Nero Digital info thread

[bond]

from my insider connections :D i got the following informations about Nero Digital:

- ND will be released within a month (it's almost finished)
- it is claimed to be better and faster than most of the current mpeg-4 implementations (only DivX at the very slowest mode is better, but ND is a lot faster)
- ND will be available independently from nero burning rom (including he-aac encoding)
- ND will output .mp4 only (Nero Recode will have a direct export to MP4 option)
- because of licensing issues ahead "may need to restrict the directshow filter to just a few players, but CoreAAC should work pretty well for that too"
- it will be available for free for normal users (no adware)
- although ND is mpeg-4 advanced simple profile and offers GMC and QPel, the developers recommend not to use it in ND :devil: )
- nero vision express will be ahead's tool to work with mp4 files (cut, join, etc...)
- they already work on reference design for standalone players

[Lefungus]

Note that it has only been compared to divx yet, not xvid

[The Edge]

Interesting.........


Edge

[jollytim]

A quick Google search resulted in this.....

http://www.nerodigital.com/

From the sounds of it, it will be available soon. We'll see....

[kl33per]

If this is the case, ND won't cut it.

Firstly, the MP4 container has problems, and unless you can convert it to another container somehow (I guess it's possible), people won't be using the codec. Also, if GMC and QPel aren't optimised, that's a major let down.

Edit: NeroDigital.com has been the official website for some time, however, it has not been updated in months.

[bond]

Originally posted by kl33per
the MP4 container has problemswhat for example?

[temporance]

Originally posted by bond
what for example? Lack of software support is really the only one. Oh and definitions for some audio formats like AC-3 are lacking.

[kl33per]

For example, currently all players that can play MP4 files have syncing problems with A/V (in MP4 files, not in other containers) and there is no specs for implementing subtitles.

[temporance]

This is going to be interesting. I wonder how they have compared performance with DivX? PSNR? It would be nice to see a comparison with xvid and *V9 too. Any more tidbits, bond? Let me guess: you're really a Nero developer in disguise!

For me, Qpel and GMC are not important anyway - these are really a distraction to getting best performance at low bitrates.

I can't wait to give this codec a try. Come on Nero guys, we'll find bugs with it anyway - don't bother trying to find then now, just let us have it!! :)

Oh, and on mp4 I almost forgot: mp4 file format is not yet ready for use with embedded devices, Nero would have to design their own sub-spec of mp4.

[bond]

Originally posted by temporance
Any more tidbits, bond?not at the moment

Let me guess: you're really a Nero developer in disguise!muhahaha

no, i am just the stupid guy who spreads the news, helping ahead keeping their marketing costs low, without seeing any single cent for it myself...

[unmei]

"xvid compatible", "2 pass VBR", "DS filter", "free for normal user", "independent of burning ROM" -- meow, i'm getting excited :D

[temporance]

Let's hope this isn't another codec "influenced" by xvid (remember the Sigma Designs episode?) Or at least, if it is, that they release the source as the GPL requires.

[Nic]

@temporance:
It won't be a copy, I remember Ivan's early efforts with MPEG-4 video and it was quite impressive for back then (think it was back in the DivX 4 era, I've got the demo encoder somewhere, ill dig it out)...and completely different to any other encoder.

(Although I have a (cynical) feeling this won't be mind blowing quality...first releases rarely are. But I'm sure they'll keep update it often)

as for mp4, im sure it won't be a problem to take the mp4 and put it into mkv. ;)

-Nic

[temporance]

Do you mean Ivan Dimkovic? Seems he's an audio guru (although of course this doesn't mean he can't turn his hand to video).

I have the same feeling about quality. And I also have the feeling that the release will be plagued with bugs (however much they test it, they can't try all permutations of input and configuration).

From their website:
Psycho-visual distortion control model, highest possible PSNR - Sophisticated masking and noise estimation model is included in Nero Digital . for each frame it computes what parts of an image are significant for a viewer and allocates bits accordingly. This model is also responsible for the highest possible quality on variable bit rate (VBR) streams. This is the most interesting part for me. It seems to be contradictary. Highest possible PSNR and psychovisual control model are, in my experience, two mutually exclusive things. A good PV model does things that murder the PSNR figure. Maybe there are two different modes.

For me, the most exciting thing is the AAC codec. We're getting to the stage now where at low audio bitrate is becoming increasingly important.

[Nic]

Yup I mean mr. Dimkovic and he was very much getting into MPEG-4 video too towards the end of Psytel. Although I don't actually know if he has played a major part in the MPEG-4 Video side of ND. I just assume he has :) (it would be silly for him not too, with he's talents :) )

-Nic

[CruNcher]

I heared most part in Development on the Video side was done by Ateme afaik its also rumored that they made a 2pass in 1 pass mode :D
btw Nic when we can expect dvd2avi_nic with the resize fix and Donalds Decoder fix ? :D

[bond]

and when will we see the new ogm filter :D

[Nic]

OT:
Sorry guys, things have been mad at work recently...and the rest of the time I've spent shamelessly making my way through most of my best mates female friends...

It's fun and busy, but I literally haven't turned on my home computer in a month or so (and I'm still at work now (18:21pm)).

-Nic

[bond]

:eek: :devil: :D

edit: holy shit! it seems that there is a new version of oggds out: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61578

[superdump]

Ivan has gone a lot of work on the ND codec from what I've heard from Menno and others. I've asked Ivan how many warppoints the GMC implementation uses. Also, they only don't recommend that you don't use GMC and QPel because they don't provide any quality increase. I, unlike Nic, had high expectations of this codec. But from mine and CruNcher's tests XviD dev-api-4 beats DivX pro using slowest mode. We'll see what happens. No doubt CruNcher will prepare some results for us rather rapidly after the release of the ND codec.

[SeeMoreDigital]

The idea of have an Mp4 application like Nero Digital has been a long time comming in my opinion!

At work we recently gave Sorenson Squeeze 3.5 a go. This was very easy to use and gave you the ability to save your encodes to a variety of formats, including 2pass VBR .mp4.

The GUI was 'great'. The encodes were 'good'. But the cost of the software was 'on another planet'.

So I'm really looking forward to Nero's release!

Cheers

[ThePanda]

Nero Digital sounds great, I can't wait for it! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Tuning]

I think if it is faster and better than divx or Xvid GK must also provide the use of it .(If it seems the better one) :devil:

[Doom9]

GK must also provide the use of it I would leave it up to the lead programmer to decide what features his program offers and which it does not. It can be very decouraging as a programmer if you have people telling you how to do your job, even though they might not have an idea how to do it on their own.

[superdump]

Also, gknot uses vfw codecs only so far as it uses vdubmod and from what I know, ND are only going to release the codec in directshow form.

[JohnV]

Originally posted by kl33per
For example, currently all players that can play MP4 files have syncing problems with A/V (in MP4 files, not in other containers) and there is no specs for implementing subtitles. At least 3ivx mp4 splitter will fix syncing problems in their next release (http://forums.3ivx.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=11&topic=205), and I don't think ND's splitter will have these problems.

[CruNcher]

i expierence strange problems with Neros new DVD decoder filter wich is obvously also a mpeg4 decoder hehe it renders a 576x312 video and resizes it to 590x320 because of that a line on the bottom is appearing like a VHS line :P kinda strange behavior could be a mod problem ? but the good news this is the only problem i expierenced for now the rest of Devapi4 Decoding is flawless :)

[bond]

for people interested in ND there are some more interesting infos to read available on the hydrogenaudio wiki (JohnV's travel report from the "International Broadcasting Convention 2003" in Amsterdam):

look here (http://doc.hydrogenaudio.org/Members/JohnV/IBC%202003/IBC2003/view) :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Wow, thanks for providing the link bond.

Faster encoding that DivX 5.1!
Better looking encodes at 900kbps than DivX 5.1!
6Ch AAC+ audio!
Mp4 container!

Possible availability, beginning of October... I'm hooked already!

Cheers

[temporance]

Nero Digital delayed, licensing problems with Dolby / VIA rumored (http://www.cd-rw.org/news/archive/4520.cfm)

IMHO, HE-AAC is the most attractive part of Nero Digital. Does anyone know of a free/open source encoder implementation of this standard?

[bond]

Originally posted by temporance
HE-AAC is the most attractive part of Nero Digital. Does anyone know of a free/open source encoder implementation of this standard?no, there is non (nero is the only one atm)

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by temporance
Nero Digital delayed, licensing problems with Dolby / VIA rumored (http://www.cd-rw.org/news/archive/4520.cfm)

but it will be released...

http://www.cd-rw.org/news/archive/4525.cfm

[Animaniac]

The new versions of NeroDigital's DSF (6.0.0.19) disable functionality with 3ivx's MP4 media splitter. After unregistering NDParser.ax, 3ivx is able to parse MP4 files correctly. This doesn't look like a simple merit override either, since the 3ivx filter cannot connect with an MP4 file while NDParser.ax is registered. I hope this wasn't an intentional circumvention of the 3ivx filter...

Edit: Shitowax, if you see this message, for some reason I cannot generate explorer thumbnails with the MP4 splitter (after adding the proper registry keys) unless the 3ivx Video filter is installed (even if use unsupported filters is enabled).

[Stux]

Originally posted by Animaniac
Edit: Shitowax, if you see this message, for some reason I cannot generate explorer thumbnails with the MP4 splitter (after adding the proper registry keys) unless the 3ivx Video filter is installed (even if use unsupported filters is enabled).

The 3ivx splitter requires functionality from the 3ivx decoder to do its job and will not work if the decoder is not registered

[Animaniac]

Originally posted by Stux
The 3ivx splitter requires functionality from the 3ivx decoder to do its job and will not work if the decoder is not registered

But normal playback works via ffdshow and CoreAAC...

[Stux]

Originally posted by Animaniac
But normal playback works via ffdshow and CoreAAC...

Ahuh,

BUT the 3ivx splitter requires functionality from the 3ivx decoder to work correctly, even if the 3ivx decoder is not being used to decode.

[shitowax]

The 3ivx 404 package has got some problems with IMediaDet and Explorer's preview (should be fixed in the next version). Anyway, the 3ivx splitter will never work correctly if the decoder isn't registered. Concerning Nero's package overwriting 3ivx to play MPEG-4, this is due to directshow and the way source filters register extensions ... Only one filter can be registered for an extension, that way, the latest software installed will always be used. This is valid for 3ivx, Envivio, Dicas and Nero as well it seems.

Originally posted by Animaniac
The new versions of NeroDigital's DSF (6.0.0.19) disable functionality with 3ivx's MP4 media splitter. After unregistering NDParser.ax, 3ivx is able to parse MP4 files correctly. This doesn't look like a simple merit override either, since the 3ivx filter cannot connect with an MP4 file while NDParser.ax is registered. I hope this wasn't an intentional circumvention of the 3ivx filter...

Edit: Shitowax, if you see this message, for some reason I cannot generate explorer thumbnails with the MP4 splitter (after adding the proper registry keys) unless the 3ivx Video filter is installed (even if use unsupported filters is enabled).

[bond]

Some more news about Nero Digital:

- No, i won't say anything anymore about when it will be released :p
- ND is said to be "not worse than DivX or Xvid" (of course only heavy testing can show if that really is the case ;) )
- ND will be released first included in Nero Recode (which will be the main tool for ND), when or if a vfw or directshow codec will follow isnt that sure
- Recode will only accept unencrypted dvds/vobs (with ifo) as input (no avi or avs!)
- ffdshow can be used to decode ND
- ND doesnt support the seperate encoding of credits
- subtitles will be stored as attachements in the mp4 container (like any other file can be attached in mp4) and not as 2D bifs scene
- ND supports more than 1 b-frames
- ND stores b-frames directly, but also has a compatibility mode that generates packed b-frames like DivX
- for the ME, it uses some zonal/predictive algorithms; there will be 5 ME levels (called quality levels)
- ND's GMC is said to have 3 warppoints
- ND supports to change the quanticer matrices (although it is not sure that the final version will include that feature)
- ND doesnt use trellis
- for the standalones: ND supports several chips, but their main target is TI C64x/DM64x family

[superdump]

NeroVision Express does however accept VOB/AVI input, but I tried to open an AVS script with it and it wouldn't do it. NVE will have an ND output plugin, so we could go via some lossless avi I guess.

The alternative is to use the directshow encoder and graphedit, though as bond stated, it is not known whether the directshow codec will be released simultaneously as the new version of Recode.

The dev we were talking to suggested that the ND codec should be released within the next two weeks via a new version of Recode.

Let us hope that is true!

[superdump]

I think ND is going to be released very soon/has been released.

I just downloaded the latest version of Nero Package 2 and when you start it up it pops up that expiry screen and in the list of features is an ND plugin. However, NVE won't open VOBs unless you have a separate DVD MPEG-2 decoder plugin due to licensing issues or something.

Anyway, have a look yourselves. :)

PS - I can't find the ND Video encoder plugin anywhere though. Maybe I'm just too ill to see it. Have fun!

[Tuning]

Is the time reached?
Many days passed no other info on ND.Do any one have?

[Saiya-Jin]

Last month, I e-mailed Ahead about this, and they said that either at the end of October or beginning of November they would be releasing Nero Recode featuring the Nero Digital codec. Apparently they forgot about it since we are in mid-November already. I also asked if the new Nero Recode will feature the conversion of menus into MPEG-4 compliant, but they didn't say anything about it... Figures.

[superdump]

The final release date of the codecs as a plugin for nero recode is known by the internal developers and affiliates but not to the general public. We can only hope that it's going to be soon but I for one am getting impatient.

[JohnV]

It might be sooner than you expect at this point. ;)
Menno said very funnily at #foobar2000: "after monday". Well, after monday can mean pretty much anything, but hold on to your hats still, it's gonna be out in any case soon. ;)

I'm not saying anything, but IF it happened that ND is released on Monday, it would take quite a lot of publicity away from the 3ivx release due to be released on Tuesday.. ;)

[superdump]

It certainly would. But from my playing about with 3ivX it isn't really up to much... it's fast though. So for constant quant capturing I guess it isn't too bad. The two-pass mode will be welcome to play with. I don't know how much else Shitowax and Co have done on the actual codec but the MP4 DS filters will certainly be welcome by all.

Anyway, fingers crossed for a launch ASAP and access to both the audio and video encoding filters via graphedit. :)

[Angelus]

I was just going to download an update for my Nero 6 and I ran across A press release about Nero Recode 2 and Nero Digital here:
http://www.nero.com/us/632028719687858.html

They said it would be available in December 2003.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Angelus
I was just going to download an update for my Nero 6 and I ran across A press release about Nero Recode 2 and Nero Digital here:
http://www.nero.com/us/632028719687858.html

They said it would be available in December 2003. This is great news indeed. Although I would have hoped that it would have worked totally independently from Nero6 and not as an add on!

[bond]

well seems that ahead doesnt want to make it available for free anymore :(

"Advanced settings for power users"
at least they didnt forget about us :D and dont just aim on serving total "drdivx" newbies (hm, although Recode will not support AVI input, which means that avisynth filtering isnt possible :mad: )

[SeeMoreDigital]

No luck for DV.avi camcorder users either then. How dumb is that?

Cheers

[ThePanda]

Will Nero Digital be able to preserve the menus in the movie, so I can just put in the CD and play it like the dvd?

[bond]

Originally posted by ThePanda
Will Nero Digital be able to preserve the menus in the movie, so I can just put in the CD and play it like the dvd?no, this is not planned for nd in the beginning, but there is something else coming which will let you do this soon, be patient :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bond
no, this is not planned for nd in the beginning, but there is something else coming which will let you do this soon, be patient :) Just a simple menu, like the ones you can create for use with VCD's or S-VCD's would be nice start!

Cheers

[RadicalEd]

You can do way more than just that with XMT ;)

[bond]

some news about how nero digital will store subtitles in mp4:
they will just attach the original dvd vobsubs in mp4 (no srt support or so)

also interesting concerning mp4 subs is that there are plans to include the TX3G text stream format (from 3gp) into the mp4 specs as native sub format...

[bond]

some rumours came to my nose lately

ahead/ateme is preparing a new release of their mpeg-4 codec, which should bring more quality than the first release (seems they are very ambitious to enter the mpeg-4 market)
also new features can be expected on the encoder side, like being able to add error correction (not only detection!) to the streams (good for XCD, read more here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65646))
also recode2 is said to allow .avs input now

[nimbles]

Hey guys i've read a few reviews on NeroDigital codec and was thinking about backing up one of my simpsons dvd's to mp4's but was wondering whether it is at all possible to play Nero digital MP4's in a non nero showtime player-

I have one pc with Nero installed as it has a cd-rw/dvd-rw installed but a couple of the pc's in the house don't have a cd/dvd writer so i see no reason to pay for and install a licensed copy of nero just for the player- i guess it wouldn't play in any of those standalone divx/xvid players either :(

edit : ok found this having re read the thread
- ffdshow can be used to decode ND
Do i need the latest ffdshow (err... 05-04-04 build) for this to work?


If not thats ok, I may just have to go the xvid route but was curious to do some testing

[bond]

Originally posted by nimbles
Hey guys i've read a few reviews on NeroDigital codec and was thinking about backing up one of my simpsons dvd's to mp4's but was wondering whether it is at all possible to play Nero digital MP4's in a non nero showtime player- :search: :readfaq:
of course its possible to play mp4 files also with other player

.mp4 is the file format of the mpeg-4 standard, so there are lots of player which support it already
the most popular one is maybe quicktime, the best one is imo 3ivx, which allows you to play mp4 files in any dshow based player, like wmp9, bsplayer, mpc aso...

[nimbles]

sorry, i was under the impression that there may have been issues with the playback of the video without the NeroDigital codec installed- which i assumed would only be present if Nero Recode 2 and hence the Nero retail edition was installed on a pc.

Thanks for tip about 3ivx bond (some of the pc's at home are OLD-PII 333MHz/64mb ram/onboard GFX- will they cope?), I'm off to read all these mp4 faq's :scared:

[bond]

Originally posted by nimbles
sorry, i was under the impression that there may have been issues with the playback of the video without the NeroDigital codec installed- which i assumed would only be present if Nero Recode 2 and hence the Nero retail edition was installed on a pc.not at all

some of the pc's at home are OLD-PII 333MHz/64mb ram/onboard GFX- will they copehm, mp4 doesnt need more cpu power than other formats
also you can try to use the ffdshow decoder together with 3ivx, as it needs the least cpu power of all decoders afaik

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by nimbles
...some of the pc's at home are OLD-PII 333MHz/64mb ram/onboard GFX- will they cope?, I'm off to read all these mp4 faq's :scared: Not very well, I'm affraid!

But you may have more luck with encodes that have a small image pixel frame size.

Cheers

[opsis81]

@nimbles
NeroDigital subtitles are only recognized by ShowTime Player.If you want them you are limited to ShowTime Player.

[LostMP4]

I have some questions: (Nero Recode 2, June 2004 update)

Q1. Audio is compressed in constant bitrate or average bitrate - constant quality?

Q2. Will Recode ever allow muxing multiple Audio or Subtitle tracks in the same file?

Q3. Any chance to have some different subtitle format compatible with ND?

Q4. Will be PAR supported in encodes (and decodes by ShowTime)?

Q4-OT. Shouldn't the X-axis be resized by PAR? 3ivx filters resize the Y-axis?

Q5. Saving project files... why not?

Q6. Why to limit ND diffusion by allowing to create only backups of unprotected DVDs and not of personal media files?

Q7. Is Audio delay "corrected" during Encoding or "stored" in MP4 (I don't know if it's possible)?

[SeeMoreDigital]

With regard to question 4, I think there's certainly something wrong with Recode2, when you try and generate 720x480/576 anamorphic encodes, ie: with no cropping and no resizing!

I've generated tests from DVD's where the movie has an AR of 1.77:1 or 1.85:1 and they playback at the correct AR. But encodes from movies with an AR of 2.35:1 or 2.40:1 are very wrong.

It doesn't help too that all versions of Nero's NeVideo.ax after version 1.1.7.35 dont handle anamorphic Mpeg4 video correctly either.


Cheers

[LostMP4]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
With regard to question 4, I think there's certainly something wrong with Recode2, when you try and generate 720x480/576 anamorphic encodes, ie: with no cropping and no resizing!

I've generated tests from DVD's where the movie has an AR of 1.77:1 or 1.85:1 and they playback at the correct AR. But encodes from movies with an AR of 2.35:1 or 2.40:1 are very wrong.

It doesn't help too that all versions of Nero's NeVideo.ax after version 1.1.7.35 dont handle anamorphic Mpeg4 video correctly either.


Cheers

A bug or a Nero Digital Specs "redefinition"?

[JohnV]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
With regard to question 4, I think there's certainly something wrong with Recode2, when you try and generate 720x480/576 anamorphic encodes, ie: with no cropping and no resizing!

I've generated tests from DVD's where the movie has an AR of 1.77:1 or 1.85:1 and they playback at the correct AR. But encodes from movies with an AR of 2.35:1 or 2.40:1 are very wrong.

It doesn't help too that all versions of Nero's NeVideo.ax after version 1.1.7.35 dont handle anamorphic Mpeg4 video correctly either.


Cheers
It's not Recode2 problem or ND specs problem. Funny thing is that the latest 3ivx dev build decoder/splitter displays the Recode2 2.40:1 anamorphic encode aspect ratio correctly (ShowTime shows it incorrectly), so it's a bug in the ND decoder filter.
I informed Bobololo about this, so I think we will see a fix for this quite soon..

Edit. Well, the original video aspect ratio of my test encode was 2.4:1, but Recode2 seemed to encode with AR 2.5:1. So even the encode is slightly off. The biggest problem still is the ND decoder filter which doesn't use(?) the AR figure giving weird playback. Latest devbuild 3ivx filter plays it with AR 2.5:1 which is close but not quite the original.
Anyway, it's also possible to change the AR in the MP4 stream afterwards, and I believe for example 3ivx has this feature already implemented.
I suggested to bobololo that ND devs would allow also manual setting of AR (for advanced users) which is available in the ND DS encoder filter but disabled in the Recode2 application..

[LostMP4]

Originally posted by JohnV
I suggested to bobololo that ND devs would allow also manual setting of AR (for advanced users) which is available in the ND DS encoder filter but disabled in the Recode2 application..

It would be very useful

About the other questions? Any clues?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by JohnV
It's not Recode2 problem or ND specs problem. Funny thing is that the latest 3ivx dev build decoder/splitter displays the Recode2 2.40:1 anamorphic encode aspect ratio correctly (ShowTime shows it incorrectly), so it's a bug in the ND decoder filter.
I informed Bobololo about this, so I think we will see a fix for this quite soon..I disagree. And the main reason why I'm able to do this is because unlike some of you guys, I'm able to play these encodes via hardware and watch them on a 16:9 TV.

To show you what I mean I've generated some MP4 Anamorphic Test Clips (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/MP4_(2.35.1)_Anamorphic_Test_Clips.zip) using Recode2, XviD and 3ivX, all from the same PAL 720x576, 2.35:1 anamorphic source.

When playang back the encodes in hardware, I've found XviD to be spot on, 3ivX is just a very, very, tiny bit low but Recode2 to be way out!

When playing back the encodes in software the only way I've managed to get Nero's Showtime player to behave properly is by replacing the Nevideo.ax filter with this older version (http://82.2.167.24/Uploaded_Files/Doom9_Forum_files/Nero_DSFilter_Fix.zip).

Also when forcing the encodes to play via WinMedia player9 (and using 3ivX's filter) the XviD and 3ivX encodes playback as they sould but the Recode2 encode is way off!

But please give the encodes a go yourselves and report back?


Cheers

EDIT: link changed

[JohnV]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
[B]I disagree. And the main reason why I'm able to do this is because unlike some of you guys, I'm able to play these encodes via hardware and watch them on a 16:9 TV. Eeh, but I didn't say I disagree with you.. :rolleyes:
Like I said there are currently 2 issues with ND regarding this AR stuff:
1. Biggest problem is that ND decoder filter doesn't seem to take PAR/DAR into account currently much at all, or it is very wrong.
2. For example the latest dev build 3ivx (3ivx_d4_452fc1) does playback the AR which is defined in the ND stream quite correctly as far as I can see. Slight problem is that for example for a 2.40:1 DVD, the automatic aspect ratio Recode seemed to be 2:50:1 (5:2) in this case. But this is still much closer to the correct aspect ratio than what ShowTime currently produces. I check this by putting WinDVD and the MPEG4 video "on top of each others", so it's easy to see any difference in AR.
Also if you don't have access to the latest 3ivx stuff, it's a bit useless to compare experiences here. But I don't disagree with you in anyway, I agree that this anamorphic encoding AR is an issue which should work in all codecs and currently it doesnt.

[SeeMoreDigital]

My apologies then JohnV,

I agree that there does appear to be a problem with Nero's Nevideo.ax filter (which is why I use the much older filter).

But it's got to be their encoder filter that cocks up the encode in the first place. And no amount of fiddling by 3ivX to correct this during decoding is going to correct this, nor should it!

Unless of course Nero is not storing the anamorphic signalling in the bit-steam, just in the container. In which case I would have thought you would not see any 'horizontal' stretching at all. The problem lies in the vertical axis.

Strange that Nero does not have the same problems when encoding from a PAL 720x576 (1.77:1) anamorphic source (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/Recode2_(1.77.1)_Anamorphic_Test_Clip.zip). These play back fine in both hardware and software. However, I reckon this is more by luck than by design!

What do you think?


Cheers

[JohnV]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
My apologies then JohnV,

I agree that there does appear to be a problem with Nero's Nevideo.ax filter (which is why I use the much older filter).

But it's got to be their encoder filter that cocks up the encode in the first place. And no amount of fiddling by 3ivX to correct this during decoding is going to correct this, nor should it!

Unless of course Nero is not storing the anamorphic signalling in the bit-steam, just in the container. In which case I would have thought you would not see any 'horizontal' stretching at all. The problem lies in the vertical axis.

Strange that Nero does not have the same problems when encoding from a PAL 720x576 (1.77:1) anamorphic source (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/Recode2_(1.77.1)_Anamorphic_Test_Clip.zip). These play back fine in both hardware and software. However, I reckon this is more by luck than by design!

What do you think?
Cheers Well..
ShowTime seems to ignore AR parameter currently completely.
The issue with Recode is the Pixel Aspect Ratio (PAR) and Display Aspect Ratio (DAR) values which are causing problems in different implementations in anamorphic encodes obviously.
At least 3ivx has video muxer which can change the PAR value afterwards, so in principle it should be possible to make a tool which can cope with PAR/DAR issues and modify both of these values in an existing stream/container.

There's certainly some work to do for developers on this issue.
Currently it's a bit messed up..

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by JohnV
Well..
ShowTime seems to ignore AR parameter currently completely.
The issue with Recode is the Pixel Aspect Ratio (PAR) and Display Aspect Ratio (DAR) values which are causing problems in different implementations in anamorphic encodes obviously. That's true if you are using Nero's newer versions of Nevideo.ax but if you swap over to the old version, the ShowTime player will not only playback XviD and 3ivX anamorphic in .mp4 content correctly but XviD and 3ivX anamorphic in .avi content too!

Have you tried doing this... it's a well weird scenario?

If you use mp4UI to demux the .mp4 video streams I uploaded back to .avi, you will see what I mean :confused:


Cheers

[JohnV]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
I disagree. And the main reason why I'm able to do this is because unlike some of you guys, I'm able to play these encodes via hardware and watch them on a 16:9 TV.

To show you what I mean I've generated some MP4 Anamorphic Test Clips (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/MP4_(2.35.1)_Anamorphic_Test_Clips.zip) using Recode2, XviD and 3ivX, all from the same PAL 720x576, 2.35:1 anamorphic source.
The problem with that MPEG4 2.35:1 Recode clip comes because you don't crop the black bars out of the image. The effective height in that video is clearly less than 576 pixels. Recode computes and uses the aspect ratio from the effective pixels (the MPEG2 DAR), and is confused when you don't crop the video..
Of course Recode should realize that it needs to use different AR and PAR, if you include the black bars from top and bottom, this is a thing which should be fixed.

Recode AR/PAR calculation is a little bit inexact even when only using effective resolution (needs to be fixed). So when you crop to include only the effective pixels and don't include black bars, it's quite close but not precise.

The reason why your PAL 720x576 (1.77:1) anamorphic source is correct in Recode anamorphic encoding is, that the effective height of that video is 576 pixels (or very close), you can check this yourself, no black bars to crop.

I tested Recode precision with 2.40:1 Anamoprhic PAL 720x576 video.
The effective pixels in this video are 720x424 for which the AR is 2.40:1. Recode wants to make the height dividable by 16, so the actual encoded size will be 720x416. I fear there's extra resizing to 416 which decreases the quality a little bit also even if resizing is in principle disabled, unless you do the crop using the manual crop option in Recode, so that the effective height is 416 (dividable by 16). This is the best way to be sure to avoid resizing in this situation (I'm not 100% sure how Recode ends up to the 416, resize or extra auto-crop, but use manual crop to be sure.)
For 720x416 the correct AR=x should be 2.40/(720/424)=x/(720/416) <=> 2.40/1.698 = x/1.730 -> x = 2.445. Recode gives AR 2.5:1 which is a bit off, but quite close.
In 3ivx muxer I can redefine PAR, so to make it correct, I can change the PAR to 244:173 which gives the correct aspect ratio of 2.445:1 for the 720x416 anamorphic encoding.
Of course ShowTime still doesn't work, because the PAR support in it was disabled for some weird reason, but 3ivx decoder works.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure if this 720x416 encoding can be called a real anamorphic encoding, because it's not using the full 720x576 PAL resolution, even though what is left out are only the black bars and a couple of effective lines to make the effective height dividable by 16. In principle it's very close though.
Of course, what you can always do, is to encode with Recode using the full 720x576 reso and include the black bars, and then fix the PAR with 3ivx muxer. But including the black bars does increase the file size, so that's another thing to consider also.

The above things really shouldn't be so hard to fix, so I hope these issues will be checked in Recode at least in the next major version.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by JohnV
The problem with that MPEG4 2.35:1 Recode clip comes because you don't crop the black bars out of the image. The effective height in that video is clearly less than 576 pixels. Recode computes and uses the aspect ratio from the effective pixels (the MPEG2 DAR), and is confused when you don't crop the video..
Of course Recode should realize that it needs to use different AR and PAR, if you include the black bars from top and bottom, this is a thing which should be fixed. So it would seem Recode2's encoding method is not correct. It seems ridiculous that you would need to crop away the mattes from an encode in order for the correct AR to be displayed!

Originally posted by JohnV
Of course ShowTime still doesn't work, because the PAR support in it was disabled for some weird reason, but 3ivx decoder works..Did you have a go with the old version of Nero's DS dec filter? It works perfectly... I don't know why they don't still use it as they are just making matters more confusing for themselves!

Originally posted by JohnV
I tested Recode precision with 2.40:1 Anamoprhic PAL 720x576 video.
The effective pixels in this video are 720x424 for which the AR is 2.40:1. Recode wants to make the height dividable by 16, so the actual encoded size will be 720x416. The exact effective quantity of images pixels is actually 426.66. I must admit if I was cropping the mattes away, I would resize it to the same as a 2.35:1 encode ie: 720x432 pixels!


Originally posted by JohnV
To be honest, I'm not quite sure if this 720x416 encoding can be called a real anamorphic encoding, because it's not using the full 720x576 PAL resolution, even though what is left out are only the black bars and a couple of effective lines to make the effective height dividable by 16. In principle it's very close though.I don't see any reason why not. It's bad enough that the film industry in general redefines the actual meaning of a word to suit it's own requirements. And in my opinion, it's not a practice that should be rolled over into the digital domain (but it would seem I'm in the minority here :D) I was talking last night with a film cameraman friend of mine, about this very subject.... Anyway, I would not worry about it too much, as most of M$'s high-def 1080 encodes could be considered anamorphic, as they only use 1440 horizontal pixels and not the full 1920!

Originally posted by JohnV
The above things really shouldn't be so hard to fix, so I hope these issues will be checked in Recode at least in the next major version. I would like to hope so, but it's not like they haven't know about it since the launch of Recode2, and certainly by the first or second update. I for one have sent them emails and made many posts on this forum! As I said before I don't see why 3ivX should go out of their way to create a correction method for a failing in Recode2...


Cheers

[sbp]

Hi I'm trying to do real time capture from my TV-card. I have been using XVID - and the results are OK. BUT as the Nero-encoder is so much faster, I would like to try this encoder for real time capture.

How can I do that?
Steen

[bond]

Originally posted by LostMP4
Q1. Audio is compressed in constant bitrate or average bitrate - constant quality?no clue, isnt it chooseable which mode you want?

Q2. Will Recode ever allow muxing multiple Audio or Subtitle tracks in the same file?mux other audio streams into the mp4 with your favourite mp4 tool, for example mp4ui

Q3. Any chance to have some different subtitle format compatible with ND?there is only one official text based subtitle format specified in mp4: iso 14996-17 (yeah wierd name ;) )
no others should be used (apart from vobsubs, which nero pushes to become useable on standalones, or mpeg-4 part1)
muxers/creator for mpeg-4 part17 subs are on their way ;)

Q4. Will be PAR supported in encodes (and decodes by ShowTime)?should be already possible in neros encoder

Q4-OT. Shouldn't the X-axis be resized by PAR? 3ivx filters resize the Y-axis?3ivx decoder resizes the stream horizontally ("x-axis")

Q6. Why to limit ND diffusion by allowing to create only backups of unprotected DVDs and not of personal media files?the next version will allow .avs input, which basically will allow you to encode any content

Q7. Is Audio delay "corrected" during Encoding or "stored" in MP4 (I don't know if it's possible)?its possible and i would really wonder if recode2 would not handle delays between audio and video correctly

[JohnV]

Originally posted by LostMP4
Q1. Audio is compressed in constant bitrate or average bitrate - constant quality?
Originally posted by bond
no clue, isnt it chooseable which mode you want?
It's ABR (uses larger bitreservour), but the audio bitrate doesn't fluctuate very much.

[pogo stick]

Originally posted by bond
muxers/creator for mpeg-4 part17 subs are on their way ;)
Ah? You shouldn't tell it. Now I will not be able to sleep. :( :D