DVD backups are pointless?

[idbirch2]

I'm starting to think that the whole thing of backing up DVDs is a waste of time because of the problems I'm having playing back backups I've made. I'm getting skipping, freezing and 'blockyness' after extended playback of movies (80 mins+). Now the more experienced Doom9 visitor is now thinking either 'cheap media;, 'bad backup method' or 'cheap DVD player' but the reason is none of the above and I'll tell you why:

1) I only ever use Verbatim DVD-R and always burn at 1x on my Pioneer 105
2) I only use CCE for encoding and either Nero or ImgTools for burning
3) I have a £300 Pioneer DVD player, which is admittedly a few years old but I have the same problem on my brother's brand new Pioneer player
4) I have tried with and without labels on the discs

The only reasons I can think why this might be happening is either disc age or heating up of the disc in the player. If I'm having problems with playback I can take the discs out the player, waft it around for a bit and playback will continue flawlessly again, even on scenes that were virtually unwatchable just before I took the disc out. Also I have been buying Verbatim media thinking 'these will last for years' yet the backup discs with problems are only a few months old.

The problems I describe do not occur on every backup I make, only some. When it does happen the disc is always spotless - no fingerprints and no dust or dirt.

Can anybody offer an explanation for whats happening here as I losing all faith in the whole process.

[Matthew]

Only thing I can think of - and it's a long-shot - is that you have bought the cheap 15 disc verbatim spindles that aren't true verbatims (i.e. Mitsubishis - MCC) but are actually manufactured by CMC. You can check the manufacturer code using DVD decryptor.

[Master Yoda]

Every ones entitled to there opinion, sometimes i think its point less, when you can pick up alot of dvds is sales etc... for £10.
But then i do it because i can.:)

I will suggest you try dvdrs that have the ritek dye if you have'nt tryed them already, as i use em and i burn em at X4 and the play pefect in my mico A-980S,xbox,ps2.

[Eyes`Only]

It is definitely media. As to why it is happening with Verbatims, I have no idea. But the exact symptoms you are experiencing I have experience with several brands of low quality media, as well as some of the Riteks (seems to be a few in every batch). When I experimented with Princos it occurred on every disc after a certain time period. (I don't have a single Princo that can be reimaged in my collection, they all give read errors now).

The whole idea of this DVDR stuff is to backup our DVDs, and have fun doing it. I have several backups now that don't work and yet they were on Ritek media. I've also seen problems with Imations. But the majority of my DVDR do work, and I've learned to take the whole thing with a grain of salt, because at this point I don't know if we're ever going to have 100% reliable media. My TDKs seem to be working decent though I haven't tested them too much.

Rarely does it make a difference with your settop, from what I've seen. Some settops won't play a certain type of media well, but that is pretty much blanket across the board. For instance, my Apex 1500AD won't play DVD+RW unless I eject/reinsert about 15+ times and then it might 'catch' and start playing. Not a big problem for me, as I don't use DVD+RW or DVD+R anyway. But it was a big problem in the beginning, and was the reason I return my first drive (HP DVD100i) within a week of purchase and instead bought Pioneer and have been happy ever since.

Your methods are correct. 1x burns are the most reliable burns, I believe.

I use a Pioneer DV-250 settop and rarely see the blockiness at the end of a disc. When I do, I can't 'waft the disc around' like you can, in order to restore readability. If I see blockiness, it's permanent, as far as I know. One thing I don't understand though. You have a pioneer settop and use Nero for burning? That's never worked for me. Nero and Pioneer DVD Burners have a known history of never playing together well. Since my Pioneer will never play media burned with Nero, my method is to use imgtool 0.90b4 and then burn the .iso with DVD Decrypter.

One thing to suggest: Don't burn all the way to the outer edge. DVD Rot is known to occur at a much faster rate on that outer edge.

[Master Yoda]

I think with media its just trial and error, as ive never had a dodgy ritek film, except one which was a bad burn ,and i burn them at X4.

[BBWoof]

I've been burning on Princo 1x and 4x and Reitek 2x for quite a while. Every once in a while there is a bad disk, but most times they play fine in both my Apex players and my Phillips.

I think the most important step is to create your image with ImgTools before burning with anything.

BBWoof

[idbirch2]

Thanks for all the replies, I'm going to try a differnet brand of media (never thought I'd say that) and also try reducing the size of my rips slightly so I'm not going so close to the edge of the disc as Eyes`Only suggested.

@Matthew - I use the 25 disc spindles of 2x Verbs - where in
DVD Decrypter can you find the manufacturer code?

edit: After having a look round I'm not sure which brand to go for, I'm not going anywhere near Princo or Mirror/Ice etc but I'm not too sure about the others - Traxdata? Memorex? Maxell? I presume if I try Ritek I should make sure they are Generation4 discs?

edit2: Arrghh!! I just tried DVDInfo on a few of my discs and the Manufacturer ID is coming up as CMCMAG. I have contacted the place I bought them from informing of this and requesting a RMA number. My older discs that used to come in jewel cases are authentic MCC. How do I ensure I get MCC discs, just steer clear of spindles?

[Master Yoda]

The traxdata discs are really good as they use the ritek dye, there what i have at the mo.

[Eyes`Only]

edit2: Arrghh!! I just tried DVDInfo on a few of my discs and the Manufacturer ID is coming up as CMCMAG. I have contacted the place I bought them from informing of this and requesting a RMA number. My older discs that used to come in jewel cases are authentic MCC. How do I ensure I get MCC discs, just steer clear of spindles?Once you find a company that sells them, purchase from them constantly unless something goes wrong to ruin your relationship. Don't trust the 'so cheap it can't be true' deals because there's a reason for them :)

[HyperYagami]

I've been using the retail TDK and it's pretty good. One thing I really hate about buying online is that it takes so much time to exchange/return items (like 2 weeks or something) when something goes wrong, while I can just drive 10 mins down the road and get my refund from local stores.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by idbirch2
How do I ensure I get MCC discs, just steer clear of spindles?

I'm in Australia and Verbatim only sell MCCs here, so I'm not sure of which products are definately MCC.

However, I *believe* that the CMCs are manufacturer in Taiwan, MCCs are manufacturered in Singapore though.

Like Eyes`Only implied another indication should be price. From what I've read on these forums, the CMC discs are sold considerably cheaper. So if the per-disc cost of a spindle is much cheaper than that of a single disc, then it's probably CMC. An online retailer here (au) which sells at good prices, charges $5.03 for a single 2x MCC disc, but when bought in 20 or 50 pack spindles, the same discs are still $4.44 per disc. That makes sense, because it's not like excluding jewel cases is going to slash the costs for verbatim.

[MickeyNBK]

Traxdata? Memorex? Maxell

I've used both Verbatim and Memorex (1x and 2x) and have had problems with nearly every disc. I avoid these brands. Currently I stick with either 4x Riteks or 2x Maxells. I've had the least amount of trouble with those brands.

[DeanOz]

idbirch2, I am experiencing exactly the same problem as you are describing. My Verbatim DVD-Rs (the only brand I have used thus far) are all MCCs and my player is a 4 month old JVC model bought here in Australia.

I am currently playing a DVD-R that was burnt back about 3 months ago that has *never* been played before and it is playing back with no problem.

Could it be that the more these DVD-Rs are played back on some standalones the more the laser deteriorates them?

I will continue to attempt to play one backup over and over and see if this give me any answers. I had noticed that my 'slimline' standalone DVD player has no air ventilation whatsoever so perhaps it needs 2 holes put in it to keep it cooler whilst playing back. *shrug*

Cheers,
DeanOz
:( :o :angry:

[idbirch2]

This had crossed my mind to. I recently made a backup of "The Tramix LeRoaded" for a friend. When it had finished burning i put it in my Pioneer 545 DVD player to show him the fight scene with the benches which played OK. He took it home and watched it and told me it played fine apart from the fight scene we watched the day before which was skipping and going blocky.

It must have been playing this scene that caused this as the rest of the movie played fine. Hmmmmmmmm....

[atreides93]

No, playing these disks over and over against shouldn't damage them...the laser used to read them won't damage them.
More than likely its either heat or just time that's affecting them.

I'm beginning to think verbatim is crap media now....except maybe the dvd+R's that i got recently because they're made by RICOHJPN

[alexnoe]

Juwel Cased 4x Verbatim DVD-R should always be MCC.

[sync]

Originally posted by alexnoe
Juwel Cased 4x Verbatim DVD-R should always be MCC.
I've found that in the USA their DVD-R are usually CMC and DVD+R are either Ricoh or MCC.

[DeanOz]

My *initial* testing is showing that all the Verbatim DVD-Rs that fail during playback are MCC01RG20 and that the Verbatim DVD-R's that seem to be fail-safe are the MCC00RG200.

You can distinguish the difference between the two types of discs just by looking at them. If the inner spindle area is clear with Verbatim written on it then it is a MCC01RG20. If the inner spindle are of the disc is blue then it's the MCC00RG200.

I shall continue testing and if I notice any porformance change I'll let you know.

Cheers,
Dean

[Matthew]

MCC 00RG200 = 2x discs, and can be either blue or clear inner ring colour (ring colour changed from clear to blue late last year).

MCC 01RG20 = 4x discs

So Dean it seems you are talking about 2x verbatims vs 4x verbatims.

[DeanOz]

Thanks for that info, Matthew.

idbirch2, which type of media has failed? Is it 2X, 4X or both?

It seems to me that for a reliable backup I should stick with 2X Verbatims and burn at 1X speed.

The joys of technology... :)

Dean

[alexnoe]

Do you by chance have a Panasonic RV32? :(

[DeanOz]

nah mate. I own a Pioneer DVR-105 and a JVC XV-N33SL

[Ollie W. Holmes]

You have to try experimenting with different burners and different blanks. I have had burn problems with Verbatims (dvd-r) on an early generation Pio A03 and the Sony Firewire burner. Yet very few problems with these discs on a Panasonic LF-D310 or a Panasonic DMR-E10 standalone recorder.

So far, the scrap rate on Verbatim dvd+r blanks is less than 1% with the Sony firewire burner. I have yet to see a Tdk coaster over 50 dvd-r discs, on any burner. It's too bad we have to do so much experimenting to find a reliable combination. Next thing I'm going to try are Philips dvd+r blanks, since I am getting wary of Verbatim in any medium. Has anyone had problems with these on any burner?

[echooff]

I use verbatim dvd+r here in the states and rarely have a bad burn. When I do its usually my mistake. TDK on the 50 spindle was bad news for me. Over a third of them was bad.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by echooff
TDK on the 50 spindle was bad news for me. Over a third of them was bad.

Well I imagine either TDK sold cheap media under their own brand or perhaps more likely they were fakes...I think it was princo that faked TDK code on some of their discs. TDK released a press release, in au anyway, about another company that was releasing fake TDKs.