OK, I'll throw the grenade in... MAC Users?

[Scoobydeux]

OK, I'm hiding under my desk before I ask this question. I've been doing this for about 2 years now, and I am very comfortable with the entire process of DVD manipulation with all the tools discussed on this website. Here is my question:

Can this stuff be done on a MAC? I am really interested in some of the other abilities of the MAC, with video, and am a little tired of the number of programs i have to use to get the job done on a PC. Anyone out there on a MAC care to throw an opinion my way?

Bring on the shower of replies!

Scoobydeux

[DevilsChild]

From what I've read, you can do a lot of video encoding on a Mac but you'll be somewhat more limited in selection. DivX Pro and RV9 are available for OS X. I think VirtualDub is Windows only, but Adobe Premiere has a Mac version. Not sure if there are many DeCSS programs (such as SmartRipper, DVDDecrypter) for the Macintosh.

[Doom9]

@Scoobydeux: why hide? It is a valid question. If there are enough mac users there we could even create a dedicated forum for them, but that all depends on the numbers.

I don't know about rip programs, I just know there are. ffmpegX is probably the most well known video compression program, and for DVD-R there's both dvd2oneX and the tool by metakine (rejig is based on the same engine). 3ivX is also available on the Mac and I think XviD should be as well, being a cross platform codec and all (it might even be integrated into ffmpegX).

But to my knowledge you won't find programs like VDub, VobSub, etc. on the Mac.

[Nic]

(also check out 3ivx's and DivX's forums, they have a mildy active Mac user base there, where I'm sure you could get more help if need be)

-Nic

[sysKin]

I think the best way is to use unix tools, such as mencoder.

BTW xvid team would really like a mac person to join and create Quicktime interface for xvid. No such person ever showed up, so I guess there aren't many opensource coders interested... a pity.

Radek

[theReal]

I'm not a Mac user myself, but many of my colleagues are (and also our NLE systems at work are Macs with Final Cut Pro 4).

The first reason why I'd never buy a Mac is that there are much more programs for Windows. There are tons of freeware available for Windows (just look at the Doom9 download section).

For Mac there is, well, less. You can get DVD2one for Mac, also there's a lot of good professional tools like Final Cut Pro, Photoshop, iDVD and so on - but there's not such a massive amount of nice little freeware tools and hacks.

Second - it's a myth that Macs are just running fine without reinstalling the OS and without ever making problems. One of our editing Macs is currently making a lot of problems: it hangs, it terminates FCP without saving, it also simply crashes.

If you buy good PC parts (well-chosen brand-name hardware) a PC under WinXP is at least as stable as a Mac.
However, most Mac users don't want to care about their hardware and the only comparison they have is the cheapo discount PC they once had. This is of course just as good as "comparing apples with pears" (German saying, freely translated :))

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by theReal
I'm not a Mac user myself, but many of my colleagues are (and also our NLE systems at work are Macs with Final Cut Pro 4).

The first reason why I'd never buy a Mac is that there are much more programs for Windows. There are tons of freeware available for Windows (just look at the Doom9 download section).

You don't need tons of crappy/good programs. Only one good one.

Originally posted by theReal
For Mac there is, well, less. You can get DVD2one for Mac, also there's a lot of good professional tools like Final Cut Pro, Photoshop, iDVD and so on - but there's not such a massive amount of nice little freeware tools and hacks.

I would not stand by that statement. As a solid linux user and brethren of the OSXers there are a good number of good video tools being written for POSIX compliant systems let alone the Mac specific ones. Though I have only recently messed much with video processing under Linux. I have had great sucess with FFMPEG and Mencoder. And AVIDemux is almost the linux equivalent of Virtualdub. It is only missing a few of my favorite filters. That and there is no AVISynth equivalent under linux. G-Synth anyone?

Originally posted by theReal
Second - it's a myth that Macs are just running fine without reinstalling the OS and without ever making problems. One of our editing Macs is currently making a lot of problems: it hangs, it terminates FCP without saving, it also simply crashes.

Any 3rd party software? How often do you run matinance? It's true the systems are not crash proof. But they as a rule behave far better than Wintell systems. And slightly better than lintel systems. Perhaps there is a piece of hardware failing. It happens to the best.

Originally posted by theReal
If you buy good PC parts (well-chosen brand-name hardware) a PC under WinXP is at least as stable as a Mac.
However, most Mac users don't want to care about their hardware and the only comparison they have is the cheapo discount PC they once had. This is of course just as good as "comparing apples with pears" (German saying, freely translated :))

Is it really as stable? I highly doubt it. Since on the Mac the software and hardware share such close relation I find it hard to imagine Windows XP being as stable. About the closest thing in the Wintel world to a Mac is the Xbox. And even on systems that run poorly under Windows Linux or *BSD runs better as a rule. Not to mention when was the last time Mac users got blasted by blaster or succumbed to messages of false love. Only under Windows.

On the topic of a Mac forum though. I think it is a bit unnecssary. Especially now. Since Mac is part of the larger POSIX world as of the release of OSX. It would be better to expand the "Linux" section to encompase the largest group of OS in the world. Instead of linux it could be the "Linux, OSX, BSD, IRIX, AIX, Solaris, HPUX, QNX, insert your favorite X encoding forum.". Because encoding under Linux, BSD, or OSX are all quite similar. :D I know that the Macers and *nixers can get along. It's those Windows users you have to watch out for!

Greetings from a place where *nix outnumbers Windows 4:1! :D :p

[Carbon]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
Is it really as stable? I highly doubt it. Since on the Mac the software and hardware share such close relation I find it hard to imagine Windows XP being as stable. About the closest thing in the Wintel world to a Mac is the Xbox. And even on systems that run poorly under Windows Linux or *BSD runs better as a rule.

I run both XP and OSX at home/work, and I find them both to be roughly the same. They are both great OSs and run stable MOST of the time.

When OSX crashes, it crashes in a hard way, not easy to recover from and almost always requiring a hard reboot. This happens much more often on OSX than on my XP workstation. OSX also has annoying habit of corrupting files because it often crashes while writing to disk (has happened on more than one application). I've got about a dozen corrupt files/lost work from this happening just in the past year's time.

So when you talk about OSX being more stable because of the hardware/software being in close relation to each other, I just have to laugh.

As far as security goes, that's something I wouldn't argue as much, though I think when people talk about Windows security, they tend to forget just how large the user base really is. There are a lot more people writing viruses for Windows than the other platforms combined.

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Carbon
I run both XP and OSX at home/work, and I find them both to be roughly the same. They are both great OSs and run stable MOST of the time.

Might I enquire which is which? XP at home and OSX at work? Secondly what is your background. Or what would you consider your background? Are you traditionally a Windows or a Mac guy?

Originally posted by Carbon
When OSX crashes, it crashes in a hard way, not easy to recover from and almost always requiring a hard reboot.

I guess I am lucky then. My Windows XP box does reboots all by itself almost daily! It really does save time. Anyhow, with my experience it is pretty damn hard to screw a *nix system. Something short of actually fusing the platters of a hard disk etc and the system should be easily recoverable.(And I actually got to see a set of IBM SCSI drives who's platters had fused into one piece due to being pushed to hard. :lol:) If more people took the time and partitioned their Windows systems like most *nix systems though Windows would be almost as easy to recover.

Originally posted by Carbon
This happens much more often on OSX than on my XP workstation. OSX also has annoying habit of corrupting files because it often crashes while writing to disk (has happened on more than one application). I've got about a dozen corrupt files/lost work from this happening just in the past year's time.

I have had that many in a day from XP. ;)

Originally posted by Carbon
So when you talk about OSX being more stable because of the hardware/software being in close relation to each other, I just have to laugh.

Any system if not properly maintained is prone to deterioration. In my experience though *nix can simply go longer.

Originally posted by Carbon
As far as security goes, that's something I wouldn't argue as much,

If only Microsoft would adopt the default deny methodology. That would go a long way.

Originally posted by Carbon
though I think when people talk about Windows security, they tend to forget just how large the user base really is.

90%+ of the user base is repressed daily. How could we forget. :D

Originally posted by Carbon
There are a lot more people writing viruses for Windows than the other platforms combined.

That in and of itself is no big thing though. The issue is that combined with Microsoft's other actions and their seeming over all innability to secure their systems in any way. Sure more people write viruses for Windows. But don't more people purchase Windows as well? With the money Microsoft makes off of sales of Windows you would think they could hire a crack team of security experts etc to evaluate the system and advise them on basic security. Because most of the catastrophic Windows failures are due to stupid mistakes on the part of Microsoft. Port 139 anyone? Intergrating the browser with every other part of the OS anyone? Default allow anyone? Sure more people write viruses for Windows. But Microsoft has a responsibility to respod to that. To which they have proven wholly inadequate. Microsoft sat on their thumbs all this last December rather than adress current vulnerabilities or some that happened 7 months ago. And that's not the sad part. It's that people simply accept this as normal. That this is the way things should be.

In the end it does not matter what system you run. There will always be issues. Whether it is the general instability of Windows or it's massive vulnerabilities. Or the general lack of user space software for the 5% or so non Windows user market. :D In the end though it is handy to have both on hand. Just considder yourself better than average for considering an alternative. ;)

[theReal]

Maybe we can put it this way: Windows needs better user knowledge and maintenance than a Mac system - but then it's not less stable.

At my workplace, there's not too much administration for single computers (just enough to keep the network running) and all the PCs in use are readymade (something like Dell or Acer workstations). In an environment like this, Macs are better, because all the PCs here are just crap.

It's something else with my own PC. WinXP Pro SP1 is now running fine for about 8 months and I can cut for hours with Premiere Pro without a single problem. It never crashes, it just does what I expect it to do (like most of the Macs and almost none of the PCs here at work do...)
In my opinion, this is due to my carefully chosing the hardware (stable chipset, good board, good Corsair RAM, watercooling, good case cooling, good PSU.
Basically, I do the same what the apple people do when building Macs: Use hardware that is know to run perfectly with the software.

[Scoobydeux]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
You don't need tons of crappy/good programs. Only one good one.


Great! So when I am editing my home DV format, and I want to import a clip from a DVD, and then a clip from DIVX I pulled off the net, and incorporate them all into a custom DVD without pre-canned menus, but ones I can actually control, there is one program to do all that?

Not being synical, I really want to know. (remember, I started this...) I am just a messaround home user, but I can do all the above with the many freeware hacks floating around, it just takes me a while to remember which ones I have to use, and the process is somewhat dirty. Have you found your process on the mac easier?

Scoobydeux

[theReal]

I think Neo Neko meant you don't need tons of programs for one purpose, just one that does the job. Of course you need different programs for different jobs :)

BUT - let's take as an example DVD backup from DVD-9 to DVD-5:
On the Mac, I can use DVD2One, which is a great program - but on the PC I also have DVDShrink which is as good as DVD2One, but it's free!
So, I can chose between more good programs (and probably find more freeware stuff) on the PC platform.

From what I know, Mac users mostly don't care about stuff like that - what they use are the big program packages: Adobe Photoshop, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio.
I recently told a colleague that there was a better MPEG2 encoder for the Mac than the one that comes with Final Cut Pro 4 (I read about this in c't, a good German computer magazine). He said he wasn't interested much because he does not want to use an external encoder - too much hassles. This is what I think is a typical Mac user's opinion "start that thing up, use a good program to get your work done, don't care about the rest"

Some Windows users like us people on this forum think different, as well as Linux users.

I absolutely agree that all people who don't want to care much about how their computer works should better get a Mac, not a PC (I mean all those unfortunate people who have to consult some hotline as soon as their monitor resolution is changed, LOL)

[Jaw3000]

Just thought I'd get into the conversation. I'm a long time Mac user who uses both Mac OS X and Win XP. I do most of my encoding with Win, not because the Mac can't handle it or there aren't any apps. available, but because I have an older Mac with a very small HD. Hell, if I had a faster Mac and the 100GB HD I have in my PC, I'd only use my Mac for encoding. Encoding actually seems somewhat faster on the Mac in my tests.

As far as apps. go, there are dozens of freeware/shareware ripping and encoding apps. available for the Mac, with more appearing every day (check out Versiontracker.com). There are even more apps. coming over from Linux, such as Mencoder and FFMpeg that are great, stable, and have good native GUI's. You can also use the command line and/or X11 if you are familiar with Unix. Also, take a look at Sorceforge for new Mac OS X projects and the Fink project for some ports from Linux. As someone mentioned, DivX and 3ivX are available for Mac OS X and are fast and stable. You really don't need VirtualDub on the Mac, as you can just use QuickTime for editing and then encoding to DivX or another codec (many of the same features as VD, just easier). I think there is actually better support of some audio codecs, like Ogg and ACC, than on Windows. And the video pipeline (QT) seems to be more advanced and more stable than DirectShow or VfW. As far as commercial editing (and encoding) apps., the Mac has Apple's iMovie and Final Cut, as well as Adobe Premier, Avid, and Cleaner. I have tried out most of the NLE on Win (such as Pinnacle Studio) and keep coming back to iMovie and Final Cut.

I believe there are just as many similar, if not better, open source encoding/ripping apps. available for OS X and Linux as there are for Windows. BTW, I'd love to help out developing a QT Xvid codec for the Mac, but I'm not a developer (wish I was). Anyway,

Doom 9, I'd love to see a Mac forum topic (I think that's what you were referring too?)! A Linux topic also might make sense with all the development and activity being done under Linux. Maybe, in the future, we could even find some experts to write some guides for Mac OS X and maybe Linux tools. That would be cool!

I hope this helps!
-Jaws

[calinb]

I'm an occasional 800MHz G3 iBook user. (I got it for my wife :))

I looked for easy to use software that wouldn't cost any $$$. (Macs are expensive enough as it is!) I wanted it to be able to do basic DVD ripping, recompression, and playback of DivX/mp3/avi, DivX/aac/ac3/mkv, Nero/aac/mp4, and other occasional ogg/ogm and mpeg4 video variants. I wanted true full-screen playback without spending more money on Quicktime Pro. (Geesh, Apple -- Windows has always bundled a full-screen player!)

Here's the software I installed and kept:

1. "forty-two" - Simple DIV4/mp3 ripper and encoder. Actually fast enough to be tolerable on the G3.
2. DVDBackup - Rip a DVD to the hard disk (VIDEO_TS)
3. OSeX - Rip DVD streams.
4. VideoLAN Client - DVD navigation and playback (barely/semi-acceptable on an 800MHz G3) and HE-AAC (in latest release).
5. mplayer for OS X - Playback of everything else. Works better than any other player on this slow G3. Plays Nero HE-AAC, but undersamples it, killing highs, I think.

One thing I've not found is a way to read XCDs or even dat files. Yeah, dat2file makes them readable, but that's a pain.

My conclusions:

1. Easier for a noob to get working but more limited than a windows PC. Things usually "just work" on the Mac w/o much hassle.
2. OS X is no more stable than an up to date Win2K or XP machine. Maybe less stable in some ways (try recovering from an attempt to execute a program on a remote samba share!) It doesn't blue screen, (neither does Windows any more, mostly) but OS X will grind to a halt. I virtually never have to resort to the power or reset switch in Windows anymore, but I have occasionally needed it with the Mac.
3. UNIX terminal window is cool, useful, and powerful (but it won't fix problem 2 above--not even with kill -all!)
4. If you use Windows Nero Recode2, use the Quicktime profile.
5. I sure wish the G4 iBook had been available in August! (Much better for video!)

mencoder is probably worthwile, but too complicated for my wife. Quicktime and quicktime encoders cost $$$ so I didn't install them.

[dvddavid]

Mac based graphics and mutli-media applictions have always had a reputation as being more stable and user friendly. Macs were always the choice of the serious designer. The Mac engineers lead the way. The PCs chugged along.

Ok .. we know the rest of the story.

Just wanted to add my experience building with WIN XP on an AMD Platform. I've built three video/encoding/authoring stations and yes there have been challenges along the way with hardware/software compatibility and driver issues, etc. In the end we have systems built to our specifications that handle almost anything we throw at them. Although, one can always "Need More SPEED."

AMD Powered Win XP Systems (3)

Tyan MB, Dual Processor - MXP-2200
1.5 gb DDR
Canopus DV Storm2
ATI 9600Pro

Asus MB - XP-2800
1.0 gb DDR
ATI 8500DV

ECS MB - XP-2000
1.0 gb DDR
Asus 7100Pro

David