Commercial DVDs are DVD-R or DVD+R ?

[ukb007]

Maybe the question is absurd. Which shows the depth of my knowledge on the subject.

Seriously, if I were to burn my own movie-only WHERE EAGLES DARE DVD using any one standard (-R, +R, -RW, +RW) from .vob files I have ripped from the DVD that I have bought from a store, how will these compare with each other in ways other than the movie content?

Thanks.

[jggimi]

It's not absurd, but it does show some ignorance of the differeces between burned and manufactured DVDs.

Manufactured DVDs may hold twice the data of a burned DVD, regardless of burnable format (plus, minus, etc.). But that's only if they are dual layer discs. The layers are assembled in manufacture.

This is why there are DVD backup tools that reduce the amount of data to fit dual-layer commercial DVDs into a single burnable DVD.

In this particular case, you're asking about Where Eagles Dare, a 1968 film released on DVD by Warner Home Video. According to www.imdb.com that is a single-layer, single sided DVD. It will fit onto a burnable DVD.

If you copy it in ISO form with a tool like DVDDecrypter, you will have all of the .vob stream content -- but with encryption removed.

There are some new technologies announced for burnable "dual layer" discs, if you go back through 2003's news on www.doom9.org you will see some. But as far as I can recall, products are not yet to market.

[mudda_t]

Not sure if I totally understand your question but here goes
.
Commercial Dvd's are stamped with the info not burned, that would be the difference between discs. A blank dvd has a layer of dye on it where a laser burns the info. Cdr's and store bought cd's are the same way.
.
That's about the easiest way to explain it, do some research if you want to learn more.
.
.
Also, commercial dvd's have css (copy protection) on them, blank discs don't.

[ukb007]

Thanks, mudda_t and jggimi.

I don't know if I understand it correctly, but I think -R and +R are different technologies/methods of writing on a blank DVD. My questions are:

1] Can one tell from the disc itself after I have written a movie on it whether it was burnt using -R or +R method?

2] Which method is used in writing/creation of commercial DVDs ?

3] Please point out why the questions are absurd, if they are.

Thanks. Regards.

[Kedirekin]

The questions aren't absurd. It's just that you lack some knowledge that most here are so familiar with it's almost hard for us to answer.

Commercial DVDs are almost literally pressed. The studio makes a set of masters (out of glass I think), and plastic disks are 'pressed' using the masters. After pressing, the plastic disk has billions and billions of tiny pits or bumps. The disk is then made reflective by applying a very thin layer of aluminum through a process called vapor deposition. The disk works in a player or DVD-ROM because the laser reflects well off of lands but not well off of pits or bumps (because the pit or bump is higher or lower than where the laser is focused).

DVD+R and DVD-R both work by using a laser to change the reflectivity of a dye deposited on a more or less flat piece of plastic. It works differently than a pressed disk, but achieves the same end result - billions of spots that either reflect well or don't.

From the perspective of how the disks work (the dye reflectivity thing), DVD+R and DVD-R are comparable. However, there are techinical details in the implementations of +R and -R that will always make it possible to tell them apart (not to the naked eye, but the machines know).

[ukb007]

Now it is much clearer. I'll do more reading to smoothen the jagged edges of my knowledge-base. Regards.

[Happygolucky]

Originally posted by ukb007
Maybe the question is absurd. Which shows the depth of my knowledge on the subject.

Seriously, if I were to burn my own movie-only WHERE EAGLES DARE DVD using any one standard (-R, +R, -RW, +RW) from .vob files I have ripped from the DVD that I have bought from a store, how will these compare with each other in ways other than the movie content?

Thanks.

And if you want the highest compatibility with all standalone DVD players, burn with -R. Several brands of players, like Pioneer, absolutely refuse to read any +R or +RW discs, but happily accept the -R and -RW ones. So if you want to be sure your disc will play on anyone else's machine, go with -R.

[Kedirekin]

Um, some people believe this, but not all of us. You imply that some devices will read +R, but all devices will read -R, and that isn't true. There are players that won't recognize -R. Testing has shown that compatibility is roughly equal.

No offense, but I consider your post missinformation. Please, and I do mean please, don't post messages that imply -R is 100% compatible.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by jggimi
Manufactured DVDs may hold twice the data of a burned DVD, regardless of burnable format (plus, minus, etc.). But that's only if they are dual layer discs.
My 2 cents,

Also, commercial DVDs can actually be pressed in both sides.

[Kb_cruncher]

Its quite strange but my fathers computer has a mashita 8x DVDROM ,
which is quite old now, that will not read -R/RW at all but happilly accepts all +R/RW.

[Happygolucky]

Originally posted by Kedirekin
Um, some people believe this, but not all of us. You imply that some devices will read +R, but all devices will read -R, and that isn't true. There are players that won't recognize -R. Testing has shown that compatibility is roughly equal.

No offense, but I consider your post missinformation. Please, and I do mean please, don't post messages that imply -R is 100% compatible.

I consider your post arrogant. I stand by the information in my post. I have yet to encounter a standalone NTSC DVD player sold in the USA that will not accept a DVD-R disc that is properly authored. I know several brands, major brands at that, which will NOT recognize any DVD+R discs. Yes, I understand there are some brands of DVD-R media which may or may not be compatible with various players, but I'm not referring to media anomalies within a type. A Pioneer DVD player, for example, will not play a DVD+R/+RW disc regardless of the brand or formulation of the media.

Now, if there are brands of DVD players (sold in the USA) that will not recognize properly authored DVD-R discs, I would love to know about them. BTW, the test reports I have read show a distinct advantage to -R media for compatibility. It is not "roughly equal" as you say, unless you consider double-digit percentage differences as "roughly equal". In that respect, Richard Simmons is "roughly equal" in size to Shaquille O'Neil.

[jggimi]

Before this gets out of hand, I will respectfully request members posting in this thread to remind themselves of a few of the forum rules:3) Keep the focus...

4) Be nice to each other...Thank you for your kind attention.

[matmike]

@Happygolucky:
I respect your opinion, but I also think it is wrong:
My Pioneer DV656A plays both, +R/W and -R/W.
But not every player capable of playing -R/W is also able to play +R/W and vice versa.
Ther were some tests made by very good computer magazines in Germany where they tested compatibility. Approximately 95% of standalones play -R and 95% support +R.
So I think Kedirekin is right.
But best support can be achieved by setting the media type to DVD-ROM.

MatMike

[ukb007]

-R or +R ?

This million-dollar question is being considered by million-dollar companies, and they haven't yet come to a consensus. Let's not e-Fight on their behalf, and wait for a standard to evolve. Of course there's the risk that we'll all grow old by then, or the world will switch over to some other breakthrough completely different from what we can imagine now.

Now, PROs, answer this (just for fun; I'm not abandoning the ripping camp):

Now that commercial DVD releases are getting cheaper, why should we take all the trouble of ripping, DivXing, and burning? Just don't say "Because it's there", okay?

Regards.

[matmike]

Well, in Germany these DVDs aren't that cheap. They are sold for 20? and more.
When I consider buying a blank DVD+-disc for 2?, renting a dvd for ?1.50 and spending some time (rip, quantize and burn ~1.5 hours, but you don't have to supervise your machine all the time:)), it's much cheaper.
Furthermore, you normally got most of the hardware already. And as I need the DVD burner for burning data, why shouldn't I also use it to burn film DVDs?

MatMike

[Happygolucky]

Originally posted by matmike
@Happygolucky:
I respect your opinion, but I also think it is wrong:
My Pioneer DV656A plays both, +R/W and -R/W.
But not every player capable of playing -R/W is also able to play +R/W and vice versa.
Ther were some tests made by very good computer magazines in Germany where they tested compatibility. Approximately 95% of standalones play -R and 95% support +R.
So I think Kedirekin is right.
But best support can be achieved by setting the media type to DVD-ROM.

MatMike

Last time I looked at a map, Germany isn't in the USA.

When I want to burn a DVD that will be playable by the most people, I choose a DVD-R disc. I've burned up to 20 discs that I've mailed to friends and family, all of whom have different brands/models of DVD players, and have yet to have one not work. Note, too, that the media type can't be changed on some burners (my TDK 440N external burner for instance).

In Europe things may be different, as the manufacturers make different machines for that market than they do for the USA market.

If you want some testing data, check out:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=DVD%20Media%20Format%20Compatibility%20Tests

They found that -R was compatible with 96.74% of the players, while +R was compatible with only 87.32%.

[matmike]

No need for sarcasm.
But as I remember, the DVD-656A is also sold in the US (it's a version of the player without support for DVD-A and SACD, but on this (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/dvdplayers.php?DVDname=pioneer+656&Submit=Search&Search=Search&orderby=Name) page, you can see that the US-version plays DVD+). You can see which version is tested by looking at the price. The european version with DVD-A an SACD is much more expensive.
I'm sure there are also different players that can be found there that are capable of playing DVD+. The problem is that most manufaturers don't tell anything about the support for DVD- or DVD+.
So you always have to look for independent forums or webpages that tell you some facts about the player.
The one mentioned above is quiet good fot that purpose.

MatMike

[Happygolucky]

Originally posted by matmike
No need for sarcasm.
But as I remember, the DVD-656A is also sold in the US (it's a version of the player without support for DVD-A and SACD, but on this (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/dvdplayers.php?DVDname=pioneer+656&Submit=Search&Search=Search&orderby=Name) page, you can see that the US-version plays DVD+). You can see which version is tested by looking at the price. The european version with DVD-A an SACD is much more expensive.
I'm sure there are also different players that can be found there that are capable of playing DVD+. The problem is that most manufaturers don't tell anything about the support for DVD- or DVD+.
So you always have to look for independent forums or webpages that tell you some facts about the player.
The one mentioned above is quiet good fot that purpose.

MatMike

I was attempting to make note that I specifically stated "in the USA" as a clarification of my statements, that's all. Sarcastic, yes, but not meant as an offense.

Someone else has pointed out to me that my statement about making DVDs and mailing them to friends and family is a violation of another forum rule. Let me make it clear that I regularly make copies of videotapes made of FAMILY GATHERINGS (Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays, etc.) and burn them to DVD so that the rest of the family and friends can enjoy them. Now when the MPAA and RIAA makes that illegal, we're all doomed.

[matmike]

I was attempting to make note that I specifically stated "in the USA" as a clarification of my statements, that's all. Sarcastic, yes, but not meant as an offense.
Absolutely no problem:)
That's what boards are for. Hard discussions.
I'm wondering very much that the big players like Pioneer and all the others say nothing about which format they support. It would be much easier for consumers.
Everytime someone asks me for a good and cheap DVD-player, I pack discs of all formats (DVD+R(W), DVD-R(W), CD-RW, CD-R, SVCD on DVD, MP3 on DVD and much more) and go to the shop. Then, the testing session starts.
I can understand that the manufacturers that make cheap players don't tell you anything about what they support. But the big firms?
In my opinion, it's just because every firm is part of one of the standardization groups and noone wants to confess that he supports the "bad format" of the other group:)

MatMike

[Happygolucky]

Originally posted by matmike
Absolutely no problem:)
That's what boards are for. Hard discussions.
I'm wondering very much that the big players like Pioneer and all the others say nothing about which format they support. It would be much easier for consumers.
Everytime someone asks me for a good and cheap DVD-player, I pack discs of all formats (DVD+R(W), DVD-R(W), CD-RW, CD-R, SVCD on DVD, MP3 on DVD and much more) and go to the shop. Then, the testing session starts.
I can understand that the manufacturers that make cheap players don't tell you anything about what they support. But the big firms?
In my opinion, it's just because every firm is part of one of the standardization groups and noone wants to confess that he supports the "bad format" of the other group:)

MatMike

True. A friend gave me a DVD+RW disc he made where he changed the media type to DVD-ROM and my Pioneer DV353 accepted it with no problem. But the same brand media burned with the same burner and not media type changed would not play. Since Pioneer is one of the founders of the -R/-RW group, they purposely disabled the +R discs from playing in their machines, which is a crappy attitude, in my opinion. I hate format wars.

But, with my family and friends having all sorts of machines, I've not had a problem with any of the DVD-Rs I've burned for them.

[ac3]

I found Kedirekin's reply not only arrogant, but it showed lack of insight. Happygolucky nowhere implied 100% compatibility of DVD-R, If Kedirekin did a few pages of research, he will find that DVD-R has roughly 3% more compatible than DVD+R media in all DVD players in a well know survey. This may not be a huge deal, but the way of display lack of knowledge and respective was not appropriate.

[r6d2]

Well, I think your post does not provide any valuable information to the topic at hand, and revives a thread dead for 1 month now. If you want to start a poll on format popularity, do it, but there is no need to express yourself not nicely towards someone who has a different opinion.

You ignored the forum rules and the specific request of a moderator in this very thread.

[Kedirekin]

I apologize if my earlier post sounds disrespectfully. That certainly wasn't my intent. Perhaps I could have worded my request better, but I am after all only human.

[sarahjh69]

commercial dvds are pressed (similar to old records)
dvd5 have a single layer, dvd9 have 2 layers glued together.
dvdr are burnt with a laser following a track.

cdfreaks did a test of players on sale in the last year
and reported
97% played dvd-r
75% played dvd+r
(approx...can't remember the actual numbers)
you will find the players that won't play dvd+r have had the
firmware deliberately made to reject media read as dvd+r.
Some dvd writers have a BITSETTING utility that will allow you
to burn and finalise the dvd+r as a DVD ROM, then the players
read the dvd+r as a dvd rom and will play it.
(liteon 811s has a utility to do this)

a tool called dvdinfopro will read and display all the info
about a dvdr...find it using google....it's free

[gof]

I'll second the comments on using BITSETTING to cure most (all) compatibility problems.

Bitsetting allows a user to set the Booktype (a data flag on a DVD) to be different than the media type. This only works with +R or +RW media and must be done when the disk is burnt. For our primary interest, it allows you to set the booktype of a DVD+R to DVD-ROM. Now all players seem to read these!! (examples of failures welcome).

So, for "ultimate" compatibility, use +R media and set the booktype to DVD-ROM. As a bonus, some readers will allow faster reading of media flagged this way.

[killingspree]

please guys keep this whole thing civilized :)

just respect each other (and the rules btw :P) and you'll have a nice and interesting discussion going on here!

cheers
steVe

PS: "Don't claim, quote" ;)

[boomer2003]

Some people posting in this thread need to review Forum Rule #6. It is a very important rule and breaking it could deny all of us the great opportunities brought to us from Doom9 if it were to go away.

[ukb007]

Hmm, this is interesting, and should solve all compatibility problems. Thanks, sarahjh69, for the idea.

This software - dvdinfopro - does it tell you whether your writer has this capability or not ?

We'd all like more info on this idea (writing as DVD-ROM instead of DVD+R):

1. Do all writers support this ?
2. If not, where do we find a list ?
3. Can we force a writer to do this by some kind of firmware upgrade or something ?
4. Importantly, is there a catch in it somewhere - this idea of burning as DVD-ROM instead of DVD+R, I mean ? Because it seems to me to sidestep the entire issue of DVD+R or DVD-R, an issue that's producing king-sized headaches for the big industry boys out there. And, incidentally, producing such lively response to this thread that my ignorence has started.

Thanks, PROs.

[Dimmer]

Originally posted by sarahjh69
Some dvd writers have a BITSETTING utility that will allow you
to burn and finalise the dvd+r as a DVD ROM, then the players
read the dvd+r as a dvd rom and will play it. I got the DVD BitSetter (http://www.dvdplusrw.org/Article.asp?mid=14&sid=18&aid=77) utility, and indeed it can change DVD+R/RW book type to DVD-ROM for the drive, not just for each particular disc. I'm wondering, where is this book type setting stored? Is it in the drive's firmware, or in Windows setting? Apparently, it's not in the RAM since it doesn't change after reboot. What prompts the question is that the program has an option Apply settings when Windows starts, implying that the settings might change after restart even though they don't. My drive is AOpen DRW4410.

[ukb007]

Thanks, dimmer, for the link. It transpires that the DVDplusRW.org recommends this utility, and it has different versions for different drives.

Apparently, there's no change at the drive level, and not just in the RAM either. My guess is that there's some change that's stored in the drive's installation folder. I'm excited about this, and so haven't yet had time to look at it.

But if it's that easy to sidestep this infernal Rplus or Rminus ? issue, then is there a catch in it somewhere ?

Regards.