seen.
Disabling Trellis, the fault is gone!
Could you confirm this?

-kwag

Nic

23rd March 2004, 16:27

On that tiny clip I get cant get the problem to reoccur...it actually might be fixed in the latest CVS. Ill post a new version here tonight and see if that solves the issue...

-Nic

@bilu:
It's not a patch :( It's just a workaround on what values to set to get a good outcome....

Nic

23rd March 2004, 16:34

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

* Latest CVS (with iDCT permutation fix)
* Ok, hopefully this has better rate control.
* Removed some of the options I'd added. As most of the options people recommend are bad for the video! (time taken > != Better Quality)

-Nic

tickey

23rd March 2004, 17:32

I can't get 0.44 working...
Failed on AVS load
Does wxyz.avs exist?Error code 26
then
-error "could not open input file"

both avi or dvd source
-both open, encode in 0.43

Nic

23rd March 2004, 17:39

That error was in there to try and help sidders....dont know why it doesnt work Grrrrr...

anyway:
http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe (0.45)
turns that error off.

-Nic

tickey

23rd March 2004, 17:46

.45 working,encoding :sly:

sidders

23rd March 2004, 18:08

Still at work - will try that new version when I get home. Cheers Nic

ffroms

23rd March 2004, 18:09

I had same problem like tickey. Also I had problem with simple script and with message "ConvertToYV12()".
I've made script like this one
AviSource("C:\test.avi",false) and QuEnc returns
"Failed on AVS Load!
Does file c:\test.avs exist? (Errorcode: 126)"
Then I changed script to
AviSource("C:\test.avi") then I have message
"AVS File is not outputing
(Use ConvertToYV12()at end of script)"
I've changed script back to
AviSource("C:\test.avi",false) and opened it in VirtualDubMod and then minimized VDubMod (not closing) and try again and everything went well without any error. I guess there is some problem with QuEnc and connecting with avisynth. This test was made with QuEnc0.44
Didn't try it with DVD2AVI project yet.

FFS

Nic

23rd March 2004, 18:20

Try 0.45,

AviSynth has a problem that if you do an AVIFileOpen on a .avs file that does not exist it doesn't return any error ?!? Hence you get the YV12 error even for files that arent there.

0.45 should be ok for everyone else, but still might not work for sidders

Nocturno

23rd March 2004, 19:17

@Nic things are looking better,but not quite fixed

All tests : High quality = on , Trellis = off
Version 0.45 used

tested: 40 second clip at 7909 bitrate

CBR - filesize perfect! : 41,057,389
VBR - Filesize way undersized : 6,882,331
2-pass - No vbr filesize perfect!: 41,192,645
2-pass - vbr : 6,873,084

CCE filesize : 41,274,092

problem still exists if i use VBR.

Nic

23rd March 2004, 19:22

That's really weird...have no idea...on mine im more likely to get oversize than undersize now...i.e.

78 second ( 54meg ) MPEG-2 File
VBR One pass 7909kbps makes a file thats:
75,794,539
Should have been
77,112,750

Hmmm, ill keep on trying....

-Nic

ps
@Nocturno:
Could you give me a few more of your settings....GOP Size, MPEG-1 or MPEG-2, Closed GOP on/off, etc
(just tried with MPEG-1, rate control didnt work as well...was your test with MPEG-1, could you try the same clip with MPEG-2 VBR just to check?)

kwag

23rd March 2004, 19:42

File size target working like a charm here.
The movie I encoded (one pass VBR), with an average bitrate of 1709.2Kbps, created a target size of 1,332,485KB and the wanted size (based on my calculator) was 1,365,477KB.
So that's not bad at all!

@Nic,
With 0.45, you obviously did something different, or something changed on the CVS. I just tested the same clip WITH Trellis + Notch enabled, and there are no artifacts at all! So whatever it was, it's gone :)

Note: Could you change the extension to .m1v when MPEG-1 is selected?

Edit: Sample encoded with version 0.45 + Notch + Trellis. GOP=18. Open GOP. 2 B-frames. Target average bitrate 1709Kbps. (target for ~3 movies per DVD media). Using plain .avs script, with only "Deen()" as filter.
http://www.kvcd.org/quenc-test.m2v

Thanks,
-kwag

ffroms

23rd March 2004, 19:58

Originally posted by Nic
Try 0.45,

AviSynth has a problem that if you do an AVIFileOpen on a .avs file that does not exist it doesn't return any error ?!? Hence you get the YV12 error even for files that arent there.

0.45 should be ok for everyone else, but still might not work for sidders

Acctualy I was using AVI as source. If I set without audio with AVISource("xxxxx.avi",false) than it returns that there is no file to open, but when I set AVISource("xxxxx.avi") then I get error about YV12 even AVI is at right place and AVI is YV12. When I open same AVS with VirtualDubMod and then use QuEnc everything is OK. It looks like QuEnc needs VirtualDubMod to connect with avisynth. I don't know.
I can't test new 0.45 'couse can't get to your site. I'll try later.

FFS

DDogg

23rd March 2004, 20:25

Using 0.45, I can easily reproduce the pulsing problem when using MPEG1 on the segment of frames 2225 to 2400 of "Missing". This is using a standard avisynth script with no resize opening a ff d2v (dg)with mpeg2decDG.

This is with or without trellis, with or without Notch, or with both turned off or on. Nic, would having a vob segment be useful to you? I would have to ftp up to you, Kwag or somebody with space as I don't have any place to put it.

I did a complete reproducible test kit. If needed, it is 9.4 megs.

Nocturno

23rd March 2004, 21:03

@Nocturno:
Could you give me a few more of your settings....GOP Size, MPEG-1 or MPEG-2, Closed GOP on/off, etc
(just tried with MPEG-1, rate control didnt work as well...was your test with MPEG-1, could you try the same clip with MPEG-2 VBR just to check?)

i didn't change any of the default settings, and yes i encoded to mpeg-2

settings where :
Mpeg-2

bitrate:7909
use vbr: checked on
High Quality : checked on
Use trellis : off
2-pass encoding: on (tried on and off .. no difference for VBR problem)

Force closed gop : off
use kvcd matrix : off
gop size : 12
max b-frames : 2
16:9 aspect

Undersizing only occurs at vbr mode .. cbr seems allright now.

TFM_TheMask

23rd March 2004, 21:45

Great Job Nic, I have only a few requests and one problem.

requests:

1) is it possible to add to the cmd line the option to choose between VBR and CBR.

2) is it possible to add to the cmd line the option High Quality on/off.

Problem

When I run QuEnc in cmd line mode (with the -close tag) and the encoding has finished Quenc dissapears from the screen but resides in memory (You can still see that Quenc is active in the Task Manager).

When I run QuEnc the normal way and it has finished encoding, and I close Quenc manualy (Quit button) I get a windows read error on memory.

Has someone got this error also?

TFM_TheMask

23rd March 2004, 22:02

A few other issues

In cmd line mode when I choose -aspectratio 4:3 I got a 16:9 encoded video. When I use -aspectratio 16:9 I got a 4:3 encoded video.

When I encoded a mpeg1 movie and then want to make a mpeg2 movie with cmd line mode (so leaving the -mpeg1 tag) QuEnc still encodes a mpeg1 movie.

Is this the same with you Nic?

Nic

23rd March 2004, 22:18

@TFM: Thanks for the bugreport, it's hard for me to test everything so I do miss bits. Ill fix those in the next release.

@Ddogg: you got a PM :)

@Nocturno: I really dont understand that...ill see if I can find a clip of mine that produces the same problems...VBR's worked ok for me so far.

sidders

23rd March 2004, 22:44

SOLVED IT! Having recently reformatted my PC, I was using version 2.08 of AVISynth - changed to 2.54 with compatable version of MPEG2DEc3.dll and everything is fine!

Thanks for the help Nic - seems great so far!

Prosper

24th March 2004, 00:57

First off, let me say thank you for such a useful little program, it rocks!

One thing that I have noticed though - it doesn't like it when I run multiple instances, working on different videos simultaneously (2 processor machine). The first pass works OK but once that's finished, both instances start trying to encode the same video on the second pass. IE Instance 1 encoding clip 'A,' instance 2 encoding clip 'B.' Once the first pass for 'A' and 'B' is finished, instance 1 and 2 start on the second pass, both encoding clip 'A.'

vmesquita

24th March 2004, 00:58

Great! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Now I know what will be the encoder for DIKO... AVS support, full command-line, GOP and KVCD matrix... How could I ask for more?
I'll put QuEnc integration for DIKO this is high priority "To-do" list! Thanks Nic for the great work. :)

Matthaeus

24th March 2004, 01:18

@Nic:
Hey, the VBV sizes are correct now! (reported by
bbMPEG's multiplexer). Thanks a lot! However the maximum bitrate is ~2.6 Mbps when encoding MPEG-1 video (should be 1150 kbps for VCD compliance).

Btw, would you add more Aspect ratio options or Custom AR option?

Some common PAR values for VideoCD:
1.0000 (Square pels) - already exists in QuEnc
PAL:
0.9375 (CCIR601 625 lines)
0.7031 (16:9 625 lines)
NTSC:
1.1250 (CCIR601 525 lines)
0.8437 (16:9 525 lines)

jdobbs

24th March 2004, 01:25

@Nic

Great job. This encoder is getting to be quite the tool!

Thanks.

human75

24th March 2004, 01:27

This is my old message

"Create AVS script DoITFAST4U.Tested QuEnc 0.41 an average bitrate of VBR 4000. I didn't get a good quality.CCE is good on VBR 4000 but QuEnc 0.41 bad quality.what is wrong?Thanks for ideas. "

this is my new message :=))
everything is same (my avs script and avi file and other)
but quality is wonderfull with QuEnc 0.45,but i have some question.
i encode my .avs file with QuEnc 0.45 and CCE. and I check my .m2v and .mpv file with bitrate viewer program.
Bitrate viewer report this results:
QuEnc 0.45 .m2v results
---------------------------------------------
Num. of picture read: 8394
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 23.98
Nom. bitrate: 13333600 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 8
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive
Notes:
-------------------------------------------------
CCE .mpv results
Num. of picture read: 11192
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 23.98
Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 9
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive
Notes:
-----------------------------------------------
.avs is same.
My questions
QuEnc Nom. bitrate: 13333600 Bit/Sec!!! but CCE Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
and
Field topfirst: Yes in CCE but Field topfirst: No in QuENC 0.45.This is normal and DVD compliant!If your answer is no!How can i fix this problem.Thanks for great encoder.

Sorry for bad english

DDogg

24th March 2004, 02:26

human75, regarding "Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec", first check if you have "DVD compliant" checked in CCE. If so, uncheck it and rerun your test.

HarryM

24th March 2004, 08:17

Originally posted by Nic
@TFM: Thanks for the bugreport, it's hard for me to test everything so I do miss bits. Ill fix those in the next release.

I notice this bug too.
And another bug - If I select MPEG1 instead MPEG2, I get suffix="M2V" still, paradoxly for MPEG1 too.

Corectly is - "M1V" for MPEG1, "M2V" for MPEG2

"Pulsation" don't exists anymore with v0.45. :D
Tmpgenc produces better quality still, unfortunately with half speed.
Quenc is devil quick. :devil:

Nic

24th March 2004, 09:54

Im not around for the rest of the day, but thanks for the feedback.

@Matthaeus: MPEG-1 Does have wacky Aspect Ratio info, I noticed that...ill add a drop downlist.

@Prosper: It's because they'll both be trying to use the same logfile. Ill make it so the logfiles are created using the name of the encoding avs and then deleted afterwards.

Nocturno

24th March 2004, 18:57

@nic

i did another test , this time with pal material,same settings..same problem as before.. it came out 16mb instead of 40.

my .avs reads:

LoadPlugin("D:\avi2dvd\filters\mpeg2dec3.dll")
v1 = avisource("D:\scary\(ASH)Nissan Skyline GTR.avi",False)
v2 = Blankclip()
AudioDub(v1,v2)
LanczosResize(720,424,0.0,0.6)
AddBorders(0,28,0,28)
trim(0,1000)

using avisynth 2.54

source=704x528.

only difference in avisynth script is with CCE is use :
converttoyuy2()
and with Quenc i leave that line out as avisynth outputs YV12

have you tried divx/xvid to dvd res with my script?

(and i know aspect is wrong, it's just a test script ;) )

djan

25th March 2004, 00:09

Hi Nic, just to let you know your Encoder is amazing, I see no difference with CCE. I'm sorry about when I said the quality was poor at low bitrates. Now that you resolved the major bugs, your encoder works very well. Keep up your great work on both ReJig and QuEnc.

Nic

25th March 2004, 12:31

@djan: Thanks :) And hopefully it will get better and better

@Ddogg: Have you tried your test clip with QuEnc 0.45? I can't repeat the problems you were having...

-Nic

dragongodz

25th March 2004, 12:47

Nic - did you get my message and email ?

Nic

25th March 2004, 15:54

Yup, havent had chance to reply...been busy. But will soon! :)

DDogg

25th March 2004, 16:44

@Ddogg: Have you tried your test clip with QuEnc 0.45? I can't repeat the problems you were having... That is surprising. Yes, I did use .045 for the test. The settings were mpeg1 @2500, VBR, HQ, trellis, notch, 4:3. ALthough I could reproduce it with any settings so long as MPEG1 was selected.

So that you can see, I uploaded the encoded segment to the same place as last time - "ddogg-test-clip.rar". You should see obvious pulsing.

Nic

25th March 2004, 16:53

Didn't realise it was with MPEG-1 you got that effect. Tried again, and I get it too. Thanks for the clip, ill get that fixed :)

edit:ok, found out why, due to parameter: rc_buffer_aggressivity
Will be fixed with new release.

edit: I take that back...it's actually to do with the VBV size...what frame size were you encoding this at 720x? something?

edit: Ok, happens at all frame sizes. Raising the VBV to 224 removes it, but that isn't VCD compliant. Hopefully it will be fixed in libavcodec soon.

-Nic

tuco

25th March 2004, 18:37

I recently tried .45 and with mpeg1 VBR, 2pass, I get severely undersized files (target was 700 mpeg but got 135 mpeg) with peaks above 3000 kbps. I just did a test trying to create VCD complaint file and no problems whatsoever :) If it is possible, could you add support to add min/max bitrates.

thanks

Nic

25th March 2004, 18:49

I know, not much I can do, rate control is broken for small buffersizes (like MPEG-1 VCD 40kb VBV), should be fixed soon. No I can't add min and max bitrates because they don't work the same way as something like CCE and you'll end up with severely undersized files again. (also you no longer set minimum bitrates in ffmpeg...and setting minimum quantizer to force bigger files hurts the quality)

-Nic

LigH

25th March 2004, 23:11

Very interesting: Tried to encode a small clip to a PAL DVD video; it was probably quite soft and unsharp, but has also lots of motion and fades - I don't know if it is hard or easy to encode, usually I thought it is hard. So I gave it a bitrate of 6000 kbps - but it did not even need much more than 4000 kbps. And I'm not sure if it really has maximum quality. I somehow doubt that the bitrate control in general works well in ffmpeg, and so also in QuEnc.

Or on the other hand, the encoder may be so much better than CCE...

DDogg

25th March 2004, 23:35

the encoder may be so much better than CCE I don't know about that yet, but the fact that we are seeing a non-proprietary encoding solution is the exciting part for me. Like Nic suggested in some thread, you sure can't beat the price.

Maybe later we can do some accurate, and non subjective tests on quality. I think that is still down the road after more work on the innards of this encoder are done as there is still quite a way to go. Still, the progress and quality are amazing and the prospect of having a non-proprietary MPEG solution for our community is a great thing to look forward to.

lithoc

25th March 2004, 23:46

there're a lot of parameters in ffmpeg which Quenc doesn't have. For example sameq, qcomp, qscale, qmax and qmin & maxrate.
I'm not too sure which one is useful but it can be useful to create quality mpeg.

DDogg

26th March 2004, 03:51

Nic, I've been puzzled by the bitrate control of MPEG2 VBR HQ 1-pass [and 2-pass] so I did some 1-pass VBR HQ TQ tests with a 1% sample of a 2:18:37 hour d2v source. I do not understand exactly what the data means except there seems to be an artificial bitrate cap - so I thought I would share it with you :)

Bitrate Filesize (bytes)| For reference I put a few CBR sizes
0500.m2v 5,264,042
1000.m2v 10,364,516 (CBR pass - 10,388,076 bytes)
2000.m2v 20,175,489 linear

2500.m2v 21,595,425 (CBR pass - 26,026,262 bytes)
2600.m2v 21,670,441
2700.m2v 21,723,518
2800.m2v 21,764,422
2900.m2v 21,812,769
3000.m2v 21,843,315
3200.m2v 21,899,363
3500.m2v 21,946,655 (CBR pass - 36,394,427 bytes)
3750.m2v 21,978,178

4000.m2v 21,984,102 Same (CBR pass - 41,590,740 bytes)
4500.m2v 21,984,102
5000.m2v 21,984,102 (CBR pass - 52,028,216 bytes)
6000.m2v 21,984,102 (CBR pass - 62,465,632 bytes)
8000.m2v 21,984,102 (CBR pass - 83,359,258 bytes)

Stef

26th March 2004, 09:53

Using 0.45 on a Windows 98SE system with avisynth 2.52. QuEnc is really a nice tool!

But i get a program error with crash in Kernel32.dll when QuEnc exits. The error is very nasty and later started programs exit with the same error...

Maybe a system resource is given free twice or in the wrong order?

Bye
Stefan

Amenophis

26th March 2004, 10:29

Originally posted by Nic
No I can't add min and max bitrates because they don't work the same way as something like CCE and you'll end up with severely undersized files again.

Mencoder uses the same libav codec and there the files have the right size (tested with avg bitrates between 1000 and 6000 kbit/s.) when using a maxbitrate, so there must a way to set the max. bitrate. When have you tested 'rc_max_rate'? If it was before you added the parameters i suggested some days ago, then this could be the reason for the nevertheless undersized files.

Nic

26th March 2004, 12:18

Could you post the parameters you used with mencoder and also the reason? With your last post, some of the options didn't seem to make sense as to why you'd pick them ?
i.e.
mbd:0 // is the lowest quality motion option ??
vrc_override=110200,115248,1000 // means your overriding frames 110200-115248 with a qscale of 1000 ?? Why only frames 110200-115248 ?? why 1000 ??

etc

-Nic

Jellygoose

26th March 2004, 12:49

Hi Nic!

Alright. Testet QuEnc .45 today, and here's my result:

High Quality checked, 2-Passes checked, Trellis checked, closed GOP, Bitrate 2350kb/sec. 704x576 resolution 25fps...
Output: MPEG-2 w/ KVCD-Notch Matrix

Results look rather bad, I can clearly see big DCT blocks in low detail areas. This actually might be due to the fact that the encoded file is way undersized. According to VDub, it has 1701kb/sec, where should be 2350kb/sec...
Note: This is with 2-pass used
Could it be due to the number of B-Frames I used (standard 2)?

Anyway, the app looks very promising Nic, and I'm just trying to give you some results for you to kill bugs, as they are present.
:D

BtW: If you want to see more talk about your app, including visual tests go here: http://kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9683&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

insertdisk

26th March 2004, 13:23

Is there a setting somewhere to enable interlaced output? I am doing some testing on DV footage and it looks pretty nice but it is putting out progressive frames.

Nic

26th March 2004, 13:25

@Jellygoose: Because of the problems with the ratecontrol, the quality does vary, when the rate control works out, the files do look really good.

Im compiling Mencoder now to see if the same effects happen. From the parameters ive seen posted using Mencoder at kvcd, people really don't understand the parameters, nevermind those that are used in QuEnc...so it's all a bit confusing at present. It'll get better...early days.

-Nic

Amenophis

26th March 2004, 13:32

@Nic:

mbd:0 // i've choosen this one because of the speed. the quality difference between mdb=0 und mbd=2 is hardly noticeable, and (at least for dvd-bitrates) not worth loosing 30-40% of the framerate. mbd=1 wouldn't i suggest at all, same speed like =2, but not so good quality.

vrc_override=110200,115248,1000 // this was a pasted commandline from one of my encodes, there bitween frame 110200 and 115248 were used for the credits, which were compressed by 1000% (10 times stronger than calculated by the ratecontrol). i don't know if it works in libav the same way, because there you can pass 2 values in the corresponding struct. Leaving this away shouldn't affect the filesize-problem.

vqmin=1:mbqmin=1:lmin=1: // these values are needed if you want to use a minimum quantizer =1. without you won't be able to reach avg. bitrates above 3000-4000 kbit/s. all of these values are needed for that, because you can't encode a whole frame with avg. quant 1, if you force the encoder to encode each macroblock with at least quant 2 (default)

:vb_qfactor=1.25:vi_qfactor=0.833333: // b-frames get more compressed (p-frames * 1.25) while i-frames will get better quality (lower compression: p-frames * 0.83)

:vratetol=1835: the tolerance of the rate control algorithm. a low value will 'smooth' the bitrate-curve, while a high value will lead to a lot of ups and downs. this value seems to be ok

:cbp: coded block pattern: seems to improve quality, only useful when using trellis encoding.

:vlelim=-4:vcelim=-7: standard values of mencoder

:vrc_buf_size=1835: buffer size for dvd (=224*8*1.024) for svcd it should be 917.

Matthaeus

26th March 2004, 14:11

@Nic & Amenophis:

The option "vrc_override=110200,115248,1000" compresses frames 110200 to 115248 with qscale=10. The documentation of mencoder is incorrect; you must pass quant*100 as the 3rd argument instead of quant! But I've checked ffmpeg, too, and passing the quantizer (not quantizer*100!) as 3rd argument seems to be working correctly.

Nic

26th March 2004, 15:51

@Amenophis: Thanks alot...strange you can't see quality differences between the simple ME and rate distortion decision...there should be.
EDIT: Just tried out your settings :) They worked great, I think they limit the encoder a bit, but they keep the size accurate. Just encoded a 78sec file at 5MBit size should be: 48750000
MPEG-1 (VBR): 49,284,319
MPEG-2 (VBR): 49,279,299
(So not too bad at all, but it is pretty much a CBR file because of the low rate tolerance :( )

libavcodec is having it's ratecontrol re-written and the mpeg code has just been patched to be better for CBR. So that's a step in the right direction...

-Nic

bilu

26th March 2004, 19:32

Originally posted by Nic
libavcodec is having it's ratecontrol re-written and the mpeg code has just been patched to be better for CBR. So that's a step in the right direction...
Indeed :)

A lot of encoders will get improved when Michael Niedermayer finishes the ratecontrol code.

Then we can start focusing on quality parameters again, so far everybody has been focused on the ratecontrol behaviour on every libavcodec-based encoder: FFVFW, Mencoder, FFMPEG...

@Nic,
How are you feeding AVS to FFMpeg? A modified FFVFW MakeAVIS ?
It would be neat if Sh0dan or anyone else provided a command-line version of this so we could use it with Mencoder too ;)

Bilu

insertdisk

27th March 2004, 04:37

Please add support for `-interlace' in commandline format for the output stream if possible. I think this is gonna do a fine job on DV footage.

Nic

27th March 2004, 10:10

@bilu:
"How are you feeding AVS to FFMpeg?"
Through the medium of dance... ;)

Seriously though, I just use the AVI API to get the raw frame then feed it into libavcodec. I could modify mencoder to load AVS files, but it would be tedious and I wouldn't learn anything. I only do that kind of coding when im getting paid to do it. ;)

@insertdisk: Will do.

bilu

27th March 2004, 10:50

Originally posted by Nic
I only do that kind of coding when im getting paid to do it. ;)

Let's enjoy your last free QuEnc versions then. :D

Bilu

Mozart

28th March 2004, 18:54

Hi Nic and Ddogg,

"Somebach" told me there were an interesting thread here... He was right as usual.
Nic, your GUI version of ffmpeg have a high potential. It is just missing those other settings of original ffmpeg. What about an "advanced" GUI with all settings enabled (at least the mpeg specific settings)?

Originally posted by DDogg
Nic, I see you are still a glutton for punishment :)

(...) Also, just being curious (you got enough pressure), does the base of this encoder you are using have a quant based technique? I'm more interested in constant quality (to use that term very loosely) than bitrate/size.

Hope you are doing well, and that the ends of those fingernails can still be seen.

This is possible to be done using ffmpeg commandline. Edit the following code and save as a .bat file and you will have a quantizer based encode "a la" CCE 1passVBR.

PATH:\bbdmux.exe PATH:\SOURCE.vob 0xe0 PATH:\temp_vts.m2v
PATH:\pulldown.exe PATH:\temp_vts.m2v PATH:\temp_vts1_nopull.m2v -nopulldown -norff -prog_seq p -prog_frames p -framerate 23.976
PATH:\ffmpeg.exe -i PATH:\temp_vts1_nopull.m2v -target dvd -r 24000/1001 -bt 2000 -s 720x480 -aspect 16:9 -maxrate 8000 -qmin 4 -vcodec mpeg2video -g 15 -b_qfactor 1.2 -i_qfactor 1 -bf 2 -sc_threshold 400 -an PATH:\temp_ffmpeg.vob
PATH:\bbdmux.exe PATH:\temp_ffmpeg.vob 0xe0 PATH:\TARGET.m2v

onesoul

28th March 2004, 21:51

Hi Mozart, you refer somebach, aren't you Bach? Never understood the deleting of all posts!

jorel

28th March 2004, 22:09

Originally posted by onesoul
Hi Mozart, you refer somebach, aren't you Bach? Never understood the deleting of all posts!

no ,he isn't Bach !
not kiddin....
they are differents musicians!

Mozart is another cool person and music maker too!
"listen" his posts!

:)

DDogg

29th March 2004, 05:47

Mozart, good to see your post. I certainly hope you made it through your PhD dissertation (if I remember correctly)unscathed.

Wow, those 4 lines above certainly contain a lot of information, however, it is important we keep this thread on topic to nic's work so I will PM you about that soon. Maybe we can start another thread. I have a ton of questions :)

Getting back on topic (sorta), the reason I asked nic to consider adding quant based encoding if ffmpeg allowed it was because of the clean way he opens an AVS script. I thought this would make it very familiar and comfortable for us to do the file size prediction sampling in the common way we do for CCE OPV.

However, after playing around with your suggested lines above, I can see that the the difference in file size between quant 4 and quant 2 is a *full doubling* of file size (assuming I did the test right). That makes predicting file size via sampling impossible unless the ffmpeg group were willing to make it a much finer range. That may not even be feasible as I don't know the slightest thing about the way the underlaying encoder functions. If I am mistaken, please PM me directly.

Again, good to hear from you and I hope you are no longer a stranger to our forums. oh, please do be very careful about your associations with those rascal somebachs - hanging around with them could make you completely unstable, bald, and socially unacceptable :cool:

Best, DD

yaz

29th March 2004, 09:19

@all
i agree with ddogg. pls, keep this thread as 'clean' as possible. i mean, let's keep it for nic & his cute little tool. it's very promising, imo.
on the other hand, i'd be glad if some other threads'd be opened for the different encoders. i've been playing a lot with mencoder, ffmpeg, ffvfw, ... & i have (many) more quests than answers. but at the moment, i don't know where to address them.
thx
y

laura_glow

29th March 2004, 17:00

Hi!

Im trying to convert from MJPEG avi to MPEG2.
for this, im doing the following:

i convert the avi to mpg with ffmpeg like this:

ffmpeg -i REF3048.avi -y -f mpeg -vcodec mpeg2video -ac 2 -b 7963 -aspect 4:3 -croptop 2 -cropbottom 4 -ildct out\TRA3106.mpg

I have the sound in two separate files (wav)
so my avisinth .avs file looks like this:

video = DirectShowSource("c:\program files\ffmpeg\out\TRA3106.mpg")
left_channel = wavSource("c:\program files\ffmpeg\TRA3106.A1.wav")
right_channel = wavSource("c:\program files\ffmpeg\TRA3106.A2.wav")

audio = MixAudio(left_channel, right_channel, 0.5, 0.5)
vid = AudioDub(video, audio)
ComplementParity (vid)
ConvertToYV12(vid)

i open it with QuEnc and the resulting file doesent have any sound... any ideas?

I tried MonoToStereo but one of the wav files doesent have any sound..
When i open the .avs in virtualdubmod i can hear the sound

LigH

29th March 2004, 17:09

As far as I know, QuEnc is a video-only encoder.

You may use the AviSynth skript in another MPEG encoder (like TMPGEnc) to encode mp2 audio from your script.

laura_glow

29th March 2004, 19:56

I need to do a batch job with a lot of videos to convert in the mentioned format (one post up) any suggestion? :(

LigH

29th March 2004, 20:29

Write a batch file (may call it "que.bat") with a content like that:
C:\Program Files\QuEnc\QuEnc -i %1 -(options...) -o %2
This calls the encoder with two parameters: The first one is the name of the source script, the second is the name of the target movie. All scripts must already be prepared and must reside in the same directory. Then call the encoding in a loop from the command line of CMD.EXE:
FOR /F %I IN (*.avs) DO CALL que.bat %I ?:\output-dir\%~nI.m2v

katjarella

29th March 2004, 20:50

FOR /F is NOT WORKING !!!!

FOR /R [[drive:]path] %variable IN (set) DO command [command-parameters]

Walks the directory tree rooted at [drive:]path, executing the FOR
statement in each directory of the tree. If no directory
specification is specified after /R then the current directory is
assumed. If set is just a single period (.) character then it
will just enumerate the directory tree.

FOR /R is better :)

unplugged

29th March 2004, 21:01

If we want a CCE substitute we should consider the quality part as high priority, but looking into forum it seems there isn't much interest about (why??), at least for libavcodec/mencoder, apart trying 10571289 milions of custom made matrixes :D.
It's not clear which switches are *better* with libavcodec encoding but despite this looking around the web I have found and collected these as quite trusted:

mbd=2:mv0:trell:cbp:subcmp=2:cmp=2:Precmp=2:Predia=2:dia=2
means high quality encoding + ??? + trellis quant + rate distorted optimal coded block pattern + SATD comparison function + diamond size 2
One other important point is that B-frame quality with libavcodec is too skippy relatively to P-frame, don't know if it inflates much bitrate but I use vb_qfactor=1.25 and vb_qoffset=1.0 (default 1.25 too) and the result is acceptable now.

Nic, I hope you will implement some of this (and other) key switches that influence output quality, QuEnc is an useful program but at same time why don't take the best out of libavcodec.
I have made some short clip comparison with CCE, actually QuEnc quality isn't comparable... neither against mencoder (when well set), too blurry (3000kbps tests), especially B-frames has no detail everywhere. :(

P.S.: my current mencoder cmdline:C:\App\Media\Mencoder\mencoder.exe -forceidx -of mpeg -ovc lavc -nosound -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg2video:
mbd=2:mv0:trell:cbp:subcmp=2:cmp=2:Precmp=2:Predia=2:dia=2:vmax_b_frames=2:vb_qfactor=1.25:vb_qoffset=1.0:keyint=15:aspect=16/9:vrc_buf_size=1835:
intra_matrix=8,16,19,22,26,27,29,34,16,16,22,24,27,29,34,37,19,22,26,27,29,34,34,38,22,22,26,27,29,34,37,40,22,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,58,26,27,29,34,38,46,56,69,27,29,35,38,46,56,69,83:inter_matrix=16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27,20,21,22,23,25,26,27,28,21,22,23,24,26,27,28,30,22,23,24,26,27,28,30,31,23,24,25,27,28,30,31,33:vratetol=1835:vqcomp=0.5:vpass=%5:vbitrate=%3:vrc_maxrate=%4 %1 -o %2
matrix is CCE "standard MPEG" that is 99.99% identical to XviD MPEG matrix.

laura_glow

29th March 2004, 21:25

yes, the batch functionalty of QuEnc is great! but im not getting any sound in the resulting files :(

LigH

29th March 2004, 23:22

@ katjarella & others:

Sorry about that misinformation - I didn't try what I wrote, shame on me. From the help text of the "FOR" command, I thought that "/F" is necessary for those "%~" extended variables to work.

On the other side, I did not expect "/R" to be used because I don't expect recursively walking through the directory branch.
__

@ laura_glow:

Good morning: QuEnc seems to be a "video-only" encoder, as I already wrote a few answers above ^.

tickey

30th March 2004, 03:18

Originally posted by Mozart
This is possible to be done using ffmpeg commandline. Edit the following code and save as a .bat file and you will have a quantizer based encode "a la" CCE 1passVBR.

PATH:\bbdmux.exe

<snip>

PATH:\TARGET.m2v
Hey thanks 4 posting that, hanving fun testing ffmpeg, now :D
I already had the tool from here
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?toolsearch=ffmpeggui&section=&orderby=Name&convert=&dvdauthorfeatures=
but only transcoding audio.

With your batch file, I jumped right in :cool:

rayvt

30th March 2004, 04:39

DDVRebuilder conversion time comparisons.
Italian Job WS 159007 frames, 1:50:24, 6624 seconds
Reduction=81.8
Main movie only, ripped with smartripper, converted to DVD with
IFOEdit.
Rebuilt with DVDRebuilder v0.23 on AMD2400+, 1024MB ram

Times in seconds
CCE2.66.01.07
Prep....157
Encod...6389
Rebld...1218
Total...7764

Rejig 0.5e
Prep....797
Encod...892
Rebld...1191
Total...2880

QuEnc 0.45
Prep....156
Encod...8231
Rebld...905
Total...9292

DVDShrink 3.1.7.6
Total...3420

Comments: After a brief look at the converted movies I didn't see any
noticable difference in the video quality between any of the encoders.

djan

30th March 2004, 05:57

Originally posted by rayvt

Comments: After a brief look at the converted movies I didn't see any
noticable difference in the video quality between any of the encoders. With Reduction=81.8, it's something normal. Try a movie of 50%-70% reduction and you'll see the difference.

Nic

30th March 2004, 10:36

@unplugged: Nothing is ever simple. People keep suggesting switches and great features of libavcodec, for me to look thru the code (or do a PSNR test and look with my own eyes) and realise that they really don't know what they're talking about. But your settings are good. I've tried them myself before (and they do all make sense ;) which is rare with these suggestions). Ill add them in soon (they do slow down the encoding a great deal (cdp,mv0 and trellis do help psnr lots). However, QuEnc will never have that many options, because I hate the confusion that people have with all ffmepg/mencoder options. Been real busy. Spent Sunday aggravating Fred Durst to the point where he tried to spit on me and my friend. Still, we got our point across ;)

@rayvt: Glad it all worked out well.

@laura_glow: Yup, no sound, sorry. I could add it in if people wanted it. It's not hard to do. Be aware that the MPEG-2 Audio Encoding of libavcodec is very simple. Love your deviantart. ;)

Back to work....

-Nic

Wimpy

30th March 2004, 11:56

Hi,

I have been testing QuEnc 0.45 in conjunction with DVD-RB 0.26. What a great combo :-) I am seeing the undersized video output that has been discussed previously, so I won't bore you with the details but wait to test the next QuEnc version.

Here is the little bug. If I use the QuEnc GUI to encode a .AVS to MPEG-1 and then use DVD-RB (using QuEnc) to do a DVD Encode/Rebuild, QuEnc still has the MPEG-1 option checked in the GUI. Therefore my .M2V created by DVD-RB is actually an MPEG-1 stream.

Maybe you can enhance the '-mpeg1' command line usage, so that if it is not defined MPEG-2 output is assumed?

Thanks for a great tool, I look forward to its contnued development :-)

djan

30th March 2004, 13:20

Originally posted by Wimpy
Here is the little bug. If I use the QuEnc GUI to encode a .AVS to MPEG-1 and then use DVD-RB (using QuEnc) to do a DVD Encode/Rebuild, QuEnc still has the MPEG-1 option checked in the GUI. Therefore my .M2V created by DVD-RB is actually an MPEG-1 stream.

Maybe you can enhance the '-mpeg1' command line usage, so that if it is not defined MPEG-2 output is assumed? It's maybe to jdobbs to define it when it calls QuEnc ? Anyway, are you sure your output files are MPEG1 ? Maybe it is checked MPEG1 but DVDRB calls it using MPEG2 at the vbr it setted ? Take a look.

Wimpy

30th March 2004, 13:23

Hi,

Yes, it is definately an MPEG-1 stream. The only command line option to define what stream type to output from QuEnc is '-mpeg1'. Therefore DVD-RB can't be altered to force MPEG-2 stream creation from the command line unless a '-mpeg2' does exist and is not advertised?

ffroms

30th March 2004, 13:30

I have some other question. What program to use to change TFF and Frame type since QuEnc makes m2v with TFF no and Frame Type Progressive and I need TFF-yes and F. Type - Interlaced? Maybe in some future release of QuEnc it would be possible to set that?

FFS

Nic

30th March 2004, 13:35

@wimpy: I will add a -mpeg2 flag and recommend to jdobbs to add it in.

@ffroms: Ill try and deal with that best I can. :)

ffroms

30th March 2004, 13:42

Thanks for quick replay Nic. That problem is really bothering me 'couse I use PAL DVD and interlace is usual. Hope to see new version soon :))))

FFS

LigH

30th March 2004, 13:58

katjarella found the following two bugs:

1) When you once used the GUI (by calling QuEnc without command line parameters) and set up VBR encoding, then the usage of VBR encoding gets written into the registry. From then, she complains that always VBR encoding is used. But I'm not yet sure what she really means - if there is no command line parameter to enforce CBR encoding, or if there is one (although not documented), but not working. I'll ask back about that...

2) Using an AVS Script with VBR audio stream and EnsureVBRMP3Sync(), the error message with ConvertToYV12() always occurs, although the video output is YV12.

Wimpy

30th March 2004, 14:02

Thanks Nic :-)

onesoul

30th March 2004, 14:08

Nic, what were you doing to Fred Durst? (being curious) :)

Nic

30th March 2004, 14:15

LigH:
1) there is no commandline to enforce cbr, that's probably the problem.
2) Got no idea why that would be...hmmm.

onesoul: getting him to play 3dollarbill

tickey

30th March 2004, 14:32

Originally posted by djan
It's maybe to jdobbs to define it when it calls QuEnc ? Anyway, are you sure your output files are MPEG1 ? Maybe it is checked MPEG1 but DVDRB calls it using MPEG2 at the vbr it setted ? Take a look.
Tell me how DVDRB can force QuEnc? It asks for mpeg1 or mpeg2.
It called for mpeg2 in the commandline and got mpeg1.
Your response makes no sense.

Mozart

30th March 2004, 14:35

Originally posted by yaz
@all
i agree with ddogg. pls, keep this thread as 'clean' as possible. i mean, let's keep it for nic & his cute little tool. it's very promising, imo.
on the other hand, i'd be glad if some other threads'd be opened for the different encoders. i've been playing a lot with mencoder, ffmpeg, ffvfw, ... & i have (many) more quests than answers. but at the moment, i don't know where to address them.
thx
y

??? As far as I can understand, QuEnc is another cover for the same engine used by ffmpeg, mencoder and ffvfw. So, the knowledge about the usage of those other encoders is usefull in QuEnc's development. The higgest advantage of QuEnc over the others is the usage of avs files as source. So, if QuEnc had the other ffmpeg settings enabled, you could use a single command line with just QuEnc instead of that .bat file.

Mozart

30th March 2004, 14:47

Originally posted by DDogg
Wow, those 4 lines above certainly contain a lot of information(...). After playing around with your suggested lines above, I can see that the the difference in file size between quant 4 and quant 2 is a *full doubling* of file size (assuming I did the test right). That makes predicting file size via sampling impossible unless the ffmpeg group were willing to make it a much finer range. That may not even be feasible as I don't know the slightest thing about the way the underlaying encoder functions.

I have used bbdmux and pulldown as a workaround for an anoying ffmpeg bug in its internal vob decoder. It should be possible to do vob->mpv conversion on the fly, using ffmpeg. So, the only important line of that .bat file is the ffmpeg comandline.
Have you seen how flat is the quantization? The only problem is that the qmin setting uses integer values only. If it was possible to use decimal values, such as 2.5, 3.3 or whatever, the file size prediction game would be much more interesting...

djan

30th March 2004, 15:19

Originally posted by tickey
Tell me how DVDRB can force QuEnc? It asks for mpeg1 or mpeg2.
It called for mpeg2 in the commandline and got mpeg1.
Your response makes no sense. I'm sorry but my English is not so good. I mean, it's possible that QuEnc process MPEG2 even when it is showed MPEG1 on the GUI. Don't forget DVDRB makes the call with a command line. So then, it is possible that the GUI means nothing. I can even change the state of the GUI from MPEG2 to MPEG1 while it is encoding. Anyway, it's possible that all I'm telling is wrong. :)

PS : His problem here is that DVDRB can't force an MPEG2 encoding as there is only the -mpeg1 command line option. And if QuEnc was set to MPEG1 before to close, then it'll encode in MPEG1. So, it needs the -mpeg2 command line option that Nic will add. :)

DDogg

30th March 2004, 16:01

Originally posted by Mozart
So, if QuEnc had the other ffmpeg settings enabled, you could use
a single command line with just QuEnc instead of that .bat file.Nic, let me throw out a few thoughts for discussion. First, I completely agree with you about keeping your GUI simple and clean. Trying to shoehorn in every option in a GUI targeted at "easy usage" is poor design, causes confusion, and ends up making nobody happy because it always ends up as a compromise. However, I am wondering if it might be possible to have a QuEnc command line trigger ... maybe something like -ES (extended syntax). QuEnc would then pass everything after that flag onto to ffmpeg in its standard syntax. I don't know if that is doable, but if so, it would keep the gui clean and yet still let more advanced users get the advantage of QuEnc's ability to easily use avs as input (and try any stupid thing they wanted :-)). Make any sense to you, or am I fuzzy thinking yet again? :-)

Also, could you just mention the point about the desire for decimal quants to the ffmpeg guy/s for consideration? I figure you must have a line into them. Of course, no problem if that is not feasible.

onesoul

30th March 2004, 16:15

Nic, you are just making me more curious :devil: :( :)

r6d2

30th March 2004, 16:18

Originally posted by DDogg
Also, could you just mention the point about the desire for decimal quants to the ffmpeg guy/s for consideration? I figure you must have a line into them. Of course, no problem if that is not feasible. AFAIK, quantization values are integer in nature. They reflect the scaling that is done to the signal to make it fit into less bits. The fact that some MPEG-4 encoders support non integer quants has to do with a sort of average calculated on a per GOP basis, but block by block, quantization is always integer.

This procedure could be imitated with an MPEG-2 encoder, I think, but I don't know if it would be simple to do.

bilu

31st March 2004, 18:16

Originally posted by Amenophis
:vratetol=1835: the tolerance of the rate control algorithm. a low value will 'smooth' the bitrate-curve, while a high value will lead to a lot of ups and downs. this value seems to be ok

:vrc_buf_size=1835: buffer size for dvd (=224*8*1.024) for svcd it should be 917.
@Amenophis

Any particular reason for setting vratetol=vrc_buf_size?
I think VBV specifies the maximum bitrate variation, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. So smaller variations should be compatible too. Probably even vratetol=0 is a good value.

I have to play with this parameter, never played with it before :)

Bilu

Amenophis

1st April 2004, 02:06

Originally posted by bilu
@Amenophis

Any particular reason for setting vratetol=vrc_buf_size?
I think VBV specifies the maximum bitrate variation, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. So smaller variations should be compatible too. Probably even vratetol=0 is a good value.

No, there's no reason for taking exactly the same value for vratetol. Nevertheless a value between 1500 and 2000 seems to be ok. When using 5000 or even 8000, Scenarist didn't like my files anymore, but the 1835 seems to work, so i thought 'never touch a running system'.

bilu

1st April 2004, 12:11

FFMPEG
=====
`-b bitrate'
set the video bitrate in kbit/s (default = 200 kb/s)
`-bt tolerance'
set video bitrate tolerance (in kbit/s)
`-maxrate bitrate'
set max video bitrate tolerance (in kbit/s)
`-minrate bitrate'
set min video bitrate tolerance (in kbit/s)
`-bufsize size'
set ratecontrol buffere size (in kbit)

Mencoder
======
vratetol=<value>
approximated filesize tolerance in kBit. 1000?100000 is a sane range. (warning: 1kBit = 1000 Bits) (default: 8000)

vrc_buf_size=<value>
buffer size in kbit (pass 1/2). For MPEG1/2 this also sets the vbv buffer size, use 327 for VCD, 917 for SVCD and 1835 for DVD. NOTE: vratetol should not be too large during the second pass or there might be problems if vrc_(min|max)rate is used
By crossing docs between FFMPEG and Mencoder I got to the conclusion that vratetol(-bt), much more than the vqcomp(-qcomp) or vrc_eq(-rc_eq) settings, is the parameter that will let enforce the average bitrate behaviour.

Lowering vratetol(-bt) will make the filesize much more predictable, but it will still be VBR encoding, not CBR as if vrc_minrate=vrc_maxrate (-minrate=-maxrate).

Would like your feedback on this.

Bilu

Nic

1st April 2004, 13:29

@bilu:

That's very correct (to a certain extent). However, it's deciding the size of bit tolerance. Narrow it too much, and you get deadly accuracy, but almost a CBR stream. Start increasing it even a little, you get VBR (but only slightly) and already have filesize out. I think, I've got it balanced ok though in the next release.

Also there is a problem in the ratecontrol, where the bitrate starts out massive (and then falls down). Although, I've fixed that (kind of ;) ) in ratecontrol.c. Ill release a new version when I have some more time...

-Nic

bilu

1st April 2004, 14:02

Originally posted by Nic
Also there is a problem in the ratecontrol, where the bitrate starts out massive (and then falls down). Although, I've fixed that (kind of ;) ) in ratecontrol.c. Ill release a new version when I have some more time...

-Nic

Will you post your fix at ffmpeg-devel mailing list? ;)

Bilu

micattac

1st April 2004, 15:38

Just wanted to let you know: great work. Just finished doing a custom VBR SVCD and it worked quite good.

I used Version 0.43
Max Bitrate was 3070000 instead of the expected 2400000 bps, but as I read above, that problem will be taken care of
Picture is crips, sound with toolame is good too.

I like it.

Is there any better way to mux than to use bbmpeg?

Cheers
MicAttAck

Nic

1st April 2004, 16:40

@micattac: I get asked this alot...might add some basic muxing like in ReJig to QuEnc (using mplex). You could try mplex...I think you can find an executable for it in the dvdauthor package (and elsewhere). Try dvdauthor.sf.net

@bilu: Isn't really a fix...far more like a hack ;) Trust me, they, wouldnt want it.lol

micattac

2nd April 2004, 16:08

dvdauthor? haven't thought about that, will look into it.

How about a little feature request. Can you make a CLI switch to set the taskpriority (like "-prio idle")

btw. I am getting this dubious error

[quenc_error.JPG] (http://members.yline.com/~micattack/quenc_error.JPG)

When encoding with e.g this commandline:

D:\Video\quenctest>QuEnc.exe -i "e04.avs" -o e04.m2v -b 1092 -2 -aspectratio "4:3" -auto -close

I think on my System I always get it? I am running XP Pro German with all patches and Norton Antivirus.

HarryM

6th April 2004, 08:57

"Pulsation" is back! :mad:
I used Quenc with DVD Rebuilder and observe any noticeable pulsation...

lithoc

10th April 2004, 01:11

Are we getting a newer version of QuEnc? :(

Axlemar

10th April 2004, 01:14

;

BruceL

10th April 2004, 21:46

Are we getting a newer version of QuEnc?

Doesn't sound like much of a motivational request.

Perhaps a message such as "Nice work Nic, appreciate your hard work. Have you found time in your busy schedule to make any advancements? Please let us know as we anxiously await any updates you would be willing to SHARE with us."

PS Thanks for a terrific new tool Nic. I have been following this thread, but have just recently found the time to try.

HarryM

11th April 2004, 09:27

Originally posted by lithoc
Are we getting a newer version of QuEnc? :(

All is O.K. now.
I forget to erase a old Quenc's registry entries (from old version). :p

dragongodz

11th April 2004, 12:30

Nic is busy at the moment. just little things like work, real life and unreal tournamount. :)

he has already said though that he will continue to work on QuEnc and Rejig so patience my freinds. its easter so enjoy and let Nic do the same. :D

djan

11th April 2004, 15:56

Originally posted by dragongodz
Nic is busy at the moment. just little things like work, real life and unreal tournamount. :)

he has already said though that he will continue to work on QuEnc and Rejig so patience my freinds. its easter so enjoy and let Nic do the same. :D And Championship Manager ;)

TheXung

12th April 2004, 04:19

Forgive me for not remembering all that was said in this thread but I was wondering if anyone else has run into the following problem.

A 7 min video clip avs loads perfectly fine in Virtual dub. When QuEnc encodes it, the file seems to be parsed fine as well in the sense that all the frames get encoded and are in the output file. However, it's like the time stamps are incorrect or so because every player thinks it's only a 1:17 min clip. It plays at normal speed, it just continues playing after the status bar reaches 1:17. There's also a problem that only 1:17 minutes of bits at the set bitrate were used for the video.

This was with QuEnc .45 and the movie was Fightclub (NSTC)

To be clearer, all the segments of the whole movie exhibited this problem of being percieved as too short.

DMagic1

14th April 2004, 01:11

Finally got around to trying this. I'm very pleased with the results. I tested this with Fellowship and got results that were better than I excepted.

DMagic1

14th April 2004, 18:06

Nic there seems to be a problem with QuEnc and very small video files. Problem appears when using a avs that creates a m2v thats only about 1 frame. QuEnc creates a m2v thats unplayable and is only 4 bytes in size.

vlada

14th April 2004, 20:33

Hello,
thanks for the great program. It's small simple and produces good quality. But shouldn't there be a switch for interlaced source? It seems to me, that the program treats all movies as progressive. Also the aspect ratio 1:2.35 (or 2.33?) should be added, maybe instead of 2:2.1. And the last question: Are there somewhere the different parametrs explained? Thank You, Jech

Fl0ppy

15th April 2004, 23:15

@Nic: Where i can found the sources of this program? I want to add a new version of libavcodec (ffmpeg)

G00d work

wmansir

17th April 2004, 06:49

I haven't used QuEnc, but I plan to try it out soon. My post is concerning the DVD-Rebuilder Settings guide. As you may know jdobbs added the following options for QuEnc at a user's request. I added the following to the Settings guide based on some quick searches on the subjects:

QuEnc Options
Trellis Quantization
A encoder option that improves quality, but nearly doubles encoding time.
KVCD "Notch" Matrix
The KVD "Notch" Matrix is optimized for space/quality, and to reduce artifacts on low lit/dark scenes. Some image detail is effected though, so it is only recommended if you are using a low video bitrate. Check here (http://www.kvcd.org/portal/articles.php?lng=en&pg=20&prt=1) for the specifications.

If that is in any way incorrect, or you have some more details to add, please let me know. I would specifically be interested in how much of an improvement Trellis quant makes, and how much it slows encoding. (I said doubles encoding based on jdobbs' comments, is that accurate?)

Thanks.

JDay

17th April 2004, 09:52

On my (embarassinly slow) machine, Trellis Quant reduces the encoding speed from abot 14 fps to 9. Quality looks slightly better to my eye, but I haven't thoroughly compared the results.

DMagic1

17th April 2004, 18:01

I didnt see any improvements with Trellis. It took my encode from 330mins to 530mins. The main problem I still see is in the dark areas. Lots of blocks. I'm going to try the KVCD that is suppose to help dark areas. I wondering how much detail lose were're talking?

Amnon82

19th April 2004, 11:55

Is there a way uncheck all settings in QuEnc for batchencoding?
In my batch I set for each encode the settings.

is there a swich for VBR and HQ?

DMagic1

19th April 2004, 15:55

Just wondering what happens when Trellis and KVCD are checked?

Wimpy

19th April 2004, 23:11

Hi Nic,

I am feeling much love for QuEnc and have been using it for encoding my scuba diving shoots for a home made DVD, with great results considering the footage was shot underwater :-) I have also tested it in conjunction with DVD-Rebuilder and have also been very impressed with the output.

I am not trying to be a git and nor do I expect anything, but... I was just curious if you have a status update for us on the new version of QuEnc? The only 'issue' I am having is undersized encodes making it difficult to accurately fill my DVD with quality aquatic loviness :-)

Anyway, thanks for a funky encoder and I look forward to what the future may hold!

dapipa

21st April 2004, 10:27

Originally posted by DMagic1
Just wondering what happens when Trellis and KVCD are checked?

now that's what i want to know too...

Nic

21st April 2004, 12:32

I can't be sure exactly...It will work, i.e. dct_quantize_trellis will use the KVCD matrix, but if it will produce a good result or not I don't know. But I would have thought so.
Trellis definitely improves the encoding, but maybe it isn't worth using due to the slow down....

-Nic

dragongodz

22nd April 2004, 13:41

Nic - since you have made trellis selectable whether to use or not people can try it for themselves and decide. :)

jeffoz1

23rd April 2004, 03:07

I really like the speed of QuEnc and its simplicity. I've had some probs muxing the m2v with an AC3 in DVDLab but I think it is more to do with the AC3. The thing I noticed however was that DVDLab's bitrate viewer showed the m2V occasionally peaking at 13,000kb/s. I had the bitrate set at 3000 kb/s in QuEnc. Should this be happening?

Nic

23rd April 2004, 10:08

Does it only peak at that start of the M2V? If so that's a bug, which can be fixed in the next version. It shouldn't cause much of an issue, but it is a bug in libavcodec where the bitrate starts off very high before settling.

-Nic

jeffoz1

23rd April 2004, 11:38

This may have been a false alarm Nic. The bitrate viewer I applied was to the file after pulldown which bumps up the bitrate considerably. However, the .mv2 direct from Quenc (fps=23.976) spiked at the very end to only 9,900kb/s. Interestingly, since it is the pulldown file that gets authored, should the DVD standard apply to this file? If so 13Mb/s will exceed it? Sorry for my ignorance.

jeffoz1

24th April 2004, 04:53

Both DVDLab and VOBEdit had a problem with muxing the pulldown m2v file and stopped compiling towards the end. When I trimmed the last few seconds which had the 13Mb/s spike, it compiled no problem. So it is thing to watch for progressive NTSC. Let me know if I am missing something.

Nic

25th April 2004, 14:35

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

An update at last ;)

Changes:

Now has "extreme" options, mainly for my own testing, but should provide quality over speed

New Command line options for turning options off as well as on ;)
( view with QuEnc /? )

Now "should" have interlaced encoding for encoding interlaced material.

Now "should" have better bitrate control...hopefully it won't have huge undersize/oversize problems.

Hasn't had full testing yet, but should be an improvement. Please let me know of anything I've missed.

Cheers,
-Nic

Paced

25th April 2004, 14:44

Originally posted by Nic
http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

An update at last ;)

Changes:

Now has "extreme" options, mainly for my own testing, but should provide quality over speed

New Command line options for turning options off as well as on ;)
( view with QuEnc /? )

Now "should" have interlaced encoding for encoding interlaced material.

Now "should" have better bitrate control...hopefully it won't have huge undersize/oversize problems.

Hasn't had full testing yet, but should be an improvement. Please let me know of anything I've missed.

Cheers,
-Nic

Thanks Nic; just ran a few tests, and it is 110% more accurate (at hitting the correct file size) than 0.45 was - at least for me anyway. Great job as always :D

//Edit

After more tests, it appears that QuEnc has much better accuracy when "Extreme & Slow Settings" is ticked. When I have it off, QuEnc seems to be oversizing the output (not by much, for example, the bitrate I set was 3250, the output turned out to be 3350).

//Edit 2

Actually, I take that back, for some strange reason it's dead on accurate now - after I rebooted my computer.

JDay

25th April 2004, 15:22

Just ran a test on some interlaced material, and it turned out great. Thanks Nic! However, I still ran into problems when trying to encode a single-frame avs. It creates a 4k file that (needless to say) cannot be played back. That may or may not be an improvement over 0.45 which made 0k files ;).

Nic

25th April 2004, 15:36

@JDay: Set B-Frames to 0. Then it will work. Although quality of such a bit of video will be low, (as libavcodec's ratecontrol needs time to settle and normally ruins the first frame a little :( )

JDay

25th April 2004, 16:35

I tried encoding several very short clips with and without b-frames. With 2 b-frames enabled, and they all came up a few frames short: (avsframes->encodedframes) 1->X, 2->X, 3->1, 50->47, 100->97, 1000->997, 10000->9999. These all encoded with the correct number of frames when b-frames were set to 0.

jdobbs

25th April 2004, 16:44

Originally posted by JDay
I tried encoding several very short clips with and without b-frames. With 2 b-frames enabled, and they all came up a few frames short: (avsframes->encodedframes) 1->X, 2->X, 3->1, 50->47, 100->97, 1000->997, 10000->9999. These all encoded with the correct number of frames when b-frames were set to 0. So where is the line? At what point (in numbers of frames) should b-frames be set to 0?

dragongodz

25th April 2004, 17:14

JDay - can you give more information about your source ? is it interlaced ? if yes then are you deinterlacing and how exactly ? what did you use to determine the amount of frames ? that kind of thing.

Nic

25th April 2004, 17:21

Well spotted JDay :)

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

Fixed: Not encoding the correct number of frames when using B-Frames.

-Nic

ps
Bug: "Interlaced Encoding" May not work with MPEG-1. Works fine with MPEG-2 so far in testing...

JDay

25th April 2004, 17:46

Wow, that was fast. Works perfectly now, including single frame clips! Thanks!

Edit: Another thing: not a big deal since I'd never turn these off, but -(no)vbr and -(no)hq don't seem to be available via command line (or if they are, they aren't referenced in the "/?" screen and don't go by that syntax).

LigH

25th April 2004, 22:22

In my opinion, interlaced encoding was not written into the MPEG-1 specs, field based encoding is not supported before MPEG-2. Or was I wrong here?!

APF_Gandalf

25th April 2004, 22:29

It seems that treillis is giving me "inverted blocks" since 0.46.

settings:
video 640~432 (always the same anime episode from NTSC Z2 DVD)
mpeg2
bitrate: 1200 ->> and I'm getting ~210 MB for a 25 minutes episode.
VBR
HQ
Treillis
2 pass
KVCD Notcch matrix
Gop size 12
2 max B-frames
16/9 aspect ratio
"Extreme & slow settings" on and off
-already tested with and without it since I was testing with it the first time these blocks appeared.

I'm trying without treillis and with "Extreme & slow settings" right now. I'll update un a few minutes since it encodes at about 40 fps.

/Edit
the inverted blocks are there even without treillis and with "Extreme & slow settings".
without the 2 of them, it's ok.
/end of edit

/edit2
ok, I think I found the culprit: when desactivating the KVCD matrix, I can use treillis and/or "Extreme & slow settings" without any problem in Quenc 0.47.
/end of edit2

I'm also getting the same problem as TheXung:
Originally posted by TheXung
Forgive me for not remembering all that was said in this thread but I was wondering if anyone else has run into the following problem.
It plays at normal speed, it just continues playing after the status bar reaches 1:17.

I haven't tried to remux video yet, maybe it'll solve the problem.

jorel

26th April 2004, 02:01

@ nic
first, thanks for the new version, great work ! :)

audioslave did some tests comparing quality from Mencode-me 0.21, QuEnc 0.47 and TMPGEnc 2.521.

the pictures:
http://hea.port5.com/Comparisons/Comparisons.htm

and audioslave posted:
Quality wise, QuEnc has the best looking sample - except for the color screw-up - with less artefacts (gibbs) than the other two samples.

nic, we all know that your target is to encrease the QuENC quality more and more, that tests can help a little.
if you want to see all details, please read the first post here:
http://kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=75525#75525

regards!
:)

dragongodz

26th April 2004, 06:34

the blue tint problem is easily fixed.

when using an avi source dont use AviSource() with avisynth but DirectShowSource(). you should now find the colours are normal.

LigH - yes mpeg1 was originally designed for just progressive encoding but i think you will find most encoders can output interlaced mpeg1 nowdays. whether you use it or not depends on your intended purpose and playback format/device.

jorel

26th April 2004, 07:40

Originally posted by dragongodz
the blue tint problem is easily fixed.

when using an avi source dont use AviSource() with avisynth but DirectShowSource(). you should now find the colours are normal.

thanks for that dragongodz.

i don't encode avis,divx/xvid, only encode from dvds sources (cartoons and musicals) then i don't need to use DirectShowSource(), right?
i did 2 cartoons and the colors (everything) is ok!
do you have some recomendations for mpeg2source("D:\cartoons\??.D2V")
using .avs script in QuENC to encrease the quality?

all hints are welcome,thanks in advance!

JDay

26th April 2004, 08:30

I encoded R1 Barton Fink using QuEnc (and DVD-RB) and was quite impressed. Granted, this isn't the most difficult movie to encode (low motion, largely monochrome), but it turned out quite well. The differences I noticed, was that the the QuEnc output was slighty lighter than the original and that the borders between different shades was more abrupt, since the original used dithering in these areas (this can be seen on the ceiling in the second picture). So, here are some comparisons of the original avs to the QuEnc output.

First frame: Original (http://apotheosis.tv/files/avs1.png)|QuEnc (http://apotheosis.tv/files/quenc1.png)
Second frame: Original (http://apotheosis.tv/files/avs2.png)|QuEnc (http://apotheosis.tv/files/quenc2.png)

Nic

26th April 2004, 09:46

@LigH: You are right. Forgot about that! No wonder interlaced encoding doesn't work with MPEG-1 ;)

@JDay: They reported a slight color problem in kvcd.net with mencoder and QuEnc. Must be a libavcodec, ill try and see if there is a work around.

@Jorel: Thanks for the feedback :)

@APF_Gandalf: Extreme settings automatically turn on Trellis even if you have selected it off. So basically, Trellis and KVCD aren't compatible in libavcodec at present (it seems, although I didnt see the problem when testing). Ill see what I can do.
EDIT: I can't replicate this problem. The files I create with those settings don't display these blocks... ?

I'm also working on adding higher than 8 bit DC precision to libavcodec, but it's not very straightforward...

-Nic

audioslave

26th April 2004, 11:47

To begin with I just wanna say hi to you all. This is my first post on this forums :) ! And I wanna thank Nic for this incredible GUI/encoder. Very easy to use and with great quality encodes!

@dragongodz
when using an avi source dont use AviSource() with avisynth but DirectShowSource(). you should now find the colours are normal.
I always use *.avs (AviSynth scripts) files for my encodings so I never use AviSource(). In my test I used Mpeg2Source()... ;)

audioslave

26th April 2004, 12:36

@All
Comparison page updated:
http://hea.port5.com/Comparisons/Comparisons.htm
Added info on what settings I used for each encoder + the script I used.

dragongodz

26th April 2004, 13:25

audioslave - AviSource() is for avisynth, the load avi equivilent of Mpeg2Source(). :)
i had a quick look at your script, hmm, i would try cutting it back and adding 1 thing at a time to see where the colour change happens, which function.
before even that though try loading you .avs in MediaPlayerClassic and see if it has the same colour problem. if yes then it is definatly the script or 1 of the plugins thats the problem.

JDay - how did you do the frame comparisons ? if you search around here you will find this has happened before and sometimes it is not real. that is its is a displayed on pc is different because of hardware or drivers or overlay etc problem. thats not to say it is not real but that is why i ask how you compared, so i can try to emulate it.

Jorel - you may want to try adding/testing some filters. as an example for cartoons something like msmooth followed by msharpen. why both ? well msmooth to clean up stray blocks and rubbish and msharpen to sharpen the edges up a touch. they are quite slow and there are other similar filters of which you can find more information in the avisynth section.

Nic - is anything straightforward with libavcodec ? :D

audioslave

26th April 2004, 17:28

@dragongodz
i had a quick look at your script, hmm, i would try cutting it back and adding 1 thing at a time to see where the colour change happens, which function.
Yes, that would be one way of finding the source of this "problem". But on the other hand, I used the exact same script with TMPGEnc and as you can see on the screenshots the TMPGEnc sample doesn't have that problem...:confused:

dapipa

26th April 2004, 18:27

NIC,YOU'RE GODLY GOD,or something...
:D

i'm very pleased with your encoder,although v0.45,which i tested,was not so good at dark/red(especially DARK RED)parts of my source,but i hope v0.47'll fix it and i just can't wait to get home & try it out!

jepkre

26th April 2004, 19:04

Nic,

Since you're looking for suggestions on how to improve QuEnc here's my input, or perhaps not if QuEnc already does what I suggest. It seems to me that certain filters/strength and settings within libavcodec either need to be changed or aren't needed when encoding at different bitrates. For example on my encodes less than 1000kbps I've noticed that Trellis reduces picture quality by adding blocks. So maybe you could have internal settings based on bitrate(i.e., 500-800kbps uses set1 filters/strength & settings, 801-1275kbps set2 etc...). I believe this approach would improve overall quality & speed and continue to keep the gui simple(heck, even trellis & hq could be moved to advanced).

Other than that great work! For us avisynth addicts unwilling to handover "all" control it is a godsend. If at some point you feel that you are no longer able to continue development and are unwilling to release the source please find someone capable and motivated to continue with this great little encoder!!!

Thanks :)

JDay

26th April 2004, 19:18

The lightness in those previous screenshots may have been due to the manner that I took them. The "original" was just the avs snapshoted in vdub. for quenc, I just put the m2v into vdub. I tried the same clip with cce (4 pass, 6000 kbps) and experienced the same lightness and only moderately better quality (even though cce used twice the passes and 2000 or so more bitrate).
Here's another comparison (note: I was unable to grab exaclty the same frame in cce, pretty close, though):

AVS (http://apotheosis.tv/files/avs2.png)|QuEnc (http://apotheosis.tv/files/quenc2.png)|CCE (http://apotheosis.tv/files/CCE2.png)

Another issue, however: It says "Error: Could not open Video Codec" when you try to encode a one-frame clip at a bitrate less than 1249. You get this error on 2-frame clips at bitrates less than 947. I don't have time to do any more testing now, but this pattern may continue.

Prodater64

26th April 2004, 21:03

Hi: How can quenc load avs scripts? Source code are released?

Nic

26th April 2004, 21:20

@JDay: Well spotted again JDay. I think they're might be a bug in there...ill fix that. (@everyone: however, if you dont recieve that error, then everything is ok)

@jepkre: Thats not a bad idea. But im not sure i'll have a think. It's very common for people to throw lots of parameters at libavcodec/mencoder/ffmpeg without them really knowing what they do. I only add a parameter if it can definitely be beneficial. (e.g. I've even seen people swear by using mbd=0 ?! Which can do almost nothing but hurt the quality (although it is quicker ;) ). Although it's an extreme case, it's not uncommon)

@Prodater64:
How?
Through the medium of dance.... ;)

Release the sources?
Some forums and their users...well, one in particular...are run by people that think the GPL is b*llcr*p. That doesn't make me feel like releasing the source code because people might just rip it off, and seeing that libavcodec is LGPL, I don't have to release the source.
Of course, I have given the sourcecode to other people, dragongodz for example has it, but he knows not to give it out. And I know any changes he makes will be passed back to me, etc. So, basically anyone I can trust can get it.

-Nic

DDogg

26th April 2004, 21:52

OT:

Hmm, I fear the dishonorable actions by that unnamed forum may set off many of these types of reactions from folks like you and that we may all feel the weight of the lost trust you alluded to. The public upholding of GPL was what protected that trust. Anybody that attempts to suborn it is the real "b*llcr*p".

jdobbs

26th April 2004, 21:54

Through the medium of dance....
ROTFLMAO:D

bullfrog

27th April 2004, 00:12

Can someone write a short and easy guide for QuEnc?

Values and options recommended for Bitrate, GOP, KVCD matrix, HQ, Max b-frames, extreme and slow settings, ... And, if it is possible, a brief explanation.:-)

Thanks.

Amenophis

27th April 2004, 00:47

Originally posted by Nic
I've even seen people swear by using mbd=0 ?! Which can do almost nothing but hurt the quality (although it is quicker ;) ).

If you've gotten a worse quality with mbd=0, then you maybe haven't set any alternative comparison function, which would end up with no useful comparison function at all. imho this is called "mb_cmp" in the libav source, but as far as i know with that you can only get faster (but not noticeably better) then with mbd=2.

P.S.: With using all quality options the quality is realy good, great work! Unfortunately, there are still bitrates above 10.000 kbit/s occuring when using a high average bitrate (p.e.5000 kbit/s). Except of this, everything seems to work fine.

/edit:

@APF_Gandalf: as far as i know, one reason for these inverted macroblocks are the use of min-quant=1 AND a custom matrix.

insertdisk

27th April 2004, 02:30

Nic,
Thanks so much for the interlaced option - I am putting together a DVD with DV footage encoded at different bitrates and am gonna compare them to my usual encoder of choice (All the same clip). I get the bitrate spike too, (18224 at 8500 setting) but it happens only at the end of my footage. The end of the footage goes to static.
Quenc is looking really good. Thanks again.

Affar

27th April 2004, 06:51

@Bullfrog
You have here a simple guide for this programa ;)
http://www.doom9.hu/mpg/quenc.htm

@Nic
You can put some option to limit process priority? :)

Seeya an great work

dragongodz

27th April 2004, 07:31

audioslave - any chance you could try it with some other encoder aswell ? CCE and MainConcept have trial/demo versions. it would be interesting to see if the colour with them is the same as Tmpgenc aswell. who knows they could all look different. :)

So, basically anyone I can trust can get it.
now i am blushing. :o

Thats not a bad idea. But im not sure i'll have a think.
already been thinking about it and there are a couple i already want to test. its just a matter of when. but i will talk to you about them later anyway.

Nic

27th April 2004, 09:32

@Amenophis: I hope you don't feel my remarks on mbd=0 weren't aimed at you...Your settings do make some sense (I've seen other people that use mbd=0 with all manner of weird settings)....but mbd=0, although fast, should be avoided...if possible.

"as far as i know, one reason for these inverted macroblocks are the use of min-quant=1 AND a custom matrix...."

Do you have any more info on that? If that's the case ill turn off min-quant=1 when using custom matrices...

@Affar: "You can put some option to limit process priority?"
I knew there was something I'd forgotten...I'll add that in for the next version.

@bullfrog: I might contact Doom9 about me adding a little more to the guide (he wrote it). Just to quickly explain the settings. They aren't complicated...So if you need any help understanding any of them just ask.

Cheers,
-Nic

Mug Funky

27th April 2004, 11:43

(slightly OT)

So, basically anyone I can trust can get it.

that seems like a good arrangement for now, but i'd hope an LGPL or GPL might be considered in the future, simply out of principle.

as for people ripping sources... well as the fiasco with the unnamed forum shows, we'll look after you. i have faith in mob rule at least on this forum (though it definitely can get ugly).

i'd hate to see open software being undermined because of the inevitability that the world contains, and will always contain a***holes.

(back on topic)

by the way, the new rate control was just what i needed! thanks! *big kiss*

Mozart

27th April 2004, 13:21

talking about that unnamed forum and their unnamed matrix used in quenc: since it (the matrix) does nothing but high frequencies filtering of non-intracoded blocks(this means that it erases details from your source in order to increase the compressibility of b-frames mainly), and is a highly valued product of an "organisation", which may in the future sue you, Nic, in order to pay the royalties of their "product", I think it would be better to avoid such problems removing that hardcoded matrix from your encoder. You could maybe include a customizable matrix form instead of.

Amenophis

27th April 2004, 13:26

@Nic: At least when using a custom matrix and min-quant=1 in mencoder, i get something like this: http://mitglied.lycos.de/enc0404/inv_mb.jpg (all of them appear at borders, only about 1 of 200 Frames is affected).

Encoding the same clip with QuEnc, i didn't get these errors using the settings APF_Gandalf mentioned, everything was fine. Maybe there is an other reason for these errors (@APF_Gandalf: did you get the same errors like in the jpg?)

btw, these errors i got aren't affected by the trellis setting, so there might be indeed a different reason.

Nocturno

27th April 2004, 15:02

i'm not quite sure the bitrate control is totally fixed,

i did another test with a 200 frame clip. xvid/23.9 fps.

my script:

LoadPlugin("D:\avi2dvd\filters\mpeg2dec3.dll")
v1 = avisource("D:\test\test.avi",False)
v2 = Blankclip()
AudioDub(v1,v2)
LanczosResize(720,424,0.0,0.6)
AddBorders(0,28,0,28)
trim(0,2000)
ConvertToYV12()
#converttoyuy2() used for the CCE conversion.

all encodes at 7909 bitrate
Normal quenc 2pass came out :

59,693,679 bytes /2pass,vbr,high qual,advanced settings default.

2pass using extreme and slow settings, rest unchanged:

70,954,232 bytes

cbr high quality, extreme and slow off:

59,635,162 Bytes

CCE Encode, CBR same bitrate :

82,509,824 Bytes

that's better than .45 version, but not quite spot on yet.

thanx Nic for your hard work!

Nocturno

27th April 2004, 15:03

sorry it's a 2000 frame clip.. typo

dragongodz

27th April 2004, 15:09

no the rate control is still not 100% yet. it is getting better though. :)

DDogg

27th April 2004, 16:33

Originally posted my Mozart
...I think it would be better to avoid such problems removing that hardcoded matrix from your encoder. You could maybe include a customizable matrix form instead of.Mozart, nic, being the hardheaded Englishman that he is <way big grin here nic>, feels allowing custom matrices is non desirable. I would also like to ask again for this option at some time in the future =). I do find them occasionally useful, although agree totally they can be misused.

APF_Gandalf

27th April 2004, 18:47

Originally posted by Amenophis

@APF_Gandalf: as far as i know, one reason for these inverted macroblocks are the use of min-quant=1 AND a custom matrix. [/B]

thanks for the info, but it seems to work fine now, I just rebooted and I can't see any inverted block in my new encodes now. Maybe windows 2k3 was in a bad mood or my CPUs were overheating.
so it seems that treillis and custom matrices are safe to use together.
And the quality is really good, even at low bitrates.
It only needs support for smp systems to be perfect ;p

audioslave

27th April 2004, 19:32

APF_Gandalf wrote:
thanks for the info, but it seems to work fine now, I just rebooted and I can't see any inverted block in my new encodes now. Maybe windows 2k3 was in a bad mood or my CPUs were overheating.
Well, first of all, I'm glad the problem no longer exists for you, but I got inverted block on my encoding of Gothika last night :( . Don't know what's causing this...? I rebooted just before I started the encode.

I must congratulate Nic to an outstanding encoder :) . Except for the inverted block the encode is one of the best (if not )the best ;) ) I've ever done - and seen!
If only this inverted block issue will be solved there's not a question about what encoder I'm gonna use from now on :D !

BTW I did a 2 pass encode of Gothika - target was a 1 CD encode - I took the average bitrate value given by CalcuMatic (thank's Kwag ;) ), and my final muxed movie size: 794 MB :eek: :D . Bye, bye prediction!

Once again, thank you very much Nic ;) .

dragongodz

28th April 2004, 07:14

audioslave - yes real low bitrate encoding is a bit FUBAR at the moment. i have already messaged Nic about some observations.

bullfrog

28th April 2004, 09:17

Originally posted by Nic
@bullfrog: I might contact Doom9 about me adding a little more to the guide (he wrote it). Just to quickly explain the settings. They aren't complicated...So if you need any help understanding any of them just ask.

Cheers,
-Nic [/B]

For PAL KVCD and KSVCD, What are the correct settings?

- Checked notch matrix KVCD? What means "Notch"?
- GOP = 25?
- Max B-Frames: 2?
- Checked Force Closed GOP?
- Bitrate is average bitrate (with Calcumatic)?
- Use Trellin Quant?
- AVySynth script can be any script or a simple script with Mpegsource, mepg2dec3 and Resize method?

Thanks for all.

Abond

28th April 2004, 09:26

I have some problems with GOP structure. I have 2 max B frames and expected to have IBBPBBPBBPBB... (15 GOP). But in two encodes I made at the begining the GOP is in general IBPBPBPB... and sometimes IPBPBPB... At the middle is the same, but at the end of the file I have even IPPPPPP... or IPPPPBPBPB... GOP. I don't know if it can be fixed.
Thanks!
Edit: Forgot about settings:
MPEG2, VBR (1800), High Quality, 15 GOP size, 2 Max B-Frames, KVCD Notch,4:3.

LigH

28th April 2004, 11:01

In electronic circuits, a "notch filter" is a very sharp/narrow filter which is able to eliminate a very narrow band of frequencies, or a whole range of frequencies very sharply.

I don't know the KVCD technology in detail, but they use custom quantization matrices, and a notch matrix would most probably eliminate several frequency coefficienty totally by using very high coefficient quantizers (like 255) directly besides rather normal values (up to ~64).
__

Sorry, I was wrong:

1st place in the Google search resuts for "KVCD notch matrix":

http://www.kvcd.org/portal/mobile/articles.php?lng=en&pg=20

So why not searching before guessing... :rolleyes:

Doom9

28th April 2004, 11:32

@bullfrog: xVCD is evil if the x ain't an S.. same goes for xDVD if the x isn't a blank space. I'd strongly adwise you not to mess with the specs but to stick to them. Everything might just work fine, until you try to play your disc on a somewhat older or higher end device, and then you have no clue what is wrong because it worked on the 5 Taiwanese el-cheapo players you have at some, so it can't be the way you made the disc, can it?

And all those settings you aske for are explained for regular DVD encoding.. just read my guide.

Amenophis

28th April 2004, 12:30

Originally posted by Abond
I have some problems with GOP structure. I have 2 max B frames and expected to have IBBPBBPBBPBB... (15 GOP). But in two encodes I made at the begining the GOP is in general IBPBPBPB... and sometimes IPBPBPB... At the middle is the same, but at the end of the file I have even IPPPPPP... or IPPPPBPBPB... GOP. I don't know if it can be fixed.
Thanks!

It's not a bug, it's a feature ;) When using the extreme and slow settings, the encoder will try to choose a gop pattern, which will result in the best quality using the given bitrate. so your encode is better then with the pattern you wanted the encoder to use. the values 'max B Frames' and 'GOP-Lenght' are in this case the maximum values which the encoder may use. the only bug in this feature seems to be, that it will never use 2 B-Frames.

Abond

28th April 2004, 12:40

Ah, now is clear. But I didn't use "Extreme and Slow"...

dragongodz

28th April 2004, 12:42

Amenophis - actually they can happen with 1 pass, CBR, trellis off etc aswell. so not exactly a feature.

darkluna

29th April 2004, 04:39

Nic: First, thanks for your great program!

I have a ? in regards to using QuEnc for creating SVCDs: I'm using 0.47, which appears to have much better bitrate control; however, I have a situation where it appears that specific scenes appear to encode over the SVCD bit-rate limit, which causes stuttering during playback. I'm not sure what the MPEG stamp is, but I suspect that may be where the problem lies. Here's an example of what Pulldown shows for a particular encode:
-------------------------------
>pulldown csi.miami.2x14_quenc.m2v csi.miami.2x14_quenc.pulldown.m2v
- Enabling 2:3 pulldown
Total Frames = 62968
Total GOPS = 6030
Average bitrate = 2298688 bits/sec - (MPEG stamped @ 6900000 bits/sec)
-------------------------------
The bitrate average that I'm using is OK (2250), but the "stamp" is at 6900 bits/sec, which would appear to exceed SVCD standards. Here are the settings I'm using:

\quenc.exe -i \csim.2x14\csim.2x14_quenc.avs -o \csim.2x14\mpeg\csim.2x14_quenc.m2v -b 2250 -2 -mpeg2 -trell -aspectratio 4:3 -auto -close

Any suggestions?

Paced

29th April 2004, 05:53

Originally posted by darkluna
Nic: First, thanks for your great program!

I have a ? in regards to using QuEnc for creating SVCDs: I'm using 0.47, which appears to have much better bitrate control; however, I have a situation where it appears that specific scenes appear to encode over the SVCD bit-rate limit, which causes stuttering during playback. I'm not sure what the MPEG stamp is, but I suspect that may be where the problem lies. Here's an example of what Pulldown shows for a particular encode:
-------------------------------
>pulldown csi.miami.2x14_quenc.m2v csi.miami.2x14_quenc.pulldown.m2v
- Enabling 2:3 pulldown
Total Frames = 62968
Total GOPS = 6030
Average bitrate = 2298688 bits/sec - (MPEG stamped @ 6900000 bits/sec)
-------------------------------
The bitrate average that I'm using is OK (2250), but the "stamp" is at 6900 bits/sec, which would appear to exceed SVCD standards. Here are the settings I'm using:

\quenc.exe -i \csim.2x14\csim.2x14_quenc.avs -o \csim.2x14\mpeg\csim.2x14_quenc.m2v -b 2250 -2 -mpeg2 -trell -aspectratio 4:3 -auto -close

Any suggestions?

The problem is, you can't specify a maximum bitrate in QuEnc, that's why you'll always get an xSVCD output (unless you turn off VBR). I'm pretty sure QuEnc was only created for DVDs in mind, mainly due to the latest hype with jdobbs' DVD Rebuilder.

Nic

29th April 2004, 09:24

No, it has all MPEG-1/2 Encoding in mind. Not just DVD.

Here's the problem. libavcodec's bitrate control just doesn't work very well. You can do what a lot of mencoder/ffmpeg gui's do and set the bitrate tolerance so low that very little actual VBR happens and your mainly getting a pretty CBR stream. But that isn't good for quality...

So it ends up being a matter of tweaking. Stupidly in 0.47 CBR is broken and the max_bitrate isn't capped at any particular rate. I'll try to solve this soon.

Also a secondary problem is the bitrate can get very high at the start and/or the end of the video. This is also a bug in the rate control of libavcodec...

So that's the problem...

-Nic

ps
So close to having DC precision sorted as well...just one little bug left, but I don't know what causes it... :(

jorel

29th April 2004, 12:44

Nic,
is possible one little guide for command lines to QuENC and a general "how to"? thanks.

Teegedeck

29th April 2004, 12:47

Hi Nic,

I messed a bit with QuEnc yesterday and the day before and just want to tell you that I'm impressed. Very, very nice indeed!

The result of encoding in "extreme & slow" mode was extraordinarily detail-rich and sharp to my eyes. Unfortunately, I've tried it on a very noisy source where it amplified that effect. I'm looking forward to experimenting with it on more HQ sources from now on. Thank you, and keep it up!

samuraijack

29th April 2004, 13:16

I am having trouble with "Could not Open Video Codec" errors in Quenc.
Kill Bill Vol 1, R1
Ripped with DVDDecryptor ( latest version)All files
DVD Rebuilder .45
Batch encode
Quenc .47
No Trellis
2 pass, HQ, Use VBR

Seems to encounter this error when is is in the process mode, but it doesnt occur at the same place each time.

Any suggestions or anything I can do to help the process along?

Thanks for any help.
NIC, Ive heard great things about this encoder, I can t wait to see the results. Keep up the good work and thanks!

winny

29th April 2004, 14:16

I'm also experiencing this same error with quenc 0.47 and dvd-rebuilder 0.45, source disk is The Godfather part 3 mounted with Daemon Tools.

Quenc options:- Trellis quant, 2 Pass, Use VBR, High Quality, Extreme & Slow

Does anyone have any suggestions for troubleshooting so I can provide more information to the thread?

Thanks.

Affar

29th April 2004, 14:28

I've had the same problem as u when trying to compress a video with disadjusted framerate (25.002). To solve it u should add this in the avisynth script:

converttoyuy2()
convertfps(25)# Or the correct framerate
converttoyv12()

Seeya

JDay

29th April 2004, 15:54

I've gotten the "Could not open Video Codec" on short clips at low bitrates. It seems the shorter a clip is, the higher a bitrate is required to successfully encode. This seems to vary depending on the frame rate. A single-frame 29.97 fps clip needs a bitrate of 1561 to encode. A 23.976 fps clip needs 1249. (same frame, just different fps!)

This problem is common with DVD-RB, as it will often try to encode single-frame clips at very low bitrates (if dynamically assign cell bitrates is on). You can get around this by manually encoding the troublesome clips at the required bitrate, or turning "Dynamical assign..." off (assuming the average rate is greater than the needed one).

winny

29th April 2004, 21:33

Excellent, thanks for the suggestions. Will give them a try and let you know how I get on.

Many thanks.

Nic

29th April 2004, 22:26

Hi,

I don't know what would be causing this Can't open video codec problem. Unless the data from the AVS File was or settings were...strange. Hmmm. Can anyone re-create this problem. And if so can they tell me how to?

I've almost finished a new release (max bitrate (doesn't work 100%, still get a spike at the start but generally better), scene detection on/off, etc)...but i'd like to fix this first.

Thanks.

-Nic

JDay

30th April 2004, 00:09

I've gotten the "Could not load Video Codec" error with different sources (both mpeg2source and directshowsource). You should be able to recreate this with a script like this:

(load whatever video, don't think it matters)
lanczosresize(720,480)
changefps(29.97) #this should have a min rate of 1561.
trim(1,1) #or whatever frame, it hasn't made a difference in my testing
converttoyv12()

I'm at work right now, so I can't do any more testing but that should help recreate it.

Edit: This was commented in the avs but I moved it here because it broke the tables: you can use changefps(23.976) instead and the min rate will be 1249. Or you can just leave it at whatever the source is, but the results may vary (I've only tested on ntsc sources, and therefore, haven't tried other framerates or resolutions yet...).

winny

30th April 2004, 10:39

Hi Nic,

I've since tried another source disk, REM - Perfect Square, and I think JDay is onto something here.

The AVS script you suspected is as follows:-

LoadPlugin("J:\dvdr\decodefix100\MPEG2Dec3dg.dll")
mpeg2source("J:\DVDRB\D2VAVS\V02.D2V")
trim(211692,211716)
ConvertToYV12()
AudioDub(BlankClip())

But the corresponding entry in rebuilder.ecl shows a very low bitrate (i am using the default option for dynamic bitrate allocation):-

vbr_brate_avg=180

This disk has more examples of these single cells with the same entries in the ECL above.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you need further info.

samuraijack

30th April 2004, 13:26

I tried Kill Bill again last night with the dynamically Assign set to Off. It went off without a hitch, although it did take a quite a while. I took a look at the resulting VOBs this morning and they look very crisp. I think I will burn these to a DVD and compare them to the version I managed with CCE. I have to admit, I am VERY impressed at how nice this looks. Nice Job, Nic!

Nic

30th April 2004, 18:26

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

Changes:

Now has DC Precision for MPEG-2
You can turn off/on Scene Detection. Having it off will cause more regular GOP patterns
Can set Max. Bitrate. You still get a bitrate spike either at the start or end, but generally it will be obeyed.

The "Can't open video codec" error hasn't been fixed yet...I need to do more bug testing. But that bug should be rare....I need more info on it.

Cheers,
-Nic

JDay

30th April 2004, 18:47

More info on the "Video Codec" error: It seems to pop up when the bitrate is set very low for a clip. I tried clicking all the settings on and off, and I think I may have found the culprit. I turned off "2 Pass" and do not get the error now. The other settings seem to have no effect, although the framerate of the avs seems to affect the min bitrate that can be used with 2pass on. When I turned off 2pass, it would even encode with bitrate set to 0 (although the output was WAY oversized for 0kbps ;)).

Edit: Also, what exactly is "DC precision"? I googled it but got results on voltage meters or something.

Edit the second: Also, also, I noticed that vbr and hq are still missing from the commandline. Could you add those, pretty please?

Nic

30th April 2004, 19:28

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.exe

Changes:

Hack to stop the "Could not open Video Codec". It now doesn't allow MPEG-2 video to be done with a two pass, when the bitrate is under 200 kbps. Instead it does a one pass. This hack will suffice until a better fix can be made.
Now can set vbr and hq from the commandline options (use QuEnc /? ) for help
Now has process priority control

Cheers,
-Nic

JDay

30th April 2004, 20:16

The 200 kbps cap doesn't seem to be sufficient. Would it be feasable to automaticically re-do a job without 2-pass if the error is encountered?

Nic

30th April 2004, 20:21

@JDay: Damn it...I thought 200 would suffice. Your solution is exactly what I tried. But it doesn't work. After you call libavcodec and get the error, I can't get it to accept the parameters again, without fiddling around...
What cap should I use? (It's only for MPEG-2)

samuraijack

30th April 2004, 20:31

Dont know if it will help, but there is a similar conversation going on in the thread:http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=484530#post484530

Might be a relationship?

JDay

30th April 2004, 21:02

Originally posted by Nic
What cap should I use?
It depends on the framerate... 1600-2000 should be good. Can't test now, though.

Edit: I think 1561 is the cap for 23.976 fps. You normally won't encode with a lower framerate, so that should be good.

darkluna

30th April 2004, 21:26

Nic: Thanks for the new versions to try

Earlier there was a request for a "pause" feature. Is this feasible? Priority class is easily changed in Windows with Task Manager, but a pause button would be great. Sometimes encoding isn't quite done when it's time to record something else :)

DDogg

30th April 2004, 21:54

Now has DC Precision for MPEG-2 Was that as hard to do as it sounds?

Nic

30th April 2004, 22:09

@DDogg: Michael (of ffmpeg) did the real work...I couldn't track down the last bug. He did for me :) (it shouldn't have been hard...it's quite simple really)

@darkluna: Just written the code for it :) In the next version you'll just be able to hit the pause button on the keyboard and it will pause until pause is hit again....

-Nic

winny

1st May 2004, 09:48

New version 0.49 has solved the codec not found errors, thanks for an amazingly quick fix Nic.

CavalloPazzo

1st May 2004, 10:32

I'd like to see 1 pass VBR constant quality...It seems all libavcodec encoders when doing 1 pass quantizer use same quantizer even for i/bframe, that's not good.

Teegedeck

1st May 2004, 15:02

Constant quality equals constant quantizer in all implementations I know of. Having an I-frame boost or P/B-frame spoilage is another thing.

CavalloPazzo

1st May 2004, 17:18

Yes I know costant quality = costant quantizer...
I'd like to have a libavcodec encoder that can make constant quantizer mode encodes with different i/p/b as with other libavcodec based encoders (ffmpeg, mencoder, ffvfw) encoding with constant quantizer disable q-offset and q-multiplier for i/b frames and all frames are encoded with same quantizer.

dragongodz

2nd May 2004, 02:27

Nic - i would think <600 would be a better amount personally. also the quant conditions i messaged you about should help with that i would think.
actually compressing down to that low for things like half D1 is questionable. i mean if the ABR is going to be that low its not going to be anything like reasonable quality. again setting quant rules would be the only way of maintaning at least a half decent video IMHO.

kwag

2nd May 2004, 03:48

May I ask, where can I download the program sources for the new QueEnc version? Or, well how do I get them?
Thanks.

Best regards
kwag

dragongodz

2nd May 2004, 04:46

kwag - short answer, you cant. :D

Nic already commented on page 13 about the source. the relevant bit is
seeing that libavcodec is LGPL, I don't have to release the source.

and from the lgpl
We use this license for certain libraries in order to permit linking those libraries into non-free programs.
non-free meaning closed source and/or commercial programs not money.

kwag

2nd May 2004, 05:16

Originally posted by dragongodz
kwag - short answer, you cant. :D

Nic already commented on page 13 about the source. the relevant bit is

and from the lgpl

non-free meaning closed source and/or commercial programs not money.
Sorry dragongodz, but you don't have a clue.
Nic modified the libavcodec sources, so he MUST release the sources:

4. You may copy and distribute the Library (or a portion or
derivative of it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form
under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you accompany
it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which
must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a
medium customarily used for software interchange.

And

If such an object file uses only numerical parameters, data
structure layouts and accessors, and small macros and small inline
functions (ten lines or less in length), then the use of the object
file is unrestricted, regardless of whether it is legally a derivative
work. (Executables containing this object code plus portions of the
Library will still fall under Section 6.)
Otherwise, if the work is a derivative of the Library, you may
distribute the object code for the work under the terms of Section 6.
Any executables containing that work also fall under Section 6,
whether or not they are linked directly with the Library itself.

6. As an exception to the Sections above, you may also combine or
link a "work that uses the Library" with the Library to produce a
work containing portions of the Library, and distribute that work
under terms of your choice, provided that the terms permit
modification of the work for the customer's own use and reverse
engineering for debugging such modifications.

You must give prominent notice with each copy of the work that the
Library is used in it and that the Library and its use are covered by
this License. You must supply a copy of this License. If the work
during execution displays copyright notices, you must include the
copyright notice for the Library among them, as well as a reference
directing the user to the copy of this License. Also, you must do one
of these things:
a) Accompany the work with the complete corresponding
machine-readable source code for the Library including whatever
changes were used in the work (which must be distributed under
Sections 1 and 2 above); and, if the work is an executable linked
with the Library, with the complete machine-readable "work that
uses the Library", as object code and/or source code, so that the
user can modify the Library and then relink to produce a modified
executable containing the modified Library. (It is understood
that the user who changes the contents of definitions files in the
Library will not necessarily be able to recompile the application
to use the modified definitions.)

b) Use a suitable shared library mechanism for linking with the
Library. A suitable mechanism is one that (1) uses at run time a
copy of the library already present on the user's computer system,
rather than copying library functions into the executable, and (2)
will operate properly with a modified version of the library, if
the user installs one, as long as the modified version is
interface-compatible with the version that the work was made with.

c) Accompany the work with a written offer, valid for at
least three years, to give the same user the materials
specified in Subsection 6a, above, for a charge no more
than the cost of performing this distribution.

d) If distribution of the work is made by offering access to copy
from a designated place, offer equivalent access to copy the above
specified materials from the same place.

e) Verify that the user has already received a copy of these
materials or that you have already sent this user a copy.

-kwag

jdobbs

2nd May 2004, 06:01

You just pointed out why I never use and never will use GPL code... because everybody thinks your labor belongs to them.

kwag

2nd May 2004, 06:42

Originally posted by jdobbs
You just pointed out why I never use and never will use GPL code... because everybody thinks your labor belongs to them.

;)

-kwag

Nic

2nd May 2004, 10:11

kwag, I don't modifiy the libavcodec sources. And if I did, the only things I would have to release are the modifications itself not QuEnc. kwag, no offense, but it is you who don't have a clue.

Your misreading the license, and not understanding the LGPL. Feel free to mail the lead guys from ffmpeg (i.e. Michael Niedermayer for instance) or at gnu.org and they will tell you the same thing.

Lets go thru what you posted and misunderstood:

4. You may copy and distribute the Library (or a portion or
derivative of it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form
under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you accompany
it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which
must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a
medium customarily used for software interchange.

Is only discussing the library not the a product linked to the library. The LGPL is there to make sure the library cannot be modified and become close source. That is what part 4 is for.

Now the next bit that your quoted is too long to post again, but please please please read it again. I can see why your having a hard time, the wording is misleading. But part 6 only relates to:
"As an exception to the Sections above, you may also combine or
link a "work that uses the Library" with the Library to produce a
work containing portions of the Library"
That's for code that actually becomes part of the library, using code from inside the library...which QuEnc doesn't, it just links to it. Hence, section 5.

But please please please read section number 5, which is the clearest:

5. A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the
Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or
linked with it, is called a "work that uses the Library". Such a
work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and
therefore falls outside the scope of this License.

QuEnc is just linked to avcodec.lib. That's it. And hence isn't a part of the library itself and therefore doesn't come under the LGPL.

I'm sure you probably won't just take my word, but please contact the people at ffmpeg or gnu.org and they will tell you the same.
(you can find people at ffmpeg thru www.sf.net/projects/ffmpeg and goto the mailing list section)

Hope that clears that up :)
Please in future, check your facts before pointing the finger, like we did in the muaddib case.

Cheers,
-Nic

ps
QuEnc will be released under GPL one day anyway, once it's finished :)

JDay

2nd May 2004, 11:19

I ran some more tests against CCE using version .49. I compared the output with the original using the subtract() feature in avisynth. Both encoders seemed to handle the natural pictures well (only some grain visible in the subtracted pictures) but CCE did not do well with the credits while QuEnc handled them quite nicely (see below). Maybe this would be good for animated titles?

Original (http://apotheosis.tv/files/original.JPG)|CCE (http://apotheosis.tv/files/cce.png)|QuEnc (http://apotheosis.tv/files/QuEnc.png)|TMPGEnc (http://apotheosis.tv/files/tmpg.png)

Oh, and more nagging about the commandline: Priority and max bitrate settings are missing.

Edit: Added TMPGEnc. Definitely the worst of the bunch (and the slowest to encode). You can see images on the subtracted sequence even with "natural pictures".

Teegedeck

2nd May 2004, 11:51

Could you please keep this thread free of the GPL issue? I'm probably not the only one who'd prefer it that way. Thank you.

Nic

2nd May 2004, 12:27

@Tee: Yup, hopefully my post settled the issue, so that should be the end of it.

@everyone:
http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc_Settings.txt

Here are an explanation of the QuEnc settings...hopefully this will help people that are new to QuEnc.

Cheers,
-Nic

ps
@JDay:
Ill add those commandline params in the next version

jdobbs

2nd May 2004, 14:12

@Nic

I know you get a lot of these types of messages -- but I want to again thank you for your outstanding support on this package and all the other 3000 you are working. QuEnc is getting better and better with each release!

jorel

2nd May 2004, 14:33

Originally posted by jdobbs
@Nic

I know you get a lot of these types of messages -- but I want to again thank you for your outstanding support on this package and all the other 3000 you are working. QuEnc is getting better and better with each release!

i agree, QuENC is getting better and better with each release, thanks for that Nic and for the QuEnc_Settings.txt too. :)
ot: jdobbs,i don't test(but will soon)DVD ReBuilder but i see that your suport is amazing !

Nic

2nd May 2004, 14:36

@jorel: Thanks :)

@jdobbs: Thanks too :) Exactly the same goes to you. I don't know where you find the time to work on such a big project as rebuilder. You must be a lot better at managing your time than me :)

-Nic

audioslave

2nd May 2004, 14:36

@Nic
I agree with the two previous posts ;) . I have a problem with the bitrate though (I know you're working on it). I set the max.bitrate to 2500 but the final movie have peaks of 3376. Other than this I have nothing to "complain" about :D . Great work, man!

Nic

2nd May 2004, 14:50

@audioslave: Are the peaks at that start and end or can they be "everywhere" ?

-Nic

kwag

2nd May 2004, 14:53

Originally posted by Nic

Lets go thru what you posted and misunderstood:

No, lets go throught the part you didn't post, and didn't understand.

However, linking a "work that uses the Library" with the Library
creates an executable that is a derivative of the Library (because it
contains portions of the Library), rather than a "work that uses the
library". The executable is therefore covered by this License.
Section 6 states terms for distribution of such executables.

Regards,
-kwag

audioslave

2nd May 2004, 15:03

@audioslave: Are the peaks at that start and end or can they be "everywhere" ?
The peaks occur at the beginning and the end of the movie. The first peak is at 52 seconds into the movie and the second is actually a bitrate drop/Q peak (!) at 01:32...

Nic

2nd May 2004, 15:20

@kwag: Ok, I'm assuming that english isn't your first language, and as such I can understand the problem you're having...so ill try to take you through the license. Please also contact someone like Neo Neko who knows the license's well.....or at the very least gnu.org or the ffmpeg guys, they will take you thru it.

ok lets break it down :)

A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the
Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or
linked with it, is called a "work that uses the Library". Such a
work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and
therefore falls outside the scope of this License.

Ok, so from this QuEnc.exe is a "work that uses the Library". That bit, we can agree on. QuEnc is in isolation, because it links to the library and nothing else. Now the bit that you quoted is this.

However, linking a "work that uses the Library" with the Library
creates an executable that is a derivative of the Library (because it
contains portions of the Library), rather than a "work that uses the library"

And that's exactly right. If I linked QuEnc.exe with the library to make another application/library, then QuEnc would fall under the LGPL (and it would no longer be isolated). That part is to ensure people don't have libraries were part of the code isn't under LGPL.

Please also note the part that says:
rather than a "work that uses the library"
So which are you saying QuEnc.exe is kwag...is it a "work that uses the library" or not? I think you'll see where you went wrong now. It was an easy mistake as the english could be clearer.

Can you understand that? The bit you quoted is to stop what could otherwise be a loophole to keep parts of a library closed. The start of Section 5 states that "work that uses the Library" "falls outside the scope of this License". And that's why QuEnc and all other apps that use LGPL can be closed. Why do you think the LGPL exists? Otherwise it would just be GPL.

Please please read up kwag. You're just coming across as petty, but I assume it's just a language barrier to the LGPL license. What do you think the LGPL is for? Please contact the gnu.org or any leading guys from a LGPL project (like the LAME guys for instance..look at all the commercial closed-source apps that use LAME, because they can thru LGPL http://lame.sourceforge.net/links.html ).
Another LAME link: http://lame.sourceforge.net/license.txt

I'm sure you must know someone that can explain it better to you, good luck with your research but please don't clog this thread until you've contacted someone else about your misunderstanding.

Thanks :)

-Nic

ps
Also the first paragraph from:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html
(straight from the horses' mouth so to speak)

The GNU Project has two principal licenses to use for libraries. One is the GNU Library GPL; the other is the ordinary GNU GPL. The choice of license makes a big difference: using the Library GPL permits use of the library in proprietary programs; using the ordinary GPL for a library makes it available only for free programs.

dragongodz

2nd May 2004, 17:19

ok so lets just make it clear.

if anyone wants to discuss LGPL please take it to the general section and start a thread there just as there currently is for GPL.

Nic

2nd May 2004, 20:48

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.zip <--- Note .zip not .exe

Now can be paused by pressing the pause key on the keyboard
60000/1001 is now supported as a fps
Now strictly complys to the LGPL

It appears to comply with the LGPL, you have to have it linked dynamically not statically. My mistake, so now it comes with avcodec.dll.

Should be business as usual now. :)

Thanks kwag and everyone else for helping me make it properly LGPL compliant.

Cheers,
-Nic

ps
@JDay: The new parameters didn't make it. 0.51 definitely will have it. :)

HarryM

2nd May 2004, 21:14

@Nic:

Thanks for QuEnc_Settings.txt.

audioslave

2nd May 2004, 22:39

@Nic
Sorry to post again but it seems my question about the peaks got lost during all this GPL talk ;) . Please, read my post above and tell me what you think :) .

SILICON

2nd May 2004, 22:42

One of the most time wasted in MPEG encoder is the search of motion vectors.

In two pass mode, you can save the motion vector in a temporal file. In the second pass, you can do the motion search.

It is a practical idea?

Nic

2nd May 2004, 22:52

@SILICON: Very true...I've been meaning to look into the two pass side of things. It is feasable, but I dont know how complicated yet...

@audioslave: Those peaks at the start and end are due to the rate control being broken in ffmpeg (AFAIK). I'll try and fix it. Hopefully the rate control will be re-written soon.

Cheers,
-Nic

Teegedeck

2nd May 2004, 22:52

I believe motion vectors are not necessarily the same when quantizers change; at least for XviD the re-use of motion vectors has been given up upon.

Edit:
Hasn't it, Nic?

Nic

2nd May 2004, 23:11

@Tee: Yup that's true...but I will look into it anyway, if it's easy to implement then it won't do any harm. But yes, it's not the best idea to re-use the vectors.

djan

3rd May 2004, 00:58

The link doesn't seem to work.

Mug Funky

3rd May 2004, 04:58

just a little point - bitrate spikes at the end of the stream can possibly be a problem with BitrateView (if that's what we're using). i noticed this while loading streams that were still being processed :) the spikes disappeared when i re-loaded and there was a new GOP.

spikes at the front are a bit of a problem. but for my level of usage, a slight glitch on playback of the first second is not a problem at all... SVCD is enough of a sacrifice in quality to get hot and bothered about glitches :)

t_2

3rd May 2004, 06:17

Link seems to be dead here too.

dragongodz

3rd May 2004, 06:49

no its working, just absolutly flooded i would say.

i just downloaded it and it took about 10 minutes to get a succesful connection and download.

SILICON

3rd May 2004, 11:58

Bug in QuEnc 0.50

The bug only happen when set on Use KVCD "Notch" Matrix

You can see the Bug capture

http://www.geocities.com/aeromodelismogratis/175.jpg

Open a new browser and copy this link. Do not click on link (geocities rules)

If you like, I can send you the AVS script and the original M2V. Yopu can recreate the bug.

Nic

3rd May 2004, 12:16

@SILICON: Does that occur even if all other settings are off? (so only kvcd matrix is on). You can send any files (as long as they are not too huge) to nic@nic.dnsalias.com

Cheers,
-Nic

Abond

3rd May 2004, 13:05

The GOP structure bug is still there. Now I am refering to it as a bug, because the current v of mencoder (the same encoding engine) doesn't have it - GOP structure is correct.

Nic

3rd May 2004, 13:17

@Abond: Do you have scene detection on or off? If it's off it should be ok.... ? Ill check again here. Thanks for the report :)

-Nic

ps
Could you also give the settings your using, the program you use to check (im using ReMPEG2), and what you expect to see compared to whats there. Thanks :)

SILICON

3rd May 2004, 13:49

Originally posted by Nic
@SILICON: Does that occur even if all other settings are off? (so only kvcd matrix is on).

The setting are:
MPEG-2 = ON
Bitrate = 1385
Use VBR = ON
High Quelity = ON
Use TRELLIS = ON
2 PASS encoding = ON
Use KVCD MATRIX = ON (I have BUG). If set OFF I have not bug
Extreme Slow setting = ON or OFF (don't care)
GOP size = 15 (I use PAL)
Max B frames = 2
Interlazed encoded = OFF
DC precision = 8
Force closed GOP = OFF
Scene Detection = ON
Auto MAX bitrate = OFF
MAX BITRATE = 8000
4:3 aspect ratio = ON

Originally posted by Nic
You can send any files (as long as they are not too huge) to nic@nic.dnsalias.com

The MPV file have a 7.5 MB. It's huge?

Nic

3rd May 2004, 14:09

@Silicon: Could you try it again for me with Trellis or Extreme turned off and see if the same error is there. I think it's an issue with kvcd and trellis as reported before.

By all means send that file...I should be able to pick it up as long as it's below 10mb

Thanks,
-Nic

SILICON

3rd May 2004, 14:45

I make more test and:

MPEG-2 = Don't care
Bitrate = 1385
Use VBR = Don't care
High Quality = Don't care
Use TRELLIS = ON (If OFF, I haven't bug)
2 PASS encoding = Don't care
Use KVCD MATRIX = ON (I have BUG). If set OFF I have not bug
Extreme Slow setting = ON (I have BUG). If set OFF I have not bug
GOP size = Don't care
Max B frames = Don't care
Interlazed encoded = Don't care
DC precision = Don't care
Force closed GOP = Don't care
Scene Detection = Don't care
Auto MAX bitrate = Don't care
MAX BITRATE = 8000
4:3 aspect ratio = Don't care

In resume:
Only have bug if are KVCD MATRIX = ON and TRELLIS = ON
Or KVCD MATRIX = ON and Extreme Slow setting = ON

The BUG is :
The bug is when the TOP part of frame are bright an the BOTTON part are dark. The BLOCK are inverted (As mirror image). The invert are in TOP-BOTTON, putting the dark at the TOP.
Also when The LEFT part of frame are bright an the RIGHT part. The BLOCK are inverted in RIGHT-LEFT, put the dark at the LEFT.

I think that the bug are in quantimize code.

I will send you the files for you can test the bug.

Amenophis

3rd May 2004, 14:47

Originally posted by Abond
The GOP structure bug is still there. Now I am refering to it as a bug, because the current v of mencoder (the same encoding engine) doesn't have it - GOP structure is correct.

Both GOP-structures (regular GOP and irregular GOP) are correct and both are possible when using mencoder, depending on your settings. So maybe the 'bug' is, that you can't turn it off. (althrough i wouldn't suggest to turn it off)

Abond

3rd May 2004, 15:04

@Amenophis
What not to turn off?
@Nic
I have posted it for 0.47 (at page 14 of this thread) and it is the same with 0.50. SceneDetection was not checked. The settings are the same as posted in my previous message. The sentence in this message "I forgot about settings" shoul be read "I forgot to type the settings in the main message body" - sorry for the unconvenience. Generally, I see that when the scene requires more bitrate (bright, action) the B frames are skipped and I have IPPPPPPP... I am using VDubMod, advancing frame by frame.

Amenophis

3rd May 2004, 15:18

@Abond: in the libav there is an option to use the 'optimal' (or at least a better) GOP-Pattern instead of the standard one. The goal is, to get a better quality without using more bitrate. So p.e. in high motion scenes, a GOP like 'IPPPPPPP' will result in a better bitrate usage than 'IBBPBBP...', so the encoder will calculate a better GOP structure. When using libav in general, you can turn this behaviour off, but in QuEnc you can't.

Abond

3rd May 2004, 15:22

Oh, thanks!
I am afraid that this can rise some compatibility issues, but I simply don't know.

dragongodz

3rd May 2004, 15:28

SILICON - can you do another test but make the max bitrate something like 2500 ? and yes it does look very much like a quantisation error. :)

as i also have already mention irregular GOPs like IPPP are not good or reccomended if your target is vcd/svcd. so being able to turn this on or off should be an option for sure.

Nic

3rd May 2004, 15:36

@Amenophis: Do you know what parameter to turn that behaviour off in mencoder/ffmpeg? Ill then be able to add it to QuEnc

EDIT: Don't worry. It's due to B-Frame strategy. Ill make a switch for QuEnc 0.51 to turn it off or on (it's on by default currently)

Cheers,
-Nic

SILICON

3rd May 2004, 15:57

Originally posted by dragongodz
SILICON - can you do another test but make the max bitrate something like 2500 ? and yes it does look very much like a quantisation error. :)

I put the max bitrate to 2500 and to 7500 and have the bug.
But the encoder don't use this bitrate.

dragongodz

3rd May 2004, 16:17

SILICON - what do you mean by the encoder doesnt use that bitrate ?

Nic

3rd May 2004, 16:20

Dont worry about it dgz. It's a bug that's been reported before with trellis and kvcd. I'll look into it, and if I can replicate it easily ill also post it to the ffmpeg dev mailing list. It doesn't always happen, but does on some scenes. Simple rule for now is don't use kvcd matrix with trellis.

-Nic

dragongodz

3rd May 2004, 16:37

Nic - ye i had seen it mentioned before. looks very much like an over quant. thats why i said to try the lower max bitrate to try and limit that. but no probs.

well i said i was going to have an earlier night and i am. its now 1:36am so i am off to bed. :D

DDogg

3rd May 2004, 16:49

I'm not taking a snipe this time [well maybe a little], but why IS that notch matrix hard coded into your app [remember it is supposedly proprietary :rolleyes:]?

Many people would never use it as there are arguably better alternatives. nic, you know I have picked at you [all in good fun] on this issue, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record and you smacking me, please consider allowing us to use our preferred matrix at some date in the future. Even if just via some text file so as not to cause you much aggravation. A matrix.INI allowing only one matrix would not cause you much grief to implement would it? That way, only experienced people, willing to take the time to do it properly, would use this feature. And they would be familiar with the effects of using improper matrices and not assume something was wrong with your app.

SILICON

3rd May 2004, 18:32

@NIC.
I send you a files for replicate the mirror bug. The size of file is less of 2MB
You can replicate the bitrate bug (report down) with the same file.

@dragongodz
Another bug. If the file to encode are short (The example for NIC have only 300 frames) the encoder ignore the bitrate.
I try with 100 Kbps and 8000 Kbps. The size of encoded file are the same.
I change all options (yes, CBT too), and the filesize change when change the quality options, but ignore the bitrate ever.

Seems that in very first frames the bitrate control are off. Perhaps is a round bug.

jorel

3rd May 2004, 20:32

Originally posted by DDogg
I'm not taking a snipe this time [well maybe a little], but why IS that notch matrix hard coded into your app [remember it is supposedly proprietary :rolleyes:]?

Many people would never use it as there are arguably better alternatives. nic, you know I have picked at you [all in good fun] on this issue, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record and you smacking me, please consider allowing us to use our preferred matrix at some date in the future. Even if just via some text file so as not to cause you much aggravation. A matrix.INI allowing only one matrix would not cause you much grief to implement would it? That way, only experienced people, willing to take the time to do it properly, would use this feature. And they would be familiar with the effects of using improper matrices and not assume something was wrong with your app.

:rolleyes:
oh my God!.first you did a "friendly menace": Nic, I see you are still a glutton for punishment..remember? now this....seems an problematic great-aut maiden(spinster?)that don't want to know about the general concern and think that only your "daydream" is right. wait.....Nic have brain (and his brian is working marvelous,can you feel?) and he will do your tests and if the kvcd notch matrix don't give the results that he want,he will remove from QuENC but, not because he have personal objection like you have. and the worse: you are trying to take everybody to think like you, this is "sick" don't you think? why don't you stop to be so "bored"? you are embarrasing Nic with posts like that! and Nic give his wonderful work for everybody,testing everything cos here is a forum, not a gang that some have dictators opinions. he is developing QuENC for grace with competence, he knows what to do (and with wise) cos he want results, not enemys! Nic want catalyze,his person and work proove it,if don't he never will use the kvcd notch matirx feature in his big project! no matter if will be removed, he will follow his own good sense. (horrible english don't?)
hint : do like me...came here to remove doubts and for big thanks...be simple,admire and greatful! i can't do something like QuENC, can you? no? then....thanks Nic and don't "bore"! :p

@ Nic
if this is ot please delete or edit but do the same with others ot like i quoted!
thanks for the new QuENC! ;)

Teegedeck

3rd May 2004, 21:19

jorel, this is strike-worthy. And BTW, Nic has included the KVCD matrix because there was call for it, he himself hasn't even tried it. Neither have I. I have no use for it and would much rather prefer one of Didée's in its place; I like DDogg's idea which would provide everyone with the freedom to use the matrix he/she likes best.

And grow up.

jorel

3rd May 2004, 21:41

Originally posted by Teegedeck
jorel, this is strike-worthy. And BTW, Nic has included the KVCD matrix because there was call for it, he himself hasn't even tried it. Neither have I. I have no use for it and would much rather prefer one of Didée's in its place; I like DDogg's idea.

And grow up.

everything caming from Didée is welcome..ever!
i do my tests too,everyday with QuENC and kvcd notch matrix and never get problems,only amazing results.
i respect your opinion, but "strike-worthy" and "grow up" ? :p is without wise for me (if you excuse me to post my opinion too)!
do you know Steven Schultz? can you write "strike-worthy" and "grow up" for Steven Schultz too in that link?
http://www1.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-dev-eng/2003-October/021535.html
The claim that the Kvcd tables reduce the "splotches" during
dark scenes is true - the dimly lit scenes do look better when
using the Kvcd tables.

Cheers,
Steven Schultz

that is the Steven Schultz opinion too, not only mine!
;)

Teegedeck

3rd May 2004, 21:46

No, your use of the KVCD notch matrix is not strikeworthy, so why should I tell a Mr Schultz...

Your previous post is strikeworthy for rules 3, 4 and 16, read it up.

dvd2svcd

3rd May 2004, 22:03

Two things I noticed using the commandline:

1. The -dc options doesn't seem to work. I tried -dc 10 but the dropdown box in advanced settings was blank
2. There is no way to set the max bitrate or auto max. bitrate through the commandline.

This is the complete commandline I used:

QuEnc.exe -i AviSynth_Script_file.avs -o Encoded_Video_QuEnc_NTSC.mpv -b 7200 -2 -gopsize 12 -maxbframes 2 -dc 10
-auto -close -mpeg2 -trell -nocgop -nointerlaced -extreme -hq -scene -nokvcd -aspectratio 4:3

Edit:
Using the above commandline killed QuEnc 50% (progressbar). My avs file looks like this:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\AVISYN~1.5PL\Mpeg2dec\MPEG2D~1.DLL")
MPEG2Source("C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\Movie\QuEnc10\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
LanczosResize(720,360)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60)
ConvertToYV12()

The source was a small chapter from Alien. The d2v file was created with dvd2avi 1.76 and using Avisynth 2.54

Nic

3rd May 2004, 22:31

This was probably due to the fact the DC commandline command wasn't working. The Internal variable will have been set to -2 instead of 2. This will have been passed straight to libavcodec which probably made it crash. I'll test now to be sure. expect an update soon :)

Cheers,
-Nic

jorel

3rd May 2004, 22:41

Originally posted by Teegedeck
No, your use of the KVCD notch matrix is not strikeworthy, so why should I tell a Mr Schultz...

Your previous post is strikeworthy for rules 3, 4 and 16, read it up.

ok,i follow your recomendations and the rules 3,4 and 16(and the others too):
3- i keep the focus,the kvcd notch matrix is the focus in the QuENC thread and in DDogg post!
4- excuse me if you "feel" insults,i don't did that, i don't posted insults. for me posts with words: Nic, I see you are still a glutton for punishment and I'm not taking a snipe this time [well maybe a little] show no respect for the moderator and is breacking this rule (#4)
16- as you can easily see,i follow your recomendations and read all the rules again, i have the rules in my hd saved too! ;)

Teegedeck, i wasn't without respect, out of topic or break any local rule....only if it's a personal problem for you. like i wrote, a moderator can edit or delete that post. but is true what i posted,right? thanks! :o

Nic

3rd May 2004, 22:56

http://nic.dnsalias.com/QuEnc.zip

Changes:

-dc option now works correctly (doh! 1000l at Micheal would say)

Added missing commandline options (maxbitrate priority)

Turning off Scene Detection also now enforces strict GOP structure (to help with ABond's problem :) )

Also raised threshold hack to remove Could Not Open Video Codec error.

Cheers,
-Nic

DDogg

3rd May 2004, 22:57

jorel, sorry, I didn't mean to send you into a feeding frenzy again. I just want to be able to use a matrix that I personally consider much less damaging to the video for the bitrates I use.

Yes, It is also true that I am personally very uncomfortable with a so called proprietary matrix being the only one offered in nic's project, but ultimately that is his choice and he knows I will ultimately respect his decision whatever it is. Certainly, until then, I can bring my requests to him and ask a concession for myself and others with the same needs and wants. I thought the solution proposed was a very clean way to give you, and everybody else, a chance to use what they prefer without causing hardly any work for nic (I think).

Jorel, also, please try to slow down and present what you are trying to say in a reasoned and clear manner. I'm seen you do that before, so I know you can be very clear when you want to be. The above is such mumbo-jumbo that I can't even understand what you are upset about. (No, please don't try to tell me again in this thread)

In short, it was completely incoherent to me, which is at the root of why you may feel people here treat you poorly. I don't think anybody dislikes you, but blatant incoherency caused by lack of effort does offend people very badly as it shows a complete lack of respect to the reader who might really like to hear what you are saying. You do have good things to contribute, Jorel and they are appreciated. It is just so very hard to understand you sometimes. Please try just a little harder. I think you will see a positive outcome that is equal to the effort you are willing to put forth.

Teegedeck

3rd May 2004, 23:01

Taking the words right out of my mouth! (Or to be honest, I couldn't have put it so well.)

audioslave

3rd May 2004, 23:51

A new version :) . Good work Nic! Do I dare to ask if the bitrate control is more precise in this version than the previous ones...?

SILICON

4th May 2004, 00:15

Originally posted by DDogg
Yes, It is also true that I am personally very uncomfortable with a so called proprietary matrix

Don't worry.
Nic live in England. In Europe you can not patented one matrix.
In Europe noboby have a proprietary matrix.

@NIC
Can you quit the mirror bug and the bitrate bug?
Do you received my e.mail with attach?

You are very fast coder :-)

audioslave

4th May 2004, 00:39

BTW Is the link to the 0.51 version dead, or just flooded???

jorel

4th May 2004, 00:39

@ DDogg
i can understand why you're "uncomfortable" about the matrix but it works very fine. maybe for this reason Nic give us a option to choose, some people "tick", some people "untick"! i know that you respect Nic's decision, me too and everybody here... he will do the best for us all!
reasoned and clear manner? oh sorry and excuse my poor english DDogg, i'm clear only after use a big dictionary (maybe):o please,don't wait hard feelings from me, i see you as one of the most important members here for me and for all. my best regards and respect for you! :)

@ Teegedeck
seems that you understand the position like DDogg. can we forgot about the "strikeworthy" ? ;)

@ dvd2svcd
thanks for new 122 build 1 version!(not ot cos everybody will download it too) :)

@ SILICON
don't worry. Nic was called to use the kvcd notch matrix and no matter where he live, i am his witness about that (if needed)!vmesquita call for custom matrix/Gop support in the first page and Kwag signals ok after his own test using the kvcd notch matrix in the fifth page of this thread! then, no problems! :)

@ Nic
thanks(again) for the new QuEnc 0.51 . ;) i can't download... maybe have big traffic!...still trying ! :)

@ all
emoticons help my poor english! :o thanks.

DDogg

4th May 2004, 02:02

jorel, nice job. No problem understanding you. As for hard feelings? How could anybody have hard feelings for somebody that smiles as much as you do? :)

jorel

4th May 2004, 04:00

Originally posted by DDogg
jorel, nice job. No problem understanding you. As for hard feelings? How could anybody have hard feelings for somebody that smiles as much as you do? :)

:) thanks for that special answer DDogg! your words are like a premium for me.

@ Nic
i still can't download the QuEnc 0.51.(some friends are sending pm for me asking if i get the file.) thanks.

edited>
round 6 hours after my first try i got the file...was the "flood" !

dragongodz

4th May 2004, 06:41

all having trouble downloading - its there and does download, i just did. the problem is no doubt every man and his dog trying to get it all at once(its very popular after all). so some patience is needed to get it. this will prbably just get worse the more popular it becomes. :)

SILICON - the rate control has some known problems. one of which is the first few GOPS are all done at quant 1 so the bitrate is not respected for them. after that however the rate control starts to take effect.

Abond

4th May 2004, 09:24

@Nic
Thank you very much!

Affar

4th May 2004, 12:46

@All

Here are a little mirror of QuEnc 0.51 :)

http://www.deco-flower.com/quenc/QuEnc.0.51.zip

Seeya

yaz

4th May 2004, 14:04

@affar
thx alot !!! u simply saved my life ! (not a big deal, anyway:-)nic's site's unavailable (for me?) for days :-((
y

SILICON

4th May 2004, 20:47

I make a test with the version 0.51
The version 0.51 have the bug Trellis & KVCD

For replicate the bug:

1 - Make one AVS with this code:
-----------------------------------------------
BlankClip(length=100, width=720, height=576, fps=25, color=$000000)
ConvertToYV12()
Subtitle("YOU CAN SEE THE BUG", 0, 126, 0, 100, "Arial", 36)
-----------------------------------------------

2 - Put the settings TRELLIS and KVCD MATRIX
3 - Encode the AVS
4 - Play The M2V. You can see that the text are bad.

@NIC. I hope that this help you.

JDay

4th May 2004, 21:28

Hmm... Ran that test above, then checked the frametypes in VDubMod. Looks like this only affects I and P frames (I more than P), and only for MPEG 2. The bug will show up on an I-frame, but which GOP is dependent on some settings:
1st GOP: VBR, no 2 Pass
2nd GOP: Both or Neither VBR & 2 Pass
3rd GOP: 2 Pass, no VBR
I aslo got slighty different results using different GOP sizes. Hope some of this info helps.

t_2

4th May 2004, 22:14

Managed to encode an hour long DV at full PAL resolution, and though I'm no expert, at 7500Kbs the quality looked very good to me. Took 2.5 hours per pass which seems pretty fast.

One problem, the program seems unstable with random crashes, I was using version .45 but today tried .51 with the same results, random crashes at the above bitrate, with MPEG2, 2passVBR, high quality, closed GOP, no trellis, and no interlace. I am opening the video in Avisynth with avisource, and it is using Panasonic VFW DV codec to open it, avs has audio, but of course that isn't passed to the encoder, haven't tried DirectShowSource yet or KillAudio, but these are next on my list.

Windows2000, AthlonXP

SILICON

4th May 2004, 22:27

I make a test clip of 1000 frames.
--------------------------------
ColorBars(720, 576)
ConvertToYV12()
AssumeFPS(25)
Trim(1, 1000)
--------------------------------

I encoded with QuEnc 0.51 and the GOP are ever IBPBPBPBPBPBPB if i set on "SCENE DETECTION"
I set MAX B FRAMES=2

The image are STATIC (Do not have motion). I think thar the correct GOP for this type of image are IBBPBBPBBPBBPBB
I test with fast motion image, but never see BB

Its one bug or one feature?

Another question:
In MPEG1, aspect ratio is ever 1:1.
Is it a bug?

Nic

4th May 2004, 23:23

@SILICON: Thanks for the tip about finding the KVCD Matrix + Trellis bug. I'll try that now. With your GOP problem Settings. Is that with Scene Detection off or on. Aspect Ratio in MPEG-1 is weird. I don't quite understand it.lol...So I left it up to libavcodec, which is very good at getting it wrong. I'll take a look.

@t_2: I've never had a crash yet ??? Anyone else having similar problems? Might be your system or that DV Codec, but ill take a look :)

Thanks :)

-Nic

ps
In the next version the "Can't find Video Codec bug" will be definitely fixed. Hacked in a better fix tonight ;)

SILICON

4th May 2004, 23:56

@NIC

The bad GOP "IBPBPBPBPBPBPB" is with Scene Detection=ON
If Scene Detection=off then the GOP is ok.
I think that scene detection theshold can be too low.

It isn't a problem, but with good GOP the quality will be better and the bitrate will be lower, isn´t it?

You say "Aspect Ratio in MPEG-1 is weird".
Sorry by my bad english, but I don't understand to you.

I think that very important bugs are
- The broken bitrate control. I can't use QuEnc for encode SVCD
- The TRELLIS + KVCD bug. Perhaps it give us more quality.

Nic

5th May 2004, 10:58

@SILICON:
"The broken bitrate control. I can't use QuEnc for encode SVCD"
What's wrong with the bitrate control? The high bitrate spike you sometimes get or something more?

"The TRELLIS + KVCD bug. Perhaps it give us more quality."
I wouldn't worry too much about that. But I will get it sorted soon.

"Aspect Ratio in MPEG-1 is weird"
In MPEG-2 Aspect Ratios are either 4:3, 16:9, etc. In MPEG-1 there are alot of different ratios. All referenced by a number like 0.6735, 0.7031, etc. If anyone has any more info on MPEG-1 aspect ratios please let me know...

Cheers,
-Nic

dapipa

6th May 2004, 10:14

Originally posted by Amenophis
When using the extreme and slow settings, the encoder will try to choose a gop pattern, which will result in the best quality using the given bitrate. so your encode is better then with the pattern you wanted the encoder to use. the values 'max B Frames' and 'GOP-Lenght' are in this case the maximum values which the encoder may use. the only bug in this feature seems to be, that it will never use 2 B-Frames.

Originally posted by SILICON
I encoded with QuEnc 0.51 and the GOP are ever IBPBPBPBPBPBPB if i set on "SCENE DETECTION".

what about 'a little work-around' - setting 'max B frames' to 3?
won't that help?

Originally posted by audioslave
Do I dare to ask if the bitrate control is more precise in this version than the previous ones...?

rate control works just right for me - with another little work-around though - i encoded a few movies and all were undersized (all around 2.5%),so i re-encoded them with bitrate set to desired_bitrate + 2,5% and sim-sala-bim-bim-bim (magic word) - desired file size was hit almost exactly...

yaz

6th May 2004, 12:32

@nic:
imho, silicon meant that the streams generated exceeded (fairly) the maxrate set while keeping the target bitrate perfectly. (i've tried it with 051 too & i found the same) this way it's 'impossible' to generate 'standard' svcd
anyway, i don't know whether it's a problem for modern standalones but my pdvd4 hates that.
the bests
y

Nic

6th May 2004, 12:48

@yaz and everyone: Could you give me info as to whether the bitrate is exceeded only once (with a peak at the start or end)...or if it's been exceeded throughout the encode?

-Nic

yaz

6th May 2004, 15:28

Originally posted by Nic
@yaz and everyone: Could you give me info as to whether the bitrate is exceeded only once (with a peak at the start or end)...or if it's been exceeded throughout the encode?i've made severe testing of mencoder (& i'm about to release some results). the target bitrate was kept pretty well under most of the conditions but the maxrate needed always a third 'fitting' run. i haven't found a safe & robust setting for getting that in 2 pass. maxrate is very sensitive to rate tolerance, lmin (lagrange factor), target bitrate, q scaling (mencoder terms) ... imho, it's simply not handled. mencoder is xxellent in keeping the target rate but very loose in keeping the maxrate. in add., whatever attempts i've made for controlling the minrate collapsed the whole bitrate algo. it seemed to run out of control completely. in general, target rate is kept within a 0.25% range but in these instances i got deviations of even 25% (???)
the bests
y
ps btw, do u know that milan is working on hacking ffmeg/mencoder accpeting direct avs input. he's just released the 1st version on kvcd.net

Centurione

6th May 2004, 15:39

posted by dapipa
i encoded a few movies and all were undersized (all around 2.5%),so i re-encoded them with bitrate set to desired_bitrate + 2,5% and sim-sala-bim-bim-bim (magic word) - desired file size was hit almost exactly...

The +2.5% (or more probably +2.4%) depends, I think, from the fact that QEnc, based on ffmpeg, consider 1 Kbit = 1000 bit ( I noticed that in the Mplayer/Mencoder documentation, always based on libavodec), so to have the precise size in KBytes (1024 * 8 bits) you have to make this correction (but it is the same thing in the CCE documentation 1 Kbit = 1000 bit).

regards.

yaz

6th May 2004, 15:56

@centurione
i know this 'discrepancy' (1000 or 1024) but ... i set the target rate in mencoder (on whatever scale) & i check the result given back by mencoder (imho, on the same scale). the deviaton of 0.25% (not 2.5% !) related to that.
the bests
y

Nocturno

6th May 2004, 16:06

as i posted a lot earlier in this huge thread ;)

i get undersizing upto 20% compared to cbr CCE encodes,although i havent tried 0.51 yet, i intend to do so asap.

converting avi to dvd with high bitrates (7000+) mainly.

Asmodeus

7th May 2004, 11:26

Hi Nic.
I've already tested QuEnc and as all libavcodec encoders it is fabules :)
Do you plan to add manual sharp setting of quantizer min and max values ? I know tha this is "very advanced option", but I do my ffvfw MPEG1/2 encodes at fixed quantizer 5 or 4 (sometime at 3) cause of great compresibillity of material. Any chances to add this feature ? Thx :)

SILICON

7th May 2004, 12:45

Originally posted by Nic
@SILICON:
"The broken bitrate control. I can't use QuEnc for encode SVCD"
What's wrong with the bitrate control? The high bitrate spike you sometimes get or something more?

- The high bitrate spike are alwais at the begin of M2V. The bitrate start high and drow faster. I don´t see the bug in another place.

- When I encode a shot clip (1000 or 2000 frames) the bitrate control don't work. QuEnc ignore the average bitrate value.

- When I encode a static image (no motion image), the bitrate are very diferent along the time (in the 1000 first frames).

- I think that with one static image [ColorBars()], the bitrate will be a regular parten (high in I frame, Very low (or zero) in P and B frames). Do you put a fixed min. bitrate?

Abond

7th May 2004, 13:12

I made some testing about this bitrate issue. 5000 frames with following settings;
MPEG2, VBR(1700), High Quality, Notch,max BR 2600. There was a peak (at 90th sec) at 4200 kbps. Without Notch - the same, Scenedetect checked - the same, 2 pass - the same. The distribution of the bitrate throughout the clip was even the same. So I was angry;) and unchecked Use VBR. The analysis show me even then that the file is VBR with a peak at 5100, but this time quite later in the clip. BTW the peak at 90th sec was still 4200. I made quickly the math and tried with bitrate 2000 - the peak was 7200 instead of 5100. I don't know what to think. The program for analysing was MPEG Validator (look in General Discussion for download link).

yaz

7th May 2004, 14:15

Originally posted by Abond
...I don't know what to think. The program for analysing was MPEG Validator (look in General Discussion for download link). try to uncheck 'notch' & lower max to somewhere 2100. let's see what happens. next, try to lower target & max at once ... according to my experience, u somehow reached what i call (unless i got better) the saturation limit. from this up no way of decreasing the maxrate. (varying bitrate tolerance & lmin in mencoder may also help but these are unavailable here :-) sorry, but i have not more
the bests
y
ps how do u succeded with mpegv ? whenever i try to load my m2v streams it drops a warning (about compliancy) and stops. did u mux some audio, or what ?

Abond

7th May 2004, 14:43

I will continue with testings of course. About Mpeg V. yes I muxed the file in bbMPEG with dummy audio produced with BeSliced. The compliance errors in MV are because the aim of the prog is to analyse the file for CATV insertion (AFAI understood). Of course my files are not compliant...;)
Edit: I tested MV with MPEG2 hardware capture (CBR 12000 kbps). It shows the information correctly.
Edit2: MV doesn't accept elementary streams.

dragongodz

8th May 2004, 07:18

Yaz - lmin etc are actually libavcodec settings not mencoder(which uses libavcodec the same as QuEnc does). they are available in source of course and Nic may wish to play around with them to see what yields better results.
i dont see why every single option needs to be available for users to change either. i mean you are asking for people to mess with things they shouldnt, result = people blaming QuEnc for their own mistakes. QuEnc is meant to be relativly easy to use but also allow people to change settings customise the output. its a fine line how many of the options are needed for the 2 to stay true. Nic has added options as requested and deemed reasonable so i wouldnt count the current setup as final just yet.

Amenophis

8th May 2004, 18:15

I did some more encodes with QuEnc, the quality was fine and all played perfect on my hardware player. nevertheless i've got some observations and suggestions:

- the first frame of every cell has a bad quality. (Althrough it's hard to notice during playback).
First Frame:http://mitglied.lycos.de/enc0404/b2/hl1.jpg
Second Frame:http://mitglied.lycos.de/enc0404/b2/hl2.jpg

- more info about the bitrate peaks: I've gotten some with the settings HQ/Trellis/VBR/Scene Detection using an average bitrate of 3500 kbit/s. the peak is somewhere in the middle of a cell, the scene has high motion and details. Bitrate is 600 kbit/s above the limit. QuEnc encoded this GOP and some GOPs before and behind only with I-Frames. Without Scene Detection these peaks (at least this one) doesn't happen.

encoded frame:http://mitglied.lycos.de/enc0404/b2/matr3.jpg
bitrate viewer:http://mitglied.lycos.de/enc0404/b2/matr3bv.jpg

- does the libav codec provide an option to turn on the non-linear quantizer scale? imho this could improve quality, cce and tmpeg are using this.

- is QuEnc already optimized somehow for interlaced encoding(interlaced DCT, alternate scan,...), or does it just set the interlaced flag? Additionally, QuEnc seems to set no TFF flag even if the source has one, so i've to set this in restream afterwards.

lamster

10th May 2004, 05:40

Hi,

The pause feature is handy; might be nice if there was some visual indication that it was paused (other than waiting to see if the screen's stopped updating). Also, the calculation for time remaining doesn't take into acount the amount of time that the process has been paused.

(Neither one's a big deal; just thought I'd mention them.)

Thanks.

yaz

10th May 2004, 08:27

@dragongodz
i'm afraid u misunderstood me. i did not want to push nic in any way. he asked sg & i just answered want i'd found about it so far. that's all.
the terms i used is not that used with ffmpeg that's why i mentioned.
what's too much & what's not is quite subjective. e.g. i like if i have control on all(!) the relevant factors. u don't. that's a point where we differ.
i can't really get what u want from me. should i stay silent & keep what i have just for myself, or what ? imho, i've never ever told even a word aginst quenc, so ... (???) :-((
the bests
y

dragongodz

10th May 2004, 13:11

i'm afraid u misunderstood me. i did not want to push nic in any way. he asked sg & i just answered want i'd found about it so far. that's all.
the terms i used is not that used with ffmpeg that's why i mentioned.
no it appears its you who has misunderstood. i dont see where i said you were trying to push Nic or that you shouldnt post what you have observed. i pointed out that the options are libavcodec settings so ARE relevant and Nic has the ability to change them in source. mencoder and ffmpeg are basically just front ends to libavcodec same as QuEnc is.

what's too much & what's not is quite subjective. e.g. i like if i have control on all(!) the relevant factors. u don't. that's a point where we differ.
well i already said its a fine line how to keep a program newbie freindly while adding options for more experienced users. ok you and i may know what every option does but someone else just learning is more likly to stuff things up changing things he/she shouldnt if every option is given. as a programmer i know you should never asume that only people that have been using these types of tools for years are going to be the only ones to do so.
i also said that Nic has added options so may add more later aswell so the more control you wish may be there later.

i can't really get what u want from me. should i stay silent & keep what i have just for myself, or what ? imho, i've never ever told even a word aginst quenc, so ... (???) :-((
huh ? i never said not to post your observations(if anything i pointed out how relevant they are) and i never said you said anything bad against QuEnc either.
so what do i want from you ? not a thing. i have no idea why you felt the need to go on the defensive, thats something for you to workout with yourself. :)

yaz

10th May 2004, 14:25

@dragongodz
ok ... i've let the steam out. sorry, if i was too offensive. i just felt u blamed me for sg i'd never done. sorry, again.

ok, some positive feedback. i've been experimenting further (with mencoder :-) i've found there's a hard limit for 'limited encodes'. i mean, when not only the target but the limiting bitrates are also interested.
i tried to vary maxrate & minrate simultaneously so as to keep a maxrate=2500. some results

target max min -> avg./max /q_avg
1500 2500 not set 1499/2493/3.52
1750 2500 not set 1749/2868/3.06
1750 2135 not set 1750/2498/3.11 (some buffer underflows)
2000 2500 not set 2000/2895/2.74 (some buffer underflows)
2000 2000 not set 1998/2638/3.03 (heavy buffer underflows!)
2000 2000 2000 2000/2398/3.78 (some buffer underflows)

from here i've found no way of going on by varying min/maxrate. instead i used lmin/rate_tolerance. but neither this way i was able to maintain target=2250,max=2500.
pls, note also that limiting the bitrate means a kinda degradation in the overall quality as indicated by the average quantizer. for my testclip the apparent 'optimal' target bitrate is somewhere round 1750. going up or down from here gives higher average quantizer. so in this instance the rule of 'increase the bitrate for better quality' is not so self-evident.
for going on i must reexamine the other parameters i 'optimized' before. maybe that impose some unnecessaqry restriction(s) on the bitrate business.
the bests
y

dragongodz

16th May 2004, 05:14

ye i have been testing different options aswell. the rate control simply is not working properly. this needs major work in libavcodec but we can all hope it will be fixed eventually.

SILICON

16th May 2004, 12:29

@Nic

Two weeks without new releases.
Do you stop the development?
Are the bugs very hard of "kill"?

I don't want stress you, but I'd like get some news of your wonderfull development.

Sorry by my impatient.

Cheers.

Nic

16th May 2004, 15:30

Ok, the lack of development can be summed up in "I'm busy"
(edited..)

I'm sure you guys understand ;)

Also, got a big project at work that takes precedent :(

I'm keeping a close eye on the libavcodec developments. Alot of the bugs can't be fixed without a re-write of the ratecontrol. Might realease a version later just to get rid of the "Cannot open video codec bug", but without much other change...

-Nic

BruceL

16th May 2004, 16:15

@Nic

Sounds like a good reason for a spring break!

Enjoy! :D

(will be patiently waiting)

jorel

19th May 2004, 12:46

:cool:
a really great new from d2s readme that i don't knew:
"xx may 2004 version 1.2.2 build 2 (Unreleased)
- New feature: I have added support for Nic's QuEnc. Now DVD2SVCD can be run with freeware programs only if you want to :) "
why nobody post about this here?(or i don't saw?)
maybe this is one of the big great Nic's project! ;)
hey Nic, you edit the b...d? :p

DDogg

19th May 2004, 17:13

I'm keeping a close eye on the libavcodec developments. Alot of the bugs can't be fixed without a re-write of the ratecontrol. Glad you brought that up as I'm not so sure that everybody using QuEnc realizes you are dependent on the libavcodec work and there is not much you can do until those updates happen. It's kinda funny really, I'll bet you may get slightly frustrated while waiting for libavcodec updates like other folks get frustrated waiting for an update of QuEnc :)

Nic

19th May 2004, 17:34

No, I just get frustrated that I don't have time to do the libavcodec stuff myself....Nothing I'd want to change is particulary difficult, but the testing of a new ratecontrol system would take a lot of time, and I think that's also what's probably stopping Michael from coding it now...

Michael on the ffmpeg-dev list, has a very dry way about him, it's a good read while waiting for any good news ;)

e.g.
For example yesterday he rejected a patch with the only reason being:
"rejected, its 50% cosmetics"

-Nic

human75

20th May 2004, 10:19

i make a dvd.my dvd have 2 track audio..m2v maximum bitrate 9000.my audio files english 5.1 + english 2.0 and 1 english subtitle.What is the qenc 0.51 buffer overflow problem.thanks for idea.

dragongodz

20th May 2004, 13:29

human75 - this would be the total max bitrate spiking over the dvd specs. try setting max bitrate in QuEnc to 8000 and see if that restrains it any better.

human75

20th May 2004, 18:08

ok thanks for answer,Qenc give over flow error,but i make same movie with CCE 2.5 (max bitrate 9000) dvd maestro compile without over flow problem.
9000(m2v)
448 (5.1 DD audio)
192 (2.0 DD audio)
+
-----
9640 kbps...that's right?
what is the problem in QENC?
i try max bitrate 8000 in QENC...and reported.Thanks for ideas...
---------------------------------------------
i try max bitrate 8000.dvd maestro compile without overflow problem...thanks

dragongodz

21st May 2004, 15:10

its a known problem that QuEnc(libavcodec rate control to be exact) can spike past what you set for max bitrate. so if you set 9000 it may say spike to 10000 or such. then you go above dvd max total bitrate which is why maestro would complain.

mr.johnson

21st May 2004, 16:01

I just downloaded the ffmpeg source. I know you can encode many codecs. But I only find one file ratecontrol.c. The first time I ever looked at such a complex project...does that mean every VBR is done with that? mpeg1,mpeg2,mpeg4?? :confused:
Just a question: But does bbmpeg have such bitrate problems, too?
Because if it worked there..bbmpeg isn't worked on anymore...perhaps this project can merge with ffmpeg?
:stupid:
Please flame for not having had a closer look at it...:eek:

dragongodz

21st May 2004, 20:00

does that mean every VBR is done with that? mpeg1,mpeg2,mpeg4?
i havent looked at the other codecs referencing so dont know but its possible.

Just a question: But does bbmpeg have such bitrate problems, too?
BBMpegs rate control is basically the reference TM5 rate control. i havent tested it for max bitrate but it may be an idea to. :)

freelock7

23rd May 2004, 15:59

Great freeware Nic!
Works fine for MPEG2 encoding with avisynth scripts!
Settings:
-VBR(2000-min)
-treillis:on
-double pass: on(1)
-detect scene change:on
-gop size:15
-high quality:on(2)

(1) "off" make pixels in action scene.
the 2pass create high bitrate in complex scene-the 1pass don't do that!
(2) for action movie always "on" for best result.
Tmpgenc works good but slower than QuEnc.

mean

23rd May 2004, 21:37

For the 2pass, it is another feature of libavcodec :)
It does the maxbitrate clipping when it does computation at the end of the 1st pass to distribute the bitrate
But it does not try to enforce maxbitrate in the actual pass2
So if the effective frame size differs from the projected one, overshoot happens and cumulates

There is also a patch that makes things a bit better in the same source tree as for the pulldown patch

It is not yet really good, but better than without it, the overshoot is smaller.

SILICON

24th May 2004, 22:39

A few monts ago I see one project, don´t remenber somewere. The procet merge a MPEG codec and the XviD engine.

Can you use the controlRate of XviD for the QuEnc?
Is a stupid idea?

dragongodz

25th May 2004, 12:25

since Xvid doesnt respect max bitrate at all there is no point using its rate control.

EpheMeroN

5th June 2004, 05:36

I just wanted to say GREAT work on this free alternative MPEG-2 encoder.

I have been using it for a month now and am really pleased w/ the results Nic. Keep up the awesome work.

I've only been using the CBR and 1-Pass settings for my MPEG-2 due to hearing there's issues w/ the VBR going above the max DVD bitrate limit. Nonetheless, CBR @ 5600 bitrate is very pleasing to my eyes w/ my analog captures.

One quick question though... under the "Advanced Options" where the GOP Size is, shouldn't that be 18 for NTSC? Or is 18 the max limit for NTSC because that's what it is within the TMPGEnc templates.

I hope to possibly see Min, Avg, and Max bitrate settings in a future release :D

dragongodz

5th June 2004, 06:47

setting the max bitrate well under your real desired max can help reduce the spiking. so if you wanted say a max bitrate of 9000 set max at 8000 and see if it gets over 9000 then. :)

GOP size of 18 is maximum for NTSC just as 15 is maximum for PAL.

EpheMeroN

5th June 2004, 07:22

Are there any benefits of setting the GOP to the MAX of 18 for NTSC material?

jdobbs

5th June 2004, 18:26

You shouldn't set it to 18. I would recommend no higher than 15. There are circumstances in which CCE makes a decision to add more frames than you've set. If you set it to 18, you could end up with an illegal GOP.

TSO COBOL

5th June 2004, 23:03

how can I do for VCD ?

I don't want VBR, but I have it even if I don't make "use vbr"

I say that cause bitrate viewer show me lots of variation and mplex tell me that the bitrate is variable and he dont mux

thanks for all

EpheMeroN

6th June 2004, 05:35

wmansir

6th June 2004, 09:40

A GOP is a self contained Group of Pictures that does not reference frames outside the group. There are several ways to encode a still frame in MPEG2 and the most efficient rely on what was in the previous frame (P type) or both the previous and next frame (B type). There is also a way to encode a frame so it depends on neither and can be decoded independently (I type), each GOP has to start with one of these.

By increasing the GOP size you increase the number of P and B frames and reduce the number of I frames in your video. Since P and B type encode more efficiently that means your video should look better.* But hardware decoders can choke if the GOP size is too large. My player doesn't even like a 15 frame GOP (at least it didn't with SVCDs), so I stick to 12.

* Of course, this isn't always true.

jdobbs

6th June 2004, 10:44

Originally posted by jdobbs
You shouldn't set it to 18. I would recommend no higher than 15. There are circumstances in which CCE makes a decision to add more frames than you've set. If you set it to 18, you could end up with an illegal GOP. Man... I've been discussing questions on CCE in the DVD-RB forum so much that I didn't even look at the title of the thread and forum I was addressing. The fact that CCE does this is of course unrelated to QuEnc. My apologies for the OT answer.

dragongodz

6th June 2004, 11:43

I don't want VBR, but I have it even if I don't make "use vbr"
confirmed and noted.

Since P and B type encode more efficiently that means your video should look better.
in low bitrate encodes you may notice a difference for example but in general you probably wont.

There are circumstances in which CCE makes a decision to add more frames than you've set. If you set it to 18, you could end up with an illegal GOP.
that would be known as a bug in CCE then. :)

TSO COBOL

6th June 2004, 12:38

I have tested in command line too, same result

you can do something ? :)

DannyZ69

6th June 2004, 20:31

Is this still under development?

I believe QuEnc has the potential to be one of the greatest MPEG encoders out there, if this min/max bitrate limitations can ever get sorted out!

Shubin

7th June 2004, 14:06

Looks like a great tool, it's fast and quality looks like
great, but...
I'm using dvdauthor+dvdauthorgui latest versions.
Dvdauthor complains about files made by QuEnc, it says
'too many dropped frames' (???) and adds only part of
the file, for some strange reason.
The same .avs file, encoded with TMPGEnc at the same bitrate
does not cause such problems.
What could be done ?

dragongodz

7th June 2004, 14:56

Is this still under development?
no new version for a little while and that means its dead ? no it isnt so yes its still under development. Nic is a very busy person though.

you can do something ?
already done some testing. hmm libavcodec doesnt seem real CBR freindly. will try some more things out and report all finding to Nic so hopefully this should be improved next version or so....maybe. :)

Dvdauthor complains about files made by QuEnc, it says
'too many dropped frames' (???) and adds only part of
the file, for some strange reason.
ok i will try to squeeze looking at this in aswell at some point. can you tell me your settings you are encoding to so i can try to emulate it ?

EpheMeroN

8th June 2004, 04:49

I'd like to request an option for a future release.

An option to choose either YUY2 'or' YV12 as the input colorspace.

99% of the video I feed to QuEnc is YUY2 and I try to keep max quality and avoid color conversions at all costs buy QuEnc requires YV12.

It's still a great tool. Just a simple and humble req :)

dragongodz

8th June 2004, 06:57

ok more testing done with mpeg1 cbr. hmm definatly not good. i even tested using libavcodec's(ffmpeg) -vcd setting. it couldnt keep cbr even using that. yep it still went up and down all the way and infact undersized the target bitrate.

so until rate control in libavcodec is rewritten this may not be really useful.

Wilbert

8th June 2004, 12:23

99% of the video I feed to QuEnc is YUY2 and I try to keep max quality and avoid color conversions at all costs but QuEnc requires YV12.
It's not possible to avoid color conversions. There will always be a conversion to YV12, because the video stream in mpeg2 is stored as YV12.

Paced

10th June 2004, 09:50

Hey everyone, I think I've come across some sort of bug when "Scene Detection" is turned on - with "2 Pass Encoding" enabled. Firstly, I've made a short (21 second) clip for whoever's interested to test what I've found; an AVS script is included in the file:

Test Clip (4.65 MB) (http://www.geocities.com/cuong_fu/testclip.zip) - Right click, "Save Target As"

Secondly, here are the settings I used on this particular clip:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

- MPEG-2
- Bitrate = 2641
- Use VBR = ON
- High Quality = ON
- Use Trellis Quant = OFF
- 2 Pass Encoding = On and OFF (I did two tests)

Advanced Options
- Use KVCD "Notch" Matrix = OFF
- "Extreme & Slow" Settings = OFF
- GOP Size = 12
- Max B-Frames = 2
- Interlaced Encoding = OFF
- DC Precision = 8
- Force Closed GOP = OFF
- Scene Detection = ON
- Auto Max Bitrate = OFF, Max Bitrate = 9000
- 4:3 Aspect Ratio

I did two tests with the same settings for both; however, the only difference was: one test was done with "2 Pass Encoding" enabled, and in the other, it was disabled (i.e. 1 Pass).

Here are the screenshot comparisons between the two clips (the file names are pretty much self-explanatory :D):

Screenshot Comparisons (308 KB) (http://paced.port5.com/Screenshot-Comparisons.zip)

As you can see, Scene Detection + 2 Pass Encoding = extremely blocky; and, Scene Detection - (minus) 2 Pass Encoding = perfect.

In addition, if you turn off Scene Detection, but leave 2 Pass Encoding on, the result is much better, but nowhere near as nice as the Scene Detection - 2 Pass Encoding combination.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, here is some information for those who will be running a few tests on this clip:

Open the resulting files in VirtualDubMod/VirtualDub-MPEG-2, then scroll to frame 292 in both clips (1 Pass/2 Pass) and compare them. Hopefully, you'll get the same results as I did :)

PS - Very sorry if my Web host is slow for you.

dragongodz

10th June 2004, 13:41

Paced - i got the screenshot file ok but the test clip throws a 404 error (page not found).

dplaton

10th June 2004, 14:11

By my experience, a limited one, I think that QuEnc is the best.
It will be helpfull if I can use a frameserver to feed QuEnc.
Now I capture the YUV raw with a cheap TVtuner,
I process the avi with VirtualDub compress Huffyuv,
encode with QuEnc and Beeswet,
and multiplex with TMpeg
to produce my SVCDs.

QuEnc work for me faster then Ulead, CCE, TMpeg, and even ffmpeg.
Also QuEnc is much more powerfull because of his elasticity.
My clips are not standard SVCD but with higher average bitrate.

I wasn't able to work directly with the raw avi, maybe because of ffmpeg.

dplaton@home.ro

Paced

10th June 2004, 17:42

Originally posted by dragongodz
Paced - i got the screenshot file ok but the test clip throws a 404 error (page not found).

Oops! Sorry dragongodz, my bad, my original Web host wouldn't allow a filesize that big on its server :( It's fixed now; had to make a new account with Geocities (:(), and had to shorten the clip by a few seconds for it to fit on there, hehe. Sorry again.

dragongodz

11th June 2004, 06:03

Paced - cool, its downloading now. cant say when i will get to play with it properly since i am sick as a dog at the moment and some things are happening in real life over the next couple of weeks which will mean i have very little free time. since i have it though i will look at it though. :)

Paced

12th June 2004, 01:51

Originally posted by dragongodz
Paced - cool, its downloading now. cant say when i will get to play with it properly since i am sick as a dog at the moment and some things are happening in real life over the next couple of weeks which will mean i have very little free time. since i have it though i will look at it though. :)

Cool, no problems. Thanks for taking interest, and take it easy mate :)

phaeton

19th June 2004, 21:49

Is there still a problem when using assumefps(23.976)? I'm trying DIKO to backup an XviD to DVDR I have, and I can _never_ get the subtitles to sync when I do it so I'm hoping this can... but when I try to run it when Quenc comes up, it gives me this error (in AVSReader):

Failed on AVS Load!

Does file c:\movie0.avs exist? (Errorcode: -21894..(big number))

Here is my AVS script:

Avisource("D:\cd1.avi",false)++Avisource("D:\cd2.avi",false)
AssumeFPS(23.976)
WIDESCREEN=0
Overscan=0
source_widescreen=0
WIDTH=704
HEIGHT=480
converttoyv12()
BlindPP(cpu=4)
Blockbuster(method="noise",detail_min=1,detail_max=3,variance=0.1,seed=1)
Convolution3D(1, 6, 12, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
DivXResize(WIDTH, HEIGHT, 0, "LanczosResize",WIDESCREEN)
Undot()
TemporalSoften(2,7,7,3,2)
DCTFilter(1,1,1,1,1,1,0.5,0)
#Blockbuster(method="noise",detail_min=1,detail_max=10,variance=0.3,seed=5623)
DivXBorders(HEIGHT,OVERSCAN)
AddAudio()
MonitorFilter
Converttoyv12()

Can anyone help possibly?

vmesquita

19th June 2004, 23:09

phaeton,

Maybe you should post this question in DIKO forum. Anyway, looks like you don't have avisynth 2.54 or the appropriated codec for this movie.

smok3

22nd June 2004, 01:50

shouldnt there be an option like: 'lower/upper field first' when interlaced encoding is selected? (or is the encoder smart enough to figure out the correct order?)

p.s. iam getting lots of macroblocks on half of the frames on my test clip, fast zoom-outs will break the stream completely..., i guess i must be doing something really wrong.

edit: mkay, vbr must be ticked, no major dropouts now, will test this further. :D
edit2: btw, in the gui - would it be possible to add some sort of label for the pass number where 2pass encoding is selected? (1st pass, 2nd pass)

Shubin

22nd June 2004, 06:54

Originally posted by dragongodz
ok i will try to squeeze looking at this in aswell at some point. can you tell me your settings you are encoding to so i can try to emulate it ?

- MPEG-2
- Bitrate = 7000
- Use VBR = OFF
- High Quality = ON
- Use Trellis Quant = OFF
- 2 Pass Encoding = OFF

Advanced Options
- Use KVCD "Notch" Matrix = OFF
- "Extreme & Slow" Settings = OFF
- GOP Size = 15
- Max B-Frames = 2
- Interlaced Encoding = ON
- DC Precision = 10
- Force Closed GOP = OFF
- Scene Detection = OFF
- Auto Max Bitrate = ON
- 4:3 Aspect Ratio

Clip contained few seconds of completely black frames.
It's the place where DVDauthor refuses to continue and
where resulting VOB stops playing. Here's what DVDauthor says
about it :

*multiplexing title: 2.....
INFO: [???] mplex version 2.2.2 ($Date: 2003/05/13 20:27:15 $)
INFO: [???] File H:\test09.dvd.m2v looks like an MPEG Video stream.
INFO: [???] File H:\test09.mp2 looks like an MPEG Audio stream.
INFO: [???] Video stream 0: profile 8 selected - ignoring non-standard options!
INFO: [???] Found 1 audio streams and 1 video streams
INFO: [???] Selecting dvdauthor DVD output profile
INFO: [???] Multiplexing video program stream!
INFO: [???] Scanning for header info: Video stream e0 (H:\test09.dvd.m2v)
INFO: [???] VIDEO STREAM: e0
INFO: [???] Frame width : 720
INFO: [???] Frame height : 576
INFO: [???] Aspect ratio : 16:9 display
INFO: [???] Picture rate : 25.000 frames/sec
INFO: [???] Bit rate : variable
INFO: [???] Vbv buffer size : 194560 bytes
INFO: [???] CSPF : 0
INFO: [???] Scanning for header info: Audio stream c0 (H:\test09.mp2)
INFO: [???] MPEG AUDIO STREAM: c0
INFO: [???] Audio version : 1.0
INFO: [???] Layer : 2
INFO: [???] CRC checksums : no
INFO: [???] Bit rate : 24576 bytes/sec (192 kbit/sec)
INFO: [???] Frequency : 48000 Hz
INFO: [???] Mode : 0 stereo
INFO: [???] Mode extension : 0
INFO: [???] Copyright bit : 0 no copyright
INFO: [???] Original/Copy : 0 copy
INFO: [???] Emphasis : 0 none
INFO: [???] SYSTEMS/PROGRAM stream:
INFO: [???] rough-guess multiplexed stream data rate : 0200800
INFO: [???] target data-rate specified : 10080000
INFO: [???] Setting specified specified data rate: 10080000
INFO: [???] Run-in Sectors = 89 Video delay = 13019 Audio delay = 0
INFO: [???] New sequence commences...
INFO: [???] Video e0: buf= 237568 frame=000000 sector=00000000
INFO: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000000 sector=00000000
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=41837 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 181410 frame=000008 sector=00000224
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 2931 frame=000014 sector=00000004
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=85869 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000012 sector=00000522
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000021 sector=00000006
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1276635 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 181511 frame=000351 sector=00003573
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 3143 frame=000585 sector=00000167
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1320521 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000356 sector=00003871
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000592 sector=00000169
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1364553 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000361 sector=00004168
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000603 sector=00000172
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1408438 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000364 sector=00004467
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000606 sector=00000173
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1452324 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000368 sector=00004765
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000613 sector=00000175
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1496356 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000372 sector=00005063
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000620 sector=00000177
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1540388 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000384 sector=00005357
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000641 sector=00000183
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1584566 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000406 sector=00005647
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000676 sector=00000193
++ WARN: [???] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=1628598 required(DTS)=0
++ WARN: [???] Video e0: buf= 235543 frame=000428 sector=00005936
++ WARN: [???] Audio c0: buf= 4096 frame=000715 sector=00000204
**ERROR: [???] Too many frame drops -exiting

dragongodz

28th June 2004, 13:34

sorry i am away for another week yet. just had time to quickly pop in.

shubin - can you try turning off auto max bitrate and set the max yourself and see if that makes any difference ?
also you could try forcing closed GOPs and see how that does.

Shubin

29th June 2004, 11:10

Originally posted by dragongodz
sorry i am away for another week yet. just had time to quickly pop in.

shubin - can you try turning off auto max bitrate and set the max yourself and see if that makes any difference ?
also you could try forcing closed GOPs and see how that does.

Yes, I'll do it ASAP. However I'm almost sure that the problem is in
the uniform black color or the scene.
Literally :

blackness(clip).converttoyuy2()
subtitle("bla-bla"...
converttoyv12(true)

I tried TMPGENC on the same .avs file and got m2v that did not play
on desktop player correctly. I had to write noise adding filter
that helped to deal with the problem.
Older versions of XVid had this problem too, but now it's gone.
I'll also try QuEnc with noise added.

Shubin

30th June 2004, 06:50

I've tested an improved version of .avs (noise added) that
does not confuse TMPGEnc, with closed GOPs and max bitrate=8000
(bitrate=7000).

The same result.

Film looks like this : VERY noisy (originally noisy) video,
fade into black, few changing titles on black, fade-in
back to video.
Video stops somewhere after the black part.

dragongodz

6th July 2004, 06:41

ok something for you guys to test and REPORT YOUR FINDINGS on. :)

before downloading though understand these things.

1. this is my test build and not Nics so do NOT blame him for any problems with it.
2. this is a TEST version so may contain problems that Nics 0.51 didnt.
3. CBR is still no good and has already been said the rate control of libavcodec needs rerwriting to fix that.
4. i am releasing this so people can test out changes and report the good aswell as the bad. if nobody reports anything then why should i bother to release a test ?

ok now on to the subject of this.

QuEnc 0.51 D1 test build.

changes include
.different settings for varied frame size/bitrate.
.change to rate control settings to try and reduce bitrate spikes.
.new custom quant(still called notch in the gui for compatability and testing) which should work with trellis. meaning no more of those artifacts.

you can download it from here
http://pcpages.com/dragongodz2/

there is a limited amount of downloads per month being a free page so any mirrors would be appreciated.