DVD-9 Authoring

[Xesdeeni]

Having played with DVD authoring for a while, it looks like I may get a chance to put together a commercial DVD. However, the content will need to go on a DVD-9. Unfortunately, the outfit I will be doing this for is low on the technology front (meaning they have no equipment), and doesn't have much $$$. So I'm looking for advice on what stuff I need to purchase (or better yet, have them purchase) for me to produce the DVD.

For this first project, I absolutely need:
* DVD-9
* AC3 audio support
* Multiple titles
* Multiple chapters per title
[The above two need to provide about 200 chapter points.]
* End of chapter/title link

I anticipate future projects might need:
+ AC3 audio encoding
+ Two audio tracks
+ Conditional menus
+ Sound with menus
+ Motion menus
+ Subtitles

1. What authoring software is recommended?

Sonic Scenarist (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?tool=13#comments) seems to be the Cadillac, but at $3000, it's out of the question.

Adobe's Encore DVD is an option, but if I'm going to upgrade from Win2K to WinXP (spit), then it better be worth the pain. I've read the resulting images aren't quite up to spec.

I don't see how Sonic DVD Maestro (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?tool=8#comments) can be an option unless we buy a used one, but they look like they go for >$3000 as well.

2. Will any old DLT drive work?

There are some on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2758709430&category=39978
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3434186061&category=11171
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2758239645&category=39978
etc.

3. Are there any legal issues with using BeSweet (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?tool=92#comments) to produce my AC3 audio for a production DVD?

If so, please recommend reasonably priced AC3 encoders.

4. In order to test my DVD during development, is it as simple as encoding the video at a lower bitrate, so that it will fit on a DVD*R, in order to test functionality, and then increasing the bitrate for the final product (plus setting the layer break)?

Are there any other "gotchas" that I'm missing?

[NOTE: Video and audio capture, editing, encoding, and graphic editing should not be issues.]

Xesdeeni

[ShaneZ]

Well, I am by no means an expert, but you are missing one obvious solution. You will need someone to do your DVD-9 project since we enthusiasts obviosly cannot do it (unless we are extremely rich or extremely lucky). There may be a company out there that will lay out your assets for you as well as mass produce the DVD. It may cost a little bit extra, but then again, purchasing DVD authoring software isn't exactly cheap either :)

[Xesdeeni]

I guess I wasn't clear: I'm doing the DVD, and I hope to parlay this into more work in the future. But all my previous experience has been with DVD-5 on a single-layer burner.

Any help is appreciated.

Xesdeeni

[maa]

Contact a CD / DVD duplicating plant - its highly likely that they make the master into DVD9 - not you.
Ask them what format you can deliver the files on.

[coona]

It is mostly DLT tape.

[auenf]

Originally posted by Xesdeeni
I don't see how Sonic DVD Maestro (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?tool=8#comments) can be an option unless we buy a used one, but they look like they go for >$3000 as well.

spruce you mean ;)

DVD Studio Pro 2.0 is the new DVDMaestro, and ive been using it for the last month, and its actually just as good as DVDMaestro, but runs on mac :(.



2. Will any old DLT drive work?


almost any old DLTtape drive would work, but make sure it takes type 3 or type 4 tapes.


3. Are there any legal issues with using BeSweet (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?tool=92#comments) to produce my AC3 audio for a production DVD?

If so, please recommend reasonably priced AC3 encoders.


besweet (or azid) created ac3 files dont work 100%, and even the docs say its still experimental.

for standalone software (DVD Studio Pro comes with an ac3 encoder, and i think a few other progs do too), minnetonka (www.minnetonkaaudio.com) has the surecode encoders, beware that there is a 2ch ac3 ver, and a full (up to)5.1 ac3 ver.


4. In order to test my DVD during development, is it as simple as encoding the video at a lower bitrate, so that it will fit on a DVD*R, in order to test functionality, and then increasing the bitrate for the final product (plus setting the layer break)?

basically, or you can compile it to video_ts folder and test with various software.

when formatting for DLT's, the authoring software will either automatically insert the layer break, or you have to specify it manually (usually on a chapter or cell break)


Are there any other "gotchas" that I'm missing?

[NOTE: Video and audio capture, editing, encoding, and graphic editing should not be issues.]

Xesdeeni

make sure to remember that DVD-9 isnt 2x DVD-5, its a little bit less ;)

Enf...

[Xesdeeni]

spruce you mean ;)Oops...sorry.DVD Studio Pro 2.0 is the new DVDMaestro, and ive been using it for the last month, and its actually just as good as DVDMaestro, but runs on mac :(Not a choice then.almost any old DLTtape drive would work, but make sure it takes type 3 or type 4 tapes.Can you point me to specifics on these types? Is this relative to tape storage capacity, physical tape size, or some other parameter? I need to be able to determine whether a DLT drive I can get on e-bay will do the job.for standalone software (DVD Studio Pro comes with an ac3 encoder, and i think a few other progs do too), minnetonka (www.minnetonkaaudio.com) has the surecode encoders, beware that there is a 2ch ac3 ver, and a full (up to)5.1 ac3 ver.Yeah, I found that from Dolby's site, but 600 bucks for 2 channels!? That's a bit unreasonable, given the price of the other pieces. I guess it'd be cheaper to find a less expensive authoring package that included an encoder (if such a thing exists), even if I couldn't actually use it for authoring a DVD-9.

And why does Sonic Foundry's plugin only work with ACID!?

It's too bad I'm not authoring a PAL DVD, then I could just use MP2 8-|.

Anyway, assuming we can't afford a commercial encoder, can we still use BeSweet, legally? It looks like we can't use the Dolby Digital logo without a licensed encoder, but do we violate any law otherwise? I've also got to check whether we lose the DVD logo if we don't have Dolby's permission....or you can compile it to video_ts folder and test with various software.I've found that the PC software is more forgiving than the stand-alone players, so I figured I'd need the more rigorous test. One of my DVDs played fine on the PC, but in my DVD-Video player it just stopped after the first play. It turned out I forgot to link the first play to the main menu. But the PC software went to the main menu anyway (I'm not really complaining...I always said I wanted the computer to do what I MEANT, not what I SAID :) ).

Xesdeeni

[maa]

http://www.dv411.com/vegasdvd.html#Package_Contents

http://www.nero.com/en/631898252786719.html

[Xesdeeni]

Well, Vegas+DVD would be cheaper than the 5.1 SureCode encoder ($999). But they cleverly avoid giving any serious details about DVD Architect (like number of audio channels, DLT support, DVD-9 support, etc.)

I wonder when the Nero version will show up...and how much.

Xesdeeni

[maa]

MyDVD 5.5 is around $99.- and has a DD 2.0 encoder. (worht it for the encoder - strip the AC3 output with ifoedit and re-author in DVD Lab :D )
Nero will only be AC3 2.0 too....

[SomeJoe]

I'd seriously recommend doing what auenf said: Check out DVD Studio Pro 2 for the Mac. Even though it only runs on a Mac with OS X, the combined price of DVD Studio Pro and a new or used Mac is still cheaper than the low-end version of Scenarist, and it meets all your requirements.

I've been looking at DVD Studio Pro's technical specifications (http://www.apple.com/dvdstudiopro/specs.html), and it appears to do everything you want: multiple titles, chapters, AC3 audio support (optional AC3 encoder), multiangle, subtitles, multiple audio streams, DVD-9 support, 16:9 support, output to DLT, etc. It also appears to import all Windows assets like .avi, .bmp, and .wav, and OS X appears to be able to connect to a Windows network share to move the files back and forth.

As far as your DLT drive, you can basically purchase almost any working DLT drive. DLT drives have been made in a variety of capacities, but virtually all are backward read compatible with later drives. For instance, if you can afford a used DLT4000 drive, your replicator can read the tape it produces even if they have a high-end SDLT320 drive. See this (http://www.quantum.com/pdfs/media_compatibility.pdf) backward compatibility table on Quantum's site for details.

As far as an AC3 encoder, there is the optional one for DVD Studio Pro, there is the Sonic Foundry plug-in, which works with ACID or Vegas Video, and little else in the low-end price range. BeSweet does not create 100% compliant AC3 streams, and is not a licensed or approved AC3 encoder.

You must use a licensed and approved encoder to use the Dolby Digital logo. You also have to sign a Trademark and Standardization Agreement (http://www.dolby.com/lic/ecm/tsa.html) with Dolby, but there is no fee.

You can't use the DVD Logo yourself, but your replicator can use it if they're licensed to do so. (Licensing it yourself is cost-prohibitive).

[SurfDrifter]

What i do, when i author a dvd-9 is this.
After compiling and writing in DLT, i use DVDShrink to make it fit in a DVD-5. I keep the menus at "No compression", so as the customer to judge the quality of menus. Don't forget to UNCHECK the "remove PUO's" and all other prohibited operations...

Much faster, than re-encoding at a lower bitrate and re-compiling.

[Xesdeeni]

Wow, this is some good info. Thanks to everyone!...the combined price of DVD Studio Pro and a new or used Mac is still cheaper than the low-end version of Scenarist...That's for sure! But I haven't used a Mac in nearly 10 years, and I wouldn't be able to use the other tools I want to use (MPEG encoder, Premiere, Photoshop, AVISynth, VirtualDub, etc.) without constantly transferring files back and forth (or buying the Mac versions).MyDVD 5.5 is around $99.- and has a DD 2.0 encoder. (worht it for the encoder - strip the AC3 output with ifoedit and re-author...)It looks like MyDVD 5 Deluxe is only $69 and has the encoder. I wonder if this encoder would allow me to license the Dolby Digital. Of course, I don't really care about the logo itself, I'm more concerned about getting sued for using an unlicensed DD encoder on a commercial product....you can basically purchase almost any working DLT drive...SWEET! There are some very cheap ones on eBay, so this is excellent news. I just have to get a SCSI card and I'm in business.You can't use the DVD Logo yourself, but your replicator can use it if they're licensed to do so.(In my best C. Montgomery Burns impersonation) Excellent ;). That logo I DO care about.After compiling and writing in DLT, i use DVDShrink to make it fit in a DVD-5....Much faster, than re-encoding at a lower bitrate and re-compiling.That's a fantastic idea!

But is it actually faster? Certainly it takes some time to re-compress the video. But for each iteration (and unfortunately, I find I need more than a few at this point), doesn't it take longer to compile the DVD-9 and convert it than just to compile a DVD-5?

Also, does the DLT data get written on a hard drive that can be accessed by DVDShrink, or does DVDShrink read it back off of the DLT?

Xesdeeni

[SurfDrifter]

Originally posted by Xesdeeni

But is it actually faster? Certainly it takes some time to re-compress the video. But for each iteration (and unfortunately, I find I need more than a few at this point), doesn't it take longer to compile the DVD-9 and convert it than just to compile a DVD-5?

Also, does the DLT data get written on a hard drive that can be accessed by DVDShrink, or does DVDShrink read it back off of the DLT?

Xesdeeni

DVDShrink doesn't interact with DLT! It's a simple as this!
Instead of "ripping" a dvd-9 in your hard disk and create a "backup" with DVDShrink, you actually create a dvd-9 project in your hard drive yourself and create a dvd-5 "backup" of YOUR compiled dvd-9 project!

The steps of making a DVD-9 are these:(At least with Maestro and Scenarist)
1) Compile the dvd-9 project
2) Create a DISK IMAGE file from the VIDEO_TS folder
3) Write to tape...

So, since you are creating a dvd-9, you WILL have to compile sooner or later to dvd-9!
So, in simple math, let's say compiling a dvd-9 takes about 15-25min(according to cpu and hdd). After that you need about 5-10min to create the image and about an hour for writing the 2 dlt's.
Now, you only need 20-30 min.more with DVDShrink to create a "duplicate" in a dvd-5 size.
If you re-compress the ALL VIDEO ASSETS you need with a fast cpu and CCE about half the time of each video! Let's say about 90min. and about 10 minutes preparation for the avs scripts. Now importing in the project the new videos takes about 10-15min. Compiling takes about 15min.
We're talking here for an excessive amount of time of 100m. at least.
Maybe it's acceptable for a project once in a while(i don't know why though,since it's for demo purposes!), but if you're compiling about 10-15 projects in a month, just like me, then we're talking for 16-25 hours lost!

Hope i helped you

[auenf]

firstly, the ac3 encoder for DVD Studio Pro (all versions) is included, not an optional extra.

other thing i thought of was steinberg, just checking their site now, but i know nuendo includes a ac3 export plugin, and i think you can get a ac3 encoder plugin for premiere pro as well.

http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/media_production/dde/index.php?sid=0

Enf...

[SomeJoe]

Originally posted by auenf
the ac3 encoder for DVD Studio Pro (all versions) is included, not an optional extra

My mistake. The tech specs page for DVD Studio Pro labeled the AC3 encoder and its features as the "A.Pack". Because of the word "pack", I believed this to be an add-on. But I guess it's actually part of the standard retail package.

Offers 5.1 encoding too, not just 2.0. And is a certified and licensed encoder.

[Xesdeeni]

The steps of making a DVD-9 are these (At least with Maestro and Scenarist) :
1) Compile the dvd-9 project
2) Create a DISK IMAGE file from the VIDEO_TS folder
3) Write to tape...

So, since you are creating a dvd-9, you WILL have to compile sooner or later to dvd-9!Unfortunately, I'm assuming later rather than sooner, after I've gone through 5-10 iterations of test DVDs.So, in simple math, let's say compiling a dvd-9 takes about 15-25min(according to cpu and hdd). After that you need about 5-10min to create the image and about an hour for writing the 2 dlt's.
Now, you only need 20-30 min.more with DVDShrink to create a "duplicate" in a dvd-5 size.Is DVDShrink much faster from a hard drive than from a DVD? It takes about 40-45 minutes from a DVD.If you re-compress the ALL VIDEO ASSETS you need with a fast cpu and CCE about half the time of each video! Let's say about 90min. and about 10 minutes preparation for the avs scripts. Now importing in the project the new videos takes about 10-15min. Compiling takes about 15min.
We're talking here for an excessive amount of time of 100m. at least.
Maybe it's acceptable for a project once in a while(i don't know why though,since it's for demo purposes!), but if you're compiling about 10-15 projects in a month, just like me, then we're talking for 16-25 hours lost!Well, I guess I was figuring I could set up the recompress at low quality, overnight, one time. Then I could use that set of video assets for the test DVD, over and over. A compile would take 15-25 minutes. But if I go the DVD-9 -> DVDShrink method, it would be 15-25 minutes to compile the DVD-9 and then 40-45 minutes (or 20-30 if it's faster on a hard drive) for DVDShrink. So each iteration would take longer. Am I missing something obvious here?

Xesdeeni

[SurfDrifter]

Well, maybe i didn't understand your question...

What kind of project will you create for your customer?
A DVD-9 or a DVD-5?
If it's a dvd-9, maybe you're missing sth obvious...
The fact that you want to deliver in a dvd-9!
Don't forget that the difference between a dvd-9 and a dvd-5 is the
filesize.
Every time you compile a dvd-5 or a dvd-9 project, a VIDEO_TS folder would be created.
Now, i understand that if you want to compile and compile and compile and compile and compile to infinity for test reasons, then yes, a dvd-5 test project is acceptable, but from my experience, you'll probably won't compile more than one-two times, correcting potential errors, such as forgeting to set a loop in a motion menu, or forgeting to set an END ACTION to a video asset...

Don't forget that most programs, have a built-in simulator, so it reduces the chances of having a bad compile.
So you compile your project and test it at first at your PC.

Now few tips for a succesful authoring.

1) NEVER, NEVER proof your project with PowerDVD
It overrides some of the functions that you might have set in your DVD, so it might actually behave different in a standalone.
For, instance, it always displays by default the first track of subtitles, even if you disable them by the Subpicture menu.
2) Wrong Field order in interlaced material.
A very common mistake that can ONLY be found when played in a standalone. And no, the TV out of your VGA doesn't help.
This means that you have to "burn" your test dvd and watch every video asset to a standalone player. Very time consuming. What i do, is this. I bought an old Creative DXR-3, installed the latest beta drivers(which are in fact of Sigma Design's) and i play the .m2v directly to a TV monitor via the DXR3 card. If the field order is wrong, it can be seen.
Oh and a very handy tip for DVDMaestro users. For some strange reason, this card can display on the fly motion menus within Menu Editor! It very cool. Just set the decoder to Sigma Designs, go to menu editor and press "Video Monitor". The output will be displayed at your TV. Very handy when you want to check how the buttons look on a TV and not a PC.
3) 16:9 aspect ratio menus.
I have seen commercial DVD's that the subpicture doesn't align with the background.
What happened is this. They compiled the project in Scenarist and set the menus for Wide & Letterbox together. In Scenarist you have to have TWO (2) different subpictures, one for each aspect(wide or letterbox). In DVDMaestro things are easier, since maestro AUTOMATICALLY creates the second subpicture.
Now, how come they didn't see this when they compiled?
The answer is simple. The DVD standards say that when a video(or still) has a 16:9 flag, then the player appropriatelly resize the video, so as it can be displayed correctly, BUT the subpicture is NOT resized! So far, so good, but the most common software DVD players, such as PowerDVD and WinDVD, resize EVEN the subpicture, so in a PC everything looks fine, but in standalones it doesn't!
Just make a test with Scenarist and see the same problem


So, if i didn't undestand your question, please tell me so.

[Xesdeeni]

Well, maybe i didn't understand your question...No, I think you understand.What kind of project will you create for your customer?
A DVD-9 or a DVD-5?DVD-9.Now, i understand that if you want to compile and compile and compile and compile and compile to infinity for test reasons, then yes, a dvd-5 test project is acceptable, but from my experience, you'll probably won't compile more than one-two times, correcting potential errors, such as forgeting to set a loop in a motion menu, or forgeting to set an END ACTION to a video asset...Heh heh. That's where we're probably at a disconnect. I am not good enough to compile these things only a time or two. It seems that I've needed at least 4-5 compiles, even for the simplest DVDs. Part of it has to do with me being picky. And part of it has to do with the fact that I don't seem to be able to test a bunch of things, make legible notes, and correct them all on the next compile. Also, I'm certain I won't get LESS picky for a truly commercial title.Don't forget that most programs, have a built-in simulator, so it reduces the chances of having a bad compile.I haven't had great luck with these. The most complex authoring software I've used is DVD Maestro, and the simulator didn't work.1) NEVER, NEVER proof your project with PowerDVD...Yes, I noticed this. It hides errors that show up on a stand-alone DVD player.Wrong Field order in interlaced material....watch every video asset to a standalone player.If the source and processing of all assets is the same, you can just run a test using a small portion and know that the whole thing will work.

I am very grateful for your advice!

My potential customer is dragging his feet, and I'm not entirely certain this will happen. It will most certainly take a bit more prodding on my part.

But while I wait and see, I was pondering the format on which the video would be supplied, and trying to determine the highest quality way to import it. I suspect the content was edited down to Beta SP. I can certainly rent a Beta SP deck to capture the video. But I'm not sure I have a high enough quality capture combination to do justice to the content.

I have captured (S-)VHS through my DV camcorder, but that introduces 4:1:0 subsampling, as well as JPEG-like compression. I have a MyHD card with analog SD inputs, but I haven't used them, so I have no idea what kind of quality I can expect from them. Perhaps I should just pay to have the data digitized, instead of renting the Beta SP deck in the first place. But then what codec should I have them use that I can process?

Xesdeeni

[SurfDrifter]

Originally posted by Xesdeeni
That's where we're probably at a disconnect. I am not good enough to compile these things only a time or two. It seems that I've needed at least 4-5 compiles, even for the simplest DVDs. Part of it has to do with me being picky. And part of it has to do with the fact that I don't seem to be able to test a bunch of things, make legible notes, and correct them all on the next compile. Also, I'm certain I won't get LESS picky for a truly commercial title.

Hehe! This kind of reach, reminds myself standing at my front door, just about to leave and i try to remember if i checked the windows, kitchen, or if i forgot something. ALWAYS, it seems that i haven't forgot anything. When i close the door behind me, something comes to my mind, reminding me what i have forgot. So, after too many times, the first thing i do is to close the door behind me! In your case, you have to compile to see what's wrong!


I haven't had great luck with these. The most complex authoring software I've used is DVD Maestro, and the simulator didn't work.

You just have to install Ravisent's Cinemaster DVD player to have the simulation work.
It seems to me that what you need more is experience to minimize
project times, until you find what best suits to you.

Good luck!

[Xesdeeni]

It seems to me that what you need more is experience...To quote the Budweiser commercials: TRUE.

Any suggestions on the commercial-quality capture front?

Xesdeeni

[SurfDrifter]

For capturing I use Sonic's SD-1000 which i believe yields very good quality...Expensive and limiting though.