VP6.2 Release

[On2Tech]

We have just released an updated version of the VP6 encoder. This version addresses a few issues that were brought to us by some posters on this board. The main issue addressed -> Sharpness.

You can download the update at:

http://www.on2.com

This new version has been beta-tested by a number of guys who regularly post on this forum. They've helped us to make big improvements to the sharpness and to the usability of the codec. Thanks.

Here are the release notes for the new codec:

Version 6.2.0.10 02/17/2004
=======================================
- Support for VP6.2 which provides the ability to produce much sharper output files than vp6.1
- Uses bitrate inside vp6 config dialog windows
- Uses keyframe frequency control inside VP6 dialog only
- Added remove 2nd pass file after use check box
- Added sharpness slider.
- Fixed problem with 2 pass datarate control with high datarates > 10 megabits per second
- Improved frame quality consistency
- Fixed default for best PSNR to use deblocker and not deringer
- Added connection to control panel dialog for controling post processing
- Improved two-pass streaming

[Sharktooth]

Great! Really nice release.

[Sirber]

Great!

Is the bitrate in registry also? I might develop a soft which use VP6 as main video encoder. It's a webcam surveillance software with advanced features.

[slavickas]

So vp62 is new profile? Can nullsoft/aol licensed codec decode it, or there are some incompatibilities with prior profiles?

[virus]

oh my god! after a couple of clips, looks like the 1024 thingie has made it to the final release...! :(
well, ok, let's add a suggestion for everyone:

WARNING: this version of VP6 assumes 1 kilobit/sec = 1024 bit/sec! (and not 1000) Divide your bitrate accordingly or you'll end up with a 2.4% oversize bias in every video you encode.

hope this helps :)
virus

[CruNcher]

@ On2Tech
Nice but the comparsion on On2.com is not up2date anymore RV10 Elysian has the option to chose inloop filtering @ encode now so the results should be more detailed now not as blurry as those shown on On2.com funny that this update and Reals update where on the same Day hehe ;)

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by Sirber
Great!

Is the bitrate in registry also? I might develop a soft which use VP6 as main video encoder. It's a webcam surveillance software with advanced features.

All of the settings including bitrate are in the registry in a binary field called bsettings. I'll try and post the structure format tomorrow ( when I have the code in front of me)..

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by slavickas
So vp62 is new profile? Can nullsoft/aol licensed codec decode it, or there are some incompatibilities with prior profiles?

I believe the answer is not yet. We have yet to give them the updated source code. The changes were bitstream changes.

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by virus
oh my god! after a couple of clips, looks like the 1024 thingie has made it to the final release...! :(
well, ok, let's add a suggestion for everyone:

WARNING: this version of VP6 assumes 1 kilobit/sec = 1024 bit/sec! (and not 1000) Divide your bitrate accordingly or you'll end up with a 2.4% oversize bias in every video you encode.

hope this helps :)
virus

Still is 1024. Maybe the next version.. :) Thanks for all the beta testing.

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by CruNcher
@ On2Tech
Nice but the comparsion on On2.com is not up2date anymore RV10 Elysian has the option to chose inloop filtering @ encode now so the results should be more detailed now not as blurry as those shown on On2.com funny that this update and Reals update where on the same Day hehe ;)

Just a coincidence I'm afraid. As some of the guys on this board can attest we've been getting our codec ready for release for a couple of weeks now.

[slavickas]

If not secret how keyframes are marked in bitstream?
first frame seems to begin with 78460F14h other keyframes seems like EC400000h but what's actually correct?

[virus]

Originally posted by On2Tech
Just a coincidence I'm afraid. As some of the guys on this board can attest we've been getting our codec ready for release for a couple of weeks now.
Confirmed ;)
The amount of changes from 6.1.x to 6.2.x is big, you surely worked a lot on that. Plans for the future? You talked about a speedup for the 1st pass... will it have some impact on quality?

BTW: another suggestion to everyone from my tests... try Sharpness set to 7, it worked like a charm for me, even in clips where the old VP61 blurred things a lot.

cheers :)
virus

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by On2Tech
Still is 1024. Maybe the next version.. :) Thanks for all the beta testing. Why bother.... Just make the selection use 'kbps' instead ;)

Very nice build

Cheers

[C0mPr355]

is it possible to get a sticky of this post? So we can keep all the feedback within one post rather than branch it off to somewhere else?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by C0mPr355
is it possible to get a sticky of this post? So we can keep all the feedback within one post rather than branch it off to somewhere else? Yep, I like this idea.

It might be useful to make an individual sticky for each new codec, as they come along (ie one for NeroDigital, WMV9 etc). In much the same way we have for Real Video!

Cheers

[Sirber]

RealVideo and VP6 would be enough. Microsoft should pay doom9 to get his codec sticky :D

[bond]

everyone who knows me, knows that i am not really a friend of discussion stickies
stickies should be faq-like style, it doesnt make any sense to sticky a thread where people have to search for info in some post on page 5 or so anyways
stickies should be a point offering and summarizing answers to the most important issues, you can look at if you want to know something, without needing to use search

well and i dont see the problem that there are too many feedback threads about vp6 around anyways...
in fact if some should open a new one it will be no hassle to merge it in this thread

doom9 is a petty good example where discussions about 1 tool/codec or whatever are kept together in one thread, without a mess and without needing a sticky (simply look at the ffdshow thread as an example)

[SeeMoreDigital]

I must admit I don't like stickies either - you only have to look at the DivX section for an example of 'sticky abuse'!

That said, they do have there place and I think it would be a good idea for each new codec in this section of the forum to have it's own sticky.

Obviously, such a sticky should not be allowed to become bogged down/filled with general discussions and comments about the codec.

In my opinion such a sticky should be used for general announcements (ie new releases) about the codec, FAQ's and the like.

Anybody else have any ideas?

Cheers

[veryhappyjk]

I'm a one-pass VP6 fan :) though I see On2 is really making a mess with it. :(

Yesterday I tried the last version, and found that Bitrate option influences bitrate one-pass VBR encoding. :confused:

What does it mean? Shouldn't quantizer and sharpness the only compression-factors?

I think On2 is making a great work but...

please

fix one-pass VBR!!


Byebye Saverio M.

[bond]

as promised i merged veryhappyjk's post to the main thread

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by veryhappyjk
I'm a one-pass VP6 fan :) though I see On2 is really making a mess with it. :(

Yesterday I tried the last version, and found that Bitrate option influences bitrate one-pass VBR encoding. :confused:

What does it mean? Shouldn't quantizer and sharpness the only compression-factors?

I think On2 is making a great work but...

please

fix one-pass VBR!!


Byebye Saverio M.

I'm sorry its confusing. To us VBR didn't necessarily mean fixed quantizer but if that's what you want you can get the codec to do use a fixed quantizer by going to the advanced tab and unchecking adjust quantizer. Then the codec should use the max quantizer as its " fixed " quantizer. Please let me know if that's what you wanted.

Incidentally, to us VBR meant produce a file that over the entire length of the movie averages the bitrate specified. That means we don't have to worry about local streaming constraints like does a hard section empty a theoretical playback buffer ( since we should be able to account for this later), just that by the time we get to the end of the file we've hit the overall average datarate requested.

[dimzon]

@On2Tech

does On2 plan to make VP6.2 DECODER open-source?

[On2Tech]

We don't have any plans for making the VP6 decoder open source at this time. We do offer source code licensing for our partner companies though.

[kilg0r3]

Is it possible to create mpeg4 compliant streams with on2 that can be played back by standalones?

[stevenxu]

Originally posted by kilg0r3
Is it possible to create mpeg4 compliant streams with on2 that can be played back by standalones?

No! VP6 is not an MPEG4 codec. Chinese EVD standalone player will use VP6 for video encoding, but I don't know if it can play VP6-encoded AVI file.

[dimzon]

Originally posted by On2Tech
We don't have any plans for making the VP6 decoder open source at this time.
It's not good. Since new HW/SW platforms coming only open-source decoder can give a measure of hope that my DVD-Rip's may be playable in the future...

[Sirber]

IIRC WMV9WMA is not opensource and it's supported by some HW player...

[Sigmatador]

@On2Tech

Is there any plan about a decoder lib for UNIX system?

[On2Tech]

re: Linux

We're kicking around a number of PC/non-Windows decoder ideas, but haven't made any commitments yet. Please stay tuned.

[Sirber]

Staying tuned while waiting ;)

[On2Tech]

Originally posted by dimzon
It's not good. Since new HW/SW platforms coming only open-source decoder can give a measure of hope that my DVD-Rip's may be playable in the future...

Literally going "Open Source" is a rather specific issue which to us usually implies a free license grant of intellectual property (think GPL). We have done that with VP3, which is completely open and unencumbered. Regarding our newer codecs, we offer source code and IP licensing, and we try to be as supportive as we can be of companies wishing to utilize VP6 in their own hardware/software.

[momentum]

I tried VP6 on VDM encoding Harrypoter HD movie clip. I wanted to select two pass best quality option, but couldnt as it asks me to put the first and second pass profile. Where is it? What is it? Where can I get it? So I had to choose one pass best quality mode. The result, disappointing. Poor and blured image. WMV is much much better than VP6, at least with one pass mode. Could you let me know how to set the pass setting, and where I can get the pass profile?



Thanks

[h9903209]

oh, that's the same case with me, I originally thought it's only my computer problem again: I see Sagittaire's test and then try vp6, I only use 1-pass, and assuming that 1-pass would be similar result as Sagittaire's 2-pass test, but I always get poor results after trying many settings, much worse comparing to rv10 1-pass, exactly as you describe: blurry, so I give up using vp6... seems 2-pass good result does not necessarily mean 1-pass good result...

[On2Tech]

Everything necessary for 2 pass encoding is included in the regular install of the VP6 codec. I'm afraid I don't know what might be causing your install to lose that information, but we'll look into it.

Regarding 1 pass vs 2 pass, 1 pass can certainly be tricky because it is a balancing act of quality vs bitrate vs smoothness of transmission, etc. Unless you are using the min-max Quantizers to set a fixed quality, the encoder is going to do its best, varying the quantizers to keep the bitrate generally smooth. Rather than adjusting frame quality over a qider range, some other encoders default to allowing dropped frames, so that the results may appear sharper, so you may want to allow that in your encodings if you feel the video is too soft, and don't mind some compromise in frame rate.

To make a long story short, one pass encoding is more suited to streaming at a fixed bitrate, but offers a lot of "tweakability" to get good results for other applications as well. 2 pass is far more "set it and forget it" when you want to get the best results in a fixed amount of space.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by On2Tech
Everything necessary for 2 pass encoding is included in the regular install of the VP6 codec. I'm afraid I don't know what might be causing your install to lose that information, but we'll look into it.

Regarding 1 pass vs 2 pass, 1 pass can certainly be tricky because it is a balancing act of quality vs bitrate vs smoothness of transmission, etc. Unless you are using the min-max Quantizers to set a fixed quality, the encoder is going to do its best, varying the quantizers to keep the bitrate generally smooth. Rather than adjusting frame quality over a qider range, some other encoders default to allowing dropped frames, so that the results may appear sharper, so you may want to allow that in your encodings if you feel the video is too soft, and don't mind some compromise in frame rate.

To make a long story short, one pass encoding is more suited to streaming at a fixed bitrate, but offers a lot of "tweakability" to get good results for other applications as well. 2 pass is far more "set it and forget it" when you want to get the best results in a fixed amount of space.

In my humble opinion, the above information is a perfect example of why we need a VP6 sticky - along with 3viX, WMV9 and NeroDigital stickies :)

I realise such a sticky would not guarantee that every forum users would read it before posting. But at least there would be a 'one set-place' for their queries to be redirected to!

Cheers

[bond]

SMD, as "mpeg-4 addict #2" you should already know how 1pass and 2pass work ;)
its not really different with any implementation offering these modes (ie xvid)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
SMD, as "mpeg-4 addict #2" you should already know how 1pass and 2pass work ;)
its not really different with any implementation offering these modes (ie xvid) True :D

I'm just thinking about all those other 'non 2pass souls' And poor old On2Tech who might have to keep answering the same questions over and over again!

That said, VP6 does indeed generate incredible looking 1pass 720x576 anamorphic encodes at say 500kbps. Which would be great for streaming.

Would be nice to see some anamorphic signalling at some time too!

Cheers

[C0mPr355]

momentum and h99 can you both post an exact replica of the steps you used to create these pass files? And If possible list what your system specs are.

Thanks

[Chez_Wimpy]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

That said, VP6 does indeed generate incredible looking 1pass 720x576 anamorphic encodes at say 500kbps. Which would be great for streaming.

Would be nice to see some anamorphic signalling at some time too!

Cheers

Somewhat curious about doing this myself, but it seems at the present that ffdshow does not decode the stream (no open-source decoder?), hence my inability to use anamorphic in matroska with playback in MPC. Thus my question; for anamorphic VP6, what playback options are currently available?

[slavickas]

Originally posted by Chez_Wimpy
Somewhat curious about doing this myself, but it seems at the present that ffdshow does not decode the stream (no open-source decoder?), hence my inability to use anamorphic in matroska with playback in MPC. Thus my question; for anamorphic VP6, what playback options are currently available?

winamp 5 in nsv :rolleyes:

[Jaques]

Originally posted by Chez_Wimpy
Somewhat curious about doing this myself, but it seems at the present that ffdshow does not decode the stream (no open-source decoder?), hence my inability to use anamorphic in matroska with playback in MPC. Thus my question; for anamorphic VP6, what playback options are currently available?

You could hit Numpad 6 in MPC to change the AR for the file, too probably around 2.35, but it would be nice if mkvmerge would allow you to set the playback resolution for VP6 as it would for xvid.

[vinouz]

or you could choose to set a new "wide" panscan profile, with y zoom set at 0.7500. Usually with pal anamorphic encodes it leads to a little "glitch", which is that 720x576 on a 4/3 screen resolution means the width isn't stretched to the whole screen when the 576 height is set to the whole screen. But when zoomed to .75, Media player classic keeps that same adjustment while the height is not the biggest limiting factor anymore, so after choosing your new "wide" panscan profile, you can press numpad-9 once to set the zoom to the entire screen.

btw : @gabest, it would be great if that was corrected, meaning if the panscan zoom would be set prior to adjusting the frame for being maximized for screen size.

As I read that ffdshow's overlay set the AR accordingly, I tried selecting its use on raw video in the codec settings (for having it after VP6 decoder on the filter graph) and with matroskaprop to set the new anamorphic resolution by hand on the mkv file, but while the ffdshow filter consuming a lot of extra CPU, it doesn't do the job.

So I'd really like too to have AR either correctly handled by MPC for the mkv container or handled natively by ffdshow on raw source or VP6....

to whoever it may concern (Compress, On2Tech, gabest, milan, christianHJW)...

[Chez_Wimpy]

Accepting that anamorphic isn't yet as smooth as with Xvid, I created a mkv using vp6.2 and a vobsub subtitle stream, but with my setup (ffshow and MPC), directvobsubs failed to render. Is this something to do with the overlays since vp6.2 has its own decoder? More importantly, is it possible to get vobsubs working with vp6.2 content?

[Jaques]

try using bsplayer, I had to do this to get the resolution I specified in MMG.exe to display correctly, I guess I should contact gabest about this.

[vinouz]

bsplayer hangs with VP6 mkv on my system. Does it correctly handle AR with mkv and VP6 ?

[Jaques]

Yep. Try the latest version.

[bond]

did everyone try the new sharpnes option? its a nice feature!

[m0rtal]

bond
could you (or maybe, someone else) explain this option?

[bond]

well its a tradeoff between sharpness and blocks

the stronger sharpness option is used the sharper is the picture but the more blocks appear and the other way round
if wisely used (there shouldnt be disturbing blocks) for me it introduces some sort of effect comparable to the hvs_good mpeg-4 matrix

[NuPogodi]

To begin with... The following question was already sent to another forum (Unofficial VDub Forum), but there were no replies. So, please, do not consider my attempt to know what is wrong as an attempt to spam Doom9. Well...

The question is related to a conflict between VP61 and DirectVobSub Filter 2.23 by Gabest (actually, I've tested both VP62 and DVS version 2.32) included in the Matroska Playback Pack.

Once upon a time... I've compressed VP61 video (Advanced Profile), OGG-audio and 3 subtitle streams and mux (by mkvmerge 0.83) all to MKV-container. When I've tried to play this MKV back, I've seen no subtitles. I looked among the filters: DVS was not autoloaded at all (although it loads itself and works properly with any other videostreams such as DivX3-5, XviD, WMV9). Then, I've tested whether DVS works with VP61 and subtitles which are not embedded in MKV (just XXX.AVI and XXX.SRT in the same folder) -- no success. It looks like VP decompressor forcibly blocks DVS...

My questions are:

1. Did anybody observe observe this conflict? (I'm not absolutely sure that it's reproducible).

2. Does anybody know how to fix this problem?

Any ideas/suggestions would be appreciated.

Aleks

PS I almost forget to say another confusing behavior. After all, I've installed another subtitler DivXG400... Well, it works and, moreover, let DVS to autoload and to work. Where is a problem? Unfortunately, DivXG400 can not recognize and can, therefore, not show subtitles embedded in MKV...