CCE 2.50 and 2.67 Image Quality Comparison Set

[Kedirekin]

I don't eat cabbage. I hate cabbage. 65 million years ago dinosaurs went extinct, but not cabbage. Darn the luck.

@yuri,
I happen to agree with you. It certainly looks to me like 2.67 produces lower quality results than 2.5. Personally I think it's a bit allocation problem between frames - bitrate is being withheld from the problem frame in order to give another frame more bitrate, perhaps needlessly. In other words, Custom Technologies broke the bitrate allocation strategy. This fits right in with the hypothesis that the logo appears to fix the problem while in fact only changing how the allocation strategy is applied.

Tweaking the settings might fix the problem, but it'd probably take 1000 years to find the right ones.

Software upgrades aren't always improvements, as evidenced by Windows ME.

[syzygytec]

with all this patching stuff fortunately confined to the dustbin

hmm me wonders why noone tries with 2.67.00.20, actually o I don't wonder, jarvis1781 must be using this version.

[troy]

wow this is a great thread. I just wanna say that I encoded a1 and 1/2 hour interlaced cartoon from my vcr at 352x480 resolution with cce 3 pass min 2000, max 8500, avg 6000 win CCE 2.66. My m2v file was almost 4gb. I looked at at a lot of the frames to see one that was worse then the source and could not find one.

[Kedirekin]

Half D1 at 6000 kbps average bitrate. I should hope you wouldn't find any bad frames.

I would expect good results at ~4000 average for full D1, so half again as much bitrate for half the number of pixels (3x bits per block) better produce extraordinary results.

[r6d2]

Can you ask him to leave the cabbage? :)

You are welcome to stay and continue providing useful information. You are only asked to respect other members, particularly mods, and abide by the rules. It does not require any moral skills. Just common sense.

Showing some good manners and apoligizing is welcome too.

Once I met a goat that used to say "those who leave without being kicked usually come back without being called".

[wmansir]

So it looks like Yuri decided to take his ball and go home. :rolleyes:

or do I have to stick to a goat analogy?

[Kedirekin]

Yes, Yuri left. I can't say I blame him.

It's a shame really. He was contributing to the community.

It's also ironic; the people who chased him out of here are more guilty of misbehaving (in their own morally superior way) than Yuri himself was.

[wmansir]

I wouldn't say anyone was chased away. The forum rules are very clear about discussion of illegal activities and software. If someone feels they are being repressed because of those rules this is not the place for them.

[Kedirekin]

I disagree. He wasn't asking for cracks or warez sites. He was talking about a potential flaw in CCE.

If he was using illegally* obtained software then shame on him, but it's nobody's business to act as the morality police here.

* some of Yuri's links looked Cyrillic; I for one don't know that using cracked foriegn software is illegal in Russia, or where ever Yuri hales from, so I for one won't pass judgement on him.

[r6d2]

Well, Kedirekin, you are, as everyone, entitled to an opinion, but the point is that if you admit you are using illegally obtained software, you are in fact jeopardizing the existance of this forum. And most people here don't want that. I hope you are in the same group.

That matter is very sensitive and we all must keep it in mind. This forum exists because we all believe that we have the right to backup our movies under fair use. And that is a position we sustain. We cannot run the risk of being related to illegal activities.

And it is not like playing cops or morality stuff. All mods become mods after being normal users. We were not gifted by god to become one, and we don't consider ourselves above the rules either.

We don't care about a user beating his wife or abusing his kids. Those are moral matters. We just care about keeping the modus operandi that has made this forum the greatest one on the subject, in order for it to continue being so.

Particularly, just in case you are not aware, we hate to strike and to constantly remind users to use the search button, to choose useful thread names, to read the FAQs, and all that they have agreed to. We prefer much better to encourage creativity and supporting users.

Respecting other people and the rules is not too high a price for what you get here, don't you think?

Now Yuri, by taking his ball home left the whole community without the interesting information he was providing. He made the thread useless to everybody interested. Does that look respectfull to you? And he was not even struck or suspended. Just asked to abide by the rules, which was something he agreed to do before.

This post deleting stuff has happened before and as you can see from the ball analogy, it is a very childish thing to do.

And if for some reason now you feel somebody is chasing you, please think again, because as with Yuri, nobody is. And if you want to leave in the future, please don't take out from the community what you have provided, particularly if you think it is useful.

[Boulder]

It was not a long time ago that a similar thing happened, taking a huge amount of very good information to a black hole in cyberspace.

You all know that I mean Bach, right?

His excellent RePal plugin would have been very hard to use unless some forum backups hadn't been used to determine the functions, but many of his very informative posts have been lost forever.

[bira]

That's why I believe there should be a limited time frame for editing posts. That should be: no editing allowed if there is a post below yours.

My somewhat off-topic 2 cents.

[mmatac]

Please,

could someone summarize in a final way which is the best encoder between CCE 2.5; 2.66 and 2.67?

thx

[Yuri]

YOU-HOO, jarvis1781 and the like! Where are you with all your comparison tests of "good-and-right-and-lawful" pieces of software? No reply. Strange. Interesting. Weird.

At least mod, let alone the guys who mis-interpreted my postings and who based their own selves purely on their guess-work, could say "I am sorry" not to me (it is too much of a good thing!) but to the community they cherish so much. It is they who deprived the community of some useful information shifting the blame on me, for the second time, accusing me so directly and causelessly of all possible crimes on earth. Mod made me delete my postings through his "smart" remarks.

If I were mod of this forum I would delete the whole thread, because it still contains VERY SENSITIVE information.

You know, when they don't like the idea, they attack the person who expresses it.

I was contributing to the community (by my naiive mistake) when they were a friendly and helpful lot, but when they transformed into an evil-eyed, conceited, and rabit boodle (which is VERY logical), rendering any idea in their own strange non-tec way, I thought it was all my fault and followed the meant orders of the mod to reverse everything to its initial state, at least that's what he wanted, (just re-read his postings to me, but read between the lines), though he called it childish, heh, (what an idea!) It's not childishness but obedience (again his mis-interpretation of actions according to his pragmatics).
Let it be this way then.

[r6d2]

Gee, it seems Yuri changed his mind again after all and came back. Third change of mind in 11 posts. What a consistent guy indeed with his own actions.

"Those who leave without being kicked usually come back without being called". -- A goat.

[Kedirekin]

Well, I'm glad he decided to come back.

@Yuri,
Welcome back. I commend you for not letting them drive you away. The last thing we need in this forum is a good ol' boys club.

[jarvis1781]

judging from his last post I'm glad he is gone.
not only childish, but fickle and weak-hearted as well.

and I don't think this thread was a good contribution to the community because it was giving false results of a spectacular encoder

Custom Tech has done a great job improving their encoder ... this was being contradicted by this thread.

[Matthew]

/me agrees with Kedirekin. Not that Yuri is blameless, but in a situation like this, being snide on the internet - or in real life for that matter - is fairly pathetic IMO.

Not that I actually think my opinion counts for anything ;)

And jarvis, Yuri attempted to provide evidence for his claims, you did not. The sample is still provided on my webspace, feel free to download it, encode and post stills of the relevant frames. It would be a great help and much appreciated (by me at least, anyway) I'm sure.

[jarvis1781]

Originally posted by Matthew
/me agrees with Kedirekin. Not that Yuri is blameless, but in a situation like this, being snide on the internet - or in real life for that matter - is fairly pathetic IMO.

Not that I actually think my opinion counts for anything ;)

And jarvis, Yuri attempted to provide evidence for his claims, you did not. The sample is still provided on my webspace, feel free to download it, encode and post stills of the relevant frames. It would be a great help and much appreciated (by me at least, anyway) I'm sure.

I have no problem doing that.
Give me the link to your site and tell me exactly what frames you want me to capture for you.
I'd love to show you CCE in all it's glory

[Matthew]

Great, thanks :)

http://members.tripod.co.uk/jefffahey88/sample/tarzan_49_tricky_frames.zip

You must copy/paste link to new window.

For consistency can you encode with 1 pass VBR, a Q of 20 and flat priority of 12, all filters disabled. Progressive, zigzag, gop 3/5, 4:3.

Frames 27 and 28 would be the best ones to post, I think :)

[jarvis1781]

ok..I got the captures done. it seems i can't upload them here and as i have no webspace i will email them to you if you give me your email addy. thanks

[mmatac]

@ Yuri
Also I'm glad you come back. Please continue to work about the technical theme you are discussing. With your 'technical' speakers.
Don't care about other considerations. Respect the rules only for avoiding other people disturb you from the technical discussion.

An example: in my country, when a police man stops a driver because the car runs too much, he fines the driver. It's rigth!!!
The problem is that the police man wants also to unburden his life problems and his poor existence on the driver. Blaming and insulting the driver. He is a poor man, but he HAS the power.
So, understand who is the police man and be superior to him.
To continue to write on this forum.
All the people who read and write on the this CCE forum bought :) the program.
By definition. :rolleyes:

bye michele

[r6d2]

Originally posted by mmatac
Also I'm glad you come back.
Sorry to bring these news to you, guys, but Yuri will no longer be with us.

Yet the topic is interesting and I'm sure some guy will come up with technical analysis to give you a final answer, if that is possible.
An example: in my country, when a police man stops a driver because the car runs too much, he fines the driver. It's rigth!!!
The problem is that the police man wants also to unburden his life problems and his poor existence on the driver. Blaming and insulting the driver. He is a poor man, but he HAS the power.
This analogy of yours, I guess, is pointed at mods in this forum. If it is, it is pretty insulting and you are already violating the rules. If it is not, then it is completely pointless. However, I'll believe beforehand in your bonafide since I have no reason to believe you're stupid.

You see, it is a quite unfortunate analogy. First, Yuri did not get any ticket. He was only asked not to speed. Second, nobody here insulted him. He was childish (took the ball home) and disrespectful (left you without the good stuff he brought by deleting his posts). Third, he was not blamed for anything. He confessed himself.

If you cannot see that, man, you are in trouble.

I'm sure you know better. Try to show your wits.
All the people who read and write on the this CCE forum bought :) the program. By definition.
Really? I don't think so. You can drive without a license and registration, but you have to be really stupid to put a sign in the windshield saying so.

[Kedirekin]

That's disgusting.

[mmatac]

@ r6d2:

I tell you in italian language: 'sei cosi' cretino, infantile e pieno di te che non ti accorgi nemmeno quando ti stanno prendendo per il culo.
Doom9 farebbe bene a disfarsi di moderatori come te.'

[Boulder]

1) Write in English, please.

2) Where's RB? I think it's time to close the thread. This has nothing to do with the original post.

[Steve56]

May I add a small technical consideration for a test:

When testing "different" CCE versions, maybe it would be a good idea to use AviSynth to put the CCE Sticker on top of the source video, so both Encoders should have the same starting conditions!

Steve56

--
Amt für Software-Zuweisung

[mmatac]

I suggest to fix a standard to perform the tests:

- the source (the same for each test)
- which programs/versions used
- which parameters used (for the bitrate I suggest two trial: at high bitrate, at low bitrate)
- how to measure the quality (by viewing the image or in a mathematic way)

and then use it for testing the quality of the encoders.
First CCE 2.50, CCE 2.66, CCE 2.67.
Then, other encoder TMPEG, Mainconcept, ...

Do you agree?

[dionisos]

geez
what had happened here?
:confused:

[r6d2]

Originally posted by r6d2
However, I'll believe beforehand in your bonafide since I have no reason to believe you're stupid.
@mmatac

Sorry, I was awfully wrong about you.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Steve56
May I add a small technical consideration for a test:

When testing "different" CCE versions, maybe it would be a good idea to use AviSynth to put the CCE Sticker on top of the source video, so both Encoders should have the same starting conditions!

That's a really good idea...if it's possible...although in one of Yuri's tests he did use an addgrain filter (to attract more bits, as he theorised the logo did) and found that the image destruction went away. On that basis he concluded that the logo was preventing image destruction by attracting more bits to the frame.

jarvis has a retail version of CCE though, he's got my email address now and when he sends the stills of the frames from the test encode I'll post them.

[jarvis1781]

i just got them sent
post when you get them for others to see

[Matthew]

http://members.lycos.co.uk/jefffahey88/jarvis/

There they are. If you don't want to look, then the reuslt is this: Jarvis' stills display no image destruction.

I encoded mine using CCE 2.67.00.11. I know 2.67.00.08 gives the same result.

Now I just realised jarvis hasn't said what retail version he is using, but I presume it's 2.67. I shouldn't have thought the specific build relevant because the latest history.txt just refers to minor bugfixes.

Also, bear in mind those are 1 pass stills - 4 pass VBR doesn't exhibit the same problem, but it is still inferior to 2.50.

Thanks again jarvis :)

[Matthew]

How odd, just noticed jarvis's still is better than the one from the 2.67 CCE trial with logo.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/jefffahey88/cce/logo.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/jefffahey88/jarvis/jarvis1.jpg

:confused:

[jarvis1781]

Sorry about that. I encoded with version 2.67.00.20
I plan to upgrade to the latest version as soon as I get a chance.
Anyway, glad I could help clear up those discrepancies. I hope everyone can see the power of this great software and now realizes why I got upset when the claim was being made that the new versions ruin video encodes.

[jarvis1781]

the trial version allocates bitrate wrong sometimes due to the extra bitrates used for the logo.

[Yuri]

Dearest jarvis1781, could you, please, answer one question?
Why does the trial version allocate bitrate correctly at 2-pass mode though it still uses the extra bitrates for the logo?

I hope everybody understands that we are NOT promoting encoding with trial versions but we are trying to understand the reasons of image corruption by trial versions. Please, go and BUY this beautiful program, because it deserves all the money and enjoy the flawless work of the programmers!

Thank you everyone!

[whtake]

I have done a lot of still image editing in Photoshop and one of the things that I had learned was that if one were to compare images, one need to ensure that the images were viewed at 100% zoom (or "actual pixels" in Photoshop).

When I did that with the few images posted in this thread by downloading them first and opening them in Photoshop, at least for me, I did not notice any differences in the quality of the images in terms of sharpness. There were only some very slight differences in terms of noise and color, not significant in my view.

Try it and maybe the conclusion/inference about quality differences between the versions and with or without logo may be different.

Regards


PS: I had been following and searching this forum without the need to register and with the information gathered from it, I had successfully burned my first DVD of a DV recording. When I read this thread 5 days ago, I wanted to post to share my information but I couldn't. In accordance with the rules, I had to wait 5 days ....

[RB]

This thread has gone way too far in terms of forum rules violations. Closed.