Maestro v. Scenarist - - Regarding Subtitles

[LB]

Question. Maestro's subtitle portion was built flawed. Meaning, it works, but it wasn't built "correctly". (See http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=54620 and "somejoe"'s post regarding this)

So anyway. I want dead accurate subtitles. Meaning, I time not only per timecode, but I also factor in frames. On some frames, I DO NOT WANT the subtitles to appear. I want them to stop. The problem is, due to the fps which a mpeg runs at, all subtitle conversion utils which output to a Maestro compatible subtitle file (.son or .stl) "adjust" the timecode. In the end, the subtitles sync, but they aren't "frame accurate" as they were on my avi.

So my question is, does scenarist do things differently? Can I achieve "frame accurate" subtitles w/o having to modify the subtitles inside scenarist -- i.e., will my flawlessly timed SSA convert to a frame accurate scenarist file? I just don't want to spend the time learning scenarist if it won't change anything compared to Maestro.

And again, I'm not talking about drop frames or stuff like that. My subtitles are synced fine, but due to the fps of a mpeg2 file, maestro needs an "adjustment factor" so the subtitles start out frame accurate, but that "adjustment factor" takes its toll, and +1 hour into the movie the subtitles don't dissappear on the exact frame I want them to...

Ideas?

[LB]

bump







yes, I am bumping my own thread :D deal with it.

[RobertR]

Originally posted by LB
Question. Maestro's subtitle portion was built flawed. Meaning, it works, but it wasn't built "correctly". (See http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=54620 and "somejoe"'s post regarding this)

So anyway. I want dead accurate subtitles. Meaning, I time not only per timecode, but I also factor in frames. On some frames, I DO NOT WANT the subtitles to appear. I want them to stop. The problem is, due to the fps which a mpeg runs at, all subtitle conversion utils which output to a Maestro compatible subtitle file (.son or .stl) "adjust" the timecode. In the end, the subtitles sync, but they aren't "frame accurate" as they were on my avi.

Don't know how do you convert from 'avi subs' to son/stl. If there is conversion to SSA in between than most probably that's what causes your probs. From what i understood 'avi subs' are in frame format called microDVD. On contrary SSA is entirely based on time (no frame numbers there). STL/SON both use somewhat mixed timecode:
HH:MM:SS:FF - FF means frame number within SS second. I assume you play with NTSC videos and this tends to use almost 24fps or almost 30fps (beeing in a PAL land never could realy get hold of that idea). Those almosts acumulate and give you subs that are not frame-to-frame identical.
So my question is, does scenarist do things differently? Can I achieve "frame accurate" subtitles w/o having to modify the subtitles inside scenarist -- i.e., will my flawlessly timed SSA convert to a frame accurate scenarist file? I just don't want to spend the time learning scenarist if it won't change anything compared to Maestro.
SSA is entirely time based and i don't think it can be 100% frame-to-frame identical with microDVD (just try to convert SSA to mDVD and see for yourself). I think that Scenarist won't help you. It's the conversion that looses frame-accuracy not authoring tool. Scenarist just doesn't pay attention to DROP/NON-DROP flag of video material.
If your problems are not (in any way) related to DROP/NON-DROP then all you can do is to manualy pinpoint last frame of sub and from my (rather limited) experience it's much easier to do it in DVDMaestro. You can also open SON/STL file in any text editor and fix frames there.

[SomeJoe]

I believe the problem here is not Maestro or Scenarist.

The problem is that you don't have some kind of text file with frame-accurate SMPTE timecodes marking the in and out point of your subs. (If you do, then the problem is solved -- Maestro or Scenarist will author it perfectly frame accurate once the text file is converted to the compatible format).

Until you can generate a SMTPE-timecode text file of frame-accurate in and out points, nothing can really help you.

As far as the different subtitle formats, I can't comment on those since I've never used them (all my work with subtitles is .stl for use with Maestro). So I can't tell you what would be the best way to convert.

By the way, I never said (and in fact I refuted) that Maestro's subtitling is "flawed" or "wasn't built correctly". The opposite is true. Maestro is one of the few DVD authoring programs that handles subtitles rock solidy perfect. :)

[LB]

Hey man, well I use MaestroSBT to convert from SSA -> SON and go from 23.976 to a drop framed speed. I also thought that MaestroSBT might be the problem, so I converted using a different program (I forget the name, but someone mentioned it in this thread - subworkshop maybe?) from SSA -> SON and the resultant timecode was identical to MaestroSBT's conversion. So, I'm guessing the formula to convert then is correct in the programs... so... ideas?

Originally posted by RobertR
SSA is entirely time based and i don't think it can be 100% frame-to-frame identical with microDVD (just try to convert SSA to mDVD and see for yourself). I think that Scenarist won't help you. It's the conversion that looses frame-accuracy not authoring tool. Scenarist just doesn't pay attention to DROP/NON-DROP flag of video material.
If your problems are not (in any way) related to DROP/NON-DROP then all you can do is to manualy pinpoint last frame of sub and from my (rather limited) experience it's much easier to do it in DVDMaestro. You can also open SON/STL file in any text editor and fix frames there.

And yep, so I guess that's where I am right now. I wonder why, if pulldown isn't anything special, why a frame-accurate conversion from SSA->SON isn't possible. One would figure that it would be... Hmm, what do you think of going from a FRAME BASED subtitle format instead of SSA, and then convert the frame format to .SON? Do you think that would do it correclty?

[Mtz]

I think LB is talking about Subtile Workshop 2.03.
You can open the subtile file (time based or frame based) and after pressing Ctrl+I for detectig errors, you can save as .stl (Spruce Subtile file) and import to Maestro.

[RobertR]

STL export from SubtitleWorkshop is flawed. Last digits in timecode should be frame number and Subtitle Workshop generates fractions of seconds (AFAIK author already knows about it). I never realy needed frame accurate subs. When i need to add subs to NTSC movie using DVDMaestro i convert mDVD subs to SSA and choose 23.976fps. When i generate SON subs in MaestroSBT i choose 29.97 fps (both in and out timing). When video track is DROP type i just import subs and they are in-sync (once again i never needed frame-accurate sync -- never realy checked that). When video track is NON-DROP then before importing subs i place DROP video on timeline (i have 1:56 DROP type clip on my disk just for this purpose -- you can use DoPulldown to convert to DROP type), then i import subs and finally replace this DROP video with proper one (subs are shifted automatically to compensate). Will this help in your situation? Don't know.. Just one more way to check.
I do think that there is no way to create frame-accurate subs when using conversion from mDVD to SSA to SON/STL (roundings of calculation cumulate).
One more idea just hit my head. Did you ever tried to use DVDSupTools? These convert from mDVD to SUP, muxing should be done in IfoEdit or better in ReJig (IfoEdit seems to have problems with NTSC material). There is only one conversion here so the rounding errors get less chance to interfere.

[DeKSoft]

STL export from SubtitleWorkshop is flawed. Last digits in timecode should be frame number and Subtitle Workshop generates fractions of seconds (AFAIK author already knows about it)
Yes, I am aware of the bug and it is fixed in version 2.03. I've tried it myself and it works.

[RobertR]

Originally posted by DeKSoft
Yes, I am aware of the bug and it is fixed in version 2.03. I've tried it myself and it works.

Please accept my apologies.
I was quite sure that 2.03 has this bug regarding both SON/STL and SST. I've just checked and only SST is broken in that way (hundreths of sec vs frame number). It doesn't matter that much anyway as Sonic Scenarist 2.x will not accept this file anyway (last part of the line should be name of bitmap and from what i know Subtitle Workshop doesn't generate them). I use Subtitle Workshop when i work on subs in diff formats and it has the best translator mode i've seen. All in all it's one hell of a program :)

Best regards
Robert

[DeKSoft]

Yes, I am aware SST is broken too in 2.03. Wait few weeks and you'll get 2.50 with veeeeery nice changes and this bug fixed. However, it doesn not support rendering to BMPs yet (you need to use MaestroSBT).

[RobertR]

@DeKSoft:
Cool! Thank You in advance for this great tool!
Will bitmap generation be included in some future version? Or is it out of question? (MaestroSBT is good tool, has it's drawback tho)

[DeKSoft]

I have planned to add rendering in a future, but I don't know exactly when. But I think I can tell you it will be there sometime :)

[RobertR]

Well, all i can say is awsome!. Thanks a lot in advance!