Seamless branching (?) in scenarist please, help

[DmitryM]

I'm not sure about terminology, is it 'Seamless branching' or not.
So, the question is:
Example - I have a movie with 4 chapters.
I want to make two versions of it:
1 version: Chapters 1,2,4
2 version: Chapters 1,2,3

Is it possible to make seamless both versions? How?

I try to use search, but could not find the answer.
I read "seamless branching OxP" but this is about reauthoring right?

Thank you,

Dmitry

[influenza]

Yes you can use seamless branching here. You probably need 4 pieces of video here (one for each chapter)

Create two PGCs in your project. Create the as yu've told in your thread. (pgc1 = 1,2,4 and pgc2 1,2,3)

[Crazyjoe]

It won't be seamless branching. Scenarist doesn't support seamless branching!

It will put the two videos physically twice on the disc and that is NOT seamless branching. The only "trick" Scnearist supports is, it will put a video only once on the disc if you use that one track twice or more times in the same VTS!

To say it clear:

You can do it your way, but you will have to put the video twice on the disc which will take twice as much space!

[Eyes`Only]

I have no idea what crazyjoe is talking about. Of course it wont be on the disc twice if you do it correctly. Simple create 3 tracks:

1: chapter 1 and 2
2: chapter 3
3: chapter 4

Then in the scenario, create two titles:

1: track 1 + track 3
2: track 1 + track 4

This will NOT use twice the amount of space, I have no idea where that statement came from but it's 100% INCORRECT. How can you possibly claim that a $38,000 app doesn't support a simple thing like this?

Crazyjoe: your attempted help is appreciated, but please do not make blanket statements about an app unless you know them to be correct, as misinformation is usually worse than non-information!

[Crazyjoe]

@ Eyes Only

Of course it will work, when you create different tracks for the different chapters. But you have to split the video beforehand. And that is not what I understand of a software supporting seamless branching.

I'm sorry if I'm mistaken in this point.

[Eyes`Only]

Crazyjoe: OK, I'll bite. How do you interpret it?

[DmitryM]

Thank you for your answers, offcourse, in my question I wont to find out if there is a trick in Scenarist, how to realize seamless branching, because I know there are movies, made with scenarist with such "branching" but how?:confused:

Sorry, may be I gave a wrong example. It is may be to simple.

[Eyes`Only]

DMitryM: i just explained that. I can't really help you if you don't understand the basics of Scenarist. Anyone that does would easily interpret my answer.

[Crazyjoe]

Originally posted by Eyes`Only
Crazyjoe: OK, I'll bite. How do you interpret it?

What I meant was: if you arrange the chapters like in your example you will have a seamless branching effect, that's true.

But Scenarist will put every track as many times on the final dvd as it appears in the scenario. That is what I meant.

So if you have like in your example:

Track 1: Chapters 1 + 2
Track 2: Chapter 3
Track 3: Chapter 4

and arrange it like this:

Title 1: Track 1 + 2
Title 2: Track 1 + 3

you will finally have your 2 versions of the same material, but chapters 1 and 2 will be TWICE on the disc! This has a seamless branching effect, but is not a seamless branching technique in my understanding.

For example: the beloved Matrix DVD. The movie is when analysing the IFO structure 3 times on the disc, but in fact only 1 time! The same video data is arranged in different ways. And THAT is seamless branching. Arranging the same videodata in different ways, but depending on disc space being only one time on the disc. And Scenarist doesn't do that.

But please correct me if this is not right.

[Eyes`Only]

No, what you describe is not right. Scenarist, in the above example, authored correctly like I described in my first post, will create the movie in the same way that you described The Matrix. It will use only the space needed for track 1 once, track 2 once, and track 3 once. The IFO simply contains 'pointers' to the starts of each track to tell it where to go, which Scenarist manages automatically also.

You can, and I actually know many that have, recreated The Matrix in it's entirety using Scenarist, including all of it's seamless branching, etc. Heck there's even a guide on Doom9 to do so!

"Button Over Video in the Matrix with Scenarist"-- http://www.doom9.org/mpg/ButtonOverVideo.htm

"Seamless Branching with Scenarist"-- http://www.doom9.org/mpg/Seamless_Branching.htm

[Crazyjoe]

@ Eyes Only

Thanks for the info. :)

I thought that you would have to use the authoring programs of Sony or Toshiba instead. I once tried to use the same track more than once on the disc and in the project size calculations the final disc was as many times bigger as the multiple use of that particular track would have caused it.

I also read in another forum about that Scenarist behaviour. Therefore I thought - altough it seemed wired - that the program isn't capable of doing so.

[Eyes`Only]

Crazyjoe: You're quite welcome.

If you actually dragged the track in twice and then used one of each of those instances in your scenario it would use double the space because it would think they were two separate tracks. The trick is the drag the same track from the assets window (bottom right) to the scenario, not to drag files from explorer into it, or anything similar. It sounds like both yourself and the poster of the thread you read didn't have a firm grasp of how to use Scenarist effectively. It's all about the scenario editor, that's where all the magic takes place :)

[Crazyjoe]

It wasn't quite so. The problem was, I needed that track once with subtitle tracks, the other time without the sub tracks. Therefore it wasn't the same track, but used the same video and audio source from the data editor. That was my mistake.

It would have been easier do disable the subtitle availability flag. ;) :D

[Eyes`Only]

ahh... makes sense now ;)

[influenza]

Wow have I been out all day, did I miss all the fun of discussing this seamless branching stuff :D

[GM006]

Influenza... yeah I missed it too...:(

[DmitryM]

Thank you All for your replies!

I could not access the forum for a while, I read replies now only.
Thanks, I will try that.

(I also thought that scenarist will put onto the DVD the same tracks twice..)

Eyes`Only, Is it possible to read somewhere this "How to use scenarist effectievly", which you mentioned??

[influenza]

When you reuse parts of the same track in multiple PGCs you'll do seamless branching 'effectively'

[Eyes`Only]

The guides I mentioned above would be good sources.

[cbladon]

Using scenarist 2.7 I tried to do what was suggested previously in this thread:

Title-1: track-1 SM track-2 SM track-3
Title-2: track-1 SM track-2 SM track-4

The result: the data exists only once on the disk (according to Tools->Sort Tracks) as was argued properly in this thread as being possible. Title-1 is all seamless (SM) and in Title-2 it is seamless from Track-1 to Track-2 but non-seamless (NSM) to Track-4. In other words:

Title-1: track-1 SM track-2 SM track-3
Title-2: track-1 SM track-2 NSM track-4

This is because the tracks are ordered on the disk linearly as track-1, track-2, track-3, track-4 and Scenarist won't do a seamless transition between tracks that aren't ordered sequentially on the disk. If you change the ordering of track 3 and 4, via Tools->Sort Tracks) to be track-1, track-2, track-4, track-3, then you'll get:

Title-1: track-1 SM track-2 NSM track-3
Title-2: track-1 SM track-2 SM track-4

So, "no-joy" either way.

BTW, I have read the Seamless Branching in Scenarist Guide here on doom9. I followed the guide in the sense of authoring a new DVD - i.e. I didn't do all the ripping; I used new assets. If I understand it properly, this guide doesn't produce a seamless branching DVD. It is a guide for ripping a seamless branching DVD and re-authoring it into a non-SB DVD. In other words, yes, the resulting DVD will have the VOBs only once on the disk, but some of the transitions will be non-SB and therefore will have pauses.

Based on the Scenarist docs, experimentation, and other postings, I believe that it is not possible in any way to do seamless branching or even to simulate it properly in Scenarist. TFDVDEdit (a mac tool) is soon to release a tool that will hack on the post-authored DVD VOB, et alii, files in order to produce seamless branching.

Is there *any* tool out there that will do seamless branching on the PC that doesn't cost $70k?!?!?

[Crazyjoe]

Originally posted by cbladon

Is there *any* tool out there that will do seamless branching on the PC that doesn't cost $70k?!?!?

Honestly?

No, you won't find any. Only the Authoring solutions from Toshiba and Sony can do real seamless branching, and they cost far more than Scenarist.

Scenarist is the "cheapest" program, which is capable of some basic, very simple kind of seamless branching. (Same track used multiple times within the same VTS).

[cbladon]

Originally posted by Crazyjoe
Scenarist is the "cheapest" program, which is capable of some basic, very simple kind of seamless branching. (Same track used multiple times within the same VTS).

I guess I wouldn't call "same track....multiple times" seamless branching. It's just the basic behaviour of PGCs, Programs, Cells, etc.

Part of my purpose was to counter some of the rough treatment you (crazyjoe) got from "Eyes only" about your statement that Scenarist doesn't support SB. Your (crazyjoe) statements were, in fact, 100% correct and he was confused. Anyway, the end result is the same - there's nothing out there :) Tschuess!

MFG,
Chris

[Eyes`Only]

cbladon: are you an idiot or just looking for a strike? He said that Scenarist would use the space twice for the same video. You claim this is '100% correct'? You're either insane or illiterate or both.


To say it clear:

You can do it your way, but you will have to put the video twice on the disc which will take twice as much space!

I'd like to see where you claim I said something that was incorrect.

[cbladon]

Eyes' Only: obviously you didn't understand CrazyJoe's original post and you're obviously looking for a fight because you jump on anything that anyone says. Go back and read his post and the following carefully before you craft up another flame as juvenile as the last one.

You have two options with Scenarist when trying to create two differently sequenced titles of the same material:

1) seamless playback of the two titles with duplicated content
2) non-seamless playback of the two titles with no duplicated content

Neither of these is "seamless branching"!!!! CrazyJoe's orignal post pointed out these two options. His main and correct point was that in order to achieve seamless *playback*, you must duplicate the VOBs (option #1). And, as he said, this is NOT seamless branching. If you go with option #2, you won't get duplicate VOB data but you also won't get seamless playback. This certainly isn't seamless branching.

I think the problem here is the confusion over the terms seamless branching and seamless playback.

[Eyes`Only]

What I meant was: if you arrange the chapters like in your example you will have a seamless branching effect, that's true.

But Scenarist will put every track as many times on the final dvd as it appears in the scenario. That is what I meant.

So if you have like in your example:

Track 1: Chapters 1 + 2
Track 2: Chapter 3
Track 3: Chapter 4

and arrange it like this:

Title 1: Track 1 + 2
Title 2: Track 1 + 3

you will finally have your 2 versions of the same material, but chapters 1 and 2 will be TWICE on the disc! This has a seamless branching effect, but is not a seamless branching technique in my understanding.

[cbladon]

did you even read my response?

[Dimmer]

That's a lot of fighting going on here, and I guess all of it is because of the sad fact that Scenarist does not support seamless branching. I'd say cbladon summarized it quite nicely. If you want nice seamless playback, you'll have to put your video material twice (or more) on the disc. If you want to put the video only once and utilize branching, it won't be seamless, i.e. sometimes you'll get pauses at the branching points. The reason for this is clearly stated in Scenarist manual: in order for two cells to play seamlessly, they have to be physically adjacent on the disc.

I wish there was some way around this, but I guess the software capable of seamless branching is not available to the general public since even its name isn't mentioned around here.

[Arky]

If you have a MAC, you can do this for just over $1k. I would argue that that's better than $70k. And YES, it is TRUE seamless-branching.


Arky ;o)

[FilipeAmadeuO]

And what program do you use ??

[influenza]

Does this mac program (which one is it?) support DTS? Because I heard there was a kinda cheap mac proggie that could do this, but there is no DTS support

[Arky]

Well, since you have asked me, FilipeAmadeuO, the program is TFDVDEdit2 (http://www.tfdvdedit.com/)

And no, influenza, it doesn't (yet!) support DTS implementation. Nevertheless, it is an awesome program and is in intensive development to add increased functionality. If you are seriously interested in this program, then you should bear in mind that it is due to go up from $699 to $1299 *VERY* soon.


Arky ;o)

[influenza]

It almost sounds like you know the developers very well ;)

[Clown shoes]

Wow, this software looks unreal. It could really change the face of DVD authoring. At last true seamless branching, without buying a Toshiba system and so much more to boot. Just need to get myself a mac now to cover me until the windows port happens.

@Arky. Just read your post on Trey's site. Sounds like your really getting involved in the development of these new features. For someone who isn't a DVD author by profession. You sure are helping making life easier for those of us who are. I salute you sir.

Clown Shoes

[cbladon]

Quick questions about TFDVDEdit2:

1) will it have a PC port and when?
2) is it as easy to get seamless branched video as is advertised?

PS. Thanks for the support dimmer!

[Clown shoes]

Cbladon, check out the link Arky provided. The PC port will happen once the mac version has been succesfull (not long I'm guessing) It appears it's not too system intensive so you should be able to pick up a cheap old mac and run it on there for the time being. As far as the seamless branching goes, I think they are just implimenting it within the latest version, but from the way it seems it won't be a complicated process to use at all. Trey has set up a forum where you can ask him and other users. There is also a manual downloadable from the site. check it out.

Clown Shoes

[influenza]

Ah I read on the forum that you're (arky) work for TFDVDEdit2 for some time. Congratulations to you :).

Right now I've no interest in or money for a MAC app, so I'll just wait.

[Arky]

I feel it is only fair for me to clarify that I have not contributed in any way to the coding of TFDVDEdit2. I am a relative newcomer to the program (as my initial posts to Trai will illustrate), but have been so impressed that I jumped at the chance to become involved with the program on a non-coding-related basis. I do not stand to make any material 'gain' from the program's success (which it wil undoubtedly be) - I am simply happy to be involved with something which has, and will, give the DVD authoring industry a sorely-needed boot up the backside.

As everyone on Doom9 knows, commercial DVD-authoring software development has been criminally stagnant (mostly for political reasons which I shall not discuss here) for the last few years. Finally, a few committed individuals have come up with something which, although, admittedly, not available for just a few cents, should nevertheless be applauded for the manner in which it will open up (in partnership with your conventional DVD authoring software) virtually all of those DVD spec features which, as Clown shoes said, have hitherto been unavailable to anyone with less than $300k in their pocket. Irrespective of my recent involvement, I think time will prove the sentiments I have expressed here to be genuine and sincere, and truthfully not the product of materialistic motives. See this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37607&highlight=arky+speculating) for a discussion I began quite some time ago, and you will see where I am coming from. :)

Regards,


Arky ;o)

[influenza]

Well I was not implying at all you would gain any material benefits from it ;). Although I assume you will get a fair payment for it (which would be logical to. Do a job, het paid for it).

So I hope I didn't leave you with the impression I was critising you or anything :)

[Arky]

No, no - what I wrote wasn't meant defensively towards anyone, least of all you. I was simply clarifying that my reasons for discussing the program were not materially motivated. I just know a landmark program when I see one! :)


Arky ;o)

[influenza]

Well push them towards a windows release as well ;)

[Arky]

I can assure you that Trai and Co. fully intend to port 'Edit to Windows (after all, they'd be fools not to, given the size of the Windows DVD authoring market!), but the problem is, they're going hell-for-leather developing cutting edge capabilities which the market sector hasn't seen before. Therefore, it is difficult to judge when to put new features on hold and to divert resources to porting to Windows.

As you will see, following N.A.B., there is a lot of ongoing work, which has kept the coding team running flat-out.

I cannot speak for Trai, but I personally suspect that resources will be channelled towards a Windows port by the end of this year, although how long it will take for the port to actually be completed is anyone's guess. We shall see. Don't forget that it's not simply a case of 'recompiling' the existing MAC code - it's a very complex program and much of the code will have to be completely re-written, from the ground up, for the Windows platform.

I look forward to the Windows version just as much as the next man :) (although I've yet to see any authoring software on the Windows platform to match what DVD Studio Pro offers, for less than $10,000, so many people will still prefer to use TFDVDEdit on the MAC, alongside DVD SP2. Adobe Encore and Ulead DVD Workshop 2 are a big improvement in the Windows authoring sector, but they still have a long way to go to match DVD SP2, despite it's much-publicised flaws).


Arky ;o)

[Eyes`Only]

since it's Mac currently, would a port to linux be quicker/easier? If we could use knoppix via boot cd and be able to use their app we could be placated much sooner I'd think.

[Arky]

Interesting proposition, and I don't know what Trai would think of that, but I imagine he might (as I do) question the commercial logic of porting to a platform which does not, itself, offer a heavyweight DVD authoring app. Remember that 'Edit is primarily intended to serve professionals who already own existing authoring programs but who need more of the DVD spec opened up to them by partnering 'Edit with what they already own.

I could ask him for you (and I'm happy to), but perhaps you'd be better served by getting an answer yourself, directly 'from the horses mouth', so-to-speak, by posting on the public TFDVDEdit forum. :)


Arky ;o)

[Eyes`Only]

The OS platform (linux) does not, I agree, however the hardware it can run on (x86) does. It's simply an alternative that wouldn't require hardware purchasing. I would bet hundreds wouldn't be opposed to having to shutdown and reboot their box with a knoppix boot disk to fix their seamless branching, if it meant they didn't have to change a bit of hardware. Of course, this is kind of an imaginary situation, since linux still isn't plug and play yet, but it's getting there slowly hehe

[Arky]

Well, that is a more logical proposition - I see what you mean now. Interesting :)


Arky ;o)