Hollywood Menu in 4:3 instead of 16:9

[drpaulng]

Most of the Hollywood DVDs use 4:3 Menu instead of 16:9. What is the reason?

I tried to authored with 16:9 menu using Scenarist but fail to make a correct subpicture position matching the black-barred letter box in a 4:3 TV. I tried to author according to the manual, the simulation window shows that I was correct by providing 2 different subpictures for the wide and letterboxed format....but in the real world, it failed to play normally for a 16:9 menu on a 4:3 TV.

So, I have the idea that scenarist may have some bug in authorig 16:9 menu and that is why most of the Hollywood DVDs do not use 16:9 menu at all.

[SurfDrifter]

I had this problem myself...
What i did was to redesign the buttons and have the Letterbox version as the first subpicture and the wide was the second...
After some trial and error, it worked...
Just create a test project and compile until it shows OK...
I have a DXR3 card, so testing was very easy...

[drpaulng]

Do you mean Scenarist 2.7 (XXX version) can utilize the DX3 Video Card for hardware decoding?

I do test correctly for the letterboxed simulation by software decoding (I think). But it turns out to be mismatching when being played on a 4:3 TV for the letterbox_subpicture. It seems the letterbox_subpicture is not switched automatically.

Do you think we need to use the very complicated method of SPRM and GPRM (in this case SPRM 14) to force-select the letterbox_subpicture when the 16:9 menu is played on a 4:3 TV...and how?

[SurfDrifter]

No, it doesn't work, but DXR3 works as a "stand-alone" DVD player. If i haven't had that card, i should have to burn to a DVD every time to check/proof my project
WinDVD and PowerDVD(and maybe all SW players), RESIZE the subpicture, but in real world, DVD specification doesn't allow that...
The stand alone dvd players, just resize the video and NOT the sub, that's why if you rip a 16:9 DVD, you'll see that the menus have 2 subpicture tracks...

Also, i created with Scenarist 2.7 a 16:9 menu today and i placed the LB sub as the first track and the WD sub as the second track and worked perfectly...Off course, i had to redesign for each version the appropriate buttons. I hope you don't forget that!

BTW, with DXR, you can have menu simulation(not movies) in DVDMaestro! It's very cool.

[Evanesco]

Use DVD Menu Studio from http://www.mediachance.com.
This fine little proggy can make 16:9 menu's and is able to generate a Scenerist script ready to be further authored while everything fits in both 16:9 and 4:3 ( if you make 16:9 menus ). Try it!

Oh, remember to setup the DVD player for 4:3 display.. ;)

[drpaulng]

Thanks for the suggestions. Whatever methods, it seems my scenarist 2.7 is different from the rest of yours when the simulation windows all shows correct matching of 16:9 mneu on 4:3 TV. The final result is unfortunately a mismatch. Maybe the surest way is to author through GPRM/SPRM 14 method. However, I have limited info on the parameters.

[SurfDrifter]

OK, just for testing purposes, create a NEW project and experiment the way i told you...I'm sure you'll have success!

[drpaulng]

SurfDrifter,

I'll try it your way...but I've already done so once before long time ago (though I've never test it on the 4:3 TV).

[dan]

The Hollywood menus are NOT (NOT NOT NOT) plain old 4:3. They are 16:9 panscan [sometime called 4:3 panscan], that's why your subpictures don't line up. [For the sake of argument, some menus letterbox on 4:3 (i.e. Minority Report in the U.S. at least), but most are panscan.] The menus are made this way so that they fill 4:3 TVs as well as 16:9 TVs without having to add letterboxing or separate menus for each display mode [though you do need separate subpictures {and highlight areas} for each display mode]. These menus look like they're simple 4:3, but actually have picture information for the entire 16:9 display. And there doesn't need to be that SPRM test. The player chooses the display mode for the menus that the user selected in the player's setup. If the user's chosen 4:3 display mode [letterbox or panscan] does not exist on the disc As Surfdrifter said, I've found that software players [PowerDVD XP at least] play the menus in the 16:9 widescreen mode, so it's tough to check whether everything lines up (aside from the Scenarist preview window which is [I]fairly accurate. If your buttons don't line up, as someone already said on this thread, it might be because there aren't highlight areas defined for each display mode. This is one of the trickiest and seemingly least intuitive parts of Scenarist. And that says a lot.


I made a little guide for making "Hollywood"-type menus here... http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45870&highlight=guide+widescreen+menus



Thanks,
Dan

P.S. Sorry if I sound snippy, it's unintentional I promise.

[drpaulng]

Well, if the 16:9 menu was authored with letterbox_subpicture being the first subpicture stream and the wide_subpicture being the second one...guess what happened???

The 16:9 menu matches on a 4:3 TV with black bars on top and bottom (so the DVD player is set to "letterbox" display mode). However, when you set the DVD player back to wide TV (normal for plasma TV or widescreen projector, the subpicture becomes annoyingly mismatching again, and this time, for the enhanced wide format! Maybe "SurfDrifter" would like to re-examine the reversed result in mismatching for the widescreen TV.

The way "dan" described for Panscan mode should be a good alternative if we simply ignore to use the precommand with the very complicated GPRM/SPRM 14 logic. I'll try to make some experiment later.

I saw most of the Hollywood DVDs are authored with simple 4:3 format because my DVD Player setting is the "16:9 compressed mode" in progressive scan which automatically switches between 16:9 movie and 4:3 menu without the need to manually change the wide TV setting back and forth for the wide and normal TV screen. The panscan menu is not awared of so far by me. Perhaps I should dig deeper into the subject before I conclude there is actually a bug in scenarist 2.7 (xxx version). Thanks for SurfDriter and dan. By the way, DVD Menu Studio is a 2-thumbs up software. Thank you. Evanesco.




Ref:
http://www.tfdvd.com/public/78.cfm

[DaRat]

I had the same prob (mismatching subpics) for auite some time. There is only one thing you have to do: when adding subpictures for the second aspect ratio, first create a new subpicture stream by selecting New > Subpicture Stream and THEN drag the subpic itself into the stream. That should do the trick.

As for your 4:3 menu thing: If you have all other assets coded into 16:9 you should choose 4:3 (or 16:9 dont remember) Pan&Scan for the format of your project. Scenarist should put a flag into all the material it encodes (still pictures) andf leave the others as thy are. If you use ws video streams for menus youd like to be displayed as a Pan&Scan material, just set the Pan&Scan flag in them manually (i guess pulldown.exe is capable of doing so).

And a lil help for other fellas whod like to do PAL 4:4 PS menus: follow the exact same guide Dan linked 2 post before this, except change the sizes to: original size (work in this) is 1152x576, final size (import into scenarist) 720x576, to get the correct 4:3 PS subpicture, resize your original (1152x576) to 960x576, copy the middle 720x576 (easiest way is to make a new image, 720x576, fill it with a solid color, copy, paste into original, use magic wand to select the whole pasted stuf, switch back to other layer containing your sp and copy) and youre done.

[drpaulng]

I created the subpictures by directly dragging the wide_subpicture or the letterbox_subpicture in the track editor. I don't know if "New > Subpicture and then dragging the subpicture" can help solving the problem. The DVD Menu Studio script importing method does not work.
Anyway, I've just found the SPRM 14 parameter, for anyone who may be interested in, check this:

bit10-bit11 preferred display aspect ratio
0=4:3,
1=not specified,
2=reserved,
3=16:9

bit8-bit9 current video mode
0=normal,
1=pan/scan,
2=letterbox,
3=reserved

I hope someone can help solving the problem...What is the bit10-11, and bit8-9??? Very interesting but I am totally lost in these...
It seems I should go back to the basic mathematics for bitwise logic now (I've never learned this at school)...and there should be a way to operate with the right syntax.

Ref:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1563.asp

[Evanesco]

OK, I know I'm pros here ( at least it sounds like ), so forget all about my previous post. But I couldn't stop reading the posts, and I learned a lot.. thanx for that!

I found pdf document on SONIC's website that might have some interest for you guys.

The is called "Multi-Aspect Ratios in Scenarist" and describes "A detailed Guide to creating 16:9 menus for WideScreen and Letterbox"

http://cs.sonic.com/scripts/texcel/swise/TxSwDownload/e2f302d0e2f302dce2f302dde2f30183/Multi_Aspect_Menus_Scen.pdf

probably this is already old news to you...

have phun anyway..
And I will continue to learn the bi.th a some more

[drpaulng]

I think I have found the solution with the "bitwise sum" logic (Extracting and Clearing Values).

(1)Read the SPRM14 value into a registry, say GPRM0.
(2)Set GPRM1 to 512 (This value can screen out the bit8-bit9 value for letterbox display).
(3)Now use bitwise sum logic to extract the "10" (means 2 = letterbox, SEE ABOVE) at bit8-bit9 by applying GPRM1 to GPRM0.

0000001000000000 (this is binary for 512, where the bit8-bit9 is "10" which is "2 = letterbox").

(4)Now if the DVD Player is set to display in letterbox mode, the SPRM14 value is extracted out by the bitwise sum logic to the "true" value which is now equals 512.
(5)Set the "jump command" if the GPRM0 == GPRM1

The "jump command" can be any action you want, such as linking to a 4:3 menu or showing the proper letterbox_subpicture. That would be all right for proper display of DVD menu in a 4:3 TV set at letterbox mode.

I'm still not very familiar with the bitwise logic...It happens that the value "3 = reserved" at bit8-bit9 also returns a "true" value. But since this is reserved, no DVD player is set at this display mode. So, I can pass with this "Extracting and Clearing Values" bitwise logic safely this time.

EXAMPLE 1:

1:Mov GPRM0, SPRM14 (set GPRM0 to a value equals the DVD player's display mode)
2:Mov GPRM1, 512 (assign a "bitwise screening" value to extract the "10" of bit8-bit9, which is "2 = letterbox")
3:Or GPRM0, GPRM1 (do the bitwise and operation)
4:if(GPRM0==GPRM1) JumpTT Title_2 (if 4:3 letterbox display mode is set, GPRM0 should be extract to a new value that equals 512, and of course equals GPRM1...and thus jump to the 4:3 menu at Title_2).

This is successful in bringing on to Title_2 (a 4:3 menu) when the DVD Player is set at "4:3 letterbox" display mode. Otherwise, if the player is set at "normal (16:9)" display mode, the 4:3 menu (Title_2) will not be linked to.

[drpaulng]

Forget about the previous bitwise sum logic. Maybe, a clear way to do the "bitwise extraction" is to use 768 as the extraction mask:

The bitwise sum operator can be used as a "mask" to extract out the data at particular bit, say bit8-bit9 on SPRM14.

bit8-bit9 current video mode
0=normal, (0000000000000000) decimal = 0
1=pan/scan, (0000000100000000) decimal = 256
2=letterbox, (0000001000000000) decimal = 512
3=reserved, (0000001100000000) decimal = 768


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (SPRM14 value)
0000001100000000 (768 is the mask for bit8-bit9)
---------------------------------------
000000xx00000000 (bitwise sum)

Now compare the result to the 4 SPRM14 preset values shown above (0,256,512,768 corresponding to 0=normal, 1=pan/scan, 2=letterbox, 3=reserved) and you'll get to where you want.

[drpaulng]

Albeit, my time and effort devoted these few days on the subject of mismatching of subpicture overlaying the 16:9 menu being displayed on a 4:3 TV with the DVD player setting to 4:3 letterbox. I still have no simple solution to this problem with scenarist 2.7 (xxx.version). If I authored with the letterbox_subpicture being the 1st stream while the wide_subpicture (normal) being the 2nd stream, I got a very good matching of letterboxed menu on a 4:3 TV. However, when I placed the DVD to a normal widescreen TV. The mismatching of subpicture was seen again (just the reverse when the letterbox_subpicture is placed as the 2nd stream, ie there is a mismatch of subpicture seen on a 4:3 TV).

Then I searched the web and found some articles on this topic. DVD Maestro and DVDFusion use a special method by providing at least 2 different menus (one 4:3 and one 16:9) to be displayed while Scenarist can accept 2 subpictures and only one widescreen menu. My problem is, however I tried to author according to the manual and followed the steps everyone else told me here in the forum, I still failed to create a matching menu for both types of display for a 16:9 menu frame.

The GPRM/SPRM method successfully links to the appropriate menus (at least 2, one 16:9 and one 4:3) but needs a lot of tactics to do the interconversion of binary and decimal in the bitwise sum operation. However, it STILL FAILS to make a "double feature 16:9 menu" with my scenarist 2.7 (xxx version).

CONCLUSION:
Just make one 4:3 menu like most of the Hollywood DVDs on the market. This is the safest method almost all the commercial production follows. Or make a 16:9 menu with no subpicture at all (such menu is very easy to make, let the selected area be a rectangle, ie a picture or a rectangularly framed words). The blank, white (or black) subpicture "background" can be appropriately shown in both the new widescreen and old 4:3 TV.
If everyone else can author with scenarist 2.7 the matching 16:9 menu, it may be very much my own problem apart from the rest of all other scenarist users.

[mpucoder]

I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but the thought of some young mind getting boolean arithmetic scrambled in his head was too much.
Boolean arithmetic basic elements are AND and OR. AND is also known as Logical Product or Bitwise multiply. It is the same as in normal arithmetic, 1*1=1. OR is also known as logical sum, or bitwise add. It differs from normal arithmetic, if either operand is 1 then the sum is 1.
A third boolean operator is usually implemented as a combination of AND and OR. It's called XOR or Logical Difference, bitwise subtract. If either, but not both, operand is 1, the result is 1. If both operands are 0 or 1 the result is 0. (hence the name, logical difference, the result is one if the operands are different)

In line 3 of the example it says:
3:Or GPRM0, GPRM1 (do the bitwise and operation)
This is incorrect, bitwise and is done with AND (why would it be otherwise?)

What is described as "bitwise sum" and "bitwise extraction" is, in fact, the same thing as the example, logical product, or AND.

Now to switch out of boolean arithmetic and into computer programming. This whole process is called a "masked compare". First you mask off the relevant bits, then compare the result to some value.
The simplest way in vmi is:
mov gprm0, sprm14
and gprm0, 768
if (gprm0 == 512) JumpTT

[Clown shoes]

Please excuse me if I am wrong here Paul but I think you may have incorrectly followed some of the advice provided, if you are not getting the desired menu ratios displayed in Scenarist 2.7. I have used both the guide provided on Sonic's website mentioned by Evanesco and Dan's guide to creating pan and scan menus. They both definatly work. This may seem like a silly thing to say but could it not be your playback settings, ie; are you definatly checking the letterbox version on a 4.3 tv as I know that on my widescreen tv, the 4.3 mode incorrectly displays the subpics! If all else fails Dan's pan and scan advice is surely the best way to go, and as he previously mentioned this is the way the Hollywood display the majority of there DVDs, not 4.3. In any case paul, do not give up. As with most things in the poorly documented Scenarist, it is bound to be a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees and I am sure you will kick yourself once you have cracked it. Good luck.

Clown Shoes

[drpaulng]

Thank you,
The simulation window in scenarist showed that I am correct in authoring the 16:9 menu whether I place the letterbox_subpicture at first or the second track. Everything is matching in both letterbox and normal form of the 16:9 menu when being played in the simulation window. However, when the DVD was burned and placed in a DVD Player set for a 4:3 TV...things went wrong. People with 4:3 TV can get their DVD players set with "4:3 letterbox", "4:3 pan/scan", and "16:9 widescreen". The widescreen display mode is not set for a 4:3 TV because it would cause distortion of image (taller, relatively). My argument is not the methods that are wrong (at least it is OK in the simulation window), it is the final result that is wrong. With my experience seeing that so many Hollywood DVD were authored with 4:3 menu, my conclusion is reasonable to say that there is a bug in scenarist.

I know there is a syntax error on the first bitwise logic example: I discovered the specific syntax should be like this (direct copy from the scenarist manual):

Bitwise Product Assigns to the GPRM the result of a bitwise AND compare between a specified value and GPRM value, two GPRM values, or a GPRM value and SPRM value.

Bitwise Sum Assigns to the GPRM the result of a bitwise OR compare between a specified value and GPRM value, two GPRM values, or a GPRM value and SPRM value.

Exclusive Or Assigns to the GPRM the result of a bitwise XOR compare between a specified value and GPRM value, two GPRM values, or a GPRM value and SPRM value.

In short:
AND = Bitwise Product
OR = Bitwise sum
XOR = Exclusive Or

bit8-bit9 current video mode
0=normal, (0000000000000000) decimal = 0
1=pan/scan, (0000000100000000) decimal = 256
2=letterbox, (0000001000000000) decimal = 512
3=reserved, (0000001100000000) decimal = 768

CORRECTION:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (SPRM14 value)
0000001100000000 (768 is the mask for bit8-bit9)
---------------------------------------
000000XX00000000 (bitwise product) <----NOT BITWISE SUM

Ref:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1563.asp

This syntax is very different from what I previous thought of (I thought that Bitwise sum = AND). What I learn from here is that specific computer syntax should be read carefully, "sum" could be an "AND" in everyday words, but it's the computer world! The reference article does not tell me "bitwise and" is "bitwise sum", but I just thought intuitively from my everyday world language instead of computer syntax. Sorry that I made such a mistake. I've never written any computer program myself. Maybe from now on, this is a good start.

Thanks a lot for mpucoder's correction (Finally someone turns out to help the poor me who was helpless for 1 week. I love the forum more and more now.)By the way, I am not young, though I've got a "young mind" to learn from scratch. Thank you.

I'll try to correct my conclusion after some more experiments these few days. So, the discussion should go on...

[Clown shoes]

Paul, I'm not really sure but I may have an answer. I think it may be the preview window that is causing your problems. I recall having the opposite problem. ie the second highlight stream seemed out of position in the preview window, but when burned to disc, displayed perfectly on a television. Surely this reasoning could apply to your problem. Create the second overlay in photoshop using this guide (http://cs.sonic.com/scripts/texcel/..._Menus_Scen.pdf) to get the correct dimensions. When adding it to your project, if the preview window incorrectly displays it, ignore this and try a test burn anyway. Fingers crossed this will work. Good luck once more Paul.

Clown Shoes

[drpaulng]

Clown shoes,
You are very kind indeed, but the link is dead. Is it the same like Evanesco's link above?

I have found what Dan mentioned, that most of the Hollywood 16:9 menu are actually PAN/SCAN menu is true. However, it makes no big difference when I still get the subpicture mismatch in the PAN/SCAN menu. Everything is all right in the Scenarist simulation window for the PAN/SCAN method, but the same problem arises exactly like what I did for the 16:9 menu (mismatch in the real world).

My problem is not that I did not follow the rule. DVD Menu Studio can help us generate the whole script with corresponding subpictues. I think most of you should have found it much easier than following the sonic.pdf guide. By importing the script made from DVD Menu Studio, if you do test them all right in the real world, then, it must be my own problem.

Maybe I should try to change my Windows XP to English language version (I am using Traditional Chinese Language version).

[Clown shoes]

Sorry Paul try this;

http://cs.sonic.com/scripts/texcel/swise/TxSwDownload/e2f302d0e2f302dce2f302dde2f30183/Multi_Aspect_Menus_Scen.pdf

The point I was trying to make was that it may be the simulation window that is giving you problems. All I know is that my 2nd stream looked completely wrong in the simulation, but perfect on the tv screen. Are you setting your highlights by eye, or are you using a system to calculate the correct position. Also when you import the menu from DVD studio does it look right in the simulation window straight away, or do you need to make any alterations to get it right?
Anyway, let me know how it goes.

Clown Shoes

[drpaulng]

DaRat,
Thank you for your concern. I have downloaded your project file for testing. Although your work has something wrong within, it is very inspiring when I saw that the subpicture is "right". The PAN/SCAN subpicture is rightly displayed while the menu picuture is wrong, why? you set it for letterbox(should be pan/scan).

I remember you told me to make the subpicture by doing firstly "New/Subpicture stream" and then drag the appropriate subpicture to the Track Editor. So, I made a new project with the same material from you but I did it by setting the default settings to "Still/4:3 (Pan-scan)". I usaually drag all the materials directly to the Track Editor but this time I did it by clicking "New/Subpicture stream" first and then drag the appropriate subpicture later.

Guess what happened?
All my previous works were in futile, BUT now are right!
The KEY is:
(1)New/Subpicture stream, then press "W" or "P" for widescreen or Pan/Scan subpicture setting.
(2)drag the appropriate subpicture to the newly made empty stream track.
(Experiment with 1st track as "PAN/SCAN"; 2nd track as "Widescreen" = OK)
(Experiment with 1st track as "Widescreen"; 2nd track as "PAN/SCAN" = OK)


The wrong way I did previously:
(1)drag the appropriate subpicture directly to the Track Editor window.

What's wrong?
The simulation window shows the same result but after burning to the DVD, there is the mismatch of switching to 4:3 TV when I did the authoring the old way.
I don't know what really happens underlying the procedure which apparently shows the same during the simulation. However, in the real world, it happens that the 2-step method is the only way to the goal.

CONCLUSION:
MY PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED. To some scenarist users who have the same problem: Scenarist has very subtle rules that cannot be seen clearly. So, follow the steps very carefully. It's a painfual experience messing around without any idea what's wrong.

By the way, I have also learned the SPRM/GPRM programing during the course of this discussion. I did not find much discussion on the CONDITIONAL JUMP in this forum. I hope people can contribute more on this subject. The DVD Maestro manual has a brief example on the counter setting. The CONDITIONAL JUMP is the core of advanced DVD authoring. I think "TENDER LOVING CARE" by Aftermath is the model DVD for interactive movie that utilizes many of the CONDITIONAL JUMP logic to react after different combination of conditions activated by the watcher. A game-movie can be authored with these logics once we can get hold of them.

[drpaulng]

Thank you so much for everyone who contributed on this discussion. I'd like to make a very deep bow to you.

At the end of the discussion, I'd like to make a final statement about the problem I encountered:
FAILURE in making 16:9 menu for a DVD Player set to the 4:3 letter box display mode (for watch in a 4:3 TV). The subpicture overlay is mismatching albeit shown to be all right in the simulation window. Dan has shown us the Hollywood way of making 16:9 menu and DaRat suggested the step by step method following the Scenarist workflow, SurDrifter suggested placing the letterbox_subpicture first...Everyone does he's own right to tell me the right method BUT I still did not get to the goal until I finally followed DaRat's suggestion: Follow the Scenarist Workflow

The Scenarist manual tells everyone to author with certain steps of proper workflow beginning from the DATA EDITOR -> TRACK EDITOR -> SCENARIO EDITOR -> LAYOUT EDITOR which I simply ignored and worked directly from the SCENARIO(3rd step) OR TRACK(second step) EDITOR jumping the first step. THIS is the KEY of my failure. Although Scenarist can simultaneously do the DATA registry when the source materials are dragged into the SCENARIO EDITOR, something underlying is "not right" and this is however, "apparently right" until my problem showed up with very subtle clue of the cause.

When we drag any material into the DATA EDITOR, everything is now pre-defined for the next step, eg 4:3 Pan/Scan/16:9 still picture; subpciture with/without Force Start, picture encoding bitrate...once they are set, you cannot change their data property by re-setting the "default setting". The default setting will only affect the next materials being dragged into the DATA EDITOR.

NOW I'd like to thank you all for the patience. I now follow DaRat's suggestion to do things the right way (compliant to Scenarist's workflow)...adopt Dan's method of PAN/SCAN menu making instead of the letterbox menu, and I'd like to tell SurfDrifter that the order of letterbox_picture whether or not being placed at first or second does not affect the final result if we follow the proper workflow. Evanesco suggested using DVD Menu Studio...but I still failed to make the right menu with the script imported to Scenarist...maybe we should use the generated materials and author it with the proper workflow. Finally, I'd like to thank Clown shoes for his suggestion to ignore the simulation window. I'd like to tell you that the simulation sometimes goes off (mismatch) when you switch fast between the letterbox/full or pan-scan/full display modes (one time matching and sometimes (don't know when) mismatched). If people still got the same problem on this 16:9 menu subpicture mismatching issue. I'd say, FOLLOW THE SCENARIST'S WORKFLOW, that's it.