open standard vs. closed format discussion (be aware sometimes childish)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
Sirber
of course you dont have to use reals aac codec!
simply use neros aac codec and enjoy multichannel and 48khz (in realplayer or whereever else you want to play it)

mpeg-4 gives you the freedom of choice (once again thats the beauty of it ;) ) Nicely said bond!



edit by bond: i changed the title from "damn, unnecessary "which codec brings more freedom" discussion" to "open standard vs. closed format discussion (beaware sometimes childish)" as the topic itself is really interesting imo

[Sirber]

@bond & SeeMoreDigital

does MPEG4 works whitout external GUIs? does MPEG4 works well for low-bitrate? Is that what you call freedom? :D

[bond]

Originally posted by Sirber
does MPEG4 works whitout external GUIs?damn sirber, a mpeg-4 codec is not so different technically comapred to the rv9 codec :rolleyes:
you can use it with vfw interface (xvid, divx5), with commandline (ffmpeg), which means "without external gui", with directshow (nero digital), own interfaces, hell whatever way you want...

you can write guis as much as you want for any mpeg-4 codec, hell there is no difference to rv9 when it comes to that

no wait, there is a difference, you can only use the rv9/10 codec in a way real makes possible, but everyone can change the open source xvid mpeg-4 codec to whatever way he wants to use it

thats freedom :D

you think RealAnime and Surreal IU give you freedom? only on the surface maybe, behind the scene its always the same codec

does MPEG4 works well for low-bitrate?sure, mpeg-4 was also designed to work great even on ultra-low bitrates (ie on mobile phones, which is already supported by some mobiles)

maybe sometimes someone will start tuning xvid to work great also on the low-bitrates you love (or tune it for animes), atm it more focus on higher bitrates, which doesnt mean that getting similar results as rv9 on low bitrates isnt possible...

thats freedom :D

[Sirber]

by "low bitrate", I mean with quality lol :)

So just because RV9/10 is not VFW it's not freedom? Also, are all codecs you uses legal? Do you own all licences for MPEG4, AAC, and propitary GUIs like ND?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
...maybe sometimes someone will start tuning xvid to work great also on the low-bitrates you love (or tune it for animes), atm it more focus on higher bitrates, which doesnt mean that getting similar results as rv9 on low bitrates isnt possible... Yep, there is a lot more improvement that can be gained from Mpeg4 at low bitrates. However, in order to get this improvement (without waiting for days for the encode to appear) we are going to need faster PC's!

I read a report the other day, that intimated another 25% compression improvement could be had out of Mpeg2!

Cheers

[bond]

Originally posted by Sirber
by "low bitrate", I mean with qualitysure maybe someone will release a mpeg-4 codec explicitely tuned for low bitrates...

So just because RV9/10 is not VFW it's not freedom?you have more freedom if you can choose which interface to use ;)
and with ffmpeg we already have a commandline mpeg-4 encoder too similar to helixproducer...

Do you own all licences for MPEG4, AAC, and propitary GUIs like ND?ND is not only a gui, its an own mpeg-4 codec (btw also usable without recode2 via the directshow interface)!

there is only one rv9 codec, but there are plenty of different mpeg-4 codecs, which are all compliant to each other...
imagine real opening the specs of their rv9/10 codec and other people writing their own rv9/10 codec (maybe using vfw), than there would be 2 real codecs, but both compliant with each other
_and_ in that situation you would experience the freedom to choose too ;)

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
However, in order to get this improvement (without waiting for days for the encode to appear) we are going to need faster PC's!where did you get this info???
i doubt that more blurring means needing more cpu power ;)

but lets stop this discussion, we dont want to hijack a rv thread with mpeg-4 issues, ok :)

[Tommy Carrot]

Originally posted by bond

sure maybe someone will release a mpeg-4 codec explicitely tuned for low bitrates...

H.264 is the part of the mpeg-4 standard. I suppose we can assume it would compete well against rv10 at low bitrates, and against current mpeg4 codecs where high quality matters. Too bad the development seems to be very slow, but that was the case with AAC for many years, then suddenly it appeared everywhere.

/Ok, i know, there is no need for h.264, since ON2 stated VP6 is clearly superior to it. :D/

EDIT:

but lets stop this discussion, we dont want to hijack a rv thread with mpeg-4 issues, ok

You're right, apologies for being offtopic. :D

[bilu]

Originally posted by bond
you can write guis as much as you want for any mpeg-4 codec, hell there is no difference to rv9 when it comes to that

no wait, there is a difference, you can only use the rv9/10 codec in a way real makes possible, but everyone can change the open source xvid mpeg-4 codec to whatever way he wants to use it

thats freedom :D This has been discussed more than once in other threads, and it's not very polite to hijack the Real 10 thread this way :angry:

As a conclusion (resuming what was said in other threads) and an invitation to continue this subject elsewhere:

RV licensing means closed-source codec, open-source encoder, free player and encoder.

MPEG-4 licensing means open-source codec and encoder/decoder royalties. There is no warranty that they won't come over XVID and FFMPEG one day and sue them - the only way they get though this is through unofficial binaries for "educational purposes". Of course everyone can make their own MPEG-4 codec, all data needed is available, but you have to pay royalties to use it. So don't turn unofficial stuff into an advantage please. If you want free, legal binaries of MPEG-4 use DivX Adware version. Or compile XVID yourself.

At least Real Video has no adware :)

Bilu

[bond]

Originally posted by bilu
This has been discussed more than once in other threads, and it's not very polite to hijack the Real 10 thread this way :angry: bilu, you are late, i already wrote above that the real 10 thread shouldnt be hijacked with this issue...

i now splitted the discussion to bring an order into it

[bond]

Originally posted by bilu
RV licensing means closed-source codec, open-source encoder, free player and encoder.

MPEG-4 licensing means open-source codec and encoder/decoder royalties. So don't turn unofficial stuff into an advantage please. If you want free, legal binaries of MPEG-4 use DivX Adware version. Or compile XVID yourself.hm mpeg-4 doesnt necessarily mean that you have to pay something, even if you want to be 100% sure to be on the legal side (we all are no lawyers i guess)

for example the 3ivx mpeg-4 codecs are 100% legal, 100% without adware and 100% available for free

open source doesnt mean that the usage is illegal, mpeg-4 doesnt mean that you have to pay for it

Originally posted by Tommy Carrot
H.264 is the part of the mpeg-4 standard ... Too bad the development seems to be very slow, but that was the case with AAC for many years, then suddenly it appeared everywhere.yes, i guess if the first firm jumps on it and tries to push it the stone will begin to roll

/Ok, i know, there is no need for h.264, since ON2 stated VP6 is clearly superior to it. good claim, as there isnt any really tuned h.264 codec around atm :D

[communist]

Originally posted by bilu
If you want free, legal binaries of MPEG-4 use DivX Adware version.
Why not use the Basic version that does encode and decode DivX (MPEG4) and has no spyware?!
:confused:

[Sirber]

coz basic suxxors :D

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=16082&package_id=12912&release_id=187485

only sources? where can I get a binary version?

[bond]

:search: ;)

[communist]

The point was only to use legal & free DivX / MPEG4 binaries... it may suck but its legal :p

[Sirber]

this is a build of ffmpeg for windows compiled via mingw32. oss audio, video4linux, network, zlib and vorbis support have been disabled.

ffmpeg.zip - 2002-12-04 10:00 PM EST

outdated...

[edit]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=425274#post425274

all links outdated or dead.

:search: you said... :p

[bond]

normally i would have to strike you for violating rule 1) as you didnt search good enough :p

btw: what doom9 not knows, knows google ;)

btw2: as far as i know you can also control divx5 via commandline

[Sirber]

recommanding DIVX5 to a RV9 nerd like me have 100% chances of failure :o

[bond]

show me one post in which i recommend divx5! :D

[Sirber]

btw2: as far as i know you can also control divx5 via commandlineanother mission well done :D

[bond]

this has nothing to do with recommending divx5, i list this under informing uninformed people ;)

[Sirber]

XviD fans won't like your saying about DIVX5..., coz it's someting DIVX can do and not XviD... watch out ;)

[bilu]

http://www.mpegla.com/mpeg4v/m4v_qa.html

Q: How are reasonable royalties apportioned throughout the product chain?

A: Rather than place the entire royalty in one place (e.g., on the decoder or encoder manufacturer), royalties are also payable at those parts of the product chain where value is received and those who receive the value can build the royalties into their business models. For example, encoder and decoder manufacturers pay royalties for the right to make and sell decoders and encoders, but video providers who receive remuneration for offering MPEG-4 video either directly (e.g., subscription fees) or indirectly (e.g., advertising fees) pay a royalty for the right to use the decoders and encoders to receive and transmit the remunerated video. Where video is not offered for remuneration, however, no additional royalty is payable. Advertising or promoting one’s own products is not treated as a remunerated use for which royalties are payable; neither are private communications among end users. So open-source MPEG-4 binaries from XVID and FFMPEG are legal after all :)

Just don't forget that MPEG-LA is a company consortium, not a company that lives from video codecs as On2 or Real. Innovation has a cost. Or else we'd all be stuck to MPEG-LA forever.


Bilu

[Sirber]

I've seen some site selling XviD videos, so it's illegal :)

[bond]

Yeah, MPEG-4 wins again!!!

USA, USA, USA :D

[bilu]

Originally posted by bond
USA, USA, USA :D "Region codes, region codes, region codes" :devil:

Bilu

[bond]

Originally posted by bilu
"Region codes, region codes, region codes"mpeg-4/mp4 doesnt know funky things like region codes, hell it doesnt even know drm

M P 4, M P 4 !


ok guys time to fight one of the most effective weapons of mass destruction, time to destroy the alcohol reserves :D

see ya

[Sirber]

you mean drink? :D

[bond]

no we wash our feets with it :D

[Sirber]

remind me to never to go to one of your party :p

[Koepi]

What are you guys trying to do here?

I can't get rid of the feeling this is a childish "i love RV, so i have to convince other at whatever costs to use my prefered solutions". And vice versa of course.

I still don't see a reason why there isn't a place for every way - mpeg4 folks do mid to high bitrate encodes and like playing around with sources. Others just want to encode i.e. low bitrate. A clear area reserved for RV or maybe M$ as well.

I don't want to go deeper in here because then I would reach your level of close-to-insults.

So, is it possible to make some sense in this thread or do you want to continue training rethorics here?

Regards
Koepi

[Sirber]

sorry Koepi, but this all started by "mpeg-4 is freedom", not by "RV rulz everything". You should read before jumping to conclusion ;)

I can't get rid of the feeling this is a childish "i love RV, so i have to convince other at whatever costs to use my prefered solutions". And vice versa of course.You should change "RV" for "whatever mpeg4 codec you like". :D

[Koepi]

I wanted to add that by "And vice versa" and thought it will bring the point i want to make across(? german idioms sound really bad when translated word-by-word ;) ).

A small but bad typo in my post, which I apologize for and will correct it immediatly: of course i mean "I still don't see a reason why there isn't a place for every way -..."

Sorry for not properly re-reading my post before sending.

Regards
Koepi

[Sirber]

lol

anyway, you can remove/close this thread if you want. It was not my idea so don't blame me!!!! :D

which codec brings more freedom makes no sence to begin with...

[unmei]

i found it an interesting read, so please don't remove it (locking is ok with me). An the topic should be clear enough to remind you to enter with protection clothes and not take it too seriously.

[Human_USB]

I love RV for low bitrate animes rips and I love XVID for High bitrate rips. So learn to love people..... use both.

[Sirber]

I'll have to give XviD a try soon... to test Surreal UI :D

[bilu]

Originally posted by bond
Yeah, MPEG-4 wins again!!!

USA, USA, USA :D USA???

http://www.mpegla.com/mpeg4v/m4v_licensors.html

Following is a list of licensors of patents included in the MPEG-4 Visual Patent Portfolio License. Their commitment is to provide fair, reasonable, nondiscriminatory licensing of MPEG-4 Visual technology's essential patents.

Canon, Inc.
Curitel Communications, Inc.
France Télécom, société anonyme
Fujitsu Limited
GE Technology Development, Inc.
General Instrument Corporation
Hitachi, Ltd.
KDDI Corporation
Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Microsoft Corporation
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Oki Electric Industry Co.
Robert Bosch GmbH
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
SANYO Electric Co., Ltd.
Sharp Kabushiki Kaisha
Sony Corporation
Telenor Communication II AS
Toshiba Corporation
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.
Repeat after me: "Japan,Japan,Japan" :devil:

LOL

EDIT: Most exceptions here seem to be european ;)

Bilu

[weidai]

Originally posted by Koepi
I still don't see a reason why there isn't a place for every way - mpeg4 folks do mid to high bitrate encodes and like playing around with sources. Others just want to encode i.e. low bitrate. A clear area reserved for RV or maybe M$ as well.

What does low, medium, and high mean here? Can you suggest a crossover point between MPEG4 and RV9 in terms of bits per pixel or some other appropriate measurement?

[Sirber]

for me low bitrate goes from 300kbps to 450kbps, including sound of course :), mid from 450 to 1000 and high, 1000+ :), but that's all IMHO :D

[bond]

well i dont think that saying an open standard, like mpeg-4 or xiph's ogg framework (!), can give you more freedom than closed specs, proprieatary formats like wm9 or reals stuff (tough real is not comparable to m$, using aac, helixcommunity, etc...) "makes no sense"

as i already wrote an open standard
- allows the implementation of open source codecs
- allows a broder usage of the formats
- prevents monopoly situations
- which means in the long run the prices for the customers will be lower because of more competition !!!
- offers the freedom to choose between different implementations (not only guis)
- other things i forgot now

but to really get all advantages out of a standard you will not come around using the standards container too, ie putting vorbis into avi lowers the interoperability between vorbis supporting implementations compared to using .ogg/.ogm, which means it lessens (is that an english word :D ) the advantages an open standard can offer (or putting aac into .ra for example)
which of course doesnt mean that containers that offer the possibility to store everything in them are a bad thing!

apart from that message most of the thread is nonsense and shouldnt be taken too serious :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Jeez!

It's a miracle or something out of the Twilight Zone....

Coz I really don't remember starting this thread!

Could be the drink then. Or maybe those cod liver oil capsules I took yesterday (that are supposed to help with my memory).....

Nope. I still can't remember starting this thread!

[bilu]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Nope. I still can't remember starting this thread!

You didn't :D
Bond did it. He's a moderator after all. ;)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=425121#post425121


Bilu

[bond]

of course i did it :rolleyes:

as the discussion didnt really fit into the "real 10" thread

[bilu]

Originally posted by bond
well i dont think that saying an open standard, like mpeg-4 or xiph's ogg framework (!), can give you more freedom than closed specs, proprieatary formats like wm9 or reals stuff (tough real is not comparable to m$, using aac, helixcommunity, etc...) "makes no sense"

as i already wrote an open standard
- allows the implementation of open source codecs
- allows a broder usage of the formats
- prevents monopoly situations
- which means in the long run the prices for the customers will be lower because of more competition !!!
- offers the freedom to choose between different implementations (not only guis)
- other things i forgot now

but to really get all advantages out of a standard you will not come around using the standards container too, ie putting vorbis into avi lowers the interoperability between vorbis supporting implementations compared to using .ogg/.ogm, which means it lessens (is that an english word :D ) the advantages an open standard can offer (or putting aac into .ra for example)
which of course doesnt mean that containers that offer the possibility to store everything in them are a bad thing! Look here http://www.mpegla.com/mpeg4v/m4v_licensors.html and tell me how many of these companies live exclusively from codecs as Real or On2. Most of the companies from MPEG-LA consortium are electronics manufacturers that needed new video standards to sell new equipments. M$ isn't here because its business is software, so they wouldn't gain nothing from it.

About containers, both Real and On2 are very nice examples: On2 uses VFW so it integrates with everything, Real fits with Vorbis and Matroska.

What I really would like to see is a subtitle standard for new codecs... :rolleyes:


Bilu

[bilu]

There is a good reason why MPEG-2 seduces more the movie industry than MPEG-4: it requires larger media and recorders are more expensive, hence slowing piracy. Now that DVD recorder are cheap they going to look for DV encoding or something like that :D

Bilu

[bond]

Originally posted by bilu
Most of the companies from MPEG-LA consortium are electronics manufacturers that needed new video standards to sell new equipments.sure, why do think the a/v market begins to get interesting also for bigger companies? because they only earn money if people will have to buy new hardware players, new "dvds" (in the new standard)
imagine how much the industry earned because of dvd following vhs? and now think about what they will earn with a dvd successor? i am 100% sure that there will be a dvd successor standard

imo the question will be if that will be by using wm9 or mpeg-4 and i prefer mpeg-4 for the reasons i listed already

M$ isn't here because its business is software, so they wouldn't gain nothing from it.lol, thats a little bit of a naive point of view
now you get wm9 absolutely for free (they allow implementing their codecs for free on hardware aso...)

but what if in 5 years wm9 (or a backwards compatible wm10/11...) was a big success and everyone will use wm9 like mp3 is used today
do you think that m$ will still allow the implementation of their codecs on hardware for free? do you think that they will still spread their codecs for free? do you think that m$ will allow the hollywood studios to use the wm9 format for free?

no and m$ will have the force to do so as they will have a monopoly situation in the a/v market (similar what they have today with windows...)

of course things like vorbis, mpeg-4 aso will also exist but only interesting for freaks, like the one on doom9 :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Oh, thank god!

I thought I was going 'insane in the membrane (insane in the brain)'

Nearly booked myself in at the doctors for another prescription appointment!

Joking apart, I am really not all that well at the moment (I've been diagnosed as suffering from ME/CFS) and I've started noticing that my memory plays tricks with me quite a bit! :confused:

I guess my main problem is that, I hate spending all this time at home with nothing to do!

So yes I'll take credit for this (most excellent) thread...

Cheers guys

[bilu]

Originally posted by bond
lol, thats a little bit of a naive point of view
now you get wm9 absolutely for free (they allow implementing their codecs for free on hardware aso...) You didn't understood me - I was saying that M$ would gain nothing from being part of the MPEG-LA consortium, not that they can't make money out of Windows Media ;)


Bilu

[bilu]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I've been diagnosed as suffering from ME/CFS) and I've started noticing that my memory plays tricks with me quite a bit! :confused: What's ME/CFS?

Bilu

[bond]

Originally posted by bilu
You didn't understood me - I was saying that M$ would gain nothing from being part of the MPEG-LA consortium, not that they can't make money out of Windows Media ;)hm ic
m$ once started to develop an own mpeg-4 codec (ms mpeg-4 aka divx3.11 we all know :D ) but as most already know it isnt mpeg-4 spec compliant lol
i guess they stopped the development on it cause they thought they can earn more money if they push a closed proprieatary format

they are still member of the mpeg industry forum, but i doubt that they influence the activites in this forum in a positive way for mpeg-4 :sly:

well thats how business goes...


I've been diagnosed as suffering from ME/CFS) and I've started noticing that my memory plays tricks with me quite a bit! :eek: :(