DCMA NEWS .. Kazaa not commiting copyright 'infridgement'

[TheDigster]

..Just wanted everyone here to know ..The highest court in The Netherlands has come to the conclusion in a case with "Buma Stemra" (organisation for the protection/compansation of Lost income due to copying) against Kazza that Kazza isn't commiting copyright infridgement. (The users do).....good news to your DCMA rights...

edit: corrected title

[lovelorn_angel]

so....how would this affect 'Kazaa' users....and where does Kazaa Lite fit in??
Just curious!!
L.A.

[Doom9]

but uploading is still illegal.. this decision only means that the company behind kazaa cannot be held responsible for what their users do (which is a good thing). Copyright law still holds. But the latest two court decisions in P2P matters are definitely a good thing. Regardless, you cannot denounce copyright holders rights, it's just a matter of how they enforce them.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I don't want to be a kill joy but.....

This whole issue about the legalities of downloading audio and video over the net could be solved quite easily if it was made illegal to store any form of copyrighted audio or video on a computer.

If audio and video was only allowed to be stored on disc, tape and maybe even portable hard drives. The industry would not be in the massive mess it is now!

After all it's far more difficult for pirates to distribute hookie audio and video files when it's in a solid form... Especially when they would have to spend money themselves in the form of raw materials, equipment, people and distribution!

So like I say. Why not just ban the storage of copyrighted audio and video files on computers altogether?

I've got my flack guard up!

[Kedirekin]

Is that meant to be a joke? You sound serious, but what you're saying is so funny. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

To continue the humor (assuming humor was intended), why not make movies and music illegal all together? That would solve the problem at the source. Anybody caught with music or video (or caught singing or acting) could be shot on sight.

That sounds like a very King Solomon solution to me. People can't steal it if it doesn't exist - just cut the baby in half.

[TheDigster]

See More digital --> "If audio and video was only allowed to be stored on disc, tape and maybe even portable hard drives. The industry would not be in the massive mess it is now!"..

--I think he's serious tho.. :
How/Why would that be the case? If it indeed was forbidden to store any kind of copyrighted material to a HDD it would not stop users from actually doing it...
(come to think of it.. wouldn't a law like that prohibit someone from installing Windows/office/whatever peace of copyrighted software???):)

Wow.. a reply from Doom9 himself... I'm honored..

[SeeMoreDigital]

Nope I'm serious, I'm afraid!

God forbid I would ever want this to happen. I'm just saying why was this sort of a ban ever made or even discussed as a possibility!

I'm not saying, ban the backing up of audio and video material you own (under a 'fair use' policy) because you can save such backups to CD or DVD R/RW, tape, portable media player, smart card etc.

All I'm saying is, if was illegal to permanently store such media on computers, it would not end up all over the net!

There's more to a PC than just storing a whole bunch of copyrighted music and video... you have not paid for!

Cheers

[dragongodz]

"Why not just ban the storage of copyrighted audio and video files on computers altogether?"
there is no way you can be serious with that statement. i mean that means you can not backup your own dvds, cds, video captures from vhs etc even.
so you must think the DMCA doesnt go far enough since it will allow a copy of bought material to be stored on a hard drive ? oh but wait if you try and copy it to a different drive it wont work. hmm ok i bet you cant wait for all hardware and software to be DMCA compliant.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by dragongodz
"Why not just ban the storage of copyrighted audio and video files on computers altogether?"
there is no way you can be serious with that statement. i mean that means you can not backup your own dvds, cds, video captures from vhs etc even. I did not say that. By all means use a PC as a tool to backup your DVD, CD etc to another DVD, CD etc... but don't 'store' that copy on your PC.

And there are ofcourse other none PC devices that can be used to do this. It just takes longer to do and costs you more money to buy the equipment to do it!

Originally posted by dragongodz
... so you must think the DMCA doesnt go far enough since it will allow a copy of bought material to be stored on a hard drive ? oh but wait if you try and copy it to a different drive it wont work. hmm ok i bet you cant wait for all hardware and software to be DMCA compliant. No I don't. They are just playing 'catch up'. There are too many old farts running these organisations, who don't really understand how the current technology is able to work against them.

Ask yourself some questions...

Why do you want to store a 'backup' of all your 'purchased' media soley on your PC?
Why don't you want to save your 'backups' to disc - like we are all encouraged to do with our personal data anyway?
Is your PC online all the time?
Do you allow others, or intend to allow others access to your PC from an outside network?
Why don't you want to watch or listen to your 'purchased' media on an standalone/portable player... and only on a PC?

Cheers

[mpucoder]

I, for one, do not want to stare at a blank screen when I turn my computer on. Everything in it is copyrighted by someone.

[dragongodz]

"I did not say that"
yes actually you did. you said "if it was made illegal to store any form of copyrighted audio or video on a computer.".

"It just takes longer to do and costs you more money to buy the equipment to do it!"
and we should be forced to do that because of the actions of others ?

"Why do you want to store a 'backup' of all your 'purchased' media soley on your PC?"
-i dont want to really "store" it all. i do however have a few albums on my pc which i have playing while i work or surf the net. i prefer to have them playing from my pc rather than have to hook up a cd player or something near it since there really is not much room. ok i change them each month or so but that is still technically storing them and not burning them.
"Why don't you want to save your 'backups' to disc - like we are all encouraged to do with our personal data anyway?"
-because thats not why i put them on the hd for. yes i already have backups of most(especially older hard to replace ones) but thats irrelivant to my keeping them on hd for long periods.
"Is your PC online all the time?"
-no but whats that got to do with it ?
"Do you allow others, or intend to allow others access to your PC from an outside network?"
-no but again whats your point ?
"Why don't you want to watch or listen to your 'purchased' media on an standalone/portable player... and only on a PC?"
-i already said why and its not ONLY on a pc. its just for while i am working on my pc thats where i wish use them from.

making storing copyrighted video and/or audio files illegal would mean i have no choice. yes you could try and put in all sorts of provisoes but they wouldnt work because then the onus would be on you to prove you were not doing anything wrong. it used to be innocent until proven guilty but with the way big business is pushing things now its guilty first. the ability for the riaa to get user information without proof was a good example of that. ok thankfully that may be turning around but its far from over.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by mpucoder
I, for one, do not want to stare at a blank screen when I turn my computer on. Everything in it is copyrighted by someone. LOL!

Seriously though. Most pirated media, especially music, is distributed over the net. Which means it's both stored and distributed using computers.

If it was made illegal to store such content on a computer. It would be far more difficult to distribute it!

[KpeX]

@ SMD:

Be careful of following the RIAA/MPAA's ways of establishing measures that assume guilty until proven innocent.

If it was made illegal to store such content on a computer. It would be far more difficult to distribute it!

Why stop here. If guns and knives were made illegal it would be much harder to commit many crimes. If airplanes were made illegal September 11th would never happen again. Why allow computers to be legal to begin with? So many illegal acts can be committed with them.

I apologize if the sarcasm is offensive but what you're proposing is ridiculous.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by KpeX
@ SMD:

Be careful of following the RIAA/MPAA's ways of establishing measures that assume guilty until proven innocent.

Why stop here. If guns and knives were made illegal it would be much harder to commit many crimes. If airplanes were made illegal September 11th would never happen again. Why allow computers to be legal to begin with? So many illegal acts can be committed with them.

I apologize if the sarcasm is offensive but what you're proposing is ridiculous. It's not ridiculous at all!

You can't use the same analogy. And anyway possessing guns and the carrying of knives is already illegal in some countries!

You can't argue that if it was against the law to permanently store copyrighted media on computers (without permission) It would not reduce the amount of internet piracy... Can you?

[Kedirekin]

I think I see what you're trying to say now. It's okay to temporarily place protected content to your drive, but it's illegal to have dedicated long term storage.

You do realize that's unenforceable, don't you? Who decides how long is long term? And what if I take it off for 5 minutes, then put it back on again for another week?

Besides that, there are legitimate uses for long-term storage of protected content. For example, most radio stations these days use a computerized systems with the equivalent of MP3s. Ditto for modern DJs. And we don't even want to get into the arena of on-line content distribution (like iTunes).

On the base of it, your idea isn't rediculous, but I think it is unenforceable - and it doesn't really add anything. There are already enough laws to stop people from sharing protected content.

As it stands, the people putting songs up on P2P are breaking the law (and incidentally it isn't stopping many of them). I don't think anyone disputes that sharing songs is against the law- what's more in dispute is whether sharing songs is actually wrong (in other words, are the existing laws really just in these new circumstances).

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Kedirekin
I think I see what you're trying to say now. It's okay to temporarily place protected content to your drive, but it's illegal to have dedicated long term storage. Yep, that's it.

Originally posted by Kedirekin
You do realize that's unenforceable, don't you? Who decides how long is long term? And what if I take it off for 5 minutes, then put it back on again for another week? Well, you only have it on your PC, while your working with it.

Originally posted by Kedirekin
Besides that, there are legitimate uses for long-term storage of protected content. For example, most radio stations these days use a computerized systems with the equivalent of MP3s. Ditto for modern DJs. And we don't even want to get into the arena of on-line content distribution (like iTunes). They should already have permission from the coyright holder, or their agents to do this

Originally posted by Kedirekin
On the base of it, your idea isn't rediculous, but I think it is unenforceable - and it doesn't really add anything. There are already enough laws to stop people from sharing protected content.

As it stands, the people putting songs up on P2P are breaking the law (and incidentally it isn't stopping many of them). I don't think anyone disputes that sharing songs is against the law- what's more in dispute is whether sharing songs is actually wrong (in other words, are the existing laws really just in these new circumstances). Of course it's uniforcable, or at least it is now. But this is only because it's been allowed to get so far out of control in the first place!

That said, if a law was passed tomorrow, making it illegal to store say, audio and video media on a computer. You would leave youself open to prosecution for creating a means whereby, such media could all to easily be distributed it over the net. And as such would not have a leg to stand on.

The fact that you may have thousands of backed up tracks stored on say, CD or DVD R/RW an your shelves would be another argument altogether. As such media can't suddenly leap off your shelf, load itself onto your PC, and disribute itself over the net!

Just keep it off your PC's and keep it on your shelf. I say!

Cheers

[KpeX]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
You can't argue that if it was against the law to permanently store copyrighted media on computers (without permission) It would not reduce the amount of internet piracy... Can you? That's not the point. The point is I feel it is very wrong to penalize people who have committed no crime just to prevent other people from committing a crime.

Perhaps I feel that my HD is the most secure and convenient method of archiving some music/movies/whatever. I paid for that media and fully own it, and just because a few people use the same tools to pirate media shouldn't be justification to take away my rights.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by KpeX
That's not the point. The point is I feel it is very wrong to penalize people who have committed no crime just to prevent other people from committing a crime.

Perhaps I feel that my HD is the most secure and convenient method of archiving some music/movies/whatever. I paid for that media and fully own it, and just because a few people use the same tools to pirate media shouldn't be justification to take away my rights. Are you the kind of guy who does not backup your personal data. What would you do if your PC went tits up or was stolen? Where would your data be then?

I'm not saying that you cannot store your media on an purpose built device, like maybe an Archos, Thomson Lyra, MP3 player etc.

And anyway if you did decided to store media on your PC and were able to prove you had paid for it. A nice legal person such as your good self would not have much of a problem. You would just be doing it at your own risk!

[mpucoder]

Well, there are people trying to do just this, or something very close to this, by outlawing technology that has not been approved by them (Senator Fritz Hollings' Evil Bill (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51275,00.html) ). But it goes against a basic tenet of US law, that a device cannot be outlawed simply because it has an illegal purpose so long as it has legal uses. This is especially true if the intended or principal purpose of the device is a legal one.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by mpucoder
Well, there are people trying to do just this, or something very close to this, by outlawing technology that has not been approved by them (Senator Fritz Hollings' Evil Bill (http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51275,00.html) ). But it goes against a basic tenet of US law, that a device cannot be outlawed simply because it has an illegal purpose so long as it has legal uses. This is especially true if the intended or principal purpose of the device is a legal one. Well I think it's quite clear that in this day and age. All our laws, constitutions and amendments can be manipulated to work both for us or against us!

The trouble is, there are too many old, ill defined laws still on the statute books of many countries, that may have been a good idea at one time, but do more harm that good in more modern times. However they are still active and may be used to suit a purpose they were not originally designed to do!

We in Europe are in for an interesting time. What might be illegal (for good reasons) in one EU country my well be perfectly legal in another. I'm sure the same thing happens from State to State in the US.

If it was up to me, many of our laws (if not all laws) would only stay active for a pre-determined amount of time and as such, prior to their expiry would either be modified (to stay in touch with current times) or dropped!

That should give the civil servants in some of our countries something to do!

[KpeX]

Originally posted by mpucoder
a device cannot be outlawed simply because it has an illegal purpose so long as it has legal uses. This is especially true if the intended or principal purpose of the device is a legal one.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for saying it simply and eloquently mpucoder :D.

[cypher_soundz]

Help! this whole tread is sounding like Equilibrium (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/):eek: :confused: :scared:

[archimage]

D@mn , just think of all the lawsuits against all the innocent tivo owners . An dont think they(MPAA?)woudlnt do it , Directv , a sat. tv service in america , has sent close to 100,000 demand letters to people who purchased iso programers an other devices that Directv claims is a supposed `hacking device` . The demands ask for 3,500 dollors , an if you dont pay , Directv sues you for 10,000-100,000 which Directv claims is allowed under laws which prevents any person to own a device that can be used to hack there signal . Most people choose to pay , because the prices for a lawyer are more then 3,500 . They have sued over 10,000 end users allready .
http://www.freedomfight.ca/forum/
http://forums.wumarkus.com/

[Tuesday]

@SeeMoreDigital

Not being able to store you're own cd's, in any format, on your own PC would be crazy, i happen to have a large CD collection, which is much more conviienently organised and accessed my transfreing them to mp3 on my PC. I see no reason how this could possibly be considered wrong or would be made illegal

(Not a personal attack, i just find the whole proposal ridiculous)

[dragongodz]

"You can't argue that if it was against the law to permanently store copyrighted media on computers (without permission) It would not reduce the amount of internet piracy... Can you?"
and that asumes that it will only stop pirates. go back and read my response where i answer that list of questions you did. read my answers.
now according to your proposal i am in the wrong because i am storing(for actual use) some mp3's. if what you propose was in effect then i could be charged and the onus of proof would be put on me to prove my innocense. you clearly realise this because you say
"And anyway if you did decided to store media on your PC and were able to prove you had paid for it."
so what happened to being innocent until proven guilty ? this means people have to go pay lawyers etc to prove they didnt do anything wrong. thats trully a f*cked up idea.(excuse the french :) )

"All our laws, constitutions and amendments can be manipulated to work both for us or against us!"
correct but if you notice big business and big money work against 99% of the time. how many innocent people would have to be crushed before someone says its wrong ? hmm well even with those cases going against the riaa etc you will notice they are not stopping but challenging such decisions.

[bern]

Wouldn't it be much simpler to just ban the internet ? After all it is being used as the biggest piracey tool of them all isn't it.

[cypher_soundz]

lol that is true, but then again ...we might as well ban the postal service and telephone, if the Internet was not around , people would go back to trading via BBS / groups. given it would be harder and less people would do it, like with napster , after it was shut down this spurted a growth in p2p applications , and a challenge to people to make a p2p network that could not be shut down and not central server reliant and they did it. if the Internet was not around you would find courier services appearing that drop packages off at p.o box address's etc. But think of what the Internet has given us? its the biggest communication network and given that piracy is around on the net,so is more important things (like this forum ;)). There are more legitimate uses than illegal ones. In the end organisations will make so many thing illegal that doing anything will be illegal under some act.
Regards
cyph

[chemmajik]

I know this has been repeatedly said, but the dutch govt is prosecuting uploaders, long live the porn as pay back whoa! haha