volunteers wanted

[Doom9]

As you might know, I now have a DVB setup. This week-end I started capturing some content for later conversion to DivX, SVCD and DVD.

Now, I only have one sat card and I don't exactly wish to buy a dozen to cover everything. Same goes for the applications.. I've tried about everything there is for my SkyStar2 card, but haven't got a lot working (I have a dual sat with twin-LNB which already complicates program setup and I have yet to figure out some of the technical details when having to set everything up manually).

So, I'll be able to handle recording with my application of choice and take it from there (correct errors, cut out commercials, convert to PS streams, etc.) but I could need a few people to handle the part before that. Specifically: list of cards with their pros and cons, useful softwares for those cards to watch and record TV, and an explanation of the basics perhaps.

Also, living in Europe it's not exactly like we have access to a lot of HDTV material (I have yet to determine if I'm able to receive the sole HDTV channel there is and I believe it is encrypted), so for the HDTV side I'd need a few people to do the same thing, and a guide on capture and processing as well.

So far this forum hasn't exactly been high traffic but I very much would like to change that, but I'm unable to do it all alone. Digital TV is certainly a very interesting subject and it fits into the global goals I have for my site. Any takers?

[Hackbart]

If you have a DiSEqC compatible switch, you should make sure that you set the valid DiSEqC values for each satellite you receive. In the DVBViewer you can do this, simply by open the channellist, selecting the satellite and setting the proper value at the edit tabsheet.
HDTV material in europe is indeed quite rarely, but Euro1080 is just the beginning. On february the german paytv channel Premiere is broadcasting the superbowl probably free to air as HDTV event. I suppose the exact 1:1 feed of the americans - incl. commercials ;)

If you want to know more about DVB in common and DVBViewer in special take a look at the english manual which can be found at http://www.dvbviewer.com/~oliver.

There you also find a couple of useful tools for converting the recorded material into DivX, DVD etc.

Cheers
Christian

[bb]

The DVB section (incl. the guides) in the German forum is excellent. I'd vote for a translation.

bb

[Doom9]

@bb: I consider that a starting point but I want to go way beyond that. I'm already in touch with Lucike regarding what tools to be used (some of the information needs to be updated a bit) and such. But being German there's obviously nothing about HDTV.

[Hackbart]

thats true, since the most informations inside the DVBViewer forum are pointing to you webpage - its logically that you are familiar with them ;)
Converting HDTV should run similar like converting of ordinary tv transmissions. I tested to transform the new year concert broadcasted by Euro1080 into XVid, but the result was quite ugly. So i dropped the idea to convert HDTV so far. But i bet if you ask inside the Encoding part of the DVBViewer Forum you will get quite fast the help you need.

Christian

[Karl Beem]

I'm certainly interested. However I'm in the USA (Atlanta). Is it possible to use one of these cards to capture DVB-s here? If so which cards and which satellite service?

[Hackbart]

yes, it is possible to use the skystar2 also in the united states. Since the satellite technique should be the same... A couple of american providers are offering these cards for nearly the same price like in europe...

Christian

[Karl Beem]

Providers? You mean like Dish Network?

[Hackbart]

no, sorry i suppose i used the wrong identifier.
I meant hardware sellers, like http://www.dvbwest.com/product_info.php?products_id=67&osCsid=fe058bf535a98a26288ad909fa1f1d5b.

Christian

[Karl Beem]

Ok, so how is the SkyStar2 connected? Does it connect directly to the antenna output, or to the output of a receiver?

[stax76]

@Doom9

it's great you interested in DVB, for me DVB was always a lot more exciting than DVD, it's also how I came to DVD and where DVX originated.

[Hackbart]

this depends on..
If you plan to receive more than one satellite you might think about some so called DiSEqC switch. Its an european "invention" and quite popular here, but i'm not sure if you are able to buy these exotic devices also in america ;)
A dvb card does not need a special receiver, you only plug the LNB output cable directly into the card and the rest is done by software.

Christian

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Hackbart
...I tested to transform the new year concert broadcasted by Euro1080 into XVid, but the result was quite ugly. So i dropped the idea to convert HDTV so far. But i bet if you ask inside the Encoding part of the DVBViewer Forum you will get quite fast the help you need.

Christian I tried a similar experiment with an Euro1080 broadcast too.

I hate to say it but I only managed to obtain acceptable looking 1920x1088i encodes by using the WMV9 codec. With RV9 coming in a close second.

However another problem I found, is not so much to do with the encoding, but to do with the playback. Unless you have a speedy PC and good graphics card (with plenty of onboard memory) 1920x1080/1088i encodes are not very practical!

I've had more success with Mpeg4 when it's resized from 1920x1080i to 1280x720i/p. And rather good results can be achieved at bitrates of around 2500-3500kbps.

But like I said before, you still need a speedy PC and graphics card.

Cheers

[Kon]

@doom9

I have a complete end-to-end lab at work that does ATSC and DVB encoding, muxing, and modulating (databroadcast encapsulation too i.e. wmv video (or any other codecs) into mpeg sections) and then demodulation with professional IRDs, pc tuner cards, etc. So the long and short is that I can set this up for hardware and software encoding, statmuxing, and any DVB/ATSC/MPEG broadcast simulation of any kind. If there is anything specific anyone would like to see tested, let me know. One caveat, I will not deal with anything related to getting pay services for free.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Kon,

It sounds like we need a guy like you to help us out on this thread too: -

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68292&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Cheers

[Doom9]

@kon: I suppose you have the theoretical knowledge as well? If so it would be nice if you could write a basics article that explains how DVB and ATSC work, the stream formats and such because that's an area I'm still lacking. Also.. do you (or anybody else) have some standalone receivers that support streaming to PCs? That part I won't be able to cover (as well as using hardware that cannot be used by DVBViewer, ProgDVD and DVDPortal - those 3 programs are going to make it into my guides).

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Doom9
Also.. do you (or anybody else) have some standalone receivers that support streaming to PCs? That part I won't be able to cover (as well as using hardware that cannot be used by DVBViewer, ProgDVD and DVDPortal - those 3 programs are going to make it into my guides). I've not yet come across a standalone receiver that does what you ask!

However, in the UK/Europe, Hauppauge market both digital terrestrial TV and digital satellite TV USB2/ScartTV devices.

The digital satellite TV device is here: -
http://www.hauppauge.co.uk/html/digitaltv_prod.htm#dec3000
It's a little different to similar devices because it can be connected 'directly' to a TV via an on board scart.

Over here in euro land we now have our first dedicated Hi-Def set top box satellite receiver - the Zinwell ZDX-410HD (http://www.quali-tv.com/index.php?catID=65). Which can be used to watch our 'one and only' hi-def 1080i channel!

More receivers are promised soon. Hopefully offering DVI output, Hard-drive recording and streaming.

That said, I would really like to know what kind of Mpeg2 chipset is in this STB!

Cheers

[Doom9]

I've not yet come across a standalone receiver that does what you ask!
Really? If I go to the local CE superstore they have plenty of DVB-S receivers with a HDD, but so far I haven't looked for NICs. However, I know there are at least a couple, as mentioned here: http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread.php?t=83#GID03

[SeeMoreDigital]

Yes, in Europe we too have quite a few digital satellite (and now even a couple of digital terrestrial) receivers with internal hard drives.

But none yet incorporate either an USB2 of FireWire connection to transfer Mpeg2 streams to an PC.

That said there are a couple of units that will allow USB1.1 connection for transferring audio streams and image files. I think there's also a receiver that carries an 'media card reader'.

I'll have a look in some of my UK satellite mags to see if I've missed something.

Cheers

[MrDarcy]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

But none yet incorporate either an USB2 of FireWire connection to transfer Mpeg2 streams to an PC.


Most of the PVR (receivers with HD) have a port to transfer files to a PC. But usually you need first to record the file to the receiver's HD, and then you can transfer it to the PC offline. The program TPVRconv has been written to process (demux, convert to Divx, cut, trim, etc.) this kind of files.

But recently I've read about a couple of models which are able to record directly to the PC hard-disk. They are called Neotion and SkyBox (nothing to do with Sky UK and Sky Italia pay-tv services) and I think it's the same receiver with two different brands.

They use the Video-Link software that allows a full-control from the PC, including direct stream recording:

http://www.neotionbox.com/datas/indexbox-gb.html

Bye!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by MrDarcy
Most of the PVR (receivers with HD) have a port to transfer files to a PC. But usually you need first to record the file to the receiver's HD, and then you can transfer it to the PC offline. The program TPVRconv has been written to process (demux, convert to Divx, cut, trim, etc.) this kind of files. I would be interested to learn how fast this transfer process is and what connection is used. As it's probably quicker to remove the HD from the STB and connect it to an PC!

Originally posted by MrDarcy
But recently I've read about a couple of models which are able to record directly to the PC hard-disk. They are called Neotion and SkyBox (nothing to do with Sky UK and Sky Italia pay-tv services) and I think it's the same receiver with two different brands.

They use the Video-Link software that allows a full-control from the PC, including direct stream recording:

http://www.neotionbox.com/datas/indexbox-gb.html

Bye! This is great news. More competition for the Hauppauge DEC3000-s!

Thanks for this


EDIT: Just read the spec for the Neotion box. No mention of whether the USB connection is 1.1 or 2.0. Interesting that it's tailored for receiving porn channels

[stax76]

I think the dreambox you can do all kind of things, it's the best set-top-box at the moment but has still quite a few problems

[MrDarcy]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I would be interested to learn how fast this transfer process is and what connection is used.
Newer models, such as Humax PVR-8000, have a USB 2.0 port.

But there are also faster connections. Look at this:
http://www.satnews.it/prove/4000pvrda/index.shtml (Italian page).
On the rear panel the receiver has an EIDE connector to link its internal HD directly to the PC controller ! But in this case, the receiver's HD cannot be shared between the receiver and the PC at the same time.

@Dolemite:
You're right, the Dreambox can certainly stream MPEG via LAN.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Cool....

I like fast connections!

I'll have to hunt round for the Italian box!

I wonder how long that 'round' IDE extension cable is. As I've been trying to find one at approx 1000 - 1200mm without success!

Also, does anybody know what the maximim 'allowed' cable length is for an USB 2.0 and a FireWire - before the signal goes 'tits up'?

Cheers

[MrDarcy]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

I'll have to hunt round for the Italian box!


Earlier Jepssen receivers (PVR) were clones of other brands (Emtech, GBsat, etc.) that you can find outside Italy too, but I didn't see this specific model called "Direct Access" under any other brand.

As for the Neotion, you can find a complete test report in the latest issue of TELE-satellite international magazine.

[Kon]

Originally posted by Doom9
@kon: I suppose you have the theoretical knowledge as well? If so it would be nice if you could write a basics article that explains how DVB and ATSC work, the stream formats and such because that's an area I'm still lacking. Also.. do you (or anybody else) have some standalone receivers that support streaming to PCs? That part I won't be able to cover (as well as using hardware that cannot be used by DVBViewer, ProgDVD and DVDPortal - those 3 programs are going to make it into my guides).

Sure if you need such an article I can make one. If you have some more specifics just PM me.

As for relaying streams, there are a few existing options -

For video which is muxed into the TS, I've made an app that streams a transport stream from a PCI tuner board (must support directshow) over the network to VLC ( http://www.streamxpress.net/xcaster ). VLS supports some satellite PCI boards, but no ATSC tuners (which is where this app fits in since it supports anything that can provide a buffer of TS packets).

For video that is muxed into the TS as IP packets (like multicast windows media streams), its easy to stream to PCs since the demux board pulls the ip packets back out and onto the network stack (where you can view them with media player or whatnot).

There are also a ton of STBs that will stream to the lan or to firewire. mostly from asia. ;)

The last option is where you want to stream to PCs from a toaster device. I've been testing such a device which is the size of a VHS tape - it has a tuner input and ethernet output. Its not on the market yet, but its 'pretty close'.

[A|]

Doom9: While I don't have the lab that Kon has, I do have about a years worth of experience using dvb-s cards and a few different cards and dish/lnbs. I wouldn't say I'm a guru, but I could explain the differences between ATSC, DVB, and DirectTV's DSS. I know my ts from my ps and es, and I can tell you what many of the pids in a dvb-s stream are used for.

If your in need of some NTSC or even HD streams captured from a dish in north american let me know, I'm sure I can help you out. Free to air only, but there is a wide variety of different bitrates and resolutions out there in the aether over the USA.

[A|]

Originally posted by Hackbart
no, sorry i suppose i used the wrong identifier.
I meant hardware sellers, like (URL omitted)

I would recomend almost any other satellite shop over the one that you provided a link to. They are a company with very shady business practices, things like targeting the signal theft market, and publishing names without permissoin on their website.

I have never purchased anything from them, but know a few that have and they havn't been pleased.

Cavet Emptor.

[MrDarcy]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Cool....

I like fast connections!

I'll have to hunt round for the Italian box!


Wait ! Look at this:
http://www.jepssenclub.com/news.htm

latest Jepssen box with two tuners and a Firewire port.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by MrDarcy
Wait ! Look at this:
http://www.jepssenclub.com/news.htm

latest Jepssen box with two tuners and a Firewire port. Ohhhh, MrDarcy..... You're exciting me too much :D

Cheers mate

[MrDarcy]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Ohhhh, MrDarcy..... You're exciting me too much :D



:devil: eh eh eh

Did you manage to discover how long a firewire cable can be?
(I'm getting excited too....)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Unfortunately no!


EDIT: I've just had a look in some electronics catalogues and the max lengths of both USB1.1 / 2.0 and FireWire seems to be 5.0 meters.

Apparently special 'Repeater' cables can be used for USB which can increase the max run to 50 meters.

Cheers

[mattmc97]

A |,

Is there anything in the us to get the satellite signal into the computer? Nothing illegal, I have directv subscription, I just hate having to capture it with my winfast 2000 xp, it seems to loose resolution.

quote****************************************

If your in need of some NTSC or even HD streams captured from a dish in north american let me know, I'm sure I can help you out. Free to air only, but there is a wide variety of different bitrates and resolutions out there in the aether over the USA.

******************************************

I would be interested in this, what you use, what satellite, where you got it, etc. I just basically want to be able to take satellite signal to my harddrive so I can work with it in its native format before the tuner screws it up.

I have a thread on the main page titled: Direct_tv with the DVB to DVD-R guide where I list the details of what I am doing now.

thanks in advance.

mattmc

[A|]

I have a DVB-S PCI card, it allows me to capture the actual mpeg streem. With my old primestar dish and a couple of 18" dishes for the circular signals, I can pick up and record the mpeg stream of almost any transponder that is broadcasting DVB above 11Ghz. I don't have a motorized dish, so if I want to change sats, I have to go out and re-aim my dish by hand. Doesn't get done much in the winter. http://www.lyngsat.com/america.shtml Check that page for sat and transponder info.

What I can't capture/record:
C-Band - Would need a 6'+ dish
Analogue - Not much here, no tuner
DCII - Another MPEG based tech that is owned by Motorola, no card.
Direct TV - They use a non-standard bastard half brother of dvb, so no luck here.
Anything Encrypted - Illegal

So that keeps the following open for us here in North America:
ALOT of ethnic and religious programing, check out T5
"Wild Feeds" free to air broadcasts that studios and stations use to deliver news, sports, and programing. Without a motorized dish this isn't much fun.
A few local stations here and there
PBS on AMC 3, the best TV out there, including PBS HDTV (http://www.pbs.org/digitaltv/)
Radio stations via Dish Network and BellExpressVu, they are FTA

While it is in no way a replacement for a DBS service or cable, there is some interesting programing out there for us here in the colonies.

And now that I've spent 15 min typing your answer without answering it, no I do not know of a way to digitaly capture programing from Direct TV.

[mattmc97]

thanks I appreciate it!

mattmc

[klona]

As some of you mentionned the dreambox :

I have one since 3 weeks and it's really the best set top box ever.

PPC IBM with hard MPEG1/2 , Flash 64 Mb RAM, Ethernet, USB, PS2, 2 card readers, 1 PCMCIA.

Superb video quality, open Linux on it and lots of image from the web with nice add ons (best is MisterX and Gutan from my point of view)

Compatible any sat system (motorized on my side, no problem with multiple disecq etc)

I put no HD in the dreambox (some power consumption problems, compatibility also, but use NFS to use my PC HD)

Can do real digital recording of the sat broadcast ( TS format : Transport stream + multiple audio tracks when available).

On decoding issue, it's compatible with every official card (with non official images) and can do everything on Hotbird,Thor,Sirius,Hispasat with the correct software.
Also possibility to do card sharing, allowinf one official card and 2 dreambox on your local network over TCP/IP.

Can also do MP3 player, jpeg/gif slideshow, samba sharing, multiboot image from USB (I strongly suggest official image + multiboot on USB)
Only missing feature is Divx player.

It's quite stable now, just some decoding freeze sometimes.


This magic box is about 350 euros now in germany.
I ordered one from www.tkv.com, delivered in 4 days from Germany to France.


Suggested forum for more details : http://sat-industry.net/forums/

[klona]

I forget about USB recording set top boxes...

Most are "USB compatible with USB 2.0 but you can use also USB 1.1"
clearly, it's USB 1, with a poor on the fly re encoding.
Ugly.
Dreambox is the only one I know which record the real stream directly (except PC SAT cards of course)

[Pyscrow]

Originally posted by Doom9
but I could need a few people to handle the part before that. Specifically: list of cards with their pros and cons, useful softwares for those cards to watch and record TV, and an explanation of the basics perhaps.

Also, living in Europe it's not exactly like we have access to a lot of HDTV material (I have yet to determine if I'm able to receive the sole HDTV channel there is and I believe it is encrypted), so for the HDTV side I'd need a few people to do the same thing, and a guide on capture and processing as well.


In Australia our HDTV (Terestrial) is free to air, I have the much maligned AverTV DVB-T card, which is not suposed to support HDTV very well, but mine works ok, can be a bit blocky if the weather is bad (I live a fair way from the broadcast tower).

Getting from Capture to DVD is a fairly simple process for me.
1. Capture with Standard software that comes with the card
2. Demux with PVAStrumento
3. Use MPEG2 Scnitt english version to remove adds etc
3. Us TMPGEnc DVD Author to make a DVD!

[spyder]

Wouldn't it be better to use VirtualDub and AVISynth to cut out ads? I'm not sure chopping a DVB video stream up with a mpeg editor is the best way. Aside from not being frame precise, you can't be sure that you aren't going to screw up some more frames in the process. Of course, the other method takes more time and maybe more patience ;) I use DVD2AVI on the mpeg file i record, .mpg usually but also .ts sometimes with DVD2AVI2(from save-oe i think). Then open in VdubMod via AVISynth and go through deleting the ads. Then tell the script editor to insert the frameset as trims and, viola :) You also have to decode the audio or maybe use mpasource.

[bb]

Originally posted by spyder
Wouldn't it be better to use VirtualDub and AVISynth to cut out ads?If you want to reencode, yes. If you want to keep MPEG-2, you'd lose quality this way.

bb

[Kika]

OK, it's an older Posting, but i agree to klona: I love my Dreambox. I use it with a HDD (Samsung 160 GByte) and an Ethernet Connection (40/8 MBit/s Down- and Upload).
My "Firmware" is the DBF 0.91 Image, which i really like. Very stable with a lot of nice features.

HDTV-Recording to HDD is no problem, unfortunatly, my PC is way to slow to decode HDTV in Realtime :(

What i've tried is creating DVDs from the Streams i captured and i'm satisfied with the results. Mostly better than buyed Concert-DVDs. :)

[spyder]

Originally posted by bb
If you want to reencode, yes. If you want to keep MPEG-2, you'd lose quality this way.

bb

Agreed but I haven't seen a DVD player that will play most DVB resolutions. At least not the ones i commonly get, (544x480, 704x480).

My dvd player mirrors the video again to fill the space...which is aggravating ;) I like to watch it in normal vision not double ;)

The 704x480 gets a small border. I have to use 720x480 with this DVD player. The other 2 i have tried won't even play the 544x480 one.

[bb]

spyder, does that happen if you patch the resolution to 720x480, too?

bb

[spyder]

Patch the resolution how? Tell me and I will try it :)

[bb]

Using ProjectX (x08.jar) you should do it by default, if I remember correctly (at least there's a setting). You can use ReStream, too, for instance.

bb