Comments on the DV to DVD guide

[bb]

Originally posted by Bordo32
@bb, I don’t want to be picky, shouldn’t be a Timecode Setting (in the CCE Encoder setting window) suggested set to 00:00:00:00 instead of keeping at default 01:00:00:00 ?
You're probably right... Does anybody know of the reason why CCE defaults to 01:00:00:00?

bb

[chriskindom]

Originally posted by bb
Sorry for replying late:
For DVD the sampling rate must be 48000 Hz. Set AC3Machine (or BeSweetGUI) accordingly; upsampling is done through ssrc.

bb



yes!, i use the option in AC3machine to upsampling the wav, and i have SSRC. i read carefully all the tutorials. I´m sure theres anything i forgot but i can´t find it.
But when the compression is finish, in PowerDVD and WINDVD there is no sound. I tried many ways.., with vegas surround plugins, i have no problems.
Well, thank you!.

Christian

[NinjaOne]

How do you install Convolution3D I put it in the avs folder but with cce I still get an "Script Error: there is no function named "Convolution3d""

[bb]

Either put it in the "plugins" subdirectory below the AviSynth directory, or use the "LoadPlugin" command in your AVS script.

bb

[NinjaOne]

Thanks for your help, I just finished with the encoding, everything went great.

[matzed]

bb,

Maybe it's a stupid question, but why did you mention in your guide to put "Max bitrate" at 8000 kbps ? I thought that DVD can have a max bitrate at 9800 kbps. With audio at 192 or 224 kbps, having the max bitrate at 9000 would give better quality and leave enough room for titles etc... ?

Matz

[bb]

@matzed:
Because some players have problem with playing DVD+-R media when driven at the limits. So it's recommended to go somewhat lower with the bitrate. If you don't have problems using high bitrates, you can of course go up to 9800 kbps (video and audio and subs altogether). But make sure you don't exceed the max. bitrate.

bb

[matzed]

Thanks, bb. I'll try to see if my DVD player will handle 9.8 Mbps.

Matz

[arkoko]

Sorry my stupid question, but why the following code in script:

Interleave(evn,odd)
Weave()
DoubleWeave.SelectOdd()
Why not only Weave()?

AKo

[FredThompson]

field order is bottom-first with DV. DVD is commonly top-first. This is a way to change the field order but it isn't the best way. It works but, if you examine the stream, you'll see the problems. Simply switching the field order does not work because there is a temporal relationship between the fields.

I don't do this. Most DVD players will accept MPEG2 with bottom field first. Thus, there is no reason to do this operation and it's just one more "change" to the source, reducing quality.

[DDogg]

Hey Fred, how goes the battle in colorspace? :)

I wanted to throw this script up for comment and critique.

I had a situation arise where I needed to get 62 minutes of DV on one 800 cdr and I did not think using straight interlaced at that bitrate was a good idea (even with my beloved ProCoder). This script was the result of snooping around a little. A little of Fred, a little of Stickboy (http://www.avisynth.org/stickboy/), and some scharfis_brain (http://home.arcor.de/scharfis_brain/60ito24p.html) flavored all up with a little dab of Peachsmoother (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58674) and stirred with RoBA cooked up a quite decent 24p encode. 62 mins of this on one 800 cd encode in CCE with a Q of 36 and resulting Q average of 5.25 with a peak of 7.25. Granted it was all talking heads stuff, but still I think it worked out pretty well. Even the pans and zooms were decent.

Note: forget this if you have a slow processor, also, you have to apply pulldown with pulldown.exe after encoding.

#Presents TFF
Import("G:\convert60ito24p.avs")
avisource("D:\NTSCDV.avi").DoubleWeave.SelectOdd.ConvertToYUY2( interlaced=true).ReInterpolate411()
jdl_UnfoldFieldsVertical(flip=true)
PeachSmoother(NoiseReduction=50, Stability=30, Spatial=200, NoiseLevel=3.5, BaseLine=2.5)
jdl_FoldFieldsVertical(flip=true)
DGBob(Order=1,mode=1).convert60ito24p(2,0)
#resized to 480x480

/Added - So Fred won't beat me up :)

#Presents BFF (At least I think so)
Import("G:\convert60ito24p.avs")
avisource("D:\NTSCDV.avi").ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true).ReInterpolate411()
jdl_UnfoldFieldsVertical(flip=true)
PeachSmoother(NoiseReduction=50, Stability=30, Spatial=200, NoiseLevel=3.5, BaseLine=2.5)
jdl_FoldFieldsVertical(flip=true)
DGBob(Order=0,mode=1).convert60ito24p(2,0)
#resized to 480x480

[FredThompson]

The battle continues... ;)

Personally, I don't try to swap field order anymore. You'll either lose the very beginning and end or mess up the temporal aspect. DVDs can be bottom field first. So...why swap, goof up the video, and increase processor time?

Yeah, you've convinced me about ProCoder. Very nice. Very long compiole time but very nice.

KVCD has some stuff you might be interested in. I'd taken their filters and made a field-oriented version with no blurring on the frame before a scene change. That might be around the forums somewhere. Since you're going to progressive, take a look at their stuff. Worth a shot.

[bb]

Originally posted by FredThompson
So...why swap, goof up the video, and increase processor time?
Because you want to encode with CCE?

bb

[FredThompson]

CCE has an advanced setting to set field order

[bb]

Originally posted by FredThompson
CCE has an advanced setting to set field order

:confused:
Which one?

bb

[FredThompson]

I know it's in 2.66+, look at the PDF manual. Maybe Custom's site has a changelog that will show when this became available.

[arkoko]

Originally posted by bb
:confused:
Which one?

bb
In v.2.67 Offset Line=1 = bottom field first.

Ako

[bb]

Yeah, that's the "Upper field first" flag in CCE versions before 2.67. Of course I know that one, but that's not what I'd call an advanced setting to set field order

bb

[FredThompson]

Sigh...it's detailed in the manual in section 3.6, Advanced Settings of the Encoder.

[DDogg]

CCE faq Q11 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770)

[bb]

Thank you very much, guys. You're telling me stuff that I've know for ages. Thus it's not very helpful, neither the repitition nor the sighing.

From the CCE 2.66 manual:
3.6.3 Specifying field order
If Upper field first is selected, the upper field is displayed on a
TV monitor first. Whether this should be selected depends on the
configuration of the original file to be encoded, but if this is uncertain,
select upper field. If this setting is incorrect, the movement of a
encoded video will be jerky.
This setting is valid only in MPEG-2 encoding mode.

Switching on the upper field checkbox results in the first line of the frame being dropped and the last one being copied. If you prefer this method over the DoubleWeave.SelectOdd() method, it's your choice. I still would not call this an "advanced" method.

bb

[FredThompson]

****, *****. The documentation has the setting in an area called, "advanced." DVD2SVCD has it in the "advanced settings" pop-up. That's all there is to it.

[kempfand]

The best solution is to change field order with Avisynth script, for example
AviSource("V:\original.avi")
DoubleWeave().SelectOdd() and then to CCE-encode with deactivated tff-checkbox.

Checking the tff-checkbox with CCE 2.66+ results in moving the picture one row upwards, in other words: the picture is moved upwards and does no longer correspond to the original. Also, more serious, it doesn't work on every PC.

Regards,
Andreas

P.S. Only applies when no spatio-temporal filters are used, in which case UnfoldFieldsVertical / FoldFieldsVertical should be used

[FredThompson]

Doesn't that give you a half-frame at the beginning and a half-frame at the end? IOW, you get one field in the first frame along with a blank field and the same in the last frame? I seem to recall that happening with the result that it would mess up frame-accurate editing.

Surely, there's a proper way to encode as BFF and just leave it as that, isn't there?

[matzed]

I don't understand everything concerning the last subject (fileds of deinterlaced sources), but for me, when i tested the AVISynth script of the guide, scenes were jerky on my standalone.

I posted here a thread and bb suggested me to drop the last line, DoubleWeave().SelectOdd(), and it worked.

Matz

[bb]

To summarize, how to treat interlaced DV video best regarding the field order depends on the capabilities of your encoder. CCE doesn't support bff encoding, so you have to either use the internal function, which shifts the lines, or use DoubleWeave.SelectOdd(). I prefer the latter. If your encoder supports bff encoding, then do that (but be careful that its bff option doesn't simply shift the lines like CCE does while still encoding tff).

bb

[DDogg]

bb, I finally got off my butt and did a thing on how to create a template in cce 2.67. (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64800) Maybe it will be of use to you.

[bb]

DDogg,

excellent. I'll see when I get the time to integrate it into the "DV to DVD" guide. I was thinking of a chapter about the DVD2SVCD automated method for beginners.

bb

[FredThompson]

You might also want to include something about the current release of AVI2SVCD's CVD settings being broken.

[bb]

Originally posted by FredThompson
You might also want to include something about the current release of AVI2SVCD's CVD settings being broken.
Seems like I have to read up on that one...

bb

[FredThompson]

It's been a while but I think the post is in the "beginner's" area for DVD2SVCD. I noticed you could set the output as CVD but that's not what was being generated. IIRC, it was correctly modifying the source resolution but then adding black borders on the sides to yield full D1.

[DDogg]

it should be fixed next release. I am pretty sure it is "in the hopper".

[bb]

*bump*

bb

[RathO]

In the guide, i would say a word on the new Frameserver 2.0, its support is better. Didn't use to work with my MSP7, but now it does!

It works great, is free, and give us the opportunity to encode with the best encoders available. ;)

Here: http://www.debugmode.com/frameserver/

Enjoy!

[BizUser]

First of all, thanks for the guide!

In section 3.1 (CCE), you have '3.1.1 - Create an Avisynth Script'. Is this avisynth script specifically for CCE, or should this be a more general step, regardless of whether you use CCE, TMPG, etc? I was hoping this was the case, because I'd like to take advantage of the presumed benefits of Convolution3D and ReInterpolate411, but I use TMPG, not CCE.

Unfortunately, I see that in section 3.2 (TMPGEnc), you use the avi file as the source, not the avs file, so ... I guess the Avisynth script really is for CCE only. How come?

I tried to use the avisynth script in TMPG, but could not get it to work.

Just in case it should/could work, here's what happened. I first of all realised that I had a very old version of avisynth (have been away from this hobby for almost a year, and used to do DVD backup, but now I need to do DV capture). So I downloaded Avisynth 2.5.

I then downloaded the ReInterpolate411 plugin, but got an error that it required YUY2 input (confirmed in the reinterpolate411 information that it requires YUY2 format for Avisynth 2.5 at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/trbarry/downloads.htm). I set the pixel_type to YUY2 in the AVISource string, and solved that problem.

But then I downloaded the convolution3D filter, and when I used it in my script, got an error that it was not compatible with Avisynth 2.5. Found an updated version (beta ...) of convolution3d (http://www.hellninjacommando.com/con3d/beta/) for avisynth 2.5, but then got an error that convolution3d requires YV12 - directly contradicting the need for YUY2 above (or am I missing something here?). Am I required to do a (second?) color space conversion (from YUY2 to YV12 before invoking convolution3D?

My source AVI was created by ScenalyzerLive, using the type 2 canopus codec, in case that matters. Thanks!

<update> - I found a version of convolution3d that works with YUY2, and I'm testing with it now. The curious thing is, it's not on the author's own site... I had to get it from another site. Anyway, if you run into this issue, you can go to this site: http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises/
and download the yuy2 version - it's the one that does NOT have a colorspace designation in the name (the other one has 'yv12' in the name). I figured this out from this guide http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225951 over at videohelp.com.

[bb]

Originally posted by BizUser
[...]In section 3.1 (CCE), you have '3.1.1 - Create an Avisynth Script'. Is this avisynth script specifically for CCE, or should this be a more general step, regardless of whether you use CCE, TMPG, etc? I was hoping this was the case, because I'd like to take advantage of the presumed benefits of Convolution3D and ReInterpolate411, but I use TMPG, not CCE.
Yes, you can use AviSynth in conjunction with other encoders. You may want to modify the script under certain circumstances, e.g. not convert to upper field first video, and encode bff instead (provided that the encoder supports that).

Originally posted by BizUser
[...]Unfortunately, I see that in section 3.2 (TMPGEnc), you use the avi file as the source, not the avs file, so ... I guess the Avisynth script really is for CCE only. How come?
TMPGEnc can do without AviSynth, although it's still a good idea to use it because of the many great filters etc. TMPGEnc has internal filters you may use, and I guess for beginners it's easier to use TMPGEnc alone.

Originally posted by BizUser
I tried to use the avisynth script in TMPG, but could not get it to work.
Check for the AVI reader priority. I assume that you'll find a solution in the forum by using the search button, too ;)

Originally posted by BizUser
[...]I then downloaded the ReInterpolate411 plugin, but got an error that it required YUY2 input [...] Am I required to do a (second?) color space conversion (from YUY2 to YV12 before invoking convolution3D?[...]
Check out http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises/
Use convolution3d_25_dll_20030422.

bb

[BizUser]

Originally posted by bb
Yes, you can use AviSynth in conjunction with other encoders. You may want to modify the script under certain circumstances, e.g. not convert to upper field first video, and encode bff instead (provided that the encoder supports that).
bb
After downloading the correct color-space version of convolution3D, I was able to get everything to work (I found it and updated my post, presumably while you were writing your reply!).

However, the output was clearly messed up - interlaced wrong (jerky).

Now I see your reply, and you say '...not convert to upper field first video, and encode bff instead'. I figured that out myself, and changed TMPGEnc from BFF (the setting I originally used since it wast DV source) to TFF and solved the problem. But I'd rather remove un-necessary stuff from the avisynth script. To this end, I re-read your guide and all the posts in this thread. I have just one question ... the following three lines apparently switch field order to TFF:


Interleave(evn,odd)
Weave()
DoubleWeave.SelectOdd()

One post implied that this could be replaced by just 'Weave()', but another suggests that you would simply remove the last line ('DoubleWeave.SelectOdd()'). So ... for TMPGEnc, with a BFF DV source AVI, what exactly should I use to produce BFF input to TMPGEnc? I'm guessing the Interleave(evn,odd) has to be there to re-constitute the interlaced material, but would like to double-check!

[Peter1234]

BizUser,

DoubleWeave.SelectOdd() #### this reverses field order

Interleave(even,odd).Weave() #### this re-interleaves fields

[bb]

Yes, to keep the video BFF, just remove the line DoubleWeave.SelectOdd()

bb

[Video Dude]

I read the debate on pages 1 and 2 about the colorspaces (0-255 and 16-235). But that discussion was based on RGB conversions.

What if your DV codec decodes in YUY2 0-255?

Should you add Limiter() at the end of the AviSynth script to clamp it to 16-235 if your goal is DVD for display on a TV?

The luminace selection buttons in CCE have no effect since it is YUY2 input and not RGB (according to both Doom9 and RB's CCE guides). So should CCE recieve YUY2 0-255 or YUY2 16-235 for DVD encoding?

The AviSynth Docs suggest YUY2 16-235 for TV display, but I just want to confirm this as Limiter seems to make the video brighter.

[Wilbert]

IF it gives YUY2 0-255 (which you can check by using the histogram, and looking up some very bright/dark spots), then you should scale it to 16-235 (and not clamp to it) using

ColorYUV(levels="PC->TV")

[bsr]

If I'm not going to do any filtering, but I want to resize to 352x480, would the prefered way be to just use TMPGEnc, crop to 704 and encode to 352.
Or should I use AVISYNTH for crop to 704x480, Lanzcos Resize to 352x480, and then use TMPGEnc to just encode?
Or does it not really make a difference, just looking for others preferences.

[bb]

bsr,

I don't believe that you'd see much of a difference. Lanczos resize is more accurate than Bicubic, but in my opinion it's not worth the extra rendering time for video (for stills it's another story).

I'd use AviSynth if I need special filters, and TMPGEnc alone if not.

bb

[Kika]

ColorYUV(levels="PC->TV")

If TMPGEnc is used for Encoding, there's absolutly no need to do this. TMPGEnc is able to handle this correctly.

For Source with a Lumarange of 0-255, got to Setting -> Quantize matrix and set Output YUV data as basic YCbCr not CCIR to the OFF-State. If the Range is 16-235, set it to ON.
This will give you much better results than working with ColorYUV.

[Wilbert]

If TMPGEnc is used for Encoding, there's absolutly no need to do this. TMPGEnc is able to handle this correctly.
Yeah, yeah. I still remember the discussion :) He was talking about CCE.

[Kika]

Yeah, but bb talked about TMPGEnc ;)

BTW: Is the actual Version of CCE able to handle this Luma-Range-Stuff correctly? Or does it still need ColorYUV?

[bb]

Are we still on topic? I'd appreciate some more comments on the guide itself.

bb

[Kika]

OK, you wanted it... ;)

I suggest you to insert a Note about the Field Order Stuff. Like others here said, your Script reverses the Field order. But in the TMPGEnc-Selection you are using BFF, which is the wrong setting if your Script is used.
You have not to change the Script or the Guide at all, just insert a couple of notes to prevent misunderstandings.

Kika

[Wilbert]

BTW: Is the actual Version of CCE able to handle this Luma-Range-Stuff correctly? Or does it still need ColorYUV?
You mean if you feed it with YUV [0,255]? I don't know cce very well, but I suspect it won't scale it. It shouldn't be difficult to test this.

[ZeB]

3.2 TMPGEnc

It is really easy to use TMPGEnc for DV to DVD conversions. Start the encoder, cancel the wizard (if applicable), and open your DV type-1 or type-2 file via the "Browse" button next to the "Video source" field.

If I do this, I just get a black screen in TMPGEnc. It works if I make an avisynth script (DirectShowSource("DV-video.avi", 25)). Even CCE can open the DV-file.

What am I doing wrong?