Problems with 5.1 ogg and directshow filter

[nikogian]

Hi there,
I used to keem the sound for my movies in ac-3 format, recently I have decided to switch to ogg vorbis, but I faced the following problem.I transcode the ac-3 file to wav and then encode it with oggdropXPd, the resulting file plays perfectly in winamp (the channel order is fine etc.)but refuses to play at all in media player or any other program the uses the direct show filter! 2 channel ogg plays fine using ds but with 5.1 nothing!,when I go to the vorbis decoder option in ds it seems that the file is reckognized well (the channel nubmber and the sampls/sec are reported correctly)
I mention that i use the OggDS0995.exe and I tried both integer and ieee float options, audigy soundcard.
Is there something I can do to fix this? If not should I use an alternative to directshow to play my future ogm streams?

[tiki4]

Your problem is old and fixable indeed. The reason why it doesn't work seems to be that in OggDS 0.9.9.5 the channel ordering is somehow incorrect. If it is correct, then it is a problem with your Audigy sound card.
To correct your problem you need an additional DirectShow filter called ChannelDownmixer. While it can downmix any 6 channel to less it also can correct the channel ordering. You get it here (http://www.trombettworks.com) in the DirectShow filters section. Just configure it for 5.1 output and everything should work.

BUT: I think at the moment there isn't much sense using Ogg Vorbis for 6 channel encoding, as you won't get much lower bitrates than the original AC3 without destroying the quality. There seems to be a feature missing in current Ogg Vorbis encoders which ensures proper channel coupling. (This seems to be something like joint stereo encoding which uses similarities between left and right channel to more effectively encode the sound.) Your best bet for 5.1 encoding is Nero HE-AAC at the moment I think.

Cheers,

tiki4

[nikogian]

Thanks a lot,
I didn't know that ogg had channel coupling problems! My first decision was to encode the audio in aac but there is no high quality free encoder out there.Even the nero HE AAC was not very customizable (at least as far as I am concerned) and I was unable to adjust the cut-off frequency of the low-pass filter.A simple spectral analysis of the sound of a movie I was trying to encode (cube 2) showed that the ac-3 cut-off frequency was about 12500 Hz a wrong cut-off frequency would keep unecessary extra data.
Anyway, thanks again.

[tiki4]

Well, AFAIK current Vorbis has no proper implementation with channel coupling for multi channel sound, so in order to keep the quality (dunno about cut-off) without artifacts you get very high bitrates. Nero isn't free but isn't too expensive either and the HE-AAC encoder can go down to 128 kBit/s for 5.1 channels. An alternative which is in principle free is Real Audio (COOK) as can be found in Real Producer. The the new A/V codecs forum for more detail. You may (but I'm not sure) find more configuration options there.

tiki4

[Ramirez]

I've loads of movies muxed with Vorbis 6ch audio varies from 96 / 256 kbps and I never had any probs neither with "channel coupling" nor with some mysterious artifacts :P

For Vorbis encoding I'd suggest you to try DSPGuru's Besweet GUI, and for playback Matroska container + CoreVorbis Dshowfilter..

P.S
You don't really have to buy Nero Burning Rom for HE-AAC encoding as new AACmachine will support it right out of the box, (there are 3 Nero's own supporting DLL needed for encoding though, you'd have to find these files elsewhere.)

[tiki4]

Ramirez,

what settings did you use for encoding to 6 channel Ogg Vorbis? Even with HE-AAC with 'streaming' profile I can hear clear differences to the original AC3 sound. If you find that annoying or not is very subjective. But I sometimes encode concert DVDs where I want to keep the 6 channel sound, and I can tell pretty easily the difference.

CoreVorbis is indeed the better alternative, but I think ATM you have to change the container format to MKV. This isn't a big problem though.

You don't really have to buy Nero Burning Rom for HE-AAC encoding as new AACmachine will support it right out of the box, (there are 3 Nero's own supporting DLL needed for encoding though, you'd have to find these files elsewhere.)

Please don't advertise warez here.

tiki4

[Ramirez]

Originally posted by tiki4
what settings did you use for encoding to 6 channel Ogg Vorbis? Even with HE-AAC with 'streaming' profile I can hear clear differences to the original AC3 sound.

Well as I said I am using Besweet for vorbis encoding and off course there are easily noticeably differences between the original AC3 track and vorbis,:-0 the goal isn't bit2bit reproducing of the original sound (I'd mux original AC3 track instead)

Settings: usually it goes like this: VBR encoding\5.1 preset #1\downmix levels OFF\ dynamic compression-normal\HybridGain\SampleRate:48000

As I said I never I never had any problems with vorbis 5.1 audio, channels separation is nice and no strange artifacts so far() sometimes I have to Preamp the audio and slightly boosting low frequencies ,but nothing more serious then that.

If you find that annoying or not is very subjective. But I sometimes encode concert DVDs where I want to keep the 6 channel sound, and I can tell pretty easily the difference
Nothing personal, in fact I like the way you're helping folks around here, it's just somewhat annoyed me the way you've offered this guy to jump on Ahead bandwagon without mentioning an alternative solutions (such as use of Besweet GUI, MKV, CoreVorbis etc) @nicogian: you'll love BesweetGUI , I promise..:)

Please don't advertise warez here.
Bah, don't jump to conclusions; (I am more then aware of this forum rules) these binaries are easily accessible for anyone who has downloaded a Trial Version of NBR suite or Nero Mix application.

[tiki4]

Sorry, sorry.

No, I didn't want him to "jump on the Ahead bandwagon" (that's a nice one :D ). I just wanted to state my opinion. You're of course right with MKV and CoreVorbis. Maybe I should give it another shot with new vorbis 1.0.1. So nothing to be offended of, I think first half of my first post is the thing that immediately helps. I own Audigy myself and had the very same problem some long time ago. ChannelDownmixer was developped because of that problem (of course MKV is always better :p ).

But what I still want to know, what bitrates do you get with -q 0.1?

tiki4

[Ramirez]

Sorry for such a long silence (had no time at al) anyway this is how Q-01 encoded OGG stream identified in winamp media info page.

Length : 1:52:01
Average bitrate : 191 kbps
File size : 175,517,185 bytes
Nominal bitrate : 288 kbps
Channels : 6
Sampling rate: 48000 Hz

Hope this answers your question. :)

Regards.

[tiki4]

Thanks.

I will try that and listen...

tiki4

[hofmetzger]

Originally posted by Ramirez

Bah, don't jump to conclusions; (I am more then aware of this forum rules) these binaries are easily accessible for anyone who has downloaded a Trial Version of NBR suite or Nero Mix application.

Oh, why didn't say somebody this earlier? i always thought there is no legal way to use BSN without buying nero.

So i downloaded the NBR-Demo and the nero-mix-demo, but i did not find aac*.dll's in any of them. So what do i have to look for (which download and which dll's)?

[Ramirez]

You can find these files here: "C:\program Files\Common Files\Ahead\AudioPlugins"

Just copy the following files into the BSN folder and once that is done you're set to go.

Aac.dll
Aacenc32.dll
NeroIPP.dll

[hofmetzger]

thanks a lot. encoding seem to work - im using BeSweetv1.5b22.
BeSweet -core( -input "s:\dieanotherday\bonus\q.ac3" -output "s:\dieanotherday\bonus\dad_q.mp4" -logfilea "BeSweet.log" ) -bsn( -2ch )

but i just can't play them back. I installed 3ivx 4.0.4, coreAAC (which is from Oct 17) and in_AAC (winamp-plugin).
I'm not able to play the encoded files in MPC or Winamp, and i can't mux them into mkv (mkvmerge 0.7.2).

mpc says that i dont have the needed codecs
winamp says that gain control isnt implemented
mkvmerge says "Demultiplexer failed to initialize. Quicktime/MP4 reader could not read the source file"

i hope it just another stupid mistake i made, so i can enjoy aac soon:rolleyes:

edit: should have said it earlier: all is working with BeSweet1.5b23

[Sirber]

Hi

I have some problem with RA@5.1 and I'm thinking about switching to vorbis. Could anyone give me some settings for BeSweet? My goal as usual is lowest bitrate, highest quality :D

My source is Léon - The Professional, 5.1, AC3. I'm trying it right now with Nominal: 64, Max: 96.

[tiki4]

Hi Sirber,

if you encode to Vorbis you should definitely use the quality presets (-q 0.0 to 1.0). Also you might want to get libvorbis.dll 1.0.1 from rarewares and put it into the BeSweet folder (don't forget libmmd.dll). It seems to have some improvements in the low bitrate range. You might try OggMachine as a frontend for encoding or otherwise try

besweet -core( -input in.ac3 -output out.ogg -logfile blah.log ) -azid( "what you like in here" ) -ogg( -q 0.1 -6ch )

Give it a try.

tiki4

[jjseth]

@hofmetzger
With OagMachine switch on the "export Iso.....AAC" option and try this filter (works with CoreAAC) to play the AAC file in MPC.
AAC_parser (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/aac_parser.zip)
Sorry my poor english.;)

[Asmodeus]

I don't know what you all people see in HE-AAC 5.1 at 128kbps or even higher bitrate :confused: . Sound is wery distracted, and you don't need to be a audiophill to hear the diference. I've used 5ch ogg (optional 6ch makes no diference for bitrate) and with ~180kbps the sound is almost the same as in oryginal AC3 track, and definitely beter as in AAC (with same file size as OGG). Problem is only that OGG sound track can't be propertly decodet by oggDS (in most cases), and you need to use mkv container to use coreVorbis filter.
Sorry for my crappy english ;)

[hofmetzger]

Originally posted by jjseth
@hofmetzger
With OagMachine switch on the "export Iso.....AAC" option and try this filter (works with CoreAAC) to play the AAC file in MPC.
AAC_parser (http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/aac_parser.zip)
Sorry my poor english.;)

as i wanted to say in the edit of my last post, i have no problem any longer. but anyway, its a very useful filter you linked, so i can test the encodes without putting them in a matroska. very nice, thank you.

hofmetzger, member of the "poor english club"