DV codec better/stable motion than MPEG2?

[DYEWiTNEZ]

I noticed this yesterday. I have a Pinnacle Studio Deluxe, and I recorded something from TV. When I look at the DV avi file, the motion is very stable/sharp.

When I encode this to a DVD compliant MPEG2 file with TMPGEnc, the motion is far more blurry and it almost looks like it doesn't run at the full 25 fps (I know it does, but it looks like it!).

Ofcourse I know the DV codec has much higher bitrate, but that doesn't influence the motion right? I tried different settings with TMPGEnc with different guides, but never found a solution. Is it just the drawback of DV vs. MPEG2? Because I can remember seeing DVD movies which also had very good motion.

Sorry for the weird English, doing my best! :sly:

[scharfis_brain]

did you use the right fieldorder while encodiung to mpeg-2?

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Yeah, I used the top AND bottom options both. Still the same result.

Maybe I'm just being a prick about the quality. I will try to upload 2 shorts clips, maybe that will make things a little more clear.

edit:
By the way, my standard is PAL and i'm using PowerDVD to playback the file.

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Ok i've uploaded 2 samples:

DV (http://www.systemparts.nl/PRINCE_DV.avi)

and

Encoded MPEG2 file (http://www.systemparts.nl/PRINCE_MPG.mpg)

As you can see, the motion is quite bad compared to the DV one. Hope this helps making my problems clear. :)

[theReal]

probably the mpeg2 motion seems a bit more blurry because DV does only use keyframes while mpeg2 does not.

I couldn't look at the examples because I'm at a very old box at work which won't play anything above 160x160 pixels ;)

[vhelp]

hi dyewitnez,

I've never tried PAL sources before, so your's was my first.

I had lots of problems encoding the PAL .avi clip, cause I've never
seen such an unusual PAL interlace. Anyways...

As it turns out, I had to swap the field order (using vdub's Field Swap)
in my first line. At least to me, it seemed to help w/ the quality.
I also used the new vdub filter, 4:1:1 Helper and I set it to
(o) Interpolate 4:1:1 to 4:4:4 and then performed a de-interlace
on it. I realize that you didn't do this, as for MPEG-2 does not need
to be deinterlaced, but you did complain that the quality was poor,
so I was assuming that you wanted to know if there were other ways to
improve the quality (assuming again, for PC viewing)

But, as always, one an de-interlace is performed, you loose some detail
or quality. Not a whole lot.., but to each his/her own, right ?

Anyways... I'm sure other's here can do better (and post their results
too) :)

-vhelp

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Originally posted by vhelp
hi dyewitnez,

I've never tried PAL sources before, so your's was my first.

I had lots of problems encoding the PAL .avi clip, cause I've never
seen such an unusual PAL interlace. Anyways...

As it turns out, I had to swap the field order (using vdub's Field Swap)
in my first line. At least to me, it seemed to help w/ the quality.
I also used the new vdub filter, 4:1:1 Helper and I set it to
(o) Interpolate 4:1:1 to 4:4:4 and then performed a de-interlace
on it. I realize that you didn't do this, as for MPEG-2 does not need
to be deinterlaced, but you did complain that the quality was poor,
so I was assuming that you wanted to know if there were other ways to
improve the quality (assuming again, for PC viewing)

But, as always, one an de-interlace is performed, you loose some detail
or quality. Not a whole lot.., but to each his/her own, right ?

Anyways... I'm sure other's here can do better (and post their results
too) :)

-vhelp
Thanks for taking the time! Well, i'm gonna try it now!

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Where can i find this 4:1:1 helper filter?

and:

I want to optimize for TV viewing, not for PC. Sorry haven't been clear about this! I just tried the fieldswap with and without deinterlace and encoded it to MPEG2, but the motion is not optimal like the DV file...

Maybe PowerDVD is the problem? Maybe I should try and burn to DVD and watch it on TV? What are the best settings for that? Keep the source interlaced and just encode it like it is with TMPGEnc? (so: interlaced source, bottom field first in tmpegenc?)

[scharfis_brain]

@DYEWiTNEZ
After intense testing I couldn't see any difference between the DV and the MPEG according the motion!

I've tested both clips by loading them into avisynth an applying separatefields(). Both clips were running very nice with full 50fps!

When I encode this to a DVD compliant MPEG2 file with TMPGEnc, the motion is far more blurry and it almost looks like it doesn't run at the full 25 fps (I know it does, but it looks like it!).

Please don't compare interlaced Video when playbacking on PC!

Always burn to CD/DVD and watch how it looks on TV with the DVD-Standanlone-Player!

btw, your MPG (the sample) will run without probs on the DVD-player
there is no need for further experiments!

I had lots of problems encoding the PAL .avi clip, cause I've never
seen such an unusual PAL interlace. Anyways...
I can't foolow! Why is this unusual PAl interlace? Okay, its a NTSC (60i) to PAL (50i) conversion, but that doesn't matter in this case, just treat it like normally interlaced PAL-Video.

And deinterlacing ins't always a good idea since it will destroy the 50fps-look of the video! And because of this special case (this video is converted from NTSC2PAL) deinterlacing will introduce motion jitter!

[vhelp]

Hi dyewitnez,

Let me do a (search) button search, and I'll get back to you. I had
some help w/ a DV issue in a previous topic and FredThompson was the
person who helped me w/ this filter (and where to find it)

Just remember, there's a zillion ways to perform something, and it all
depends (success that is) on each persons setup and things. But, do
give it a shot in your situation.

I use the TMPG deinterlace filter, but I also fiddled w/ vdubs and
AVS's as well. I kind of lost track w/ which filter I use LOL, in your
sample I did.. but I'll see if I can post it here (U/L) and provide
you w/ a link today.

If your given deinterlace doesn't work, two things you need to observe
here:

1 - did you use the same source ie, Prince tv show (or did you use (test)
....other clips w/ a given deinterlace
2 - the tv source's interlace can be different and will be reflected
....upon your final encode. So, do expect to see some differences when
....you encode using the same deinterlace filter, but for various types
....of tv shows and things !!

-vhelp

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain
@DYEWiTNEZ
After intense testing I couldn't see any difference between the DV and the MPEG according the motion!

I've tested both clips by loading them into avisynth an applying [b]separatefields(). Both clips were running very nice with full 50fps!
Well, it's very hard for me to explain what I'm seeing. When i look at the DV file (also on my PC monitor), i see that the motion is much smoother than the mpg one. Not that the mpg has frameskips, but it looks more blurry and less sharp/stable than the DV one. It kinda looks like the DV file is speeded up (which of course isn't), but that effect is what i see... (sorry i'm dutch, hard to talk technical slang here :D)

Anyway, thanks for taking the time!! I will try to burn to DVD and see if it's better.

[vhelp]

hi scharfis_brain :)

I'm not saying that I'm an expert in these areas, though I've had my
plentiful share of them.

As for the PAL interlace that I had trouble w/ and that you commented on,
I stated that because in using my tipicle deinterlace filter(s) the
results were NOT the same as in my NTSC results. They were (and imo)
difficult to work with, because I have no experience w/ PAL sources
and their respective interlace issues. Only NTSC one!!

Yes, I realize the issues w/ encoding Interlace to MPEG-2 and that it's
the prefered method - I'm in agreement w/ you here :)
But, I too, like to deinterlace my sources for other various reasons,
among them divX and tickering around.

I got the assumption that the poster here was trying to see what kinds
of other results could be expected/obtained if he performed a deinterlace
on it, and I was just sharing my experience (not giving recommnending)
but in any case... :)

@ DYEWiTNEZ..

I hope you make out ok in your endeavors :)
-vhelp

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Also, i think this is a very good explanation:

Originally posted by theReal
probably the mpeg2 motion seems a bit more blurry because DV does only use keyframes while mpeg2 does not.

It really looks like the mpeg2 file is "interpolating" between the frames. Or am I just talkin like a n00b here? :D

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Hold up!!

I just watched it and check the properties/stats of the mpeg2 decoder filter! I found this:

"Average fps: 23.68" after playing the clip!! Is this the explanation?

[scharfis_brain]

It really looks like the mpeg2 file is "interpolating" between the frames.

it is not the MPEG-File, that interpolates between two fields, it is the MPEG-2-Playback-Decoder, which does a very simple (and stupid) deinterlacing by blending two fields together!
The MPEG-2-File contains (nearly) the same content as the DV-Video. The motion is quite identical, only your PC suggests, that there is a difference, which doesn't exist.

As I've said before, Don't compare the results accourding motion an PC always compare on the TV set with your DVD-SAP!

[bb]

As far as I can see there's nothing wrong with neither the DV nor the MPEG-2 file. The MPEG-2 file plays fine in WinDVD; it's interlaced, though. Try to use ReStream to change the tff/bff flag if the video plays back jumpy on the standalone.

bb

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Thanks guys, I'm gonna burn it on DVD tomorrow and compare again! Either way you made many things more clear for me.

Thanks for all the time you took to help me out, excellent!

[vhelp]

@ dyewitnez,

Filter:
* http://www.trbarry.com/ReInterpolate411.zip

Dicussion:
* http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58674

Hope this help you out in any case :)
-vhelp

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Originally posted by vhelp
@ dyewitnez,

Filter:
* http://www.trbarry.com/ReInterpolate411.zip

Dicussion:
* http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58674

Hope this help you out in any case :)
-vhelp
Thanks a million. Gonna try it anyway, always need for new plugins!!

[DYEWiTNEZ]

Well, i burned the MPEG2 files to a DVD and you guys were right! On TV it's perfect! What did i learn from this lesson? Never compare videos on a VGA monitor!! :D

Thanks guys!