Complicated Subtitles

[n1ck0s]

I'm trying to backup Spiderman PAL Special 2Disk Edition. I am usually not interested in keeping extras, but in this case (i am a huge Spiderman comic bood fan) its different.

There are two extra features involving subtitle streams in the first disk

1) In the extras menu there is a "factoids on/off" option. If you select on then instead of regular subtitles, during the movie u see some bits of info (about the movie and the comic book) which look like this

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/n1ck0s/18285/211557/0/Snap2.gif

This subtitles stream has some interesting attributes/difficulties:
-> It uses all four colors
-> It has a fade in / fade out effect. For accomplishing this, each "factoid" is made of several frames instead of one. Each "frame" has a very small duration and different transparency settings. The first frame is almost tranparent, the second a little less and in this way there is the fade effect.

My problems are:
-> Main problem is colors not showing properly. I've tried messing w/ Scenarist settings but w/ no luck (shown in the next snap)
-> I am under the impression that due to really small durations of each frame, subrip can't handle them correclty (not really a problem; just that I loose the fade in / out effects propably because of this)

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/n1ck0s/18285/211558/0/Snap3.gif

2) There is also a "button over video" feature. Four of the extras videos are not shown in the extras menu. Instead, the movie uses a particular subtitle stream (which shows spidermans head flashing) at some points of the movie, and if you click on it (or hit select from the remote), you see an extras video and then return to the movie. I dont really care for these videos but as long as I dont use to strip things off (instead I lower the bitrate as much as I can) and so these videos remain at the final disk, I could give it a try and keep that 'button over video" feature. I know that there is a guide for this but:

The "factoids" subtitles stream produces over 8000 bmps!!! It takes a really long time to import this in Scenarist (over 2 hours) and the encoding/remuxing is really painfull two. Each unsuccessful try I make with different settings means several wasted hours. I am about to read the "button over video guide" but I could use some hints. Of course I am mainly interested in keepeing the first feature I mentioned

tia,
n1ck0s.

[influenza]

The button over video used in spiderman is quite easy. If you read my guide I'm quite sure you can handle it. Those subs are a major PITA, takes really long to load them and the fade in/fade out effect isn't really nice on my standalone.

[n1ck0s]

The button over video used in spiderman is quite easy. If you read my guide I'm quite sure you can handle it. Those subs are a major PITA, takes really long to load them and the fade in/fade out effect isn't really nice on my standalone.

I'll sure do read your guide... So, did you manage to keep those subtitles? Apart from the fade effect (although I would like to know if it can be done and how), I'm mainly interested in keeping the right colors. Any ideas?

P.S. Whats a PITA?

[Matthew]

mmm...this post borders on spam but...

Originally posted by n1ck0s
P.S. Whats a PITA?

Pain In The Arse (or Ass).

[jel]

there were two interesting threads i found on spiderman subpics
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=37074&highlight=animated+subpics and http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=37797&highlight=animated+subpics
Main problem is colors not showing properly.
i am not sure where you were trying to fix this in scenarist but i understand you can adjust the subtitle colours in the 'track editor' by highlighting the appropriate track and substream and in 'tools' or 'settings (i forget which) you can adjust the colours to suit. open up one of your subpics in a picture viewer so you know which colours correspond to the backround, red, blue etc.
Apart from the fade effect (although I would like to know if it can be done and how)
the fade in effect should still be retained, although as influenza mentioned it will not be as smooth as the original. i believe this has something to do with how the subtitles are demuxed - Eyes`Only details the method in one of those threads above - i believe it deselects subs that are too close/overlapping to avoid issues with scenarist. if you were extremely keen you could adjust your fade-in subs so they matched the original (either in the track editor or by editing the .sst file).
hope that helps
j

[RB]

Scenarist, as well as Maestro, can apply fade effects to subtitles. No need for several short subtitles. Just look it up in the online help.

[n1ck0s]

there were two interesting threads i found on spiderman subpics
I was searching for "multicolor subtitles"... I didn't find those, sorry.
the fade in effect should still be retained, although as influenza mentioned it will not be as smooth as the original. i believe this has something to do with how the subtitles are demuxed - Eyes`Only details the method in one of those threads above - i believe it deselects subs that are too close/overlapping to avoid issues with scenarist. if you were extremely keen you could adjust your fade-in subs so they matched the original (either in the track editor or by editing the .sst file).
Is this overlapping issue of SubRip only? I opened the .sst file and the subtitles dont seem to overlap. Does VobSub (which I think is the one DIF4U uses) have the same issue also?
Scenarist, as well as Maestro, can apply fade effects to subtitles. No need for several short subtitles. Just look it up in the online help.
There are too many subtitles (~11.000) to do this manually, although it would be the optimum solution. I'll try to srite a script for the subtitle merge...
and the fade in/fade out effect isn't really nice on my standalone
Because of the overlapping thing? Would it be possible that this issue is solved w/ newest program versions? I just finished encoding and I am about to import in Scenarist. Now that I remember, there was a thread stating that .sst produced by Big3 contained "opacity" values not recognized by Scenarist (e.g. 86 instead of 87). I think thats an issue also. I'll look into it.

Thank you all for your help. i apologize for the long posts.

[jel]

Is this overlapping issue of SubRip only? I opened the .sst file and the subtitles dont seem to overlap. Does VobSub (which I think is the one DIF4U uses) have the same issue also? neither application has an issue with this (as far as i am aware), i was only pointing out why the fade in affect wont be as smooth as the original.
you can of course do as RB suggested and adjust your sst file, or delete the existing subs in scenarist that are the fade in/fade out part of your ripped subs (this will 'at a guess' reduce your number of subs to around 300+) and use the built in effects for scenarist to apply a fade in/fade out to the remaining subs.
"opacity" values not recognized by Scenarist (e.g. 86 instead of 87). i think this is the thread you are referring to.FYI: ReAuthorist/Scenarist Subtitle Transparency/Contrast Tidbit (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56960&highlight=kedirekin) and it should only be an issue if when you preview the subs in the simulation window, the opacity of the subs (every time this happened to me i couldnt see the subs at all) differs from the original. colours are a different matter again.
hope that helps
j

[RB]

Originally posted by n1ck0s
There are too many subtitles (~11.000) to do this manually, although it would be the optimum solution. I'll try to srite a script for the subtitle merge...

OK, just for the fun of it I wrote a batch file that will add a fade-in/fade-out effect to selected subtitles in an exported Scenarist script:

FadeScp (http://home.t-online.de/home/340044300675/fadescp.zip)

Export the project to script and then run
fadescp script.scp subnames [-in fadein] [-out fadeout]Remember to put quotes around parameters that have spaces. For examplefadescp script.scp VTS_01_PGC_01_ID00 -in 500 -out 500processes all subpictures named *VTS_01_PGC_01_ID00* in script.scp, applies fade-in and fade-out of 500 ms each and writes new script file script_faded.scp along with logfile script_faded.log. Import the new script into Scenarist.

Because it's a batch file it's slow as hell (I mean, really) and for thousands of subtitles, it will hog your CPU for several hours LOL :D, best have it run over night. Note, each subtitle color should be mapped to a different color.

As for the wrong colors you are seeing, just make sure the subs look OK in Scenarist and then in IFOUpdate, check "Copy Color Table in each PGC".

And BTW, the fade effects do not split the actual subtitles into several small ones with different contrast when authoring. So your 11.000 subs are for real and you must not delete any.

[n1ck0s]

And BTW, the fade effects do not split the actual subtitles into several small ones with different contrast when authoring. So your 11.000 subs are for real and you must not delete any.

I'm certain about what I stated above. Each "factoid" appears in 21 .bmps (e.g. *1.bmp through *21.bmp are identical). 10 for fade-in, 1 w/ full opacity, 10 for fade-out. I think that the fade effect is of course supported by Scenarist but it has to be simulated in the vob file. When scenarist, re-muxes produces several identical "frames" w/ different contrast values to produce this effect (thats the conclusion I made, I am not a DVD expert :). Reauthorist of course cannot regenerate the fade effects from the .sst files and treats each "frame" seperately.

During several tests I did the following:
- I discarded the "frames" involved in fade effects from the .sst file (where contrast was different than (15 10 0 10)) keeping only frames w/ "full" opacity (messing with the .scp file was harder) then used Reauthorist again. Now my subtitles are reduced to ~530 which sounds very reasonable (there couldn't be 11.000 "factoids", its too much)
- I tried adding manually fade effects in Scenarist but although I finally did it, I realised that its too time consuming.

So your script comes at the right time. Its exactly wat I needed and I am about to use it. thx.

P.S.1 » Imaging a newbie (me) trying to figure out how to apply fades, correct colors, change subtitle durations and what the hell the "stops" are for (they caused me many troubles). It took me only 4 hours, so Im very happy w/ myself :)

P.S.2 » I tend to think that Reauthorist has some issues w/ handling .sst files. I tried deleting subtitle streams and importing them manually from the .sst files and my "color" problems were gone (I did find a way to correct it w/ Scenarist of course, thx to jel). I hope deleting and re-importing doesn't mess w/ the dvd structure.

P.S.3 » OFF TOPIC changing "extras encoding passes" from 5 to 7 had a great dirrerence. 5 passes result was harldy acceptable, were 7 passes product was excellent.

Thank you all for your help. I am very close to reproduce this "factoids" thing.
n1ck0s.

[n1ck0s]

I tried importing manually the .sst file. Results are:

» The stream above (20) is the one generated by Reauthorist's .scp script file
» The stream below (21) is the one after importing the .sst file manually.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/n1ck0s/18285/212606/0/Snap1.gif"Snap from the Track Editor. Each of the blocks above implement a single factoid w/ its fade-in and out"

What is shown in the image is the problem with the subtitles duration. What is not shown is that colors (and contrast) are messed up in stream 20. Colors and contrast settings in stream 21 are *almost* perfect (see NOTE)

The only thing remaining is the "*.forced.sst" file. What should I do with that? Is it needed? I opened it and realised that it refers to "blank" subtitles (.bmps w/ just a tiny red spot in the middle) and the "times" match the ones from the subtitle stream #1, which is the stream with the "button over video" feature. Should I just ignore the "*.forced.sst" file? Are these files ignored by Reauthorist too?

NOTE: for some reason, the .sst file import *almost* did the trick, as a stupid brown-ish (sorry, I don't talk England very best ;) ) color (#15) was shown instead of red (#2). I fixed that w/ a simple find ("Color (15 3 3 1)") and replace ('Color (2 3 3 1)") operation in the .sst file.

n1ck0s.

[influenza]

I'm afraid those forced subs are necessary. Buttons need to be forced (let me rephrase: the subs used for buttons need to be forced). The empty subs are dummies. The forced subs/buttons need to be present in all streams, that's why those dummies are used.

[n1ck0s]

What should I do then? Import the .forced.sst file in the same stream?

I just saw the "dummy" .bmps are also present at the "*.sst" file. What do I do w/ "*.forced.sst"?

.sst
...
1274 00:09:32:16 00:09:33:15 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English_1274.bmp
1275 00:09:33:16 00:09:34:02 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English_1275.bmp
1276 00:09:34:03 00:09:37:15 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English_1276.bmp
1277 00:09:37:16 00:09:37:21 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English_1277.bmp
...

.forced.sst
...
0001 00:09:32:16 00:09:33:15 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English.forced_1274.bmp
0002 00:09:33:16 00:09:34:02 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English.forced_1275.bmp
0003 00:09:34:03 00:09:37:15 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English.forced_1276.bmp
0004 00:09:37:16 00:09:37:21 VTS_01_VSUB_P1A1-19-English.forced_1277.bmp
...

[influenza]

RA does it for you, but if you want to do it manually import the forced stream into an empty stream. Then manually adjust all the subs (set them to forced). You can easily spot them, match them to your extra imported stream. After finishing delete the stream with only forced subs.

[n1ck0s]

I cant thank you enough.
n1ck0s.

[RB]

Originally posted by n1ck0s
I'm certain about what I stated above. Each "factoid" appears in 21 .bmps (e.g. *1.bmp through *21.bmp are identical). 10 for fade-in, 1 w/ full opacity, 10 for fade-out. I think that the fade effect is of course supported by Scenarist but it has to be simulated in the vob file. When scenarist, re-muxes produces several identical "frames" w/ different contrast values to produce this effect (thats the conclusion I made, I am not a DVD expert :).

Well, Scenarist definitely does not produce several subpictures to get the fade effect. Checked this. Used my batch to add fades to a test project, authored and extracted the subtitles again with VSRip. The .SST was identical to the script I imported the subtitles from, no additional subpictures generated. That's BTW how the "MI6 stream" subtitles in "Die Another Day" work too, "factoid"-like subs with fade effect, but it's only a single BMP for each.

Looks like the authoring system used for Spider Man was less advanced than Scenarist :D

[n1ck0s]

Although I am not going to use your script to this project (as it seems), I really love it. I am a script junkie, and I didn't know you could write such "advanced" batch files / scripts in NT systems.

Thanks for your help,
n1ck0s.

[influenza]

RB: you surely come up with usefull apps ;)

A comment on the MI6 thing in die an other day. After demuxing it I also ended up with several subs for the fading subs. You didn't have this?

[influenza]

And since you seam so handy maybe I can ask for a (big) favor?

I demuxed a infinifilm title (and in fact this also happens on some BOV titles as well). I ended up with several subs for the buttons. One real button sub of the correct duration and several subs that are just 15 frames in duration. I'm looking for a fast and reliable way to get rid of those 15 frame subs in my sst.

You wouldn't no by any chance a good script for that do you? ;)

[RB]

Originally posted by influenza
A comment on the MI6 thing in die an other day. After demuxing it I also ended up with several subs for the fading subs. You didn't have this?
Right. German R2 PAL release and there was definitely only one .BMP for each MI6 subtitle (ripped with VsRip 1.0.0.6 and VsConv 1.0.0.6).

I'm looking for a fast and reliable way to get rid of those 15 frame subs in my sst.
OK, looks like I have nothing better to do tonight :D, so here is sstclean.cmd (attachment this time). Your homework now is to validate the attachment and learn some NT batch programming :p ... just kidding, glad to help, batch writing can be fun :)

[influenza]

I made it my homework to validate your attachment ;).

Thanks a lot RB! I wouldnn't mind learning about it anyway, do you have some good recommendations?

[RB]

Simply typing 'if /?', 'for /?', 'call /?' and 'set /?' in a command shell is a good start. Also the command line tools reference in Windows help is useful.

[influenza]

I'll give it a try tonite.

To get back to the original subject: did you manually demux the subs or used dif4u? Because I quite sure that on all my titles that have a factoid track the subs are demuxed to several seperate subs (in case of fading ones) whenever I use dif4u to demux it.

[RB]

No, didn't use dif4u. Manually using VsRip and VsConv. Strange.

[influenza]

just did that on Charlie's angels 2 but with the same result. Also factoid tracks with fading in subs. after extracting I have 4000+ subs.

Don't know if you did this one by any chance? But I think it's the same as all those other trivia tracks. I really wonder what is causing our difference in results.