Nero Digital info thread

[bond]

from my insider connections :D i got the following informations about Nero Digital:

- ND will be released within a month (it's almost finished)
- it is claimed to be better and faster than most of the current mpeg-4 implementations (only DivX at the very slowest mode is better, but ND is a lot faster)
- ND will be available independently from nero burning rom (including he-aac encoding)
- ND will output .mp4 only (Nero Recode will have a direct export to MP4 option)
- because of licensing issues ahead "may need to restrict the directshow filter to just a few players, but CoreAAC should work pretty well for that too"
- it will be available for free for normal users (no adware)
- although ND is mpeg-4 advanced simple profile and offers GMC and QPel, the developers recommend not to use it in ND :devil: )
- nero vision express will be ahead's tool to work with mp4 files (cut, join, etc...)
- they already work on reference design for standalone players

[Lefungus]

Note that it has only been compared to divx yet, not xvid

[The Edge]

Interesting.........


Edge

[jollytim]

A quick Google search resulted in this.....

http://www.nerodigital.com/

From the sounds of it, it will be available soon. We'll see....

[kl33per]

If this is the case, ND won't cut it.

Firstly, the MP4 container has problems, and unless you can convert it to another container somehow (I guess it's possible), people won't be using the codec. Also, if GMC and QPel aren't optimised, that's a major let down.

Edit: NeroDigital.com has been the official website for some time, however, it has not been updated in months.

[bond]

Originally posted by kl33per
the MP4 container has problemswhat for example?

[temporance]

Originally posted by bond
what for example? Lack of software support is really the only one. Oh and definitions for some audio formats like AC-3 are lacking.

[kl33per]

For example, currently all players that can play MP4 files have syncing problems with A/V (in MP4 files, not in other containers) and there is no specs for implementing subtitles.

[temporance]

This is going to be interesting. I wonder how they have compared performance with DivX? PSNR? It would be nice to see a comparison with xvid and *V9 too. Any more tidbits, bond? Let me guess: you're really a Nero developer in disguise!

For me, Qpel and GMC are not important anyway - these are really a distraction to getting best performance at low bitrates.

I can't wait to give this codec a try. Come on Nero guys, we'll find bugs with it anyway - don't bother trying to find then now, just let us have it!! :)

Oh, and on mp4 I almost forgot: mp4 file format is not yet ready for use with embedded devices, Nero would have to design their own sub-spec of mp4.

[bond]

Originally posted by temporance
Any more tidbits, bond?not at the moment

Let me guess: you're really a Nero developer in disguise!muhahaha

no, i am just the stupid guy who spreads the news, helping ahead keeping their marketing costs low, without seeing any single cent for it myself...

[unmei]

"xvid compatible", "2 pass VBR", "DS filter", "free for normal user", "independent of burning ROM" -- meow, i'm getting excited :D

[temporance]

Let's hope this isn't another codec "influenced" by xvid (remember the Sigma Designs episode?) Or at least, if it is, that they release the source as the GPL requires.

[Nic]

@temporance:
It won't be a copy, I remember Ivan's early efforts with MPEG-4 video and it was quite impressive for back then (think it was back in the DivX 4 era, I've got the demo encoder somewhere, ill dig it out)...and completely different to any other encoder.

(Although I have a (cynical) feeling this won't be mind blowing quality...first releases rarely are. But I'm sure they'll keep update it often)

as for mp4, im sure it won't be a problem to take the mp4 and put it into mkv. ;)

-Nic

[temporance]

Do you mean Ivan Dimkovic? Seems he's an audio guru (although of course this doesn't mean he can't turn his hand to video).

I have the same feeling about quality. And I also have the feeling that the release will be plagued with bugs (however much they test it, they can't try all permutations of input and configuration).

From their website:
Psycho-visual distortion control model, highest possible PSNR - Sophisticated masking and noise estimation model is included in Nero Digital . for each frame it computes what parts of an image are significant for a viewer and allocates bits accordingly. This model is also responsible for the highest possible quality on variable bit rate (VBR) streams. This is the most interesting part for me. It seems to be contradictary. Highest possible PSNR and psychovisual control model are, in my experience, two mutually exclusive things. A good PV model does things that murder the PSNR figure. Maybe there are two different modes.

For me, the most exciting thing is the AAC codec. We're getting to the stage now where at low audio bitrate is becoming increasingly important.

[Nic]

Yup I mean mr. Dimkovic and he was very much getting into MPEG-4 video too towards the end of Psytel. Although I don't actually know if he has played a major part in the MPEG-4 Video side of ND. I just assume he has :) (it would be silly for him not too, with he's talents :) )

-Nic

[CruNcher]

I heared most part in Development on the Video side was done by Ateme afaik its also rumored that they made a 2pass in 1 pass mode :D
btw Nic when we can expect dvd2avi_nic with the resize fix and Donalds Decoder fix ? :D

[bond]

and when will we see the new ogm filter :D

[Nic]

OT:
Sorry guys, things have been mad at work recently...and the rest of the time I've spent shamelessly making my way through most of my best mates female friends...

It's fun and busy, but I literally haven't turned on my home computer in a month or so (and I'm still at work now (18:21pm)).

-Nic

[bond]

:eek: :devil: :D

edit: holy shit! it seems that there is a new version of oggds out: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61578

[superdump]

Ivan has gone a lot of work on the ND codec from what I've heard from Menno and others. I've asked Ivan how many warppoints the GMC implementation uses. Also, they only don't recommend that you don't use GMC and QPel because they don't provide any quality increase. I, unlike Nic, had high expectations of this codec. But from mine and CruNcher's tests XviD dev-api-4 beats DivX pro using slowest mode. We'll see what happens. No doubt CruNcher will prepare some results for us rather rapidly after the release of the ND codec.

[SeeMoreDigital]

The idea of have an Mp4 application like Nero Digital has been a long time comming in my opinion!

At work we recently gave Sorenson Squeeze 3.5 a go. This was very easy to use and gave you the ability to save your encodes to a variety of formats, including 2pass VBR .mp4.

The GUI was 'great'. The encodes were 'good'. But the cost of the software was 'on another planet'.

So I'm really looking forward to Nero's release!

Cheers

[ThePanda]

Nero Digital sounds great, I can't wait for it! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Tuning]

I think if it is faster and better than divx or Xvid GK must also provide the use of it .(If it seems the better one) :devil:

[Doom9]

GK must also provide the use of it I would leave it up to the lead programmer to decide what features his program offers and which it does not. It can be very decouraging as a programmer if you have people telling you how to do your job, even though they might not have an idea how to do it on their own.

[superdump]

Also, gknot uses vfw codecs only so far as it uses vdubmod and from what I know, ND are only going to release the codec in directshow form.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by kl33per
For example, currently all players that can play MP4 files have syncing problems with A/V (in MP4 files, not in other containers) and there is no specs for implementing subtitles. At least 3ivx mp4 splitter will fix syncing problems in their next release (http://forums.3ivx.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=11&topic=205), and I don't think ND's splitter will have these problems.

[CruNcher]

i expierence strange problems with Neros new DVD decoder filter wich is obvously also a mpeg4 decoder hehe it renders a 576x312 video and resizes it to 590x320 because of that a line on the bottom is appearing like a VHS line :P kinda strange behavior could be a mod problem ? but the good news this is the only problem i expierenced for now the rest of Devapi4 Decoding is flawless :)

[bond]

for people interested in ND there are some more interesting infos to read available on the hydrogenaudio wiki (JohnV's travel report from the "International Broadcasting Convention 2003" in Amsterdam):

look here (http://doc.hydrogenaudio.org/Members/JohnV/IBC%202003/IBC2003/view) :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Wow, thanks for providing the link bond.

Faster encoding that DivX 5.1!
Better looking encodes at 900kbps than DivX 5.1!
6Ch AAC+ audio!
Mp4 container!

Possible availability, beginning of October... I'm hooked already!

Cheers

[temporance]

Nero Digital delayed, licensing problems with Dolby / VIA rumored (http://www.cd-rw.org/news/archive/4520.cfm)

IMHO, HE-AAC is the most attractive part of Nero Digital. Does anyone know of a free/open source encoder implementation of this standard?

[bond]

Originally posted by temporance
HE-AAC is the most attractive part of Nero Digital. Does anyone know of a free/open source encoder implementation of this standard?no, there is non (nero is the only one atm)

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by temporance
Nero Digital delayed, licensing problems with Dolby / VIA rumored (http://www.cd-rw.org/news/archive/4520.cfm)

but it will be released...

http://www.cd-rw.org/news/archive/4525.cfm

[Animaniac]

The new versions of NeroDigital's DSF (6.0.0.19) disable functionality with 3ivx's MP4 media splitter. After unregistering NDParser.ax, 3ivx is able to parse MP4 files correctly. This doesn't look like a simple merit override either, since the 3ivx filter cannot connect with an MP4 file while NDParser.ax is registered. I hope this wasn't an intentional circumvention of the 3ivx filter...

Edit: Shitowax, if you see this message, for some reason I cannot generate explorer thumbnails with the MP4 splitter (after adding the proper registry keys) unless the 3ivx Video filter is installed (even if use unsupported filters is enabled).

[Stux]

Originally posted by Animaniac
Edit: Shitowax, if you see this message, for some reason I cannot generate explorer thumbnails with the MP4 splitter (after adding the proper registry keys) unless the 3ivx Video filter is installed (even if use unsupported filters is enabled).

The 3ivx splitter requires functionality from the 3ivx decoder to do its job and will not work if the decoder is not registered

[Animaniac]

Originally posted by Stux
The 3ivx splitter requires functionality from the 3ivx decoder to do its job and will not work if the decoder is not registered

But normal playback works via ffdshow and CoreAAC...

[Stux]

Originally posted by Animaniac
But normal playback works via ffdshow and CoreAAC...

Ahuh,

BUT the 3ivx splitter requires functionality from the 3ivx decoder to work correctly, even if the 3ivx decoder is not being used to decode.

[shitowax]

The 3ivx 404 package has got some problems with IMediaDet and Explorer's preview (should be fixed in the next version). Anyway, the 3ivx splitter will never work correctly if the decoder isn't registered. Concerning Nero's package overwriting 3ivx to play MPEG-4, this is due to directshow and the way source filters register extensions ... Only one filter can be registered for an extension, that way, the latest software installed will always be used. This is valid for 3ivx, Envivio, Dicas and Nero as well it seems.

Originally posted by Animaniac
The new versions of NeroDigital's DSF (6.0.0.19) disable functionality with 3ivx's MP4 media splitter. After unregistering NDParser.ax, 3ivx is able to parse MP4 files correctly. This doesn't look like a simple merit override either, since the 3ivx filter cannot connect with an MP4 file while NDParser.ax is registered. I hope this wasn't an intentional circumvention of the 3ivx filter...

Edit: Shitowax, if you see this message, for some reason I cannot generate explorer thumbnails with the MP4 splitter (after adding the proper registry keys) unless the 3ivx Video filter is installed (even if use unsupported filters is enabled).

[bond]

Some more news about Nero Digital:

- No, i won't say anything anymore about when it will be released :p
- ND is said to be "not worse than DivX or Xvid" (of course only heavy testing can show if that really is the case ;) )
- ND will be released first included in Nero Recode (which will be the main tool for ND), when or if a vfw or directshow codec will follow isnt that sure
- Recode will only accept unencrypted dvds/vobs (with ifo) as input (no avi or avs!)
- ffdshow can be used to decode ND
- ND doesnt support the seperate encoding of credits
- subtitles will be stored as attachements in the mp4 container (like any other file can be attached in mp4) and not as 2D bifs scene
- ND supports more than 1 b-frames
- ND stores b-frames directly, but also has a compatibility mode that generates packed b-frames like DivX
- for the ME, it uses some zonal/predictive algorithms; there will be 5 ME levels (called quality levels)
- ND's GMC is said to have 3 warppoints
- ND supports to change the quanticer matrices (although it is not sure that the final version will include that feature)
- ND doesnt use trellis
- for the standalones: ND supports several chips, but their main target is TI C64x/DM64x family

[superdump]

NeroVision Express does however accept VOB/AVI input, but I tried to open an AVS script with it and it wouldn't do it. NVE will have an ND output plugin, so we could go via some lossless avi I guess.

The alternative is to use the directshow encoder and graphedit, though as bond stated, it is not known whether the directshow codec will be released simultaneously as the new version of Recode.

The dev we were talking to suggested that the ND codec should be released within the next two weeks via a new version of Recode.

Let us hope that is true!

[superdump]

I think ND is going to be released very soon/has been released.

I just downloaded the latest version of Nero Package 2 and when you start it up it pops up that expiry screen and in the list of features is an ND plugin. However, NVE won't open VOBs unless you have a separate DVD MPEG-2 decoder plugin due to licensing issues or something.

Anyway, have a look yourselves. :)

PS - I can't find the ND Video encoder plugin anywhere though. Maybe I'm just too ill to see it. Have fun!

[Tuning]

Is the time reached?
Many days passed no other info on ND.Do any one have?

[Saiya-Jin]

Last month, I e-mailed Ahead about this, and they said that either at the end of October or beginning of November they would be releasing Nero Recode featuring the Nero Digital codec. Apparently they forgot about it since we are in mid-November already. I also asked if the new Nero Recode will feature the conversion of menus into MPEG-4 compliant, but they didn't say anything about it... Figures.

[superdump]

The final release date of the codecs as a plugin for nero recode is known by the internal developers and affiliates but not to the general public. We can only hope that it's going to be soon but I for one am getting impatient.

[JohnV]

It might be sooner than you expect at this point. ;)
Menno said very funnily at #foobar2000: "after monday". Well, after monday can mean pretty much anything, but hold on to your hats still, it's gonna be out in any case soon. ;)

I'm not saying anything, but IF it happened that ND is released on Monday, it would take quite a lot of publicity away from the 3ivx release due to be released on Tuesday.. ;)

[superdump]

It certainly would. But from my playing about with 3ivX it isn't really up to much... it's fast though. So for constant quant capturing I guess it isn't too bad. The two-pass mode will be welcome to play with. I don't know how much else Shitowax and Co have done on the actual codec but the MP4 DS filters will certainly be welcome by all.

Anyway, fingers crossed for a launch ASAP and access to both the audio and video encoding filters via graphedit. :)

[Angelus]

I was just going to download an update for my Nero 6 and I ran across A press release about Nero Recode 2 and Nero Digital here:
http://www.nero.com/us/632028719687858.html

They said it would be available in December 2003.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Angelus
I was just going to download an update for my Nero 6 and I ran across A press release about Nero Recode 2 and Nero Digital here:
http://www.nero.com/us/632028719687858.html

They said it would be available in December 2003. This is great news indeed. Although I would have hoped that it would have worked totally independently from Nero6 and not as an add on!

[bond]

well seems that ahead doesnt want to make it available for free anymore :(

"Advanced settings for power users"
at least they didnt forget about us :D and dont just aim on serving total "drdivx" newbies (hm, although Recode will not support AVI input, which means that avisynth filtering isnt possible :mad: )

[SeeMoreDigital]

No luck for DV.avi camcorder users either then. How dumb is that?

Cheers

[ThePanda]

Will Nero Digital be able to preserve the menus in the movie, so I can just put in the CD and play it like the dvd?