Bad attitudes?

[jkwarras]

Hi,

I just wanted to share some thoughts about the doom9 forum with other users. i didn't knew where to post, but i think this is the right place.

I started visiting this site (and forum) about 3 years ago. This has been very helpful for me: this is where I've learn to Rip DVDs, encode it into DiVX, into XviD, learn and use avisynth scripts (for DVD encodings and DV cleaning) and so on. In fact, this is the better forum i've never come to. The value of this forums is obviously the moderators and the users. People are usually kind, helpful, and share her experiences with others. It even help me improve a little my bad english :)

But, in the last year i started to see some behaviours a do not like. If someone asked something quite easy, people will right away answer something like "read the FAQ" "Don't post stupid questions", "Already discussed", blablabla... It's obvious that most of the times newbies don't read FAQs, and don't search, why? The answer is simple, when you where new to this "encoding world" did you read ALL the FAQ? Did you search correctly? or better, did you know where to search? Most of the times you never understood all this FAQ, because this was related to something you were new to, and most of the terms were just from another world :rolleyes:

At some point (including myself) people around here, that knew more about encoding, forgot they were newbies at a time, and start acting rude to this kind of questions. In fact, this is totally the oposite of what i've experience when i first start posting here. Even if it was a really stupid question, people were kind enough to explain this to me, or point me to some discussions or documents that i can read to learn more.

In fact, more recently (and in some specifics forums) this behaviour starts to be also extended to other users, not only newbies. I'm not saying that acting rude to more experienced users is worst than to newbies, but maybe it can be better understood. If some, even if he knows quite something about the subject, but he's not an expert, posts some questions or arise something he thinks it's important, right away he often get the same kind of answers: "already discussed", "did you search?", and if he respond to that kind of behaviour that treated him like a fool, he often flame discussions and posts. As a matter of fact, this kind of behaviour is "encouraged" by some few moderators. Often users just follow this behaviour. And i have to admit that i also follow this kind of behaviour.

Acting like this will make people will really think twice before posting. This is good if it makes people search what they are looking for, instead of just throwing his question but it's bad if it just makes people fear the answer they will get and lose some future valueable members.

Pointing someone to the right way to search, to read FAQ, to read other discussions, to some documentation, etc... is the good way to go, but you have to stay polite and not treat people as a fool just because what he says doesn't make sens to you.

I just wanted to share this feeling, because this IS the *better* place to discuss about digital video related topics, very valuable people come here everyday, and share IS the best way to learn. Share with people that doesn't know so much as you do, is the right way to get people into what you like. Share with people that has the same knowledge level as you is also gratefull but if you're in an open forum, expect that people who don't know a clue will enter into the discussion. I don't like poeple trated like idiots just because they know less that other people around here. This is not what I get when I get here first. And I have to say that people talk about that in other site forums outside of this one. I don't think doom9 is a PRO forum to experienced people. Someone just correct me if i'm wrong.

Regards.

[KpeX]

:goodpost:

This is a good reminder, jkwarras. It can be very easy to snap at newbies for asking questions that we consider trivial, especially when you've had a long day, don't have much time, etc. However there is really no excuse for being mean to newbies, and your politeness will probably help them turn into a productive forum member in the future.

It never hurts to try to see a situation through someone else's eyes.

[Happygolucky]

I agree. It is too bad that the ones most guilty of committing the offence will most likely not think this applies to them. That is the case in most scenarios, not just here on this forum.

[jggimi]

I've gotta tell you, jkwarras, that after reading your post I did a quick search on your posting history, to see where you've been posting. I was concerned that it might be in forums that I either moderate or spend a lot of time in. And I breathed a sigh of relief to see that most of them are not.

That's because I was concerned that it might be me being discourteous without realizing it.

I will admit, I look at the post count and the membership date before replying to a question; and will adjust the detail of my replies accordingly. That's only fair, I think. I would give a more detailed or complete answer to a recent or low post-count member than I might to someone who has been here longer.

One of the forums that I regularly spend time in is the Newbie forum. Reading and answering those questions helps keep me in tune with the needs of our newer members.

[jkwarras]

I want to make it clear. I'm not saying that all moderators on doom9's forum are rude and or unpolite. The truth is that 90% of them, and in some forums almost 99% they're friendly and point people to their answers in an intelligent way, or at least they try to do so. They do their job, and quite well I would say. The same applies for the users, i would say for a 75% rate.

What I wanted to point out is that this is something is happening, and I don't like it. It's just a trend, and not only to Newbies. As jggimi says, I also quite often look at the numer of posts someone has done. I think is an intelligent way of approach an appropiate answer.

In some specific forums, you can't really say anything without being beaten up with this "you don't know a shit" attitude. Some people will clairly see what I'm talking about. Of course this is much more subtle than that, but you obviously can feel it.

But hopely, this is not the entire case of this forum, and not 100% of the time. But it happens, and we all can without realizing it, be part of it.

I'm quite philosophical today :D

Regards.

[Doom9]

It's obvious that most of the times newbies don't read FAQs, and don't search, why? The answer is simple, when you where new to this "encoding world" did you read ALL the FAQ? Did you search correctly? or better, did you know where to search? Most of the times you never understood all this FAQ, because this was related to something you were new to, and most of the terms were just from another world

I can only speak for myself but the answer is hell yeah, I searched (and experimented) my butt of. I was scared as hell to make my first post in the dvdsoft forum about 4 years ago and I was a lurker for month, trying to put pieces of info together as they came by. Then when I actually posted, I was quite knowledgeable for newbie standards (despite never having successfully converted an entire DVD movie to DivX at that point). And with the Netiquette having been drilled into me when I got my first internet access (those were Netscape 1.0 times) I knew better than not to know how to post before posting. Sadly, today people with that much respect of the Netiquette are hard to find.

I'm all for treating people nicely but they have to be told if they haven't done their homework.

As for searching, I believe that is something that can be learned. In school and now at work I often have to dig into completely new subjects and I do a lot of my research online and use online resources like forums and newsgroups excessively. Yet, I wouldn't dare to post a single question if I haven't spend some serious time looking for the answers. I know it takes time, but I also know how established people feel when somebody barges in with obvious questions. You can't always avoid it, but it's the will to try and avoid it to the best of your ability that counts. If that is lacking, I cannot blame people for not being as nice.

[Koepi]

Ah, finally, some post about me again because i posted "read the threads, it's been answered hundreds of times". Fact is, that in the forums I moderate now plenty of the same questions arise. That is bad. It makes the forum useless - we want to advance, develop, make progress - not just answer "yes, your image gets flipped when you use dvobsub" or "oh, you use vdubmod 15.1.0? use 1.5.4.".

Noone except for newbies would then come here and just ask trivial stuff which gets answered very easy if you at least read up a little on the threads you're posting to(!), or search.

I admit i'm a little tired of all that newbie posts currently. Most of the posts show that the people just head over here, fast looking for an answer - and what's easier than posting the question?

That's "social vampirism" - let others do the work for oneself.

I don't like that attitude, and I want that point to come across clear.

But yes, we could answer all the stuff over and over again, how polite. You know why the vcdhelp forums went down/are crappy as hell? Just read around a little - you'll find not much useful. Always the same questions, the same answers.

If you consider keeping a minimum standard mean and unpolite, be it so. I don't intend to become "social vampire's slave".

Koepi

[alexnoe]

What makes you believe that everything is about you? If someone had complained about people dreaming of spam even when there is none, I would have agreed... :angry: :scared:

[Koepi]

I assume it is about me because i gave a very short answer like "read the forum and search" to a post of him.

If you could explain the second sentence of your post I would be grateful, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Koepi

[bond]

i think its important to see that the guides and faqs are exactly written to help newbies finding the answers they need (more advanced users will not need them anymore anyways most of the time)

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by Koepi
Ah, finally, some post about me again because i posted "read the threads, it's been answered hundreds of times".

This is not about you. At least, not only about you. And this is not about me, I'm not complaining about anything, we're all adults here and free to answer anyone in the way we want. I was just talking about a general trend both for users and moderators. We're all in the same basket.

But yes, I have to say that XviD forum (that you moderated) is having lately this attitude I'm talking about. Both users (and I'm part of it) and XviD moderators (sometimes and some of them). An example, if you open a thread for a beta build of XviD, expect that people will come up and post the problems they're having with it, whatever they're right or not. Why? Because it's an open discussion and an open forum. You don't want people to post silly questions and wrong thoughts? Just close your discussion to public.

[Fact is, that in the forums I moderate now plenty of the same questions arise. That is bad. It makes the forum useless - we want to advance, develop, make progress - not just answer "yes, your image gets flipped when you use dvobsub" or "oh, you use vdubmod 15.1.0? use 1.5.4.".

Useless? What¡s useless? Maybe it's useless for you, but it's too subjective. Maybe for me something it's trivial and ridiculous, but the same thing means a lot for you.

But you got a point. It's bad to have the same questions all over and over again. And yes, quite often people just come here to get a quick answer without taking the time to search, read and try to find out for themself. In fact, I don't think this is bad, it's just annoying. And we have to deal with it, we can't expect that new users are all experienced people, some will be, some will not. But they all deserves respect if they treate you with respect. If they come with a question that's more an order than a request (something like "I want a guide for this and that. Can some one write it?"), then it's fair to answer in the same way: "Do it yourself".

and what's easier than posting the question?

Answer a "Read the FAQ and search" :)

That's "social vampirism" - let others do the work for oneself.

Like in any place, some people will just "suck" your knowledge, but some others will just want to learn. People learn in many different ways, don't expect them to act like you would do.

But yes, we could answer all the stuff over and over again, how polite.

If you consider keeping a minimum standard mean and unpolite, be it so. I don't intend to become "social vampire's slave".

As a regular user I don't expect a moderator to answer me something. Moderators are just that: moderators. They don't owe me anything. I expect users to do that if they find it interesting, or simply if they have the time and the will to do so. If a moderator want to do it, so be it. I will be glad ot hear it.

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by Koepi
I assume it is about me because i gave a very short answer like "read the forum and search" to a post of him.


I can handle more than that, belive me :D It's not related to that.

[pepipocpoc]

As far as I can do it, when writing a "you should you search" reply, I usually give some clues...

Jkwarras, I think you are mostly right. But not entierely. Did it dawned to you that sometime, "newbies" were "rude" too? I mean, when nicely helped by some (senior)members I know (I don't want to embarass them) who wrote many many times the same replies again and again, some newbies (thanks gods, not all of them ; and it's absolutely not a newb specificity) won't take the time to write a quick thank, or even feedback... Maybe this kind of behaviour is linked with what you pointed. And I think both attitudes are "rude" and sad, and, Koepi, none make the fori go ahead, advance, develop, make progress, whatever you want.

As a PS, I'd like to say "rude" may not be the right word (too strong), but my vocabular don't let me find a better word. Sorry.

And many thanks to all members who replied, helped, thanked.

:D 10x.


Today approximate translation (that's for you, jkwarras, guess ;) ) :

I ask myself many questions. But, strictly speaking, this is silly. If I was able to answer, I wouldn't have to wonder.

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by pepipocpoc

Jkwarras, I think you are mostly right. But not entierely. Did it dawned to you that sometime, "newbies" were "rude" too? I mean, when nicely helped by some (senior)members I know (I don't want to embarass them) who wrote many many times the same replies again and again, some newbies (thanks gods, not all of them ; and it's absolutely not a newb specificity) won't take the time to write a quick thank, or even feedback...


Sure. This has a lot to do with that attitude. But not all users (because it's not only a matter of being a newbie) are unpolite, and don't says thanks to the person that brings the answer. If you're unpolite no matter if you're a newbie or a regular user. That's fair to treat you in the same way.

As a PS, I'd like to say "rude" may not be the right word (too strong), but my vocabular don't let me find a better word. Sorry.

That's the same for me, maybe "rude" isn't the best word. But it's really hard to explain myself clearly in english what I have in mind.

Today approximate translation (that's for you, jkwarras, guess ;) ) :

I ask myself many questions. But, strictly speaking, this is silly. If I was able to answer, I wouldn't have to wonder.

Sure :) If I could answer myself, why should I post them? :p

[mf]

I usually search quickly for a thread, then post it using the [url=] tag, explaining that search would've gotten that result. When people tell newbies to search, the response is usually that they have searched but couldn't find the answer. The problem here is search term formulation, so I also post the terms I searched for. This really helps, though I only do it if I'm in a friendly mood (actually, I think I've also done it when I got sick & tired of reading yet another unresearched question, but that was to make my point come over more strongly).

I think another problem is that Doom9's guides are getting outdated. I was helping a newbie recently (a fansubber who had never encoded before), and I found that there isn't that much information. On muxing and demuxing etc is only a VirtualDub guide that describes an old version, even though it's been improved since and people nowadays have a tendency towards using Vdubmod instead. This is not criticism against Doom9, but more of an explanation of a possible problem. XviD guides are both based on Gordian Knot, which is fine for newbie DVD conversion, but not for much more than that. When I look at that choice I think to myself "where has the time gone that there were 4 different guides for the same conversion, the steps of which you could combine to your own taste". I remember my first DVD rip to be a combination of the FlaskMPEG guide (I didn't have much diskspace so I preferred something that could rip directly off the DVD), the frameserving guide (of course I wanted to use Nandub to encode, so I had to frameserve from XMPEG), the Nandub guide (final step that described the settings only, I also used another tweaking reference to kind of weigh each setting, eventually I came out with totally different settings than both guides prescribed :D), and the BeSweet guide. I (and people I show it to) still consider it to be something totally not of newbie-quality. Though essentially, that was what I was. The more info out there, the less later found to be embarrasing questions we need to ask (the whole ASF issue was never really documented, though I was interested in the format, which lead to a conversation between me and phaeron that made me look very stupid).

As jkwarras mentioned, the mass body of the A/V community has learned what there is to learn, and doesn't put much information out. All explanations use advanced terms like quantizer, yv12, rate-control, bicubic, lanczos, dotcrawl, rainbows, ringing, ME, MC, etc, that would make any newbie's head spin. I believe Doom9 has a fairly detailed glossary for these terms, but still, the learning curve has become really steep. Combine that with a constantly growing interest in A/V and experienced users that are becoming tired of repeating themselves, and you get a lot of aggravation over the phenomenon that is newbies.

[jonny]

IMO, perhaps a series of guides with a mid-level approch could be useful (i think that people needs more explanations instead of steps in order to reach the solution).
The current tendency is to drive people to allinone solutions, newbies are totally lost when something wrong happen, because they know nothing about the internal process and they don't know how to use the single applications alone.

My sentences doesn't apply to the entire site, but i think that something in this direction could help

I remember me when i've started: i was using a guide with GKnot + manually twick the avisynth script + encoding/muxing manually with VDub.
I've understood only later that the suggested settings wasn't optimal (but i've learned how to change stuffs too)

[pepipocpoc]

@mf

You talk about mood. Quite right ; but if one isn't in a good mood, maybe one should leave his computer and go for a walk or something.
I'm going for one before night falls.
Cheers.

PS - YOU could be called locacious volubilis :D .

@jkwarras

NOW, I can say I fully agree with you.
About rudeness, I've just re-checked my dictionnary. I thought rude meant using bad words. Wrong was I! In fact, it is exactly like "rude" in french :) .
Cheers.

PS - Did you guessed who wrote my little aphorism?

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by pepipocpoc
PS - Did you guessed who wrote my little aphorism?

Sorry, but no. Who wrote this? :rolleyes:

[pepipocpoc]

Woops. The famous Doctor G, Philippe Geluk...

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by pepipocpoc
Woops. The famous Doctor G, Philippe Geluk...

Ups! In fact I'm spanish, but I live in Belgium, this explain why I don't know very well "Le Chat" :)

[KpeX]

Regarding Doom9's guides, I don't think every guide needs to be absolutely up to date - the guides are more about understanding the process rather than using the most recent tools. And the guides are very well updated considering - the appearance of XviD 1.0 guides, Recode 2 guides, and DVDShrink 3 guides very shortly after the appearance of these products comes to mind.

And as far as moderators go - it's very hard to walk the line between keeping the forum discussion professional and being unkind/mean to newbs. No moderator or admin wants his forum to turn into one of the many crap forums out there stuffed with basic questions or downloaded movie assistance. And that's why we have moderators, to enforce the rules and keep the forums professional.

This is _the_ professional video forum, and if a moderator is perceived as snapping once in a while, he/she's probably just trying to keep it that way.

[pepipocpoc]

Hi, KpeX.

I sure can't speak for jkwarras, but I guess he will agree (correct me if I'm wrong). As far as I am concerned, this thread is not much about moderators being rude to newbies, but more about members being rude to each other. Until someone strongly disagree with someone else posting, there is no need to be rude at once ; if one don't want to spend time to help, why spending time answering at all? AND I too strongly reprobate members who think their time too much valuable to write any feedback when answered...

@jkwarras

you may be spanish, if you live in Belgium, you may understand french (at least 3 languages? Mmh, good enough :) ). So, if you like humor, puns, nonsense, cheap philosophy, aphorism, cinysm, truisms and so on (so much approximate translations...), give "el gato" a try. I like it :D !

By the way, feliz y prosper ano nuevo (sorry I can't find the tilde...)

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by pepipocpoc
I sure can't speak for jkwarras, but I guess he will agree (correct me if I'm wrong). As far as I am concerned, this thread is not much about moderators being rude to newbies, but more about members being rude to each other. Until someone strongly disagree with someone else posting, there is no need to be rude at once ; if one don't want to spend time to help, why spending time answering at all? AND I too strongly reprobate members who think their time too much valuable to write any feedback when answered...

That's in fact what I was talking about. Not specifically about newbies (that of course get sometimes the worst part of members/moderators) and not specifically about moderators. I only wanted to point out something *I* found annoying and that *I* don't like. As you said, if you don't feel like answering somethign today, do it tomorrow, or simply don't do it at all, whatever you're a regular member, a newbie or a moderator.

I hope I've made myself clear that this is not specific to anyone (moderator/member, etc..) but a feeling that I have. Just wanted to throw this in the air and see what people think, and I'm happy that this starts a good discussion and make people think. I'm guilty as everyone here, because I'm part of this community for a long time now (even if I registered almost a year ago, i'm browsning this forum since the begining). It's always good to think about why we come here everyday.

you may be spanish, if you live in Belgium, you may understand french (at least 3 languages? Mmh, good enough :) ). So, if you like humor, puns, nonsense, cheap philosophy, aphorism, cinysm, truisms and so on (so much approximate translations...), give "el gato" a try. I like it :D !

Spanish, french and english, not neederlands (to difficult for me). I would give a try to "El gato" :D

By the way, feliz y prosper ano nuevo (sorry I can't find the tilde...)

Bonne année :rolleyes:

[lakedude]

As a sorta nubee I have the same feeling.

Only twice have I ever asked questions by starting a new thread and twice people were rude and told me to search more. If I hadn't searched I would have apologized but both times I spent hours looking and searching and finally do to bad luck ended up asking simple questions that should have been easy to answer and both times I was treated rudely.

I've been coding movies to mpeg4 since a 600Mhz was the fastest thing out there. After trying a bunch of different programs I settled in on Fair Use because it was easy to use and always worked. I suspect the reason that FU did not get a lot of posts is because it worked so well no one ever needed to ask any questions about it. The new version is even easier to use but it is not so bomb proof as the original, hence the need for some help.

The people around here assume that you have read everything that they have so you must be stupid to ask a simple question that they already know the answer to. My last problem was with ffdshow and the newest xvid. I don't know beans about b frames or packed bitstream. All I know is that ffdshow is showing every other frame black and putting black blocks in the picture. I searched for black blocks and various combinations of xvid and ffdshow and fair use but found no one else with the same symptoms I had. One guy talked about jerky playback and another about colors being off but no one I seached for said anything about black frames or black blocks with xvid and ffdshow.

What really pisses me off is that my question contained a quote from my searching proving that I did in fact search and I was still told "I bet you can find the answer in many many posts, if you only search." I did freaking search!! Why would I ask the question if I could find the answer by searching?? I searched for a couple of days for black blocks/black frames and fair use. UMP pointed me in the right direction by suggesting the decoder problem.


Just use XviDs decoder. Disable playback over ffdshow - it doesnt handle more than 2 consecutive b-frames when 'Packed Bitstream' is enabled - resulting in stuttery playback. I suppose this is the answer but notice that it talks about "stuttery playback" not black frames or blinking. To me stuttery is stopping and starting, not flashing, flickering or blinking, all of which I searched for.


Anyway my questions did get answered so thank you all for that. I'm not really sure what the point of the forum is supposed to be if not to help one another.

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by lakedude
As a sorta nubee I have the same feeling.

Only twice have I ever asked questions by starting a new thread and twice people were rude and told me to search more.

Yeah, that's the best example of an useless answer. Sometimes I thank people just think that pointing someone to search is the *only* answer to give. Sometimes it's true, if it's quite obvious that the person just post a question without spending time trying to find out by tiself. But sometimes (and just too often from my point of view), the "search more" it's just ridiculous.

Problems like you described (playback adn related for ex.) are just too complex and sometimes answers are just impossible because they haven't been aswered before. Or:

- The answers are old and doesn't apply to the currente version of the software/player/decoder/codec (whatever we're talking about)
- The problem is different that those discussed before (any computer is different, different configuration, OS version, codecs installed, decoder, players, etc...)
- People don't know what to search for their specific problem

The people around here assume that you have read everything that they have so you must be stupid to ask a simple question that they already know the answer to.

You got a point. Sometimes you just feel stupid by the simple fact you're asking something.

I was still told "I bet you can find the answer in many many posts, if you only search."

That's a constructive attitude isn't?

pointed me in the right direction by suggesting the decoder problem.

But hopefully most of the time people will be enough kind to point you to the answer, or the search to do to find it. That's a constructive attitude.

I'm not really sure what the point of the forum is supposed to be if not to help one another.

You got a second point. I can only agree with you.

[Doom9]

before I tell anybody to go use the search, I make sure that I can find the answer to the questions within a reasonable amount of searching (I don't expect you to make 10 searches and go through 10 pages of results for each). But if a two word search gives you the answer within the 5 first results then I think a "use the search" is appropriate. If it takes me half an hour to find a solution, such an answer would obviously not be appropriate. I do think though that globally seen, unfortunate cases like the one described by lakedude, are a lot less frequent than the cases where the short answer is appropriate. And as a newbie you don't automatically get a strike for asking something that has already been asked.. just always remember that because the forum rules don't make that distinction. So we're not all mean and evil spirited, but we're also only human...

Searching is obviously also an art but one we do not teach.. that's something we assume you know as it is the basics of the web. If you can't handle search engines then imho you're not fit to search the web.. it's the first thing you should learn after you start a browser for the first time.

As for guides being up-to-date and detailed.. I think I have described all the options of XviD 1.0b3 (just as a recent example) or Recode2. Where else do you find that amount of detail? And the frameserving and manual Nandub guides should still be there.

@mf: Might I suggest a /r/n (aka enter) every now and then? It would make your posts a lot easier to read. And I know from a rather long history that most people are completely incapable of thinking outside a guide.. they can't even combine two guides if you tell them which part of each they have to take. But despite one click tool guides... the really old DVD reauthoring guides for instance are still here and they teach you the basics. Manual encoding guides are still there (all nandub parameter, divx5 parameters, xvid parameters). And I don't know what is wrong with VDub.. I still use it and it works for me. Plus cutting, etc. is also explained for VDubmod, is it not?

[dvd_maniac]

First off, I do not think this thread was started with the intention of blaming of finger pointing. But seems to be heading this way.

I think jkwarras was just trying to voice his concerns because he CARES what happens to this forum. AS DO I!!!

As for me, when I was new here I did indeed do alot of searching before posting. Sometimes I found the answer and sometimes not. It "is" an art of sorts.

As for a possible solution:

Maybe, when a newbie asks a question that might be obvious, instead of being rude and saying search more you retarded idiot, or just giving him the answer or direct link to it.(these are totally different sides of the spectrum just to make a point) instead give him/her the search words you think he/she will need and explain to that user that this is the best way to find the answers and maybe a link to a readme about searching and why it is important.
Nebies are just like children and if we promote searching to them, they will learn it and grow up to teach others causing a trend.

And lets not forget that if nobody helped out the newbies of a couple of years ago, this site might not be the BEST forum ever created.

jkwarras' main point, IMHO, was not to let the next A/V Einstein get away, because of rudeness...

[jonny]

Originally posted by Doom9
And I know from a rather long history that most people are completely incapable of thinking outside a guide.. they can't even combine two guides if you tell them which part of each they have to take.
Yep, probably this is the major problem (instead of the guides itself).
Plus the fact that someone new to forum stuffs directly step in this way:
guide->problem->register/post

I'm trying to dress myself as a newbie that go to read the guides for the first time.
It's difficult to have a clear idea of all the manual steps (maybe it's only a question of rearranging the current parts in a new index that explain "what happen inside the process").
Plus, the avisynth part could be more detailed and with some worlds about filters/compressability/deinterlacing/ivtc.

This is my point of view, plus i'm a little OT :), anyway i hope you take my post as constructive.

[Doom9]

jkwarras' main point, IMHO, was not to let the next A/V Einstein get away, because of rudeness...As far as I know, Einstein also had to face adverse circumstances ;)

However, you make a good point about the search terms. I might just try that a little more (I'm already doing it from time to time).

the avisynth part could be more detailed and with some worlds about filters/compressability/deinterlacing/ivtc.There's a lenghty guide about deinterlacing and ivtc, is there not? You know I don't care about filters so forget about that one.. except for resize, ivtc, deinterlace and maybe subs filtering makes no sense to me. Never has and probably never will. And, you can't just go adding tons of info to a newbie guide.. it just doesn't work. They will be unable to make the difference as to what they need to know and what is optional to know.. either they'll skip the important parts, or read everything and get so confused that it takes ages to set their mind straight again. I might go over the newbie guide one day to add some "this is the easy way", and "this is the hard way and how it works behind the scenes" links but other than that I don't see a way to combine the two.

[jonny]

There's a lenghty guide about deinterlacing and ivtc, is there not?

You are referring to the one in the forum, isn't it?

I might go over the newbie guide one day to add some "this is the easy way", and "this is the hard way and how it works behind the scenes" links

Yep, this is what i'm suggesting, an alternative presentation where one can go deeply on stuffs (if he wants).
And with integration (via links) of important things one can find only on the forum.

[EDIT]
To make a little example, i've started using CCE on december, RB's FAQ is an essential reading and could be integrated in the guides.
(this is what i mean in general)

[lakedude]

People don't know what to search for their specific problem This was definately the problem with both my posts. In the first one I was looking for a codec instead of a filter. You can't very well find a filter if you are looking for a codec. What is really funny is that both questions were on xvid. The answer to the first was to START using the ffdshow filter and the answer to the second was (basically) to STOP using the ffdshow filter.

[r6d2]

A problem that a mod or a regular user willing to help usually faces, is that he does not know the level of knowledge of the guy asking.

This ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes is called "empathy".

With time users and mods get skills to do an educated guess about the level of knowledge of the poster. And then a series of assumptions are made.

You mentally travel to those days where you refrained from asking and spent countless hours on the search engine and reading guides. You also remember when you read the rules and you remember how you got, with time, to know the forum's etiquette. You place yourself in there, and ask yourself: Has this guy given his best effort?

And then post the answer.

This may be a tough question. But experienced users have the right to make it because they know they did, and the poster is asking for their best effort too. (There's no free lunch.) :)

When I was a newbie, I sincerely preferred something like a :readfaq: or :search: icon (there were none at the time) than the absolute silence of the masses. In other words, I preferred to feel stupid than ignored. :D This way at least I knew how to improve myself.

I've been modding for a short time, only 3 months or so. And I have learned that there are basically two types of newbies. Those who want to learn how to get faster and better answers, and those who think they will get one anyway.

There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. The point is: is my question going to get a suitable answer or not?

How can you tell? Well, a teacher of mine had a way of telling. He used to say: Try to describe the problem to your mother. If she can help you to find the answer, you made a good question.

Now, I'd never tell a newbie "ask your mother", but I guess you get the idea. :D:D:D

[jkwarras]

Originally posted by r6d2
How can you tell? Well, a teacher of mine had a way of telling. He used to say: Try to describe the problem to your mother. If she can help you to find the answer, you made a good question.

:D :D That's the funniest (and maybe smartest) way of thinking I've ever heard :D :D

Now, I'd never tell a newbie "ask your mother", but I guess you get the idea. :D:D:D

If the guy has sens of humour maybe he'll apreciate :p

[lakedude]

Maybe, when a newbie asks a question that might be obvious, instead of being rude and saying search more you retarded idiot, or just giving him the answer or direct link to it.(these are totally different sides of the spectrum just to make a point) instead give him/her the search words you think he/she will need and explain to that user that this is the best way to find the answers and maybe a link to a readme about searching and why it is important. Good idea!

I got the original idea to compress movies from Tom's Hardware page years ago and I'm very proud to have been able to learn how to use the encoding tools of the day without asking any questions of anybody and just using the guides here and over on Nicky Page's site. I never asked any questions about Flask, divx 3.11, 4, 5, cladrip, smart-rip, virtual-dub, nandub, avisyn, G-knot, RobotRip, DVD2AVI, VFAPI, GraphEdit, Lame, BeSweet, FairUse 26 or 30 and many others. I figured out how to use all these softwares on my own with no help(except the guides).

Many thanks to Doom9 without whom none of this would have happened.

[Doom9]

You are referring to the one in the forum, isn't it?No, there's one on my guide, written by manono, and co.

And the CCE FAQ is listed on the FAQ page, is it not?

[jonny]

No, there's one on my guide, written by manono, and co.

Sorry, i was knowing only about the sticky in the forum and i've assumed this one, we are talking about the same page (i've got a look at main guides without finding the entry point for this guide)

And the CCE FAQ is listed on the FAQ page, is it not?

In 3 years it's the first time i notice the FAQ link in the homepage! :) (really!)


Yep, this is what i'm suggesting, an alternative presentation where one can go deeply on stuffs (if he wants).
And with integration (via links) of important things one can find only on the forum.

( i quote myself :) )
Integrating more resources on the actual guides, imo, could help.
You know your site better than everyone else, what looks obvious and well placed, could be not so obvious at the end
(LOL :D ... still thinking i've missed the FAQ link in the hp!!!)

[mf]

Originally posted by Doom9
@mf: Might I suggest a /r/n (aka enter) every now and then? It would make your posts a lot easier to read. And I know from a rather long history that most people are completely incapable of thinking outside a guide.. they can't even combine two guides if you tell them which part of each they have to take. But despite one click tool guides... the really old DVD reauthoring guides for instance are still here and they teach you the basics. Manual encoding guides are still there (all nandub parameter, divx5 parameters, xvid parameters). And I don't know what is wrong with VDub.. I still use it and it works for me. Plus cutting, etc. is also explained for VDubmod, is it not?
Actually, I did that, though because I used a paragraph only, it's not very clearly visible. I edited my post, and every paragraph now has a whitespace between it. Also, I thought newline/linefeed were escaped with a backslash :).

I can imagine people not being able to combine guides though. Hmm, maybe a more modular structure for guides could help. I'm envisioning pulldown forms with things like "I want to convert to [XviD]" and "[Gordian Knot] - Beginner", or "[vStrip/Manual] - Advanced", that would basically have each guide step have configurable preference (with a simple static javascript go to page function in the same way as the quick links pulldown).

About VDub, my main problem was the audio guide that worked with Nandub for MP3 muxing, and that VDubMod nowadays has a totally revamped "Stream List" interface that handles all non-video streams easily. What a typical fansubber would do for instance, is extract the audio from his raw using VDub(Mod), normalize and encode to lame MP3 in besweet, and then import the result of that back into VDubMod. I couldn't really find anything good for that. I might just write a guide up for fun someday. Mind if I submit that to you once I'm satisfied with it?

[Pyscrow]

Perhaps cranky or tired or just "bored with newbies" moderators or long termers should learn to use that little link "next thread" instead of venting their spleen?

after all as grandma used to say - if you don't have something nice to say, dont say anything at all. I am a new user to this forum, and it is very active, why dont you leave such requests that you view as simple alone? In my experience with other forums not so newbies love to get a chance to contribute, and these simple questions by real newbies give them a chance - more experienced users can then step in if the advice goes awry.

[pepipocpoc]

I'd like to add (again) that the number of posts isn't a proof of experience. Look at srt2sup, junior member, creator of srt2sup... Once again, it's not a matter of being senior or junior, but being polite, helpful or mute instead of rude...

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Pyscrow
after all as grandma used to say - if you don't have something nice to say, dont say anything at all.Didn't your grandma ever say something which was not nice to you, albeit right? :D

[Pyscrow]

Originally posted by r6d2
Didn't your grandma ever say something which was not nice to you, albeit right? :D

Yeah - usually just after telling me "if you dont have something nice to say dont say anything"

I said Granny was wise, not that she practiced what she preached!

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Pyscrow
I said Granny was wise, not that she practiced what she preached! My grandma used to say: It's a whole different dance when somebody else is playing the music.

I think she was wise too.

[Koepi]

r6d2:

maybe you shouldn't "paint pictures" (aphorisms? damn, school/rhetorics lessons is long time gone...) but write it straight away - you run into the problem that not everybody might understand what you try to tell ;)

Regards
Koepi

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Koepi
maybe you shouldn't "paint pictures" [...] you run into the problem that not everybody might understand what you try to tell ;)Oh, sorry. I was only quoting my grandma, not something to double click on too much.

Bust just in case, if it has to be said straight, it would mean something like: It's always easier to abide by the rules when you get to make them. When you have to abide by someone else's, it may be a PITA.

Anyway, I generally use metaphors, you're right. But I find them useful. I've found that a good way to make a point is by using an example which is familiar to the readers in question. It's that empathy thing, or an attempt at least. (I hope it does not work just the other way around.)

Thanks for the tip.

[dragongodz]

r6d2 - you quote cole's axiom in you sig and then dare to use metaphors ?

i wonder how many people get that axiom, less everyday ? :D

[r6d2]

Originally posted by dragongodz
r6d2 - you quote cole's axiom in you sig and then dare to use metaphors ?Well, I have a high concept of mankind. ;)

Besides, I've noticed that if you treat people like morons, they tend to behave like that. OTOH, if you attempt to make them think a little, and they do, they get not only self-respect, but from their peers as well.

If they don't, well, it was a wrong strategy but better to try than treat people like morons anyway. :)

[jarthel]

I usually searched first but I don't see anything useful. I then create a new thread. I will say I did a search before creating the thread but it's possible that my search criteria is incorrect.

But I agree with people putting newbies in place when they don't even bother to look for the info themselves. And it's such a silly idea too.

Searching (even blindly but you may get lucky. but I doubt it would be blindly as I assume most users would have an idea of what they want.) gives immediate results. Creating a new thread and waiting for someone to reply could take hours!

But I'm for helping them if they take the time first to help themselves.

[jarthel]

and I forgot 1 thing. There's always the newbie forum. People there might be more lenient compared to the other sections if they know you didn't even bother to search.