Firmware patch for dual layer discs

[moumiaq]

Is this true?Can a firmware patch for the current DVD-R/+R writers make possible to write on dual layer disc?:confused:

[mikegun]

hi,

the recent 8x burners should be capable of burning dual layer media ... - if - they provide customers with a new firmware

regards,

mikegun

[The Edge]

Apparently in some modals it might be possible but I feel it's just a myth :(

[jfcarbel]

I don't believe any firmware would work unless the onboard chip and its laser allow changing the pitch of the laser. Since this would add cost to the design, I highly doubt any of these features are in existing burners. Plus manufacturers want to sell you a new dual layer drive, so what motivation would they have had to add this cost to a DVD-R burner when competitive pricing on these is tough now.

The way that the second layer is burnt is by adjusting the pitch of the laser to it hits the second layer.

Now if someone knows that current drives have this ability, please let me know.

[Kedirekin]

I believe all burners already have the ability to change the laser focus. Remember that all burners are also readers, and they can read dual layer disks, so they have to be able to change the laser focus to the second layer.

Of course burning DL disks is probably a bit more complicated than just changing the laser focus half way through a burn.

[mornstar]

Originally posted by Kedirekin
I believe all burners already have the ability to change the laser focus. Remember that all burners are also readers, and they can read dual layer disks, so they have to be able to change the laser focus to the second layer.

Of course burning DL disks is probably a bit more complicated than just changing the laser focus half way through a burn.

Yes, Most of the new burners (no only the 8x ref. to NEC 1300)


Simplified, a DVD recordable contains a layer of a chemical substrate that is hit (burned) by a laser. The laser creates small holes in this chemical substrate. This way it creates so called pits and lands, for normal PC users better known as 1’s and 0’s. A dual layer contains two layers of this chemical and by adapting the laser intensity both layers can be written. Of course this is a very complicated process and requires a lot of precision and the right materials to make sure that after the data has been burned, it can still be read back without errors.

Reading back has been the biggest challenge in development of the format, as current DVD players were not designed to read back dual layer DVD recordable discs. However they are able to read back pressed (DVD-ROM) dual layer discs, so the developers have been focusing on making the DVD recordable compatible with the DVD-ROM dual layer discs.


And some nice news from Verbatim, their dl dvd-r (or +r, i don't know) is on schedule (spring 2004) So i think al the dl supporting devices will soon get a firmware.

More info like this quote coming from CDFREAKS.com (http://www.cdfreaks.com)

[jfcarbel]

Kedirekin - good point about the ability to read dual layers.

At CES Pioneer demonstrated a regular A06 with updated firmware burning a dual layer, so I guess it can be done. But I have a feeling that it will not be as accepting with all types of media and compatibility. Article follows - excerpt from cdfreaks

"Pioneer has demonstrated dual layer burning during the CES, the technology exhibition in Las Vegas. The company succeeded recording to two layers DVD-R in October 2003 and now firstly publicly demonstrated the technology. In the booth of the RWPPI (RW Products Promotion Initiative) they wrote 100 MB to each layer. The discs were read back by a normal DVD player.

Intresting however is that the company used a Pioneer A06 burner with only a modified firmware. According to the company only a firmware modification is needed in order to make a DVD-R drive write dual layer discs. The disc was written at 2 speed. The DVD-R dual layer specifications have not yet been passed by the DVD Forum."

[mikegun]

sounds good. is there any chance to get a device that will burn
both formats (+/- DL) ??

regards,

mikegun

[fairuza]

So if an A06 can do dual layer, can an A04?

[Doom9]

So if an A06 can do dual layer, can an A04?No, the A05's laser is not powerful enough. In fact I'm pretty surprised that it works with the A06. They only showed writing of a limited amount of data.. who knows, maybe writing an entire disc would change the situation. As far as I know (and I did write that in the news), only the current laser generation is up to writing dual layer.. but it takes more than a laser.

Assuming updating is possible, why do you think you'll get it for free? We've seen it happen many times... burners capable of dual format were released as single format burners and there never was an official upgrade. The only time a drive got more features was when the DRU500a got 4x DVD+R capabilities via a firmware upgrade (but I don't know about all burners). The most recent example of "could most likely handle X but manufacturer decided to release a new device" is the new LiteOn drive that does 8x DVD-R whereas the two existing models do not.

Or, they could charge for the firmware update (similar to OS upgrades for PDAs.. those are usually not free either).
I think the "new drive" approach is more likely though. Sure, your customers will love you if you get them such an exciting feature for free.. but your competition is making money with the same thing and in the end the shareholders want to see some dough.

[alexnoe]

No, the A05's laser is not powerful enough. In fact I'm pretty surprised that it works with the A06.How do you know that *any* numbers of required laser powers you might have found or received from somewhere are true? You know, the Pioneer A03's laser is strong enough it fry its own PUH...

[Matthew]

Well regardless of whether a firmware upgrade will be provided, at least this indicates the drives will be reasonably priced, I was pessimistically expecting them to be whole new pieces of spanfastic technology and as such priced through the roof. That makes a quick upgrade for people with older (e.g. 2x) burners worthwhile. I suppose the discs may cost a fortune though.

[jfcarbel]

Matt - The disks won't be bad either. I read they do not need to retool the manufacturing lines much since the recordable dual layers are manufactured similar to the DVD dual layers. One executive stated that a reasonable price should be the cost of what 2 DVD recordables are today. I would gladly pay $2.50 for a dual layer Ritek :)

Also like you said the drives are not much different so prices should not be any higher than existing recorders, unless they decide to guage us at the beginning, which I don't think will happen because the market is so competitive right now and nobody wants to miss the boat for profits.

I had only wished that the Dual layer had come out with at least 4X record. Since with 2 layers it is going to take twice as long.

BTW - Does a spec for each X burning speed need to be approved?

[alexnoe]

BTW - Does a spec for each X burning speed need to be approved?Yes.

[Matthew]

jfcarbel, thanks that's good news. Still perhaps a little too expensive to start with to use on all releases (especially for people like me who do movie-only rips). Might be a while before cheaper manufacturer's such as Ritek produce the discs though (I must sound like a real pessimist :D).

[atreides93]

I'm rather amazed by this...the articles I read a few years ago about DVD-R suggested that it would be impossible to have dual layer dvd-r's...I suppose they came up with a new trick to do this.
Pretty cool.

But I think doom is right..why would they offer this for free as a firmware update? No way...do you remember Ricoh with their 6x cd burners? All the 4x model needed to be a 6x drive was a firmware update, but Ricoh instead sold it as a new drive. Many were able to get the firmware and hack it so it allowed you to update the 4x drive, and it worked great!

[alexnoe]

With Pioneer having proven that current drives can do it, they would hardly be believed if they later claimed that it would not work...
Philips however has not yet made any final statement on this matter.

[Kedirekin]

There is one reason to offer a firmware fix (or more accurately, announce a firmware fix) - to gain market share early. If a manufacturer announced today that a particular drive will support DL burning at a later date, you could reasonably expect that people would prefer to buy that drive.

Of course, as soon as one manufacturer announces support via firmware, other manufacturer would follow suit, and knowing that the first manufacturer might decide there is no advantage.

[Topaz]

Originally posted by atreides93
But I think doom is right..why would they offer this for free as a firmware update? No way...do you remember Ricoh with their 6x cd burners? All the 4x model needed to be a 6x drive was a firmware update, but Ricoh instead sold it as a new drive. Many were able to get the firmware and hack it so it allowed you to update the 4x drive, and it worked great!


I can think of one good reason and that is to actually be able to sell some of the dvd dual layer discs. I mean it will take years before there are as many dual layer recorders as single layer recorders but if they can somehow upgrade existing burners they can immediately begin to sell dual layer discs in big quantities.

And many of the manufacturers of burners will also make and sell the dual layer discs.