Matroska's Menu / Navigation features.

[Beastie Boy]

I read on the official Matroska page that the container supports "Menus (like DVDs have)". What format does this feature take and how is it presented.
I'm wondering if it will be possible to make a copy of a DVD Movie, complete with the extras and compress it all using MPEG4 onto 1 DVDr and navigate to any part as required using this navigation feature.
Finally, is this feature yet available or is it on the 'to do' list?

Any info appreciated.

Cheers, Beastie.

[myFUN]

AFAIK menus with navigation are currently not support.

[Beastie Boy]

Could anyone tell me how these menus will work once implemented?
Will the viewer be presented with a list of titles within the container, similar to chapters and text only.
Or will it be possible to include a 'menu screen' video file with hot spots that can be selected in a similar to how DVDs work?

Like I said, any info appreciated.

Cheers, Beastie.

[bond]

perhaps it would be interesting for the matroska devs to look at the way how menues are possible in mp4!

in mp4 the authoring has to be done in a textual language called xmt or bt. than this textual script has to be encoded to a binary format (called bifs in mp4) which is possible to store in the mp4 container

now the current situation is that the guys from the gpac (http://sourceforge.net/projects/gpac) project are already working on an opensource authoring tool, called v4studio, which should be also able to output the pure, not encoded xmt/bt text script (there are also plans for a flash<->xmt/bt convertor)

what the matroska devs would need to do is to write some sort of matroska-bifs-encoder, which takes a xmt/bt script (for example created with v4studio) and encode it into binary format in the matroska container

of course such an advanced content would need specific players/filters to be played back:
in mp4 currently there are two possibilities to play back this advanced content:
enviviotv (a directshow filter)
osmo4 (a "standalone" mpeg-4 only player also created by gpac)
use one of those to playback the following examples, which show how such an advanced content can look like: [1] (http://www.comelec.enst.fr/osmo4/mp4/mediacontrol_animatrix.mp4) [2] (http://jfl1974.free.fr/Video/MP4-Sample.rar) [3] (http://www.envivio.com/products/etv/content/applications.jsp)

[Beastie Boy]

Now that really does sound exciting, particularly the Flash converter. If is was implemented then MP4 Menu authoring would surpass even that available for DVDs, at least from a content creation point of view.
In fact, let's take this a step further. Imagine if the container/player/filter combination all supported Flash (or similar). On first opening, the Flash movie would play and present the user with a full flash movie which provided an interface to access the rest of the content.
Or, (I'm thinking out loud here, please bear with me) include the video presentation(s) inside a flash movie, so that the Flash file is not just an intro menu screen, but is the container for the whole show. The movie playback, scene selection and chapters etc could then be controlled via Flash timelines and basic commands with vector graphics overlaid and scaled as required.
I realise that I've shot off at a bit of a tangent here, but the thought of having the disk content enclosed within a mutimedia presentation sounded quite good, despite the practicalities of actually doing it.

I am sure that if something this big was developed then player and filter suport would surely follow. That's what I like about the open source community, particularly the members of this board. They are always quick to incorporate such advancements.

Cheers, Beastie.

[BoNz1]

But this would infringe on all kind of patents and that wouldn't be feasibile at all. Sorry, I don't think it will happen. I believe that something more along the lines of this http://mcf.sourceforge.net/oldpage/trackt.htm#0x00 http://mcf.sourceforge.net/oldpage/control.htm will be implemented.

[bond]

mp4 uses xmt/bt which is a language based on the xml/vrml language
flash is also based on xml/vrml, thats why it shouldnt be that difficult to write a convertor (of course someone still has to do it ;) )
beastie boy, if you are interested in flash menues search doom9, there are already threads about that issue

but imo the main problem for matroska is to develop an authoring tool

now, if matroska uses the same way as mp4 (or flash) it would be easier because there are already some mp4 authoring tools available (and of course the macromedia-flash one), the problem is just how to get them :D (but i am sure if more people would be interested in it the chance to get them would be bigger ;) )

another possibility would be of course to look if it is somehow possible to extract the dvd-menues out of the vobs and store them in matroska, but that would take a lot of space (wouldnt be nice for 1CD rips ;) )

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by bond now, if matroska uses the same way as mp4 (or flash) it would be easier because there are already some mp4 authoring tools available (and of course the macromedia-flash one), the problem is just how to get them :D (but i am sure if more people would be interested in it the chance to get them would be bigger ;) ) ... we have discussed this already within the admin team, and it seems like a good idea. However, with respect to hardware support we might strip it down a little bit, like leaving out all the flash animation part ( dont expect to get hardware support for that somewhen ). Its maybe even possible to convert the scripting language into EBML, so it can be stored natively in the matroska container.

M$ could help here by adding a free MP4 menue browser to their OSes, like what they did for DVD menues ... we'll see ....

[Didée]

How closely is the menuing related to Matroska's 'Control Tracks'?
I understand that the implementation of a menuing system will take some time until it's there.
But I think quite some people (including me) would be very happy with a basic implementation of the Control Tracks, to be able to do seperately encode intro/outro/credits for series. It's a little poor to still have to do that with play lists.
But, if that is out of scope for the moment, then it is just so.

- Didée

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Didée But, if that is out of scope for the moment, then it is just so.

Not at all !! Control tracks are actually not SOO complicated to define, and a menue system could also build on top of it by calling several control tracks, when every control track can be started with a specific button in the menue.

Still, the players needed to support that, and again its TCMP with the CDL that would be closest to doing that, as development on the splitter filter has currently come to a halt more or less, and i am not sure if implementation of control tracks could be done at all based on DirectShow, without extending the DShow API like what Gabest and Toff have done for MKV chapter implementation.

But as Mosu has plans to start with a VFR based video editor now, i am not sure if he would implement that in libmatroska and mkvmerge for the time being ;) ...

[Mosu]

But as Mosu has plans to start with a VFR based video editor now, i am not sure if he would implement that in libmatroska and mkvmerge for the time being ;) ...

I DON't! Jesus, Chris, don't take every idea I think about as 'he's going to do it right now' :)

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Mosu
I DON't! Jesus, Chris, don't take every idea I think about as 'he's going to do it right now' :)

I literally say 'he has PLANS to do so, i did NOT say he will do it right now .... :confused: ..... :o ....

[Atamido]

I was looking at the MP4 menu tutorial on the GPAC/Osmo4 site and I think that it would be pretty easy to use the exact same authoring format to make Menu's in Matroska.

However, there is a problem with Copyrights and Patents. To quote Jean Le Feuvre from GPAC:Second thing regarding menus this is indeed a bit of a pb. The only standard managing sythetic content as data stream rather than static data i can think of is MPEG-4. However if by "open, readily available" you mean (which i suppose) existing specification without license fees then MPEG-4 is a bit of a pb since it's encombered with patents (i know it's a shame) and quite expensive (have a look at m4if web site). Perhaps the authoring format does not require fees and could be used as a basis? If so then this is probably the best option. However, if it is then there is the difficult task of starting a menu system from scratch.

[Beastie Boy]

However, with respect to hardware support we might strip it down a little bit, like leaving out all the flash animation part ( dont expect to get hardware support for that somewhen ).
It would be a shame not to have at least the option of animated menus. I see this as a huge bonus. Perhaps there is a need for different profiles, one which provides maximum compatibility, and another that encompasses all available features but without hardware support (for now).
I think if a new standard is being developed now, then there needs to be an eye to the future when hardware devices become much less resticted and are able to operate in modes much closer to that of a PC. We already have hardware support for DivX/XviD, how long would it take for support for other features to be integrated. It just requires people with the vision now to develop these standards so that their potential may be realised in time to come.

Bear in mind though that these are only the views of a potential end user as I have no idea about the development of such software.

Cheers, Beastie.

[Milkman Dan]

Originally posted by Beastie Boy
It would be a shame not to have at least the option of animated menus.


Which of course, is not to say that you can't make an animated menu the same way DVD-Video discs do animated menus.

I mean, if you're going to composite together in Flash an animation, it's only an one extra step to convert that to video in a format of your choice...

[raistlin2k]

Toff & me created once a kind of pre-specs for XCD-menus, perhaps they can be used as a base for matroska menus.

XCD-M is sill quite far in the future, as well as Matroska-Menus, I guess.

First, Matroska needs to get player-support for Audio-Stream-Names & working "vobsub inside".

Regarding XCD, it is still under development, still no header backup for "save" XCDs, so there is still other work to do than the menu.

If you want DVD_like menus now, check out microDVD, but unfortunately this player is discontinued, so no support for DX9, Ogg Vorbis & Vobsub.

Raist

[philtre]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
...like leaving out all the flash animation part ( dont expect to get hardware support for that somewhen ).

But it would be interesting to have Flash navigation for streaming MP4/MKV files. Ever think of that? Like in MOV and RM.

philtre