requested: a guide for DVD conversion to WM9 codec

[amni]

I tried to convert VOB to AVI in WM9 codec.
WM9 should be 2 passes,
best quality in video bitrate 1200 kbps
(29.970 frames/second, 640x432 pixels/frame).

I have used DVD2AVI 1.76 (with VFAPI 1.04)
and VirtualDub 1.52 (with several built-un filters).
Looks like I have done the first pass well,
but I cannot do the second pass because I don't
know exactly how to do it.
(In the second pass WM9 configuratios tabs doesn't allow filling,
complaining about something wrong).

I wonder if there is a good guide which explains how to configure
WM9 properly, 2 passes under VirtualDub.

[summit3907]

from here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255043)

2 Pass Encoding
It took me a while to figure out how to do 2 pass encoding in VDM. The secret is adding the right files at the right time. When you go into the WM9 encoder properties, select 2 Pass Bit Rate VBR or 2 Pass Bit Rate VBR (Peak). Rather than choosing the Quality from the one pass VBR, you will need to enter the Bit Rate (in bits, so enter 1000000 for 1 mbps) and the Peak bit rate (for Peak). Secondly, click on the … button in the Log File next to First Pass. This will prompt you to save a .tmp file. Save it as something like ‘2 pass.tmp’. Click OK until you are back to the main screen. Now, you will have to save the AVI as described above. VDM will create an .avi file, but it is really just a dummy file. When it is done, return to the Compression screen. Click on the Second Pass radio button and select the .tmp file you saved in the first pass. Return to the main screen and save the AVI file again. This time, the real avi file will be saved based on the info in the first pass. This process is really helped out by the Batch Control described above.
If you save the AVI as a different name, you can set up both passes in batch and then just run them at night without waiting for the first pass to finish.

kevin

[amni]

I used as bitrate something like "950" instead of "950000",
your response gave me a clue about that silly mistake.
Although there are more things to learn about WM9
it works fine and i might read your guide in AVSFORUM
when I try to mix WM9 video with Audio.
For the time beeing I'm ocuppied in learning better
filtering for VirtualDub (underestimated issue by many),
especially noise reduction filters is an hard to learn art.



Originally posted by summit3907
from here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255043)

2 Pass Encoding
It took me a while to figure out how to do 2 pass encoding in VDM. The secret is adding the right files at the right time. When you go into the WM9 encoder properties, select 2 Pass Bit Rate VBR or 2 Pass Bit Rate VBR (Peak). Rather than choosing the Quality from the one pass VBR, you will need to enter the Bit Rate (in bits, so enter 1000000 for 1 mbps) and the Peak bit rate (for Peak). Secondly, click on the … button in the Log File next to First Pass. This will prompt you to save a .tmp file. Save it as something like ‘2 pass.tmp’. Click OK until you are back to the main screen. Now, you will have to save the AVI as described above. VDM will create an .avi file, but it is really just a dummy file. When it is done, return to the Compression screen. Click on the Second Pass radio button and select the .tmp file you saved in the first pass. Return to the main screen and save the AVI file again. This time, the real avi file will be saved based on the info in the first pass. This process is really helped out by the Batch Control described above.
If you save the AVI as a different name, you can set up both passes in batch and then just run them at night without waiting for the first pass to finish.

kevin

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi amni,

If you want simple just use DVDdecrypter and MPEGmediator. It's a breeze!

There's much talk on the forum about Len0x's new cut down version of GK. But in my opinion MPEGmediator is easier to use and provides more options.... cropping & resizing, bitrate selection, WMV9 VCM, VP6, 3vix, Helix codecs etc, for a start!

And if you decide to use it and want to know how to generate encodes to the nearest megabyte I'll tell you how!

It's just VOB's in, AVI files out!

Cheers

[amni]

It is not complicated at all. And I think it cam do the
best in terms of video filters.

Regarding WMV9,
What I really need is to understand better its
video configuration, and some good tips.

I never use any calculators like GKnot.
My calculations are subtle
(but do not take much time). Most time is taken
by various "previews" which help me decide which
filters are best and what bitrate is best.

But I'll be glad to know if any orogram like Gknot
or MPEGmediator include diagnostic tools about
my "preview" created files.

Eg., I want to know if
any of these tools can tell me the bitrate frame-by-frame
of AVI in WMV9. Looks like WM9 "drops" some frames
when the bitrate is too low ("drops" by duplicating them).

[Beastie Boy]

Are you using 2 Pass VBR (Peak) setting. I would recommend not to use this as, in my experience, if the Peak is reached, the encoder drops frames which could be the cause of your problem.
Stick to the 2Pass VBR mode. I have done quite a few encodes with this and they are very good, however, I use a higher bit-rate than the one you mention. Here is my method.

1)I use GK to create an AVS file and do a comp check. When I'm happy with this I select DivX 3.11 as the encoder and note the indicated Video bitrate.
2)Load your AVS file in VDub or VDubMod and apply filters if you wish.
3)On the WMV9 VCM dialog (I assume you know where that is) select 2Pass VBR and Complex mode.For the bitrate, add 3 zeros to the figure obtained in step 1). In the Log File area check First Pass and use the browse button to save a tmp file somewhere. Click OK
4)Now choose File\Save as AVI. Give it a name but ensure that 'Don't run this job now, add it to the job list' is ticked, and then click save.
5)Now bring up the WMV9 dialog again and check Second Pass and browse to the tmp file saved previously. Click OK.
6)Repeat step 4) and use the same AVI file.
7)Select File\Job Control and you will see two queued jobs. Click Start and wait.

Any questions, just post.

Cheers, Beastie.

[SeeMoreDigital]

It's much, much easier with MPEGmediator. No scripts

Like I say it's just VOB files in... AVI file out!

But like Beastie says, don't use peak mode. This will introduce dropped/repeated frames!

Cheers

[amni]

Indeed, it was "2 pass peak". I chose this instead of
"2 pass (plain)" because the "2 pass (plain)" gives
a huge file size for a neglible quality improvement
(except a noticeable frames drop in a 10 seconds shot
and hardly noticeable frames drop in other 20 seconds).
It seems that there is in the encoded movie
a long scene with much "jerky noise"
and the encoder tries to encode that noise,
encoding of jerky noise takes a lot of bitrate.

I'm lookink for a better solution then the one you
offered. For example I might reducing
dramatically the noise in the problematic 30 seconds shots.

The best solution could have been if I could overrid
the PEAK uper bound only in the problematic shots
(if I recall that option was available in NANDUB).
Unfortunately I think overriding PEAK in specified frames range
is not possible in WMV9 VCM codec.


Originally posted by Beastie Boy
Are you using 2 Pass VBR (Peak) setting. I would recommend not to use this as, in my experience, if the Peak is reached, the encoder drops frames which could be the cause of your problem.
Stick to the 2Pass VBR mode. I have done quite a few encodes with this and they are very good, however, I use a higher bit-rate than the one you mention. Here is my method.

1)I use GK to create an AVS file and do a comp check. When I'm happy with this I select DivX 3.11 as the encoder and note the indicated Video bitrate.
2)Load your AVS file in VDub or VDubMod and apply filters if you wish.
3)On the WMV9 VCM dialog (I assume you know where that is) select 2Pass VBR and Complex mode.For the bitrate, add 3 zeros to the figure obtained in step 1). In the Log File area check First Pass and use the browse button to save a tmp file somewhere. Click OK
4)Now choose File\Save as AVI. Give it a name but ensure that 'Don't run this job now, add it to the job list' is ticked, and then click save.
5)Now bring up the WMV9 dialog again and check Second Pass and browse to the tmp file saved previously. Click OK.
6)Repeat step 4) and use the same AVI file.
7)Select File\Job Control and you will see two queued jobs. Click Start and wait.

Any questions, just post.

Cheers, Beastie.

[SeeMoreDigital]

amni

What is your most recent movie you are using as a source?
How long is it?
What image pixel frame size to you want to encode to?
How big a finished file size, do you want?
What audio quality do you want, 96, 128 etc kbps?

Maybe we can help you create some settings!

Cheers

[amni]

What I really need are general tools and information
hich can help me in making my own decisions.
I believe also that "general tools and information"
may help other people in other cases.
Thank you anyway.

_amni_



Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
amni

What is your most recent movie you are using as a source?
How long is it?
What image pixel frame size to you want to encode to?
How big a finished file size, do you want?
What audio quality do you want, 96, 128 etc kbps?

Maybe we can help you create some settings!

Cheers

[Beastie Boy]

My post above was pretty general in that it is the method I use for all movies. Is there a particular problem that you are still having? There are many people here who are more than willing to help, but we need to know what help you require :)

Cheers, Beastie.

EDIT
Indeed, it was "2 pass peak". I chose this instead of "2 pass (plain)" because the "2 pass (plain)" gives a huge file size for a neglible quality improvement

2 Pass (plain) shouldn't give a larger file size. The only difference is that it doesn't set an upper limit for the bitrate.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Beastie Boy
...2 Pass (plain) shouldn't give a larger file size. The only difference is that it doesn't set an upper limit for the bitrate. Agreed. I would love to help a bit more!

Most of my encodes are at either 720x480 or 720x576 (1:1) anamorphic. And I can honestly say I don't have any problems generating them to almost the exact megabyte size I require (give or take 500KB). Using either DivX or WMV9 VCM!

Cheers

[amni]

I made experiments with a clip of about 80 seconds.
* 2 passes with PEAK took approximately 10 MB,
* 2 passes without PEAK took 17 MB.
This means 70 percent more than planned.
I can tolerate 5 percent deviation, not 70 percent deviation.

Perceptually the difference between the two encoding
were _neglible_, in spite of the 70 percent difference.
I can tolerate 5 percent deviatian, not 70 percent
(or even more).

I know what are the problems which created that huge
filesize difference, and I know what is the only reasonable solution,
but I don't have the tools for that solution.
I'm not asking for advice what to do, i know what should be done,
I only ask for software tools (if there are any)
to diagnose the resulting encoded filr (frame by frame),
and I only details about the encoder which i don't know about
(like overriding the PEAK bound for small frames ranges).

As I said, I only need to overrid the PEAK bound
of 1350000 in several frame ranges which take totally
at most 1 percent of the whole movie.
I considered all other simple alternative options
and and all of them are probably wrong
(I wouldn't reduce the frame size below 640x304 pixels
and I'll not wash all the fine details by a strong
smooth filter).


Originally posted by Beastie Boy
My post above was pretty general in that it is the method I use for all movies. Is there a particular problem that you are still having? There are many people here who are more than willing to help, but we need to know what help you require :)

Cheers, Beastie.

EDIT


2 Pass (plain) shouldn't give a larger file size. The only difference is that it doesn't set an upper limit for the bitrate.

[SeeMoreDigital]

As Beastie Boy says. And I have confirmed, you should not be getting such massive differences in file size!

Several months ago I decided to test different encoders by generating both DivX and WMV9 VCM encodes from the same source using the same bitrate settings etc.

Each encoder generated a different finished file size!

So, if I were you I would think about giving another encoder a go. As it sounds to me like your current encoder is not reporting the bitrate flow correctly.

Cheers

[Beastie Boy]

In my testing, I found the WMV9 VCM codec to be terrible at predicting file sizes for short clips. However, on a full length movie you shouldn't have any problems with file size.
The only way to alter the settings for different parts of the movie is to encode each part seperately and then join them together using VDubMod at the end. Doing this though will destoy the codecs attempts a bitrate distribution to achieve constant quality.

The only reason for using 2 Pass (Peak) is to cap the bitrate so that the file may be played back on machines that don't have enough power to decode a high bitrate scene. If you are over riding this then there really is no point in using it. The only result is duplicated frames.

I'm not asking for advice what to do, i know what should be done, I only ask for software tools (if there are any)
OK, so what is you want the tools to do? I'm afraid you're one step ahead of me here :confused:

Cheers, Beastie.

[ookzDVD]

@Beastie,

After looking around the forum, I think you are the guy which know
enough about WMV9 VCM encoding, especially 2-pass-VBR.

Please allow me to ask you some question :

1. After testing the codec so far,
could you tell me suggested setting for important options available from the vfw codec setting for 2-pass-vbr such as :
* key frame interval (default : 8000ms???) ?
* decoder complexity ?
* performance ?
* bitrate ? should I set the bitrate for the first pass ?
rather than on the 2-nd pass as like the other codec does ?

2. Please tell me more about the encoding speed according to
your experiences.

PS. I'm using AviSynth 2.53 YV12 mode.

Thank you.

[Beastie Boy]

@ookzDVD, I am still learning about this codec myself but I will answer your questions as best I can.

Keyframe interval: I use the default 8000ms (8 sec). You could push this upto 12000 if you wanted but I don't think there is any advantage in doing so.

Decoder Complexity: This is kind of like choosing simple or advanced profiles in other MPEG4 codecs and is adjusted depending on the intended playback device.
Choose Complex if you intend to playback on a modern PC.
Choose Main, High level if you are viewing using a WMV capable DVD player.
Choose Main, Medium level for a slower PC.


Performance: So far I have only used the default which is one notch from the right(Better Quality) side. This however is slow, comparable to doing 1xStandard + 1xSlowest in DivX 5.1. I have read of people using the setting one notch from the left and getting good results. I intend to try this myself.

Bitrate: As with all other options, set them in the first pass. In the second pass, just check the 'Second Pass' radio button and browse to the tmp file created for the first pass. No other alterations required.

I hope this helps, or at least doesn't confuse you even more :)
Any questions, please ask.

Cheers, Beastie.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Agreed Beastie Boy,

I generate my 2pass VBR encodes in the same way.

You touched on the point that M$ denote their keyframe settings in ms (Milli seconds) rather than frames.

So just to reiterate to others. 8000ms = 8 seconds = 200 frames (for PAL @ 25fps) or 240 frames (for NTSC @ 30fps).

And using the 'Main' Decoder Complexity default setting, is good enough for most uses. Even 'low power' PC owners.

I've managed to spin 720x576 anamorphic CD-R encodes on a PC with an 300MHz AMD Cyrix processor fitted. Amazing... can't do that with DivX!

You really should give the full bar setting a try. If you are into low bitrate (1No movie per CD) encodes. It stabilises background imagery no end. To far greater effect than any Mpeg4 codec can!

Cheers

[Beastie Boy]

I've managed to spin 720x576 anamorphic CD-R encodes on a PC with an 300MHz AMD Cyrix processor fitted.
Really? That's amazing.
You really should give the full bar setting a try. If you are into low bitrate (1No movie per CD) encodes. It stabilises background imagery no end. To far greater effect than any Mpeg4 codec can!
You are a very patient man :) . To me, the quality of the output is far more important than the encoding time. Perhaps I will give this a go. However, I suspect that the encoding time for a full frame DVD will be somewhat longer than for a 1CD rip.

Cheers, Beastie.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Beastie Boy
You are a very patient man :) . To me, the quality of the output is far more important than the encoding time. Perhaps I will give this a go. However, I suspect that the encoding time for a full frame DVD will be somewhat longer than for a 1CD rip.

Cheers, Beastie. My first 'full bar' encode was done using WMV9 VCM beta!

StarWars 2 @ 137min was the source, using a video bitrate of 625kbps and an audio bitrate of just 64kbps. It was encoded at these bitrates so I could compare it to the WMV9 .wmv encode I generated, using the WinMedia Encoder 9 at the same rates!

The first pass took around 3 hours. And the second pass, around 22 hours. Which is still faster than DivX 5.1.0 'slowest' setting!

I still use it to compare against encodes I generate with other codecs.

Cheers

[Beastie Boy]

It was encoded at these bitrates so I could compare it to the WMV9 .wmv encode I generated, using the WinMedia Encoder 9 at the same rates!
How did it compare?
I'm interested because I'm torn between using WME9 to generate a WMV file with multi-channel WMA audio, or using WMV VCM in VDubMod and keeping the original ac3 soundtrack.

I like the idea of keeping the unaltered ac3 track, and this also saves doing an audio conversion.
But wmv files are starting to gather hardware support and the aspect ratio can be set in the encoder which is good for our anamorphic encodes.

Cheers, Beastie. :confused:

[nFury8]

If I may barge in :), I think WMA9 isn't all that bad, though I don't have bionic ears to discern audio subtleties. I was hesitant to use it before, I had to hang around the hydrogenaudio forums and check what the experts down there had to say about it. After a while I was convinced to just give it a go. I always encode using WMA9Pro anyway, and you're right about the anamorphic encode part, I also encode with just cropping the black bars and no resizing. I do set my audio birate to about half the source audio using WMAPro.

[Beastie Boy]

@nFury8, thanks for the reply. Barge in any time :D

It's good to hear that people with better audio knowledge than myself think WMA is OK. In my encodes so far, I have converted the ac3 track to VBR WMAPro at a quality level of 75. I found this gives an average bitrate around 250-300kbps depending on the source, and I can't hear any difference from the original, but my ears aren't that good either ;)

Obviously, when the audio is converted from one lossy codec to another, there can only be degradation. It will never be better than the source.
The other advantage of the ac3 format is that it can be output digitally to a suitably equipped sound receiver using the pass-through on the sound card. WMA doesn't support this, unless you have an nVidia Soundforce MoBo that does real time ac3 encoding. But that would mean going from ac3-WMA-ac3.

A lot of people have understandably negative views towards Microsoft, but I think they have done a good job with their presents codecs and encoder. Also, Microsoft are very persuisive and there could be a lot of advantages in encoding your files to the WMV9 format in the future.

Cheers, Beastie.

[nFury8]

Amen, brother. :)
Ah yes, the 'Hate Microsoft' thingy, FWIW, what they've come up with this time round isn't really all that bad, at least according to my personal needs anyway. For quite sometime I was very comfortable with the Xvid-AC3-VdubMod route, in fact too comfortable that I needed to try something else. After trying out wmv9 and liking it, I didn't feel like showing my ugly face here anymore out of shame :D . I understand that maybe I'm the only one here doing the wme/wmv-wma thing till now, but there's no more shame :D . We all know that one is a lonely number, care to try and make that loneliness end? LOL

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Beastie Boy
How did it compare?
I'm interested because I'm torn between using WME9 to generate a WMV file with multi-channel WMA audio, or using WMV VCM in VDubMod and keeping the original ac3 soundtrack.

I like the idea of keeping the unaltered ac3 track, and this also saves doing an audio conversion.
But wmv files are starting to gather hardware support and the aspect ratio can be set in the encoder which is good for our anamorphic encodes.

Cheers, Beastie. :confused: I've generated quite a few WMV9 encodes using the WME9 encoder and some have involved creating 6Ch WMA audio streams from the original 6Ch AC3 stream.

Even M$ lowest 'professional' 6Ch audio setting of 128kbps sounds very good. Obviously it's not as good as the original! I suppose it all boils down to what you want to do with your encodes.

I personally like to view my encodes on my TV and pump the audio thru' my DSS amp. So for me I have to either keep the original AC3 audio stream or generate a basic matrixed 2Ch prologic audio stream.

If and when DSS amps begin to appear that can recognise the new multi channel audio streams I might change my mind and move to a new format. AAC looks to be able to do the business in all regards. And I quite like the idea of shoving everything in an MP4 container!

But just to recap. Yes I do quite like how the WMA VBR professional audio codec sounds.

Cheers

[ookzDVD]

@Beastie Boy,

Thank you for your reply.

I finally can do 2-pass WMV9 encoding properly now.

One thing :
I notice that the 2nd-pass is much much longer than the 1st-pass ?
Is that normal ? Please confirm about this.

Edit:
Usually for 2-pass encoding, the 1st pass and 2nd pass
takes about the same speed and time :)


Thank you.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by ookzDVD
@Beastie Boy,
One thing :
I notice that the 2-nd pass is much much longer than the 1-pass ?
Is that normal ? Please confirm about this.

Thank you. Yes, this is normal. In fact it's normal for just about every codec when generating 2pass encodes!

However, with WMV9 VCM you do have a choice of 5No settings. The first setting is by far the fastest and normally takes only slightly longer than the first pass. The last setting, is veeerrry slow, but does produce excellent results, especially at low bitrates!

Cheers

[ookzDVD]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Yes, this is normal. In fact it's normal for just about every codec when generating 2pass encodes!

However, with WMV9 VCM you do have a choice of 5No settings. The first setting is by far the fastest and normally takes only slightly longer than the first pass. The last setting, is veeerrry slow, but does produce excellent results, especially at low bitrates!

Cheers

I hope you don't mis-understand about 2-pass and 1-pass,
my first post is asking about 2nd pass of the 2-pass mode,
the 2nd pass is much much slow than the 1st pass.

I notice the divx, xvid, even rv9 2pass mode,
the 1st pass and the 2nd pass takes about the same time :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by ookzDVD
I hope you don't mis-understand about 2-pass and 1-pass,
my first post is asking about 2nd pass of the 2-pass mode,
the 2nd pass is much much slow than the 1st pass.

I notice the divx, xvid, even rv9 2pass mode,
the 1st pass and the 2nd pass takes about the same time :) I understand perfectly what you are saying!

During the first pass with any codec a log file/unusable encode is generated. This is usually done quite quickly. With my PC for instance, it normally takes the duration of the actual movie to generate the first pass.

The second pass is a very different affair, as this is when the actual 'encoding' is done.

Having said that, the most recent version of DivX's codec also generates MV files, as well as log files, during the first pass. Which can vastly speed up the second pass. It may be worth mentioning that the DivX 5.1 beta's were very quick indeed at generating the second pass!

However, the MV setting only actually works when encoding in 'standard mode' and DivX GUI has been changed to reflect this!

It's also arguable that when generating encodes using slow or slowest modes whether using slow or slowest for the first pass is necessary. Many users, including myself, use 'standard' for the first pass and then slow or slowest for the second pass. Something that was not recommended or even possible with previous versions of DivX.

My experiences with RV9 is much the same. The second pass always takes longer than the first.

That said, most of my encodes are at 720x480/576 anamorphic, so I'm encoding far more pixels than say, the more popular 640x480 or 640x272 image pixel frame sizes.

Cheers

[Beastie Boy]

@ookzDVD
I'm glad you got it to work. How you you think the output compares to the other codecs you have used? I'm interested to hear your opinions.
And yes, the second pass is the killer ;)

@SeeMoreDigital
I must confess to knowing very little about AAC. What advantages does it have over other multichannel codecs such as WMA?

@nFury8
It's you and me against the world, or at least most users on this forum anyway :D
I really love the Open Source community and highly respect all those people who dedicate many hours to produce fantastic software, as demonstrated on this board. Unfortunately, history dictates that standards are generally created from closed source projects, or projects that become closed source. I guess there are exceptions from this so please don't flame me for saying it.

Cheers, Beastie.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Beastie Boy
@SeeMoreDigital
I must confess to knowing very little about AAC. What advantages does it have over other multichannel codecs such as WMA? Well, it promises to achieve better sounding multi channel encodes than WMA at bitrates as low as 96kbps.

I have not tested the codec myself properly yet (just the 2Ch). However I have tested low bitrate RealMedia multichannel audio streams at low bitrates and when compared to WMA9, they do sound better... to my ears anyway!

Cheers

[ookzDVD]

@Beastie,
The quality is solid rock imho. :) superb. :)
BUT
I still have problem while playback,
a white vertical line flashing at the right side in about 3 seconds
interval. I don't know why this can happen. Hope you can help me
found out the problem.
PS. Player is MPC.


@SeeMoreDigital,
Thank you. I can understand now.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by ookzDVD
@Beastie,
The quality is solid rock imho. :) superb. :)
BUT
I still have problem while playback, a white vertical line flashing at the right side in about 3 seconds interval. I don't know why this can happen. Hope you can help me found out the problem.
PS. Player is MPC. Do you still get the same problem when you playback your encode using WinMedia Player9?

What IPFS (image pixel frame size) did you encode to?

What FPS is your encode?

Cheers

[ookzDVD]

@SeeMoreDigital,

I don't have WinMed 9 on my hand atm.

It's just Ice Age trailer, 2:25 minutes, 640x336, 23.97fps.

I can encode the same .avs using other codecs DivX, XviD,
RV9 and all the result are with no problem.