Divx questions...why use it instead of MPG?

[kwag]

Originally posted by Kika
It has a lot to do with effective(!) Resolutions. That's how Quantisation with such Matrices works. It cut's of Frequencies. And what are the frequencies stand for? They are a kind of "fill in" for the Details of a Block. Cutting of some Frequencies will automaticaly drop some Details to. And a loss on Details is a lowering of the effective Resolution. Simple, isn't it? No :D
Frequencies are frequencies, and resolutions are resolutions!
I understand your point, but if you look at KVCD's matrix, you'll see that the notch is on the lowest frequency domain, which applies to very low lit and dark scenes. On the medium to high frequency spectrum of the matrix, you'll notice that it goes above the standard MPEG matrix, thus enhancing high frequeny components. And only in the last blocks, It drops a little, referenced to the standard MPEG matrix, to kill high frequency artifacts that are more visible witn the standard MPEG matrix. So it's really a Notch/Lowpass (or Bandstop/Lowpass, you can call it that too!) filter design.
kwag and i may have our different meanings about which one is better (MPEG1 or 2), but i guess we both do think, we are able to produce Videos with the same, in some cases better, Quality than in DivX.

Kika
Yes Kika. I'm 100% with you on this one. DivX perform very good, maybe better (in some cases) than MPEG-1/2, but ONLY on low bitrates. DivX just doesn't scale well (it wasn't designed to scale anyway!) , and MPEG-1/2 just looks WAY better on high action scenes, and higher bitrates.

-kwag

[SeeMoreDigital]

Oh my goodness, you are using a Softwareplayer to compare Videos?
Did you never notice that Softwareplayers ALWAYS are producing a more unsharp Picture while Playback on MPEG2?
The only way to compare is a Stand-alone or a direct extracted Frame but never a Softwareplayer. Absolutely not!

I was simply trying to make a point that even on a PC screen a low bitrate 720x480/576 Mpeg1 encode will look better than an Mpeg2 encode at the same bitrate!

But please, by all means create and post some of your Mpeg2 test files for us all to view. Anything at 1150kbps or below will do for starters!

Cheers

[Kika]

I was simply trying to make a point that even on a PC screen a low bitrate 720x480/576 Mpeg1 encode will look better than an Mpeg2 encode at the same bitrate!

Nothing to say about that, MPEG1 DO look better on the PC Screen, but this depents on the Players, not on the Encoding-Technics.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Kika,

If you create some low bitrate Mpeg2 files I'll play them back using any one of the 20no or so DVD players we have. And display the images on any of the 3no 42" plasma motitors we have. We can even use projectors if you like.

There's not alot of equipment we don't have or can get access to.

Cheers

[Kika]

I talked about Software-Players, not the Equipment you use to show the Movie. All Software-Players are doing this: MPEG1 does look sharper then MPEG2. That's not new. You can't use any Software-Player to compare MPEG1 to MPEG2. Only Stand-alones or Cards like a DVB-Card with Hardware-Decoder and TV-Out are doing a good Job.
Or you take Snapshots by using programs without DirectShow-Functions.

There's not alot of equipment we don't have or can get access to.

Same here, i can use all the Equipment we have in the Test-Lab of our PC Magacine...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Same here, i can use all the Equipment we have in the Test-Lab of our PC Magacine... Well that's great news. When do you think you will be able to generate and post some 1150kbps VBR 704/720x480/576 Mpeg2 encodes?

Time's a-wasting!

Cheers

[Kika]

Read my earlier posting (29th August 2003 22:12).

I have to change some of my methodes to suit Non-Anime-Source very well. That's not a big problem, but time consuming.
Do you have any special wish? 4:3, 16:9? Anamorphic or Letterboxed?

I will not create a workaround for all kind of resolutions. Haven't the time to do that, but i will create one for one Movie. I will not use any AVISynth-Script for filtering, i don't need that. Only for resizing. Then you have to do exactly the same, using MPEG1. To see is to belive... ;)

[ppera2]

This time-wasting reminds me about encoding time.
TMPGenc is very slow. Even 2-pass DivX or Xvid encoding is faster.
So, this can be argument why use DivX.
Other, related things: are those low-bitrate Mpeg1 encodings 1-pass encodings? If yes, how good is file size predictable? If no, better buy new, fastest available CPU:)

[SeeMoreDigital]

If you want to stick with anime. Any fast chapter from Toy Story 2 will do but Chapter 2 is not bad for starters. But as the entire movie is only 89min long it should be quite a simple task to encode the entire DVD to CD-R at 720x576 (or 704x576 for Mpeg1 KVCD).

This movie is also quite good because it's one of the few true 1.77:1 DVD's available. And as such occupies all of the 720x576 pixels.

For non animie, you could try some chapters from Planet of the Apes or Contact chapter 32 'Okay to go'

Cheers

I'll post you the DivX and WMV9 (VCM) encodes of Toy Story 2 on CD-R (with audio at 128kbps) if you like. Maybe kwag could post you the same using his Mpeg1 KVCD matrices.

We could have a post thing going between us three if we PM each other.

Cheers

[Kika]

Speed is very relative. For me, it does not matter. For other people... maybe they prefer speed over quality.

1pass or 2pass (Multipass)... All my Encodings are done in 1pass (CQ-Mode). It's the only way to get the maximum Quality (if you are using TMPGEnc). But predicting the Filesize... Um, on my Anime-Encodings, that's no Problem. With "real" Videos it's a bit harder (i think).
I always do a couple of Testencodings (parts of the Movie) before starting the whole process.

I'm still searching for a way to get a List of the Frames-Numbers with Action-Parts of the Movie to use in MVBR-Mode in TMPGEnc. A list like that:

Frame xx to xx = High Action
Frame xx to xx = Low Action
and so on.

If i had such a list, i may be able to do some little magic tricks ;)

@SeeMoreDigital
Unfortunatly, i don't have the DVDs of Toy Story or Planet of the Apes. What do you think about Galaxy Quest (PAL Version) for a test?

And yes, maybe we should use Mail or PM to clear up further things. It's becoming a monster thread here ;)

Kika

... jesus, lot's of typos... :D

[bb]

What do you think about comparing KVCD MPEG-1 to XviD MPEG-4 using the KVCD matrices? I believe using the same matrices would lead to a fair comparison.

bb

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by bb
What do you think about comparing KVCD MPEG-1 to XviD MPEG-4 using the KVCD matrices? I believe using the same matrices would lead to a fair comparison. Hi BB,
Well if we can't agree on the movie to be encoded and the output pixel image frame size first, we will never get any encoding done!

Personally I really think the encodes must be from a 'non' animie source, must not be cropped or resized (other than required by Mpeg spec) and be no more than 120mins long. For me Planet of the Apes at 115mins would be perfect, as it's not the easiest of movies to encode and look good at low bitrates!

But KVCD Mpeg1 versus Mpeg4 is not the issue here. Kika, has thrown down a challenge by saying he can create better looking low bitrate Mpeg2 encodes against low bitrate Mpeg1.

Both kwag and I would like to see whether or not Kika can do it! If he can, I'll be the first pat him on the back and send him some Euro 'beer vouchers'!

Cheers

[Kika]

Personally I really think the encodes must be from a 'non' animie source

Agree, Anime is a different story


must not be cropped or resized (other than required by Mpeg spec)

Yeah, i prefer the 704x576-Resolution.

While the next Days, i have to do a couple of Tests.
My frist test with CCE failed (as i expected), but that's not a problem, i prefer TMPGEnc. ;)

[Ookami]

Hey!

This reminds me of the UB days when Kika, Andreas and AngelSVCD, mb1 et al where discussing about MPEG1 vs. MPEG2 etc. :)

Hihi...

Eh, anyway, nice to see such a thread, altough it will, probably, stay unread in my My Documents folder for months :( .

Hope that everyone "here" is fine.

Cheers,

Mijo.

[Kika]

Hi Mijo, you can't live without Doom9, eh? :)

This reminds me of the UB days when Kika, Andreas and AngelSVCD, mb1 et al where discussing about MPEG1 vs. MPEG2 etc.

Yeah, it has been a while since this Discussions (can it be..., 2 years?). I liked them. I'm here in the english Doom9 since the "old german crew" doesn't exists any longer :(

For me, doing some research and experiences in Videoencoding is a Kind of fascinating "Game" with the side effect of learning a lot.

Kika

BTW: How are you doing? PM me if you like.

[Ookami]

Hi Mijo, you can't live without Doom9, eh?

Hi, well, yes and no :) . It's great to save interesting threads, but I rarely find the time to read them... Not to mention that I have so much unanswered e-mails, unfinished business (*cough* lazy DVDx tester *cough*) so...

Yeah, it has been a while since this Discussions (can it be..., 2 years?). I liked them. I'm here in the english Doom9 since the "old german crew" doesn't exists any longer

Yes, probably ~2 years. If you want to refresh your memory, I've saved the majority of those threads... BTW, have to read up on VideoXone too, a bit. As for the old german crew, many can be found here, you are a good example :) .

For me, doing some research and experiences in Videoencoding is a Kind of fascinating "Game" with the side effect of learning a lot.

For me it's somehow the other way around, the longer I was in the scene, the lazier I got. Even Fair Use got too complicated for me.

BTW: How are you doing? PM me if you like.

I'm fine, will PM you ASAP, but don't hold your breath, must reply to DarkSoul's e-mail (wich is older than 1 month :scared: ) and all the others first.

All the best to all of you and nice to see this board as good as always, if not better.

Cheers,

Mijo.